Warlock Prestige Classes?

[gallagher]

So i am playing a warlock in a campaign my friend is running, and i was wondering what good prestige classes there are, besides hellfire warlock, that progress invocations?

there is a small snag with any prestige class for this DM. if we prestige in his game, we have to complete the PrC before taking levels in any other class. with that in mind, i would like to refrain from PrCs that would be good only as a dip.

also, does uncanny trickster count for EB and Invocations?

[MeeposFire]

Yes trickster improves your EB and invocations by two in three levels.

[gallagher]

Yes trickster improves your EB and invocations by two in three levels.

are there any prestige classes similar to uncanny trickster, in that it will increase class abilities regardless of what class you entered with?

[TroubleBrewing]

Legacy Champion is another one.

[MeeposFire]

are there any prestige classes similar to uncanny trickster, in that it will increase class abilities regardless of what class you entered with?

Bloodlines do though they are not prestige classes (though they take up a similar amount of space).

Also unless you are trying to boost hellfire warlock then you can just use any prc that boosts arcane spells that you can qualify for to boost EB and invocations (you only need trickster, bloodlines, or legacy champ for improving things like hellfire not for standard warlcoks).

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There really aren't that many good Warlock classes. Your best options are the Warlock multicaster Prestige Classes in Complete Mage.

[TroubleBrewing]

There really aren't that many good Warlock classes. Your best options are the Warlock multicaster Prestige Classes in Complete Mage.

.... :smallconfused:

That's his best option?

[Jude_H]

It's not a combat powerhouse, but Drow of the Underdark's Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) has full invocation progression and a bunch of nifty utility options. No eldritch blast dice, though. :/

[Diarmuid]

Bloodlines do though they are not prestige classes (though they take up a similar amount of space).

Also unless you are trying to boost hellfire warlock then you can just use any prc that boosts arcane spells that you can qualify for to boost EB and invocations (you only need trickster, bloodlines, or legacy champ for improving things like hellfire not for standard warlcoks).

How does a PrC that advances arcane spellcasting help progress invocations and eldritch blast? Or is this just a houserule your group uses?

[faceroll]

Mindbender 1 is pretty useful, as it gets you telepathy and progresses blast and invocations.



How does a PrC that advances arcane spellcasting help progress invocations and eldritch blast? Or is this just a houserule your group uses?

Page 18, Complete Arcane, that's how.

[Diarmuid]

Well slap my butt and call my Susan.

I think I had skimmed over that first part as I knew the second part about not qualifying for PrC that need spellcasting.

Thanks.

[faceroll]

Well slap my butt and call my Susan.

I think I had skimmed over that first part as I knew the second part about not qualifying for PrC that need spellcasting.

Thanks.

I actually just ran into my bedroom and cracked open CArc before posting that, to double check. :smallbiggrin:

[Re'ozul]

By taking abjuration invocations, the Warlock can qualify for Initiate of the sevenfold Veil.

Though of course you need two feats that are dead weight to you.

[Jallorn]

Chameleon isn't a bad choice, for the floating feat that you can use for Extra Invocation and change the Invocation day by day.

[Cog]

By taking abjuration invocations, the Warlock can qualify for Initiate of the sevenfold Veil.
No, you can't. You can qualify for specific effects, such as Charm for Mindbender, but you don't meet more generic requirements such as "abjuration spells". See pages 71 and 72 of Complete Arcane.

[Re'ozul]

No, you can't. You can qualify for specific effects, such as Charm for Mindbender, but you don't meet more generic requirements such as "abjuration spells". See pages 71 and 72 of Complete Arcane.

Yeah I had read that. I just had considered the requirement to be specific enough to count.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hellfire Warlock is always a favorite. Best off, it's only a 3 level prestige class, so it's easy to finish. From there, go into Legacy Champion to advance HFW's abilities. Make sure to dip Binder for Nab to mitigate the con loss.

Congratulations, you're throwing around huge handfuls of d6's. All day long.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

.... :smallconfused:

That's his best option?

Yes. Those are the best options available, especially considering the circumstances under which he's playing. A 4 level dip in Sorcerer will give him 14th level Sorcerer casting and still allow him to gain a single dark invocation by 20th.

[gallagher]

is there a comprised list of the best PrCs that only require caster level? right now i am looking at virtuoso... and i am thinking that i am okay with losing some invocation levels if the class features were worth it.

and yeah, i already have the hellfire levels. my DM said no to legacy champion and the suchlike working for its progression

[NecroRick]

Hellfire Warlock is essentially useless until you get the third level in it OR you are a melee Warlock.

In order to qualify, you need the fire invocation that does 2 extra dice of damage from normal fire, and at level 1 you get two dice of damage from hellfire (for con damage).
At level 2, you get 4 dice of hellfire, but so does the normal fire - if it sets the target on fire it does +2d6 in the next round anyway. So Hellfire Warlock level 2 is _also_ a suckers bet (because of con damage).
So level 3 must be the break-even point, right? Right? 6d6 of firey goodness ... err... I mean badness! Well, for starters, your DM is quite within his rights to tell you to take your level of Binder and shove it. Same with the vest of "I take con damage but it doesn't do anything but I'm not immune, really".
On the other hand, a rod of restoring attributes is apparently perfectly fine (Wizards even suggests it).

But even so... Hellfire Warlock 3 is _still_ a suckers bet (for anyone except melee, seriously that melee retaliation is frickin' awesome).... because around about the time you qualify for Hellfire Warlock, you would get the Vitriolic Essence instead.

Vitriolic is the absolute King of damage dealing essences. Arguably the Dark Invocation that hands out negative levels like candy at christmas is even better, but even if you pick that Dark Invocation you _still_ want to have Vitriolic. Why? Simple - Vitriolic thumbs it's nose at spell resistance. Your Hellfire Warlock runs up against stuff with spell resistance and he'll be hiding, cowering behind the fighter's kilts.

And you can take the Fire essence at low levels, then swap it for something else (that is a lesser or least invocation) when you get Vitriolic later on.

[NecroRick]

.... :smallconfused:

That's his best option?

Not at all. His best option (if you want to go blaster) is a little something we like to call Escalation Mage (from Faiths of Eberron). Combine that with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level checks) and you are good to go.

Six levels of Escalation Mage gives:
7 empowers/day
7 quickens/day

You also get 7 lots of +1 caster level (Very meh on the Warlock) and 7 lots of "double the area of effect", which is handy with the very high level blast shapes, but a bit meh otherwise - and because of the caster level thing you might not be able to do it 'safely' except with the 1/day freebie.

With the quickens, you can set them on fire _and_ set them on acid too! (Vitriolic is also a damage over time in addition to the +2d6 it gives). Just don't quicken the one with the higher caster level! :D

If you have a decent Cha mod, it is a net gain on average hit points over Warlock, it is 6/6 spellcasting progression, it is shadow themed (fits in great with certain flavours of warlock), and as per the thread starters prestige limitations they are _also_ fluffed to get stroppy with you if you swap prestige classes without finishing it off first. What's not to like?

[MeeposFire]

Hellfire Warlock is essentially useless until you get the third level in it OR you are a melee Warlock.

In order to qualify, you need the fire invocation that does 2 extra dice of damage from normal fire, and at level 1 you get two dice of damage from hellfire (for con damage).
At level 2, you get 4 dice of hellfire, but so does the normal fire - if it sets the target on fire it does +2d6 in the next round anyway. So Hellfire Warlock level 2 is _also_ a suckers bet (because of con damage).
So level 3 must be the break-even point, right? Right? 6d6 of firey goodness ... err... I mean badness! Well, for starters, your DM is quite within his rights to tell you to take your level of Binder and shove it. Same with the vest of "I take con damage but it doesn't do anything but I'm not immune, really".
On the other hand, a rod of restoring attributes is apparently perfectly fine (Wizards even suggests it).

But even so... Hellfire Warlock 3 is _still_ a suckers bet (for anyone except melee, seriously that melee retaliation is frickin' awesome).... because around about the time you qualify for Hellfire Warlock, you would get the Vitriolic Essence instead.

Vitriolic is the absolute King of damage dealing essences. Arguably the Dark Invocation that hands out negative levels like candy at christmas is even better, but even if you pick that Dark Invocation you _still_ want to have Vitriolic. Why? Simple - Vitriolic thumbs it's nose at spell resistance. Your Hellfire Warlock runs up against stuff with spell resistance and he'll be hiding, cowering behind the fighter's kilts.

And you can take the Fire essence at low levels, then swap it for something else (that is a lesser or least invocation) when you get Vitriolic later on.

Hellfire is not an essence nor does it take the essence "slot".

[Person_Man]

I'd have to re-read the pre-reqs to see if the Warlock is capable of getting in, but off the top of my head I'd say that Anima Mage from Tome of Magic would be a fairly good option. You only need 1 level of Binder, and then it progresses your arcane side and your Binder vestiges. There's a natural Cha synergy between the two classes, and vestiges are generally helpful for any build.

[Diarmuid]

Hellfire is not an essence nor does it take the essence "slot".

+1

You have to have Brimstione Blast to qualify, but nothing says that Hellfire can only be applied EB's that use Brimstone. So when you have 3 levels of HFW and Greater essenses, then you can apply Hellfire to your Vitriolic Blast all day long.

While the continuous damage of Brimstone and Vitriolic may seem to be "on par" with the extra damage from Hellfire, dont forget that you also have to take into account doing that damage now, and potentially keeping the enemy from taking further actions.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'd have to re-read the pre-reqs to see if the Warlock is capable of getting in, but off the top of my head I'd say that Anima Mage from Tome of Magic would be a fairly good option. You only need 1 level of Binder, and then it progresses your arcane side and your Binder vestiges. There's a natural Cha synergy between the two classes, and vestiges are generally helpful for any build.

Warlock doesn't have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells; I think they write them that way in order to punish Sorcerers and Bards. The description even tells you to refer to the Warmage in Complete Arcane for a good arcane caster for entry into Anima Mage.

Warlocks can't have nice things. Otherwise, I would have agreed that this was a splendid idea.

[gallagher]

Warlock doesn't have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells; I think they write them that way in order to punish Sorcerers and Bards. The description even tells you to refer to the Warmage in Complete Arcane for a good arcane caster for entry into Anima Mage.

Warlocks can't have nice things. Otherwise, I would have agreed that this was a splendid idea.

i hate it that warmage is a good example for what to use to enter what sounds like a good prestige class, yet i cant enter it though i am clearly stronger than any warmage to have ever been created :P

[Viktyr Gehrig]

i hate it that warmage is a good example for what to use to enter what sounds like a good prestige class, yet i cant enter it though i am clearly stronger than any warmage to have ever been created :P

Yeah. I house rule that spell level prerequisites are generally replaced with the equivalent caster level for a Wizard or a Cleric. There are exceptions, of course, for classes that are specifically geared toward one class or another.

[faceroll]

I'd have to re-read the pre-reqs to see if the Warlock is capable of getting in, but off the top of my head I'd say that Anima Mage from Tome of Magic would be a fairly good option. You only need 1 level of Binder, and then it progresses your arcane side and your Binder vestiges. There's a natural Cha synergy between the two classes, and vestiges are generally helpful for any build.

The fluff is pretty cool too. All about making dark pacts for power. Does Anima Mage help with metamagic and being a 'lock? Cause I don't think it would (what with having SLAs and not spells).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hellfire Warlock is essentially useless until you get the third level in it OR you are a melee Warlock. Know of what you speak of before opening your mouth and proving yourself a fool.


In order to qualify, you need the fire invocation Incorrect. You need either Hellrime OR Brimstone blast. So either cold or fire. True, it's an investment of an invocation which is otherwise worthless, but the extra damage output is worth it.


that does 2 extra dice of damage from normal fire, and at level 1 you get two dice of damage from hellfire (for con damage).
At level 2, you get 4 dice of hellfire, but so does the normal fire - if it sets the target on fire it does +2d6 in the next round anyway. So Hellfire Warlock level 2 is _also_ a suckers bet (because of con damage).
So level 3 must be the break-even point, right? Right? 6d6 of firey goodness ... err... I mean badness! Only you have LOTS of ways of mitigating stat damage, so it's not as big a sucker's bet as you think

Well, for starters, your DM is quite within his rights to tell you to take your level of Binder and shove it. Same with the vest of "I take con damage but it doesn't do anything but I'm not immune, really".
On the other hand, a rod of restoring attributes is apparently perfectly fine (Wizards even suggests it). Only the Binder does exactly what the wand of lesser restoration does, but for free. It restores one point of stat damage per round. Period. Just like you had used aforementioned wand. So YES, it DOES function perfectly.

I will admit that the Strongheart Vest is more open to debate, but Nab is 100% legit.


But even so... Hellfire Warlock 3 is _still_ a suckers bet (for anyone except melee, seriously that melee retaliation is frickin' awesome).... because around about the time you qualify for Hellfire Warlock, you would get the Vitriolic Essence instead. Oh, we're sorry, but that's not right. Vitriolic is a GREATER essence, meaning 11th level. Brimstone/Hellrime are LESSER, meaning 6th level. FURTHERMORE, HFW is a full-casting class, meaning the only invocation you loose is the prerequisite investment.


Vitriolic is the absolute King of damage dealing essences. Arguably the Dark Invocation that hands out negative levels like candy at christmas is even better, but even if you pick that Dark Invocation you _still_ want to have Vitriolic. Why? Simple - Vitriolic thumbs it's nose at spell resistance. Your Hellfire Warlock runs up against stuff with spell resistance and he'll be hiding, cowering behind the fighter's kilts. Right, and you can DO that... PLUS Hellfire.


And you can take the Fire essence at low levels, then swap it for something else (that is a lesser or least invocation) when you get Vitriolic later on. Only... not. Because doing so loses any benefit of the prestige class, because you no longer qualify for it.

HFW is a damage booster. Even taking the three levels of it is worth it, if you bind nab. Heck, applying metamagic to wands alone is dead useful, even without the bonus damage.

If he won't let you use Legacy Champion to boost HFW levels, then your next step is to dip into Cloistered cleric, and go into Eldritch Disciple.

Early Entry aside, three levels into Cleric, and you get some super-charged stuff.

First off, if you're Good, you get Healing Blast. So you are now healing allies for your EB amount. Since you've gotten +6d6, just from HFW, you're doing pretty damn spiffy with that.

Second off, Eldritch Spellweave. Apply an Eldritch Essence to any cleric spell, for free. Essences that might be handy are as follows:

* Nauseating Blast (fort save or be Nauseated)
* Hindering Blast (Will save or be Slowed)
* Bewitching Blast (Will save or be Confused)

Of course, because NONE of these change your damage 'flavor', you can apply them to any spell you want. So you could toss out a Dimensional Anchor with Hindering Blast applied, for both keeping them in place, AND Slowing them with the same shot.

Then, of course, you've got all the awesome synergy between ClericZilla and Glaivelock. Divine Power FTW.

[Grim Reader]

Nosomatic Chirurgeon.

Easy entry, good abilities. 4/5 casing advancement to apply to invocations and blast, with the lost level at the end. Plus, at level 1:

"Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked)]Pestilential Touch (Su): A chirurgeon develops the supernatural ability to channel spell energy into debilitating harm. This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single usage of any spell or spell-like ability to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower. (An inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in its name, such as inflict light wounds)."

The ability to cast spells, opening up a lot of doors!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nosomatic Chirurgeon.

Easy entry, good abilities. 4/5 casing advancement to apply to invocations and blast, with the lost level at the end. Plus, at level 1:

"Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked)]Pestilential Touch (Su): A chirurgeon develops the supernatural ability to channel spell energy into debilitating harm. This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single usage of any spell or spell-like ability to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower. (An inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in its name, such as inflict light wounds)."

The ability to cast spells, opening up a lot of doors!

While I personally love the PrC, it might not work for this particular individual for the following reasons:

* This is best as a one-level dip. Which is prohibited.
* Requires you to be a Dragonmarked Halfling.
* Requires feat and skill investment

If he's got 3 levels of HFW, he's already, minimum, 9th level. If he has to go all five levels, he won't have enough room on the backside to take advantage of suddenly being able to cast 'spell of x level'.

[sreservoir]

Nosomatic Chirurgeon.

Easy entry, good abilities. 4/5 casing advancement to apply to invocations and blast, with the lost level at the end. Plus, at level 1:

"Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked)]Pestilential Touch (Su): A chirurgeon develops the supernatural ability to channel spell energy into debilitating harm. This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single usage of any spell or spell-like ability to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower. (An inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in its name, such as inflict light wounds)."

The ability to cast spells, opening up a lot of doors!

source?

and losing a use of eldritch blast = you can do this at will, yes?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

source?

and losing a use of eldritch blast = you can do this at will, yes?

Dragonmarked.

And yes, unlimited uses of EB = unlimited uses of the inflict series.

[sreservoir]

of course, it's only real benefit is basically to hit multiple targets without aoe, and to heal undead.

wait, does this actually count as spellcasting, or just as being able to cast spells? and do they count as arcane, divine, or neither?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

of course, it's only real benefit is basically to hit multiple targets without aoe, and to heal undead.

wait, does this actually count as spellcasting, or just as being able to cast spells? and do they count as arcane, divine, or neither?

Yep, it counts as being able to cast spells, and they count as Arcane. Specifically, it counts as being able to cast spells of x level. Which gets them into all KINDS of PrC's they normally are unable to get into.

[Grim Reader]

And normally without the loss of EB etc. progression. Not in this case though. Text specifically states that it does not heal undead. On the positive side, isn't there a feat somewhere that makes the casting of Inflicts a swift action?

[sreservoir]

so, what prcs require spellcasting and have useful class features that doesn't actually require spells?

how does dipping incantatrix sound!

[Cog]

so, what prcs require spellcasting and have useful class features that doesn't actually require spells?
You probably want to look at spell level requirements rather than spellcasting level requirements. The definition of the latter term is just a little bit fuzzy, and in this case might refer only to your Nosomatic level since that's the class that actually gives you access to spellcasting.


how does dipping incantatrix sound!
A Warlock, even with Nosomatic, would have very little to gain from Incantatrix since most of its abilities would only apply to Inflict spells and not the SLAs. Then again, with sufficient metamagic atop, that might not be much of a problem after all...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You probably want to look at spell level requirements rather than spellcasting level requirements. The definition of the latter term is just a little bit fuzzy, and in this case might refer only to your Nosomatic level since that's the class that actually gives you access to spellcasting. Actually, you don't even NEED Nosomatic for things with Spellcasting level, since Warlocks are considered to be a spellcasting class. That's how they get in stuff like Alienist or Mindbender.



A Warlock, even with Nosomatic, would have very little to gain from Incantatrix since most of its abilities would only apply to Inflict spells and not the SLAs. Then again, with sufficient metamagic atop, that might not be much of a problem after all...
Too feat intensive, though. If you're gonna do that, might as well just go whole hog with Wizard.

[Cog]

Actually, you don't even NEED Nosomatic for things with Spellcasting level, since Warlocks are considered to be a spellcasting class. That's how they get in stuff like Alienist or Mindbender.
No, they aren't. Caster level is distinct from Spellcaster level. Warlocks have the former but not the latter.


Too feat intensive, though. If you're gonna do that, might as well just go whole hog with Wizard.
On the other hand, it's a way to use Incantatrix while still pretending you're playing the same game that everybody else is.

[MeeposFire]

Nosmatic also gives you adept spells if I remember correctly (I think it says that if you do not have spell casting then you get to cast adept spells and warlocks don't cast spells...well don't expect the DM to always let it fly though it aint that strong anyway).

[Cog]

Nosmatic also gives you adept spells if I remember correctly (I think it says that if you do not have spell casting then you get to cast adept spells and warlocks don't cast spells...well don't expect the DM to always let it fly though it aint that strong anyway).
That looks accurate to me too. Might allow entry to a theurge build...

[The Rabbler]

I'd like to re-point out that because Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil specifically requires 5 abjuration spells, warlocks can indeed meet this criteria. It's extremely costly to them (5 invocations), but they can enter the PrC.

[MeeposFire]

Warlocks don't get spells so if it requires spells of any sort it does not count. That also applies to specific spells such as charm person like in the mind bender instance, which is why mindbender specifically says that the warlock can get in on its invocation because if it did not say that then the warlock would be out of luck.

[The Rabbler]

Warlocks don't get spells so if it requires spells of any sort it does not count. That also applies to specific spells such as charm person like in the mind bender instance, which is why mindbender specifically says that the warlock can get in on its invocation because if it did not say that then the warlock would be out of luck.

By my understanding, because many invocations act exactly like spells, those that do are also considered spells for the purposes of entering PrCs, but only when there is a specific number/type of spells required for entry. For example: a warlock can enter Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil by using 5 invocations to get dispel-like invocations and this'll work because each of those dispel-like invocations directly reference dispel. But, this doesn't allow a warlock to cast spells of that level, so entering any PrC with the requirement of "able to cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher" would be out of the reach of a warlock because he/she can't cast spells of that level; rather he/she can cast a spell of that level.

[MeeposFire]

Your right I was thinking artificers.

[Cog]

By my understanding, because many invocations act exactly like spells, those that do are also considered spells for the purposes of entering PrCs, but only when there is a specific number/type of spells required for entry.
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. You can replicate specific effects; if a PrC asks for Charm, you can do that, or if it asks for Shatter you can do that. "Five abjuration spells" is still a spell requirement, not an effect requirement, and Warlocks cannot qualify for spell level requirements. The "Abjuration" requirement is an additional requirement, and cannot possibly make the the prerequisite easier to meet.

[HugeC]

Read the bit about "Warlocks & Prestige Classes" in Complete Arcane. By my reading, The Rabbler is correct.

[dextercorvia]

It's not accurately represented in that discussion. It is neither a specific spell requirement, nor a spells of X level requirement. In some ways it is both. My reading is that since they put the spell level in there, it leans more in that direction, and isn't available to Warlocks.

[Cog]

Read the bit about "Warlocks & Prestige Classes" in Complete Arcane. By my reading, The Rabbler is correct.
I have. As I noted earlier in this thread, page 72 of Complete Arcane goes into the most detail on this. The phrasing of Iot7V's requirements is merely an additional condition on top of the "spellcasting level" requirements and is not phrased at all like the "specific spell" requirement.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlocks don't get spells so if it requires spells of any sort it does not count. That also applies to specific spells such as charm person like in the mind bender instance, which is why mindbender specifically says that the warlock can get in on its invocation because if it did not say that then the warlock would be out of luck.

It has no spellcasting requirements at all. It simply requires you to be a Halfling with a Dragonmark.

However, it does not grant you Adept casting. Instead, it advances your invocation use. Which is in every way superior, so why question a good thing?

[Cog]

However, it does not grant you Adept casting. Instead, it advances your invocation use. Which is in every way superior, so why question a good thing?
Actually, it does. "If you have no levels in any spellcasting class," you gain adept casting for the first four levels of Nosomatic. While Warlock benefits from +spellcasting level advancement in PrCs, that's because it has a specific exception allowing it to do so - it is not actually a spellcasting class. At each of the first four levels of Nosomatic, you both gain a level of Warlock invoking and a level of Adept casting.

I'd say this is obviously an unintended effect, but as MeeposFire pointed out, it's not really that strong anyway. Mostly what it does is give you some wand access without the need for UMD checks; those couple first-level spells are going to be nearly irrelevant by that point.

[MeeposFire]

It has no spellcasting requirements at all. It simply requires you to be a Halfling with a Dragonmark.

However, it does not grant you Adept casting. Instead, it advances your invocation use. Which is in every way superior, so why question a good thing?

That thing you quoted was not a discussion on nosomatic chirurgeon. That was a discussion on whether a warlock can get into Iot7V. I was wrong by the way of the specific spell requirements being allowed by warlocks (but only specific spells).

However under spellcasting in nosomatic chirurgeon it says it gives you additional casting for your spells. As we know this is fine for warlock (and I never said otherwise). In addition if you do not have any levels in a spellcasting class (and warlocks are not a spellcasting class) then you get to cast adept spells using the adept list. I am saying that you technically get both with a warlock not just one or the other. It is even better than you state.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, it does. "If you have no levels in any spellcasting class," you gain adept casting for the first four levels of Nosomatic. While Warlock benefits from +spellcasting level advancement in PrCs, that's because it has a specific exception allowing it to do so - it is not actually a spellcasting class. At each of the first four levels of Nosomatic, you both gain a level of Warlock invoking and a level of Adept casting.

I'd say this is obviously an unintended effect, but as MeeposFire pointed out, it's not really that strong anyway. Mostly what it does is give you some wand access without the need for UMD checks; those couple first-level spells are going to be nearly irrelevant by that point.

Warlock is considered to be a spellcasting class, even though it doesn't cast spells.

[Cog]

Warlock is considered to be a spellcasting class, even though it doesn't cast spells.
Please read page 72 of Complete Arcane.

[HugeC]

I have. As I noted earlier in this thread, page 72 of Complete Arcane goes into the most detail on this. The phrasing of Iot7V's requirements is merely an additional condition on top of the "spellcasting level" requirements and is not phrased at all like the "specific spell" requirement.
Iot7V's requirement is, if you will, a "generic" specific spell requirement, in that it cares about spell's level and school, but not the name of the spell, unlike the example of a darkness requirement from page 72. Here's the relevant bit of text that comes just before that example:

A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge.
So, if the requirement for entry is "Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher", then pick spells that meet those requirements, duplicate their effects with your invocations, and you qualify.

[Cog]

Iot7V's requirement is, if you will, a "generic" specific spell requirement,
...Seriously?


...in that it cares about spell's level and school, but not the name of the spell, unlike the example of a darkness requirement from page 72.
Exactly. It is unlike the darkness requirement. It is like the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.


So, if the requirement for entry is "Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher", then pick spells that meet those requirements, duplicate their effects with your invocations, and you qualify.
The requirement is not based on a specific spell. You can't just decide to rewrite the PrC's requirements; you have to meet the requirements given. By your logic, if the requirement was, "Able to cast third level spells," you could choose two invocations that replicate third level spells and thereby qualify. We already know that you can't do that, though, as is specifically stated in the section before the one you're quoting.


As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations - not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

...Seriously?


Exactly. It is unlike the darkness requirement. It is like the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.


The requirement is not based on a specific spell. You can't just decide to rewrite the PrC's requirements; you have to meet the requirements given. By your logic, if the requirement was, "Able to cast third level spells," you could choose two invocations that replicate third level spells and thereby qualify. We already know that you can't do that, though, as is specifically stated in the section before the one you're quoting.

Unfortunately, it's not 'being able to cast 3rd level spells', it's 'able to cast five specific spells, one of which must be 4th level or higher'. So yes, it does work. Of course, doing so eats up nearly HALF of your Invocations Known for your character, most of which are largely wasted, so it's a HUGE hit to character usefulness, but you CAN do it.

[Divide by Zero]

But the warlock doesn't get an invocation of a 4th level spell. He gets an invocation of a spell that happens to be 4th level on the wiz/sor list, but there isn't anything inherently 4th level about that spell. Suppose a different class gets it as a 3rd level spell? Would it still be valid?

[NecroRick]

hey guys, thanks for the abuse. Let me address two points:

(1) The Hellfire Blast "is not an essence"

My primary source for the Hellfire Warlock is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3

If you have something that differs significantly, please provide citation.

This argument has two parts:

(i) The super-nitpicky response to the super-nitpicky "it doesn't say it's an essence, so it isn't" quibble.

Here goes: eldritch essences can _only_ be applied to eldritch blast. Per the holy RAW hellfire blast changes your eldritch blast into _something else_, and therefore eldritch essences cannot be applied to it.

(ii) The appeal to common sense, obvious interpretations

This part consists of two portions:

(alpha)

Without exception, every other modifier to the Eldritch Blast is either a shape or an essence.

(beta)

The wording of the abilities

Wizards site
(Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can ...)
... change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast.

Complete Arcane
... change your eldritch blast into a vitriolic blast
... change your eldritch blast into a sickening blast
... change your eldritch blast into an utterdark blast
... change your eldritch blast into a repelling blast
... change your eldritch blast into a noxious blast
... change your eldritch blast into a hellrime blast
... change your eldritch blast into a frightful blast
... change your eldritch blast into a bewitching blast
... change your eldritch blast into a beshadowed blast

The wording is identical. Now, the eagle eyed amongst you will object that the complete arcane essence invocations all come with the wording:

"This eldritch essence invocation"

whereas the hellfire blast doesn't explicitly use the word essence.

This is an appeal to logic, on the basis of "it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it tastes like a duck, it is on the menu of your local chinese restautrant" etc.

Why would it match the exact wording of changing the eldritch blast into some other kind of blast, if not to indicate that it is an essence?

(1b) in response to the explicit claim that Hellfire Blast can be stacked with other essences.

citation please. I'll accept FAQ, RAW, designer waffling on about intent, or errata.

---- the second point ----

(2) The level requirement for Vitriolic vs Lvl 3 Hellfire Warlock

This is pretty easy. As noted, Vitriolic is a greater essence, hence minimum requirement of level 11

(The following is based on the link above to the wizards site)

Minimum entry into Hellfire Warlock depends it's most restrictive requirement, which for the sake of discussion let's agree is the Knowledge (the planes) skill. The requirement is 12 ranks. You can fulfill that requirement at level 9 of (some other class).

Therefore, the earliest you can take Hellfire Warlock level 1 is Level 10.
Level 3 Hellfire Warlock is two higher than that.

10 + 2 = 12

Now... I'm just going to assert that 12 is bigger than 11. I'll leave the formal proof of that to someone else.

Suffice it to say, that yes, Vitriolic Blast is in fact a fair comparison to level 3 Hellfire Warlock, and it actually _favours_ the HW to make that comparison.

[NecroRick]

But the warlock doesn't get an invocation of a 4th level spell. He gets an invocation of a spell that happens to be 4th level on the wiz/sor list, but there isn't anything inherently 4th level about that spell. Suppose a different class gets it as a 3rd level spell? Would it still be valid?

It is so hard to figure out what prestiger classes that the Warlock qualifies for that even if you have the "true and correct" interpretation, your DM might have easily made a mistake and deny you entry based on a different reading.

For that reason unless the prestige class is explicitly mentioned as catering to Warlocks (e.g. the fluff and crunch on Escalation Mage) you are better off applying rule -1

Rule -1: (because of Rule: 0) players should ask the DM first before investing time and energy on a concept.

Pick a full caster prestige class, ask the DM. If he says no, pick another one and repeat. If he says no to pretty much everything not explicitly in Complete Arcane, pick one of the dual progression classes from Complete Mage (either Eldritch Disciple or Eldritch Theurge). Blow stuff up.

[Feytalist]

Just to throw in my 2c worth (and in my country, 2c is worth very very little, heh), invocations have spell-equivalent levels attached to them. This is mostly to determine interactions with spells, and to set DC's etc, but can't they also be regarded as "similar to a spell of level x"?

Although, as per the CA reading, Warlocks only qualify for PrC's with "caster level x" requirements, not for those with "able to cast level 3 spells" requirements.

Also, what exactly is the difference between "caster level x" and "spellcaster level x"?

[Cog]

Unfortunately, it's not 'being able to cast 3rd level spells', it's 'able to cast five specific spells, one of which must be 4th level or higher'.
If the requirement is for specific spells, you should be able to quote me which specific spells those are. I'll wait.


Of course, doing so eats up nearly HALF of your Invocations Known for your character, most of which are largely wasted, so it's a HUGE hit to character usefulness, but you CAN do it.
I haven't once argued to the "fairness" of it - I'm only pointing out that it's not strictly allowed. The point's irrelevant.
_ _ _ _


Here goes: eldritch essences can _only_ be applied to eldritch blast. Per the holy RAW hellfire blast changes your eldritch blast into _something else_, and therefore eldritch essences cannot be applied to it.

Example: Morthos, a 1st-level warlock, decides to make his eldritch blast attack into a frightful blast
You can apply both shapes and essences to an eldritch blast. However, applying the first changes the name. Therefore, it's attacks based on the ability eldritch blast, not the name, that can have shapes and essences applied.


Without exception, every other modifier to the Eldritch Blast is either a shape or an essence.
Actually, no. Quicken SLA. Mortalbane. Ability Focus. The list continues.


Why would it match the exact wording of changing the eldritch blast into some other kind of blast, if not to indicate that it is an essence?
That some text matches and some text does not is not an indication that the non-matching text is what should match. The "indication" is that you can modify your eldritch blast by taking Con damage, but they're making sure you know it's a choice so that you don't have to take the Con damage every time you make a blast attack. The indication is that it's a voluntary ability.


(1b) in response to the explicit claim that Hellfire Blast can be stacked with other essences.

citation please. I'll accept FAQ, RAW, designer waffling on about intent, or errata.
Citation for Hellfire Blast being an essence. I'll look at FAQ, RAW, designer waffling on about intent, or errata. You're the one suggesting a rules insertion. The burden of proof's on you.
_ _ _ _


Just to throw in my 2c worth (and in my country, 2c is worth very very little, heh), invocations have spell-equivalent levels attached to them. This is mostly to determine interactions with spells, and to set DC's etc, but can't they also be regarded as "similar to a spell of level x"?
No. Warlocks can produce spell ability effects but not spell level effects.

Think of it like a PrC that requires Haste. A first-level Trapsmith can get in, even though Haste is normally a third level spell, because for the Trapsmith it's a first level spell. However, he can't provide any third-level spells, so even though he can cast Haste, he can't enter a PrC that requires "third-level spells" or "the ability to cast at least one spell from the Transmutation school of at least third level".


Also, what exactly is the difference between "caster level x" and "spellcaster level x"?
Caster level is the level used to calculate effects of magical abilities: damage for Fireball, SR checks for Magic Missile, and the like. SLAs have always had this, as you can see in the Monster Manual.

Spellcaster level is the measure of one's ability to cast spells; actual spells, thus the prefix to the name. It essentially measures how far you are along the spells-per-day progression of a certain class.

[HugeC]

@Cog: You say tomato, I say warlocks can enter Iot7V. Let's call the whole thing off. :smallwink:

The fact is Iot7V's requirement is not "able to cast X level spells" nor is it "able to cast darkness," therefore it is subject to interpretation. You are of course welcome to your interpretation. I shall maintain that the PrC's requirement is trying to measure your ability to create abjuration effects, some of which are of a certain power, and therefore the text I quoted previously applies.

[Cog]

The fact is Iot7V's requirement is not "able to cast X level spells"...
The example on page 72 is one specific example given of a more general rule. The same rule excludes "spellcaster level" requirements, even though those are not always phrased as "able to cast X level spells", and there is no specific example given of such. It's not the precise order of words in the requirement that matters - it's whether those words amount to a spell level.


...nor is it "able to cast darkness," therefore it is subject to interpretation. You are of course welcome to your interpretation. I shall maintain that the PrC's requirement is trying to measure...
Trying? If you're arguing from intent, you're going to need to provide some sort of citation for that. It's entirely possible, and maybe you have some writer commentary or FAQ answer you're basing that on? If you don't, you can hardly use it as a basis for arguing that somebody else is wrong.


...your ability to create abjuration effects, some of which are of a certain power,
3.5 has a word for that kind of power. It's "level". When it comes to levels, Warlocks have three: class, caster, and invocation. Note that the latter is divided into four, not nine, and they're not numerically labeled.


...and therefore the text I quoted previously applies.
Your argument is that "spell... at least fourth level" is somehow not a spell level requirement, when it requires a level of spells. This is not tomayto/tomahto.

The critical thing here is that the Iot7V requirement is essentially two requirements in one: part of it is Abjuration effects, and part of it is spell level. I can see a case for Warlocks meeting the former - I'm not certain they do, but I'd probably allow it. Meeting one part of a two-clause requirement does not qualify you for both. Alternately, if it were phrased as "Five Abjurations, at least one of which is fourth level," that would probably work too. It's not, though. In the very same book that introduces the Warlock, in the same book that says Warlock do not cast spells, they put in a requirement that includes the restriction "spells... fourth level".

[skunk3]

Zombie thread lives!

I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents as well...

IMO the best prestige classes for Warlock by far are Eldritch Disciple (divine, IMO better than Theurge), Eldritch Theurge (arcane), Hellfire Warlock, and possibly Enlightened Spirit.*

(* Enlightened Spirit kinda sucks as a PrC, but if you are in a higher-level campaign, this PrC is just about the only way you can get access to more invocations - five in all - after you are an effective Warlock level of 20, aside from using feats on Extra Invocation... and the invocations you learn are of course retrainable just as anything else is. IMO Enlightened Spirit is worth if for a 1 level dip for sure. It is quite good for a gestalt choice as well.)

IMO, the best things about the HFW PrC aren't the extra damage dice to EB's... it's the other stuff, like being able to conjure up a shield that automatically strikes foes upon being hit in melee for your full EB damage + an additional 6D6 (+ any essence), and the ability Hellfire infusion, which lets you use your UMD skill to a much greater effect a number of times per day equal to your CHA modifier, which should be pretty high, but maybe not depending, as Warlocks can function pretty well with less than stellar stats. Those two abilities alone (in conjunction with advancing your invocations and base EB damage) make it worth it for me.

Furthermore, I don't see why you cannot retrain one of those crappy required invocations after you have your 3 levels of HFW. It doesn't say anything in the text about losing access to these abilities if you retrain, and typically when a condition prevents you from having access to class abilties, it is mentioned somewhere... like a cleric or paladin losing abilities, or a monk wearing armor, etc. Hellrime Blast and Brimstone blast are both pretty crappy anyway, at least in comparison to Vitriolic Blast.

As far as being able to apply essence and shape invocations on top of your hellfire blast, I don't see why not. I think it is implicit that a hellfire blast is still - for all intents and purposes - an eldritch blast, only infused with additional hellish power that comes at a cost. I doubt many DM's are going to argue that you cannot add essence or shape invocations on top of your hellfire blast, especially since warlocks aren't exactly OP to begin with. Only the most nitpicky of rules lawyers would bicker about this IMO. Not being able to add essence and shape invocations on top of an eldritch blast significantly reduces the appeal of the PrC, if you ask me.

(As a side note - we houseruled that I can modify Hellfire Warlock into a 'Heavensfire' Warlock that is basically exactly the same, only good-aligned, purely for flavor purposes since I am a CG Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple and will be taking Heavensfire later on...)

As far as Arcane Trickster / Legacy Champion cheese, I think it's just that - cheesy to the max. I wouldn't allow it if I was a DM. First of all, not only is it obviously not the intent of those PrC's, but also HFW is only a 3 level PrC and I don't see how you can actually gain in extra levels in something when you already have max levels in it. IMO the only benefit that would come from this cheesy workaround would be the continued progression of EB damage and invocations known - NOT any other benefit that comes from HFW. Therefore, there's no point in even attempting it.

As far as the Bind Vestige stuff goes, technically it *does* work, but most campaigns I've played in haven't allowed Incarnum stuff unless explicitly stated. There would have to be a DAMN GOOD reason for a PC to take a level(s) in that class in order to spam hellfire, and Incarnum would have to be a fairly commonplace thing in the setting of the campaign. I think that allowing all resources from all books (especially third party / homebrew stuff) leads to a lot of munchkiny min/maxing, which is really hard to balance as a DM unless the DM states from the start that you can use whatever you want as long as he gives the final approval. To me, the whole thing reeks of stinky cheese, but that's just me.

As far as non-PrC's go, I think that fighter is a great one for Warlocks because you can use Hideous Blow and/or hideous shot to imbue your weapons with the full damage of your EB... at least on the first attack of each round. Eldritch Claw from DM is also pretty sweet. For a gestalt campaign I'd go Warlock/Monk and basically beat the ever-lovin' crap out of people with my fists. You'd kinda be like a mix of Wolverine and Akuma from Street Fighter. :)

One last thing - It might be worth it to just stick with straight-up Warlock due to its ability to craft basically anything with the right feats. At higher levels this can save you a TON of gold. Also, the epic Warlock feats are pretty badass, and taking levels in PrCs will drastically slow you down when it comes to obtaining those. One feat lets you shoot 2 EB's per turn, and another lets you put 2 essences on every blast... Utterdark Blast and Vitriolic Blast, anyone? TWICE in one turn? There's other epic feats that are super tasty as well.

[Troacctid]

(* Enlightened Spirit kinda sucks as a PrC, but if you are in a higher-level campaign, this PrC is just about the only way you can get access to more invocations - five in all - after you are an effective Warlock level of 20, aside from using feats on Extra Invocation... and the invocations you learn are of course retrainable just as anything else is. IMO Enlightened Spirit is worth if for a 1 level dip for sure. It is quite good for a gestalt choice as well.)
If you're going past 20, it's way better to go straight Warlock for epic invocations.

Also, thread necromancy is frowned upon. You should start a new thread rather than raising the old one from the dead.