What makes the best monk in your eyes? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Superstar

2011-05-16, 04:16 PM

Gnaeus

2011-05-16, 04:21 PM

I've been wondering. How can you make a useful monk? How can you make an awesome monk. (gonna put personal opinion next to or under questions)

What class combination do you think MAKES the monk a serious threat?

Unarmed Swordsage or Talashtora.

gorfnab

2011-05-16, 04:23 PM

I've been wondering. How can you make a useful monk? How can you make an awesome monk. (gonna put personal opinion next to or under questions)

Unarmed Swordsage.

Edit: Swordsaged!

Curmudgeon

2011-05-16, 04:23 PM

Lateral

2011-05-16, 04:26 PM

Unarmed Swordsage, Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior X with Tashalatora, or Cleric/ Sacred Fist. All of them are far better than pretty much any monk.

Madcrafter

2011-05-16, 04:44 PM

Monk/warlock/hellfire warlock/binder with eldritch claws feat. I had one of these in the last game I ran. He could solo monsters of a CR a few higher than himself in a round with no effort. Had the option of fighting at a range if needed, and could fly. (My group plays high power, which is sort of odd since we always play eberron)

Marnath

2011-05-16, 04:45 PM

Never choose a race, class, or feat when you can solve the problem with gp. Don't pick a race just to get wings; buy a Feathered Wings graft instead. Don't dip into Kensai just to add magic to your unarmed strikes; buy a Necklace of Natural Attacks instead. Don't squander a feat on Superior Unarmed Strike for unarmed damage as if you were 4 Monk levels higher; buy a Monk's Belt for unarmed damage as if you were 5 Monk levels higher instead.

Oh yes, since you can totally just wander down to the magic mart and get everything you want in every campaign.:smallannoyed:

To say nothing of WBL, and how you're wasting it on things you could get for free from class levels.

holywhippet

2011-05-16, 04:47 PM

Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist. Full BAB and 3/4 spellcasting progression. Monk and Cleric synergise very well since both benefit from high WIS. Throw some of the clerics magical buffs on yourself and you get a very strong combat type.

Tokiko Mima

2011-05-16, 04:52 PM

I made a really cool E6 gestalt monk. It was Warlock 6 // Crusader 1 / Monk 2 / UA Swordsage 2 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1, using Beast Strike and Eldritch Claw feats.

The point was to create a Fighting Game (e.g. Street Fighter/ Mortal Kombat) style monk. You have ranged blasts, moves to teleport you across the screen, and a very nice and flashy punch and kick.

In my eyes, the best monks contain 2 levels of the PHB Monk class, or less.

Jude_H

2011-05-16, 04:55 PM

OA Shaman with Travel and Hero domains nails it. D&D magic does kung fu movies better than it does sword or sorcery.

FMArthur

2011-05-16, 05:07 PM

Fanged Ring is one of the best Monk (or unarmed!) magic items, granting you Improved Natural Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike (redundant on Monks but not on Tashalatora builds that don't have any Monk levels) and the ability to deal 1 Con damage on a critical hit.

Other good Monk or monk items have already been described, the lowercase monk being those thematically and functionally similar to monks but not the actual Monk class. On classes...

Ardents make strong mystical monks with Tashalatora, having far more power points than a Psychic Warrior and more diverse power selection that advances in level at the psion rate (but not on any one Ardent, who must chose at +mantle levels what his small list of selectable powers is).

Psychic Warriors are generally a bit more martial though, with better HD and tons of bonus feats. Both Psywar and Ardent are Wisdom-based casters, so it's nice to have that on AC as well.

Soulknives can take Reshape Mind Blade (unarmed strike) and the Tashalatora line to enhance their unarmed strike as a Mind Blade and advance unarmed damage as well. Even the combined abilities of Monk and Soulknife aren't spectacular, but it's easy and kind and works out nicely. The bonus feats you can replace Psychic Strike with IMO make it a little more appealing than Monk/Kensai, comes online earlier and doesn't take days and experience sacrifices to improve.

Cleric or Archivist / Monk multiclass builds are possibly the most effective, but it feels buying a pickup truck and some rope to make your wheelbarrow go faster.

Ryu_Bonkosi

2011-05-16, 05:14 PM

Unearthed Arcana Fighting Styles, Exemplars of Evil Invisible Fist and a 2 level Monk dip, so sweet that it almost rots your teeth. But then you stare at the average BAB progression and you cry for the loss of that one point.

Veyr

2011-05-16, 05:16 PM

Unarmed Swordsage or Talashtora.
This. Though, I'm going to be nit-picky and point out that it's "Tashalatora". Also, a Swordsage need not actually be Unarmed to make a good Monk — Monk's don't have to use unarmed strikes, you know. A Monk's fists don't out-damage various options that a Swordsage has for a weapon until 8th level, and even at 20th it's only an average of +6.5 damage — more than offset by any enhancement(s) that is (are) adding at least +2d6 damage to your weapon attack.

But in general for 3.5, the fewer levels in the "Monk" class that you have, the better "monk" character you'll be.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-16, 05:19 PM

Oh yes, since you can totally just wander down to the magic mart and get everything you want in every campaign.:smallannoyed: Who said anything about a Magic MartTM? If you want something badly enough, it's worth a quest, I think.

To say nothing of WBL, and how you're wasting it on things you could get for free from class levels.
Those features from class levels aren't "free" unless they're giving you everything you need for the character, plus more. For instance, it takes 5 levels of Kensai plus something more than 1,000 XP to get your unarmed strike boosted to a +5 bonus. (The "something more" part is problematic, because even though you've only got a single unarmed attack, Kensai requires an XP expenditure for each part of your body you might ever want to use for a strike: 2 fists + 2 feet + 2 elbows + 2 knees + 2 hips + 1 head = 2,000 XP.) The Necklace of Natural Attacks would cost you 50,000 gp instead (or 45,000 gp if you put points into your Diplomacy class skill to Haggle), which you could swing by level 13 with standard treasure. The earliest you could get there with Monk->Kensai is Monk 7/Kensai 5 and then another 2,000 XP to be able to pay for your signature unarmed strike. Meanwhile a Monk 13 hits harder and more often, and moves faster.

TANSTAAFL

Superstar

2011-05-16, 05:53 PM

faceroll

2011-05-16, 05:55 PM

A vow of poverty.

holywhippet

2011-05-16, 06:37 PM

A vow of poverty.

For a low level only campaign yes. For high level campaigns it's kind of a bad idea. A lot of good improvements for monks come with a high price tag or market value. Monk belts and stat boosting items for example.

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 02:03 AM

Oh yes, since you can totally just wander down to the magic mart and get everything you want in every campaign.:smallannoyed:

To say nothing of WBL, and how you're wasting it on things you could get for free from class levels.

Oh yes, because this is a game without spells that tell the future, locate objects, or divine solutions to problems. Problems like where can I buy this item.

Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

Eldariel

2011-05-17, 02:09 AM

I've been wondering. How can you make a useful monk? How can you make an awesome monk. (gonna put personal opinion next to or under questions)

What race, makes the best monk?

To fix the monk's range issue? Dragonborn with wings.

What class combination do you think MAKES the monk a serious threat?

I've seen the monk/kensai route. I'd rather not use Vow of Poverty though. even if i don't take the vow, +10fists of random enchantments? Plus the ability to cut down a crap ton of arrows that might be coming at me? Sign me up!

Monk/eternal fist seemed like an interesting alternative. At the same time, not quite useful enough. Eternal fist genuinely gives me mixed feelings. I feel more like I'm bruce lee, rather than I'm actually capable of killing demons.

Dipping into magic seems to .. well if it's buffs that might work, but if I'm a monk I should be punching something... to death. (Personal love for monk, weapons are okay with me *the more you know*)

How about magic items/weapons? What is important to a monk?

If you're Bruce Lee, any kind of a Monk is the wrong class for you since Monks are 100% supernatural in D&D. They teleport, go ethereal, have ACF to go invisible and do all shorts of magical ****. If you want a pure facesmasher, you should look at Shou Disciple [Unapproachable East], or more relevantly Warblade [Tome of Battle] with the Superior Unarmed Strike-feat. That's yet another awesome thing about ToB; it produced a feat that gives anyone decent (not as good damage progression as a Monk's but it'll do) unarmed fighting capability making actual mundane asskickers doable.

Zaq

2011-05-17, 02:29 AM

Oh yes, since you can totally just wander down to the magic mart and get everything you want in every campaign.:smallannoyed:

Easy with that scorn, my friend.

A player points to an item published in this book or the Dungeon Masters Guide and asks, "Can I buy this?" The answer should usually be, "Yes."

So yeah, it's a safe default assumption that you should, in fact, be able to buy what you want with your WBL. That's kind of what it's for. Does it apply in every campaign? Of course not, but no rule applies in every campaign. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't make a few baseline assumptions based on, you know, what's in the books.

NecroRick

2011-05-17, 02:36 AM

Rather than go down the path of layering your fists in cheese, you could do one of those ridiculous exalted/console fighting game/Final Fantasy N where they use swords that are 2-3 foot wide and 10 foot long.

At low levels a Monk with a greaterthangreatsword, doing a flurry of blows with it... simply refluff one of the Eberron 'use X weapon as a monk weapon' feats.

For really grotesque Monk damage though, you've got to go psionic. For starters the Ectoplasmic dohickeys only work if you're psi.

Alternately, go ridiculous. A monk who transforms into a bear and then does flying kicks versus everything (and again, add the eberron feats to pump up your charge damage, for 'your charge damage' + 1d12 + 2d6. Add snap kick, circle kick and roundabout kick...

Do something whacky that appeals to your DM's sense of humour/style. Favour of the gods is better than any feat :D

Dual flurry falchions with improved crit ranges. With your sucky BAB you won't hit often, but everything will be a crit threat. Layer on some 'only happens when you get a crit' modifiers to the weapons. Give your seventeen attacks per round silly names: chopping celery (for the falchions), flying waterbuffalo (for the kickmaster) etc.

Above all, have fun.

Eldan

2011-05-17, 02:41 AM

Easy with that scorn, my friend.

So yeah, it's a safe default assumption that you should, in fact, be able to buy what you want with your WBL. That's kind of what it's for. Does it apply in every campaign? Of course not, but no rule applies in every campaign. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't make a few baseline assumptions based on, you know, what's in the books.

I dislike that idea, really. Even in large cities, I usually offer a limited selection of items. Yes, that includes Sigil. You can probably find a special item with some searching, but usually, they have to be either custom-made or found.

faceroll

2011-05-17, 02:54 AM

I dislike that idea, really. Even in large cities, I usually offer a limited selection of items. Yes, that includes Sigil. You can probably find a special item with some searching, but usually, they have to be either custom-made or found.

Or you, know, for the first 9 levels of the game (40% of it) where you usually don't have plane shift or teleport. Or for all those times you're in the field and don't have the time to go to town and purchase that item that provides exactly the solution to your current problem.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-17, 04:21 AM

That depends on what you mean by "monk." If I want something with unarmed, eastern flavor that can do Kung-Fu, I'd probably throw Fist of the Forest onto something silly. Should something do that as a base class, though? The unarmed part, certainly. The flavor part, honestly, doesn't matter to me.

The issue here is that a straight brawler is hard to do without going into natural attacks like a Totemist does or having to suck up monk or unarmed swordsage class levels.

Oh yes, since you can totally just wander down to the magic mart and get everything you want in every campaign.:smallannoyed:

To say nothing of WBL, and how you're wasting it on things you could get for free from class levels.

To be fair, those all do help a monk be a monk without having to invest a significant feature of a character on a thing like race.

Oh yes, because this is a game without spells that tell the future, locate objects, or divine solutions to problems. Problems like where can I buy this item.

Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

Doc Roc, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I think I love you.:smalltongue:

That quote is wonderful.

TroubleBrewing

2011-05-17, 06:41 AM

The best monk is a dead one.

You don't have to kill it yourself, it can't attempt to defend itself when you tell it how useless it is, and best of all, you get a free corpse!

The value of the corpse is only limited by your creativity.

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 07:55 AM

Doc Roc, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I think I love you.:smalltongue:

That quote is wonderful.

I'm quite flattered!

On the topics of monkz: Sacred fist is much under-rated, I think.

marcielle

2011-05-17, 08:13 AM

Also, a Swordsage need not actually be Unarmed to make a good Monk — Monk's don't have to use unarmed strikes, you know.

This is quite true. Look up legends of Condor Heroes or other martial novels like that(they have some in English comic form and they are quite good:smallbiggrin:). Monks use swords, staffs, spears and all kinds of weapons besides their fists. Normal, weapon-wielding Swordsages are actually closer to the eastern idea of a monk than the actual monk class. Traditional Shaolin uses unarmed combat for sudden defense and increasing self discipline. If a Shaolin monk wanted to kill something, he would use one of these: http://www.chinashaolintemple.com/data/2005/0821/article_64.htm
Personally my favourite is the 3-pronged sword and I've been trying to get it into my game as a special monk weapon.

The whole monks mainly use their fists thing is actually pretty wierd when seen from an easterners point of view.

Gnaeus

2011-05-17, 08:18 AM

This. Though, I'm going to be nit-picky and point out that it's "Tashalatora". .

You're right. Sorry. I hide in shame.

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 08:51 AM

You're right. Sorry. I hide in shame.

It's okay, I didn't even have to look it up, which is so much more shameful. :smalleek:

Veyr

2011-05-17, 08:58 AM

I'm with DocRoc there; I didn't look it up either.

I've also noticed that I've started being able to tell friends what page numbers things are on, without actually having the book. Tome of Battle's maneuver list starts on page 48; the Crusader's table is on 10, Swordsage's 16, and Warblade's 21; the feat table is on 30. Tome of Magic's Binder's class table is the bottom of page 12; the Warlock's is on the bottom of page... 10? of Complete Arcane. Oh, and the Binder feats start on page 72 of Tome of Magic. The Incarnum classes are on... I wanna say 19, 24, and 28 of Magic of Incarnum? I definitely knew that at one point.

EDIT: When I have time later, I'm going to check myself just for my own amusement/terror. I'm absolutely certain on the Tome of Battle stuff.

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 09:01 AM

Kaeso

2011-05-17, 09:03 AM

I'm kind of fond of the monk/sorc/enlightened fist with ascetic mage. It allows all monk features to be keyed off cha instead of wis, creating some synergy, and enlightened fists can deliver touch spells (and later ray spells) through unarmed full attacks (which is perfect if you can find some way to get pounce).

Veyr

2011-05-17, 09:05 AM

Oh, and the Artificer starts on page 28 of the Eberron Campaign Setting and its Infusion List is on page 103; the actual Infusion/Spell Descriptions start on page 110. The Symbionts are on page 305? Hah, you'd think that in particular I'd remember. Page 73 of Magic of Incarnum is either Alchemist Savant or Impure Prince, IIRC, while 37 is Daelkyr Half-blood... that book's symbionts are about page 150 or so?

It must be said that I do have a pretty good memory for this kind of thing. In high school I played so much Morrowind that I memorized Daedric without actually "trying" to do so.

Eldan

2011-05-17, 09:17 AM

The only page I know is the WBL table in the DMG.

Veyr

2011-05-17, 09:20 AM

Ah, page 135!

...yeah... this is probably not healthy.

Ason

2011-05-17, 09:21 AM

Well, it depends on how your DM reads the rules, but you could possibly choose changeling as your race and then take a few levels of Warshaper to make your natural/unarmed attacks have reach. However, there has been a ton of debate on the legality of taking that class using changeling to qualify (let's not derail the thread with that argument), so definitely ask that person before planning a whole build around the PrC.

You can also take Soul Eater (from Book of Vile Darkness, I believe) as a dip class to make your character drain levels from opponents whenever he touches them, but that seems a tad unfair and definitely not a classic monk ability. Additionally, you have to force your character through a lot of strange hoops to qualify for it (such as gaining the monstrous subtype), so it's mileage may vary. If your group is into heavy optimization (and if the DM lets you play a very evil character), it might help.

Telonius

2011-05-17, 09:46 AM

If i may, towards the kensai

Ye can only imbue one part of your natural weapon. Like kicking? Imbue your feet. Like punching etc.

I do agree with kensai not being ABSOLUTELY worth it, however you don't have to have +5 fists to touch the other enchantments available. Make your fists keen? SURE! Make your fists ... Dancing? Uhm... Maybe? I guess? Ghost touch etc. etc.

Wounding is a favorite of mine.

Monk does synergize fairly well with Kensai, though. Concentration, which fuels Power Surge, is on the Monk's class skill list. Power Surge makes up for 4 points of BAB.

Monk2/Cleric3/Sacred Fist10/Kensai5 would end up casting as a level 11 Cleric (6th-level spells are nothing to sneeze at), have unarmed damage as a level 16 Monk (assuming you have a Monk's Belt), and have 17 BAB. If you take the Travel domain, you'd have easy access to Travel Devotion. This has the benefit of being both very thematic to a wandering Monk, as well as giving him the option to actually use both his flurry of blows and his enhanced movement in the same round. It's not the most powerful build out there, but in a moderate optimization group it should help you hold your own.

Malkav

2011-05-17, 09:54 AM

Superior Unarmed Strike+Improved Natural Attack+Monk's Belt+Jotunbrun(sp)=Monk-sauce.

Edit:Snap kick, flying kick, powerful charge, greater powerful charge.

Kaeso

2011-05-17, 10:17 AM

Wounding is a favorite of mine.

Monk does synergize fairly well with Kensai, though. Concentration, which fuels Power Surge, is on the Monk's class skill list. Power Surge makes up for 4 points of BAB.

Monk2/Cleric3/Sacred Fist10/Kensai5 would end up casting as a level 11 Cleric (6th-level spells are nothing to sneeze at), have unarmed damage as a level 16 Monk (assuming you have a Monk's Belt), and have 17 BAB. If you take the Travel domain, you'd have easy access to Travel Devotion. This has the benefit of being both very thematic to a wandering Monk, as well as giving him the option to actually use both his flurry of blows and his enhanced movement in the same round. It's not the most powerful build out there, but in a moderate optimization group it should help you hold your own.

I'm not too sure about that build, a straight cleric with IUS and SUS would be better. Perhaps even a straight cleric with a monks belt.

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 10:21 AM

Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist 10/Windrider 5

BAB 18, CL 18, MonkL 18 with monk's belt && tattoo.

gallagher

2011-05-17, 10:26 AM

Monk/Wizard/Unseen Seer. it adds a little sneak to your attack

Greenish

2011-05-17, 10:31 AM

Monk/Wizard/Unseen Seer. it adds a little sneak to your attackNo, it doesn't. You need to have SA (or skirmish, or sudden strike) from some other source for Unseen Seer to advance, otherwise you gain no benefit from that class feature.

gallagher

2011-05-17, 10:43 AM

No, it doesn't. You need to have SA (or skirmish, or sudden strike) from some other source for Unseen Seer to advance, otherwise you gain no benefit from that class feature.

then monk2/spellthief1/wizard3/USS10/X4

get the master spellthief feat and you are good to go.

dextercorvia

2011-05-17, 10:45 AM

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 10:51 AM

then monk2/spellthief1/wizard3/USS10/X4

get the master spellthief feat and you are good to go.

Ugh, master spellthief. Only one of the most commonly debated feats around.

gallagher

2011-05-17, 10:53 AM

Ugh, master spellthief. Only one of the most commonly debated feats around.

let us not turn a monk thread into a Master Spellthief thread. instead, let us pretend that the OP's DM is nice, and even if he doesnt agree how well it works, is nice enough to let it happen

dextercorvia

2011-05-17, 10:53 AM

Ugh, master spellthief. Only one of the most commonly debated feats around.

Only for the purpose of stealing spells. Everything else is fairly straightforward. It's not really necessary to his build though, unless he was planning on stealing spells....

gallagher

2011-05-17, 11:05 AM

Only for the purpose of stealing spells. Everything else is fairly straightforward. It's not really necessary to his build though, unless he was planning on stealing spells....

the stealing spells part is mostly for sillies. i am picturing a monk doing an unarmed attack as a flick to someone's ear, having it be a stunning fist attack, and then stealing a spell.

talk about an irritating flick to the ear!

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-17, 11:07 AM

No, it doesn't. You need to have SA (or skirmish, or sudden strike) from some other source for Unseen Seer to advance, otherwise you gain no benefit from that class feature.

Debatable, actually, due to Hunter's Eye.:smallwink:

Telonius

2011-05-17, 11:07 AM

I'm not too sure about that build, a straight cleric with IUS and SUS would be better. Perhaps even a straight cleric with a monks belt.

A Wizard20 with a Monk's belt would be superior, too, but that's not what the OP is looking for.

braxsus

2011-05-17, 11:08 AM

What makes the best monk in your eyes?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one that you never play....

The idea in your head of how your monk should be, will always be better then actually flushing one out in RAW.

Better to just let the dream live in your mind and avoid disappointment

dextercorvia

2011-05-17, 11:12 AM

Debatable, actually, due to Hunter's Eye.:smallwink:

I actually looked into this a while back. USS requires that you choose an existing form of precision damage to advance. You can't retroactively apply USS when you get some later.

Kaeso

2011-05-17, 12:02 PM

A Wizard20 with a Monk's belt would be superior, too, but that's not what the OP is looking for.

Maybe you're right, but I doubt it. A wizard, unlike a cleric, has only half of the monks hd and a significantly worse BAB with no way to increase it (unlike a cleric with divine power)

dextercorvia

2011-05-17, 12:08 PM

Maybe you're right, but I doubt it. A wizard, unlike a cleric, has only half of the monks hd and a significantly worse BAB with no way to increase it (unlike a cleric with divine power)

This is a Wizard we are talking about. Hit points and BAB are immaterial.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-17, 12:17 PM

I actually looked into this a while back. USS requires that you choose an existing form of precision damage to advance. You can't retroactively apply USS when you get some later.

Fair enough, so the first +1d6 does nothing, but you could argue for the rest!:smalltongue:

Taelas

2011-05-17, 12:20 PM

Maybe you're right, but I doubt it. A wizard, unlike a cleric, has only half of the monks hd and a significantly worse BAB with no way to increase it (unlike a cleric with divine power)

Tenser's transformation. (It's a terrible spell, yes, but it gives full BAB.)

Tytalus

2011-05-17, 12:24 PM

Never choose a race, class, or feat when you can solve the problem with gp. Don't pick a race just to get wings; buy a Feathered Wings graft instead. Don't dip into Kensai just to add magic to your unarmed strikes; buy a Necklace of Natural Attacks instead. Don't squander a feat on Superior Unarmed Strike for unarmed damage as if you were 4 Monk levels higher; buy a Monk's Belt for unarmed damage as if you were 5 Monk levels higher instead.

While not a bad idea, that's a bit of an oversimplification, IMHO. Depending on the game, those might not be an option. Feathered Wings, for example, won't work in most campaigns.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 12:38 PM

Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist 10/Windrider 5

BAB 18, CL 18, MonkL 18 with monk's belt && tattoo.Where's Windrider from? The one in Masters of the Wild doesn't progress casting.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-17, 12:52 PM

Feathered Wings, for example, won't work in most campaigns.
Really? I've found them to be a mainstay of most D&D campaigns in which I've played and DMed, just as most Druids and Clerics tend to pick up a Monk's Belt (with a Wilding Clasp for the Druid), and everybody picks up a Heward's Handy Haversack. Some items are just too useful to resist.

Tytalus

2011-05-17, 01:08 PM

Really? I've found them to be a mainstay of most D&D campaigns in which I've played and DMed, just as most Druids and Clerics tend to pick up a Monk's Belt (with a Wilding Clasp for the Druid), and everybody picks up a Heward's Handy Haversack. Some items are just too useful to resist.

I see you tend to play in evil games, which I presume is the not most common kind.

The others are fine examples, but, of course, don't come with such a considerable drawback, either.

Tytalus

2011-05-17, 01:12 PM

Kensai requires an XP expenditure for each part of your body you might ever want to use for a strike: 2 fists + 2 feet + 2 elbows + 2 knees + 2 hips + 1 head = 2,000 XP.)

Form a purely mechanical point of view, that is not necessary. There is virtually no difference between a monk with two enchanted fists and another with the laundry list you present here. Except, of course, the second one spent way too many XP.

Doug Lampert

2011-05-17, 01:13 PM

Oh yes, because this is a game without spells that tell the future, locate objects, or divine solutions to problems. Problems like where can I buy this item.

Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

Equally to the point, somewhere there are brokers who BUY all the +2 crap your level 12 party sells because you've already got a +4 item of whatever.

They buy your 4,000-8,000 GP item for only 50% of nominal cost (20% in 4th edition), and then sell it for 100% of nominal cost (110%-140% in 4th edition). GOSH, think those guys MIGHT be doing some actual work for all that cash. And they can use the same methods to find customers. People willing to pay 4,000 GP for the item you just purchased for 2,000 GP are a valuable resource. Surely somewhere in the multiverse there's a merchant who's group includes a couple of level 13+ casters willing to spend otherwise unused spell slots for a few thousand gold for the group.

Telonius

2011-05-17, 01:17 PM

Really? I've found them to be a mainstay of most D&D campaigns in which I've played and DMed, just as most Druids and Clerics tend to pick up a Monk's Belt (with a Wilding Clasp for the Druid), and everybody picks up a Heward's Handy Haversack. Some items are just too useful to resist.

The -6 to charisma-based checks vs. non-evil characters can be pretty harsh.

Divide by Zero

2011-05-17, 01:32 PM

Rather than go down the path of layering your fists in cheese, you could do one of those ridiculous exalted/console fighting game/Final Fantasy N where they use swords that are 2-3 foot wide and 10 foot long.

How about my favorite Exalted weapon? http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Artifacts:Chainklaive

Doc Roc

2011-05-17, 01:54 PM

Where's Windrider from? The one in Masters of the Wild doesn't progress casting.

I'm thinking of the faerunian Full BAB full Casting divine class. I may have the name wrong.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-17, 02:10 PM

I see you tend to play in evil games, which I presume is the not most common kind.
No, I tend to play in neutral (uncommitted) alignment games, which is the most common kind. By the time characters can afford the cost of Fiendish Wings they're more likely than not to make that daily DC 15 Will save, so they'll only occasionally be pushed into making an evil act. This rarely results in alignment change. As Telonius noted, the real drawback is for Charisma-based checks. That's kept a couple of characters from using that graft, and they've had to look elsewhere to gain flight capability.

Tytalus

2011-05-17, 04:41 PM

No, I tend to play in neutral (uncommitted) alignment games, which is the most common kind.

A fair assumption, but nothing more. If you can support that claim, please provide the source.

By the time characters can afford the cost of Fiendish Wings they're more likely than not to make that daily DC 15 Will save, so they'll only occasionally be pushed into making an evil act. This rarely results in alignment change. As Telonius noted, the real drawback is for Charisma-based checks. That's kept a couple of characters from using that graft, and they've had to look elsewhere to gain flight capability.

I guess your gaming experience differs from mine then. A party with multiple characters, several of whom committing evil acts on occasion (not to mention pursuing fiendish items in the first place) wouldn't work in most of the groups I've played in or witnessed.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-17, 04:54 PM

A fair assumption, but nothing more. If you can support that claim, please provide the source.
It's one of the default assumptions in the 4th Edition D&D game, at least. From page 19 of that Player's Handbook:
Most people in the world, and plenty of player characters, haven’t signed up to play on any team—they’re unaligned. Picking and adhering to an alignment represents a distinct choice. Also see the excerpt here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20080602a).

Taelas

2011-05-17, 05:05 PM

Since Good is opposed to Evil and vice versa, and Neutral is not opposed to either, the majority of parties will average out to Neutral, given free alignment choices.

Ryu_Bonkosi

2011-05-17, 06:16 PM

Kensai requires an XP expenditure for each part of your body you might ever want to use for a strike: 2 fists + 2 feet + 2 elbows + 2 knees + 2 hips + 1 head = 2,000 XP.)

In regard to this could a Kensai choose his (Skin) as what he enchants? Seeing as he's using his skin to physically hit the people he's punching.

Malkav

2011-05-17, 06:34 PM

In regard to this could a Kensai choose his (Skin) as what he enchants? Seeing as he's using his skin to physically hit the people he's punching.

It says;
"The process for imbuing...natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost + 10% per natural weapon. For example, a...kensai...may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost."

Greenish

2011-05-17, 11:47 PM

I'm thinking of the faerunian Full BAB full Casting divine class. I may have the name wrong.Ah, I thought you might be thinking of Windwalker from Faiths and Pantheons. Excellent PrC, though the entry requirements are annoying if you're trying to get in early without losing caster levels.

Tytalus

2011-05-18, 08:31 AM

It's one of the default assumptions in the 4th Edition D&D game, at least. From page 19 of that Player's Handbook: Also see the excerpt here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20080602a).

Doesn't quite apply here (different edition, different alignment system, etc.). Even if it did, "many" still isn't "most".

Curmudgeon

2011-05-18, 08:42 AM

Doesn't quite apply here (different edition, different alignment system, etc.). Even if it did, "many" still isn't "most".
"Most people in the world ... haven’t signed up to play on any team—they’re unaligned." I don't see any use of the term "many". :smallconfused:

Tvtyrant

2011-05-18, 08:51 AM

"Most people in the world ... haven’t signed up to play on any team—they’re unaligned." I don't see any use of the term "many". :smallconfused:

I fail to see how the majority of games end up being neutral just because WOTC says so. There is a limit to where RAW can be applied.

I vote going Dungeoncrasher Fighter/Pouncing Barbarian and then getting knockdown and cleave. Then you bullrush charge the enemy into a wall, giving you a full round attack, a trip attempt and a massive amount of flat damage as well as getting to keep hitting people as part of the charge with cleave. Just do it all with your fists and call it a day :P

Curmudgeon

2011-05-18, 09:01 AM

I fail to see how the majority of games end up being neutral just because WOTC says so.
If they publish numerous campaign settings and game modules where most of the people (including important NPCs) are unaligned, and PCs want to do things like shop and rest without being rejected as fanatics, then most PCs will at least be able to coexist comfortably with that unaligned majority. It's no guarantee, of course, but it does tend to work out that way in my experience.

FMArthur

2011-05-18, 09:19 AM

Really the only alignment patterns I have observed between the six groups I've played with are:
Players mostly play Chaotic characters
Evil characters are sometimes disallowed, or frowned upon on account of the undesirability of interparty conflict and the reputation of evil characters played immaturely.
WotC can certainly dictate what most NPCs should be, but player characters depend on the players. Their statements on what the average party might be is in the same tier of rules-authority as their hilarious sidebar advice on how to "min max" TWF in the Rules Compendium, ie their personal opinions and assumptions (misguided or otherwise).

An item that attempts to assert control over its owner in Evil fashion is going to be disruptive or taken with great caution in a large enough number of groups that it is by no means a certainty and should never be a universal game assumption.

Tytalus

2011-05-19, 09:56 AM

I don't see any use of the term "many". :smallconfused:

My bad, it's "plenty" instead of "many", i.e., even less strong of a statement: "... plenty of player characters, haven’t signed up to play on any team."

We are discussing PCs, obviously, since they are what parties are made of. It doesn't really matter what the mindset of NPCs (or even players) is. Also, the latter WotC is not qualified to judge. Of course, even for PCs, guess is all they can do anyway, especially in the very first rulebook of a new system. In essence, I agree with FMArthur, who put it more eloquently in his post.

And again, completely different game and alignment system (4.0) than what we were actually discussing. Hardly supports the supposed fact you stated about 3.5 games.

And even if it was transferable to 3.5, it is, after all, "plenty", not "most" - which doesn't confirm your claim. As a friend of the RAW I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

If they publish numerous campaign settings and game modules where most of the people (including important NPCs) are unaligned, and PCs want to do things like shop and rest without being rejected as fanatics, then most PCs will at least be able to coexist comfortably with that unaligned majority. It's no guarantee, of course, but it does tend to work out that way in my experience.

I don't follow that argument, especially the apparent premise good/evil = fanatics in the eyes of unaligned neutral populace. I find it hard to take you serious here. Do you really think it takes much for a good/evil characters to "shop and rest without being rejected as fanatics" or "coexist comfortably" with the unaligned (wrong system again!) neutral majority? :smallconfused:

Hardly. That doesn't take much, especially if the good/evil PC is actually not a fanatic (in my experience, most aren't. YMMV). And even if they were: even barely clever fanatics can do that. In fact, that's a staple in story/fantasy/adventure/etc. design: the fanatic villain that nobody suspected of his fanaticism. Heck, 3.5 had the "Detect Alignment" line of spells/powers, which would have no use at all if it was indeed as easy as you make it sound to ascertain someone's alignment based on brief contact (rest, shop, etc.).

Seriously, I don't see it.

But to get back to your claim (that most games are neutral): can you actually support it (I'd love to see a study on that), or did you just go a little overboard by stating your opinion as a fact?

An item that attempts to assert control over its owner in Evil fashion is going to be disruptive or taken with great caution in a large enough number of groups that it is by no means a certainty and should never be a universal game assumption.

Right. And even in a neutral group, such an item would cause problems, IMHO. In fact, it seems that the repercussions of succumbing to the item are less severe if you are "good" than when you are "neutral". Ability damage is easily overcome with a spell or a staple magic item, while being forced to commit an evil act can have serious repercussions.

Mr.Smashy

2011-05-20, 08:15 AM

*THREAD DERAILED*

It is generally a bad Idea to place stock in the idea that all groups are the same.

If my groups DM told us to make evil characters, half of us would make neutral characters with a penchant for evil. All of us know that the 9 alignments cannot sum up the complexity of the human design. They are meant to be a guideline, providing vague descriptions of the alignments and leaving them open to interpretation.

*@ OP*

Unfortunately, nowadays the monk class is sub-par on a variety of levels. Generally only taken only for the feats, saves, and evasion.

If you are playing a Non-Op game, Monk is more fun than a barrel of macaques. Get items that increase your speed, and start off as a small race that gets good speed and other goodies. WF your fists, and start running at break neck speeds punching the crap out of things. I think it's possible, between spells and feats to get up to 150'/ round. Stupid fun shenanigans.