Build Advice - Rogue Archer

[Safety Sword]

Greetings Playground Oracles,
I'm interested in playing a "rogue" archer. Meaning, what I want from the character is the typical skill monkey archetype but with a bow.

I'm struggling to get past the basics for this build. Archery seems very feat intensive to be able to make it worth the trouble.

I think my best route to effective damage is probably to maximise sneak attack and then have some way to "reset" flatfooted condition on my opponents (ring of blinking or such?).

I've tried the Archery Handbook on BG and unfortunately the bit I need doesn't seem to be there (anymore?).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[myancey]

Are you set on going sneak attack?

You could make an archer using a rogue2, fighter- that would destroy people, and while you wouldn't have all the skill points a rogue gets..you could pick and choose some cool ones.

Use rogue 2 for the UA variant
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue in order to get 2 feats as a fighter. Then go straight fighter, getting another feat at 3, then another at 4.

There are so many good archery feats that you could make a powerfully cool character.

[Bovine Colonel]

Try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), maybe?

...Swordsaged.

[The Rabbler]

Have you considered a swift hunter build? cloistered cleric 1(grabbing travel domain)/scout 5/ranger 14 with the swift hunter feat allows you to get full skirmish progression, easy movement, and ranger casting. If you have access to the spell compendium, the ranger casting becomes much more appealing and would allow you to grab some very interesting archery spells.

That's all I got.

[myancey]

Use feats like:


Combat archery

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Combat_Archery

Dead eye--which has been errata'd to BAB +1

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Dead_Eye

Efficient Pull

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Efficient_Pull


Remember to take rapid shot, but avoid manyshot. I can't stand that feat.

[Eldariel]

Greetings Playground Oracles,
I'm interested in playing a "rogue" archer. Meaning, what I want from the character is the typical skill monkey archetype but with a bow.

I'm struggling to get past the basics for this build. Archery seems very feat intensive to be able to make it worth the trouble.

I think my best route to effective damage is probably to maximise sneak attack and then have some way to "reset" flatfooted condition on my opponents (ring of blinking or such?).

Yes, basically you need a way to trigger Sneak Attack consistently. You also need a way to deal SA damage to things with immunity and if you want archery to actually be useful, you'll probably want to break the 30' limit also.

Best ways to trigger SA consistently are probably:
- Ring of Blinking
- Hide in Plain Sight + Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] (details depend on the type of HiPS you acquire; easiest is probably Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) with Camouflage+HiPS but that's level 13; see here for a more comprehensive list of options (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff); Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic] is an easy way but I don't recall that removing the need for cover or concealment to Hide)
- Grease (if you have a Wand that can Quicken it [5th level slot tho, can't do that with a standard Wand], or a friendly Wizard casting it, it's pretty reliable)
- Greater Invisibility (ditto; note that it takes a combat action to cast it as a standard action and it's rounds/level so you gotta be careful about the duration)

Far as ways to Sneak Attack things normally immune, you can use Wands of Gravestrike, Vinestrike and Golemstrike (all spells swift action to cast, from Spell Compendium, 1st level). That should have you covered on a basic level. Unfortunately the standard way to bypass SA immunity for ½, Penetrating Strike [Dungeonscape], only works when flanking the target and there's precious few ways to flank with ranged weapons.

And range...Crossbow Sniper increases it to 60' for Crossbows. That's hardly enough for many scenarios, though. Better option is Wand of Sniper's Shot (yet again, 1st level swift action spell) which removes the cap entirely for a round.


Other than that, pick Craven, maximize your Sneak Attack, pimp out your gear with normal Rogue-stuff and profit. You can multiclass (as you can see, some spells could really help; and there's also ways to get higher SA than straight Rogue though generally straight Rogue has a better package than its PrC options) though at that point I'd almost consider Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> (gets all the spells you want and then some and ends up with high enough level slots to persist them the oldfashioned way).


I've tried the Archery Handbook on BG and unfortunately the bit I need doesn't seem to be there (anymore?).

Yet (<- Author of said guide, btw)


Use feats like:


Combat archery

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Combat_Archery

Dead eye--which has been errata'd to BAB +1

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Dead_Eye

Efficient Pull

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Efficient_Pull


Remember to take rapid shot, but avoid manyshot. I can't stand that feat.


Combat Archery is a friggin' Epic feat (also replicated by a 1st level spell called "Arrow Mind" in Spell Compendium, which is actually better as it also allows you to take AoOs with a bow). Yeah, no. Efficient Pull is basically +1 damage with bows provided they're made for the appropriate strength rating; it's an awful feat (much, much worse than Weapon Specialization, which is weak in and of itself). And Dead Eye...I'd like to think a Sneak Attacker doesn't exactly need more precision damage within 30' range after Craven + full SA especially since Sniper's Shot doesn't work with it.

There simply aren't good meaningful feat-based non-spell dependent ways to increase bow damage aside from Ranged Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II] and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] (yes, spells give you stuff like Holy Warrior but I'm assuming the character in question is not a spellcaster). Which makes Feat Rogue really weak as an archer if going all the way; he doesn't even qualify for the special Fighter-feats thus leaving him completely hanging.

[Safety Sword]

Awesome useful stuff

Thanks Eldariel. You have some very useful suggestions there.

I'm not sure whether I'll have issues with swift action spell (wand) + [presuming Quick Draw] weapon out + actually firing! Again, feats. Clearly if I can get casting and the required spell(s) without resorting to wands that would be preferable, but each level of casting comes with a balancing loss of sneak attack dice. Not sure if Spell Compendium is in play yet, so I might yet come undone.

I'm not adverse to a little casting, but it's not really supposed to be the focus of the character. I really would prefer HiPS, it seems to be self reliant and fits with the stealth background I'm trying to establish.

If anyone has a reasonable alternative to sneak attack as a good damage source, I'm all... eyes. I've done a bit of reading on Swift Hunter and skirmish and the problem I see is that all that moving means you get a lower number of shots with average bonus damage (in comparison to frequent sneak attack, anyway).

Thank you for all the suggestions so far. Given me quite a bit to think on.

[JaronK]

Heck with Sneak Attack. Try Martial Rogue 2/Factotum X. As soon as you can, start using Minor Creation for endless Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise poison. Be a Necropolitan for poison immunity and reduced MAD. Rock the Knowledge Devotion if you want to boost your damage. Use a Splitting Collision Composite Longbow of Assassination and go to town.

Between Collision and Knowledge Devotion you've got +10 damage per shot, in addition to +5 to hit... and anything that's not poison immune is in for a world of hurt. A Tooth of Leraje really helps if you can get it.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure whether I'll have issues with swift action spell (wand) + [presuming Quick Draw] weapon out + actually firing! Again, feats. Clearly if I can get casting and the required spell(s) without resorting to wands that would be preferable, but each level of casting comes with a balancing loss of sneak attack dice. Not sure if Spell Compendium is in play yet, so I might yet come undone.

Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape are your simplest solution. Costs 100gp to add one to a weapon or a shield and a Wand in a wielded weapon's Wand Chamber is considered to be ready at all times. You can have one in bow and one in a Gauntlet and activate e.g. Arrow Mind or Sniper's Shot as desired. When you need to use X Strike, it's generally viable to spend an action to change as those situations tend to be predictable. You'll probably want a Greater Truedeath Crystal [Magic Item Compendium] for your weapon though as Undead are fairly common and that enables sneak attacking and critting those (or use Sniper's Shot in one Wand Chamber and Gravestrike in the other).

Other option would be Glove of Storing [DMG], which has a free action to acquire stuff from it. Have a Wand there, hold your bow in one hand while you acquire the Wand and use it and put it back in (each, acquiring and putting the item in the Glove is a free action) and then full attack.


If anyone has a reasonable alternative to sneak attack as a good damage source, I'm all... eyes. I've done a bit of reading on Swift Hunter and skirmish and the problem I see is that all that moving means you get a lower number of shots with average bonus damage (in comparison to frequent sneak attack, anyway).

Thank you for all the suggestions so far. Given me quite a bit to think on.

Clerics, Archivists, ToB characters (Warblades and Swordsages in particular) and Full BAB bases (Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian-base multiclass, for example) can become impressive archers without relying on precision damage. That's definitely a reliable way of doing it. Wizards and company can also do it, albeit those tend to take multiclassing.

Swift Hunters are very good too, except they lack a way to remove the range limitation (by RAW Sniper's Shot only works on Sneak Attack; it's not unreasonable to make it work with all precision damage though), but they come with a built-in means of bypassing immunities (Swift Hunter-feat's mechanics - there's a feat called Ranged Skirmisher in one Dragon Magazine but that's only 60' and again, that's about it) and you need to do some work, but it's plausible to full attack and move each round.

This comes in 3 common ways; Travel Devotion-feat from Complete Champion allows you to activate it as a free action to move as a swift action for 1 minute. One level dip in Cleric of Travel-domain allows you to gain the feat and burn your Turn Undead attempts to gain enough uses of it to last you ~4-5 encounters without rest. You can augment this with magic items; Magic Item Compendium has Anklets of Translocation and Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker which move you 15' as a swift action, for example. So when you don't want to waste a whole Travel Devotion, having some items with similar powers around is conveninetn.

Second is being able to take 10' steps. This unfortunately does not function with Improved Skirmish, though it's possible to take 20' steps as a free action with one specific combination. First, 10' steps though. DC 40 Tumble check enables you to do that; if you can get high enough Tumble to do that consistently (Skill Mastery to take 10 with +30 base, or just +39 base), you're set. This option is presented in Oriental Adventures, by the way. The other is Sparring Dummy of the Master [Arms & Equipment Guide]. You either need high Use Magic Device or one level of Monk to make it work. Finally, there's Press The Advantage stance in Tome of Battle. It's a 5th level stance meaning you need Initiator Level 9 to get it (18 levels in non-ToB class or 9 levels in a ToB class). It allows you to take two 5' steps instead of one; combine that with one of the above and you can move 20' as a free action.

Third is, of course, magic. Spells allow you to do all sorts of stuff and moving as a swift/free action is pretty easy. Off the top of my head, Greater Slide [Miniatures Handbook] moves you 20' and is a 2nd level spell, that could be quickened. Various teleportation abilities (Psionic Dimension Door, Teleport, Benign Transposition [Spell Compendium], etc.) obviously also work.


Usually, a non-caster Swift Hunter uses Travel Devotion. It's by far the easiest. You could also use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) but that'll be inferior in the long run as you don't get extra attacks from things like Rapid Shot and Haste for it being left behind in damage (not to mention, doing all attacks at -8 means you need to compensate for quite a bit of penalty to hit consistently with all 4 arrows later on), and it has a 30' range limit so even if you can overcome the precision damage range limit, you'll still be kinda stuck.

[myancey]

Combat Archery is a friggin' Epic feat (also replicated by a 1st level spell called "Arrow Mind" in Spell Compendium, which is actually better as it also allows you to take AoOs with a bow). Yeah, no. Efficient Pull is basically +1 damage with bows provided they're made for the appropriate strength rating; it's an awful feat (much, much worse than Weapon Specialization, which is weak in and of itself). And Dead Eye...I'd like to think a Sneak Attacker doesn't exactly need more precision damage within 30' range after Craven + full SA especially since Sniper's Shot doesn't work with it.

There simply aren't good meaningful feat-based non-spell dependent ways to increase bow damage aside from Ranged Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II] and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] (yes, spells give you stuff like Holy Warrior but I'm assuming the character in question is not a spellcaster). Which makes Feat Rogue really weak as an archer if going all the way; he doesn't even qualify for the special Fighter-feats thus leaving him completely hanging.

He didn't specify what level he was going to, so I thought I'd mention combat archery. And yeah, Dead Eye isn't necessary for sneak attack, but I wasn't going for sneak attack.

Efficient pull is a pretty cool feat for low levels, if you're simply trying to get damage up. I believe it'd actually add +2 damage. Great for if he's able to retrain.

I totally agree on Ranged Weapon Mastery though--good feat for rockin' damage.

And as for sneak attack--there probably exists some manner of using it on constructs, undead, oozes, etc...but still not as efficient as a fighter-based archer with these feats and a +3 strength bow with collision, some weapon augment, and elemental synergies.

But then again, I just dislike sneak attack. This build is more the 'in your face' style.

[Tvtyrant]

You could also play a chameleon that goes from Rogue to Chameleon and then uses casting/SA progression to hit things better.

Human Rogue, Int>Dex>Con>Dump

Rogue Feats: Point Blank Shot (level 1 feat), Rapid Shot (human racial feat), Precise Shot (level 3 feat)

Take Rogue to level 6, then into Chameleon. Your level 6 feat is up to you, but at level 9 you want Manyshot and then use your Chameleon feat for greater manyshot to get sneak attack against multiple foes as a standard action. You can also trade out features to do different things if the plan calls for something other then archery, which is the beauty of Chameleon.

[myancey]

You could also play a chameleon that goes from Rogue to Chameleon and then uses casting/SA progression to hit things better.

Nice. The chameleon class is beautiful. I'm looking forward to trying on of them out someday.

[Tvtyrant]

Nice. The chameleon class is beautiful. I'm looking forward to trying on of them out someday.

Actually I always feel silly working on builds, because I always find myself thinking "a Chameleon could do this better and simpler..." For instance, casting Holysword immediately deals with the need for owning two +5 weapons; your rogue can make itself a +5 longsword at will.

[myancey]

Actually I always feel silly working on builds, because I always find myself thinking "a Chameleon could do this better and simpler..." For instance, casting Holysword immediately deals with the need for owning two +5 weapons; your rogue can make itself a +5 longsword at will.

Heh. I had a similar experience. I was needing to cast a 4th level paladin spell for nonlethal immunity..so I was like, "I could take 14 levels of paladin...or 5 of chameleon..."

[Tvtyrant]

Heh. I had a similar experience. I was needing to cast a 4th level paladin spell for nonlethal immunity..so I was like, "I could take 14 levels of paladin...or 5 of chameleon..."

In some ways Chameleons make better Paladins then Paladins, since they cannot fall, get a faster spell progression and can swap their smite out if they don't need it. The only real advantage Paladins have is a mount they rarely get to use and the feat that gives them casting as a swift action.

[Eldariel]

He didn't specify what level he was going to, so I thought I'd mention combat archery. And yeah, Dead Eye isn't necessary for sneak attack, but I wasn't going for sneak attack.

I find it even worse if you aren't going for SA though since the primary benefit for not going for SA is that you can actually do your stuff at high ranges (without needing Sniper's Shot).


Efficient pull is a pretty cool feat for low levels, if you're simply trying to get damage up. I believe it'd actually add +2 damage. Great for if he's able to retrain.

You have tons of priority feats to pick up early on (PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Darkstalker, etc.) - I have a hard time of seeing where you'd get the free feat from that early. Also, the extra 100gp does matter early on.


And as for sneak attack--there probably exists some manner of using it on constructs, undead, oozes, etc...but still not as efficient as a fighter-based archer with these feats and a +3 strength bow with collision, some weapon augment, and elemental synergies.

Ways to overcome the SA issues I already covered; it's easy enough. Eh. Sneak Attack is going to do more damage, simply because there's no ranged Power Attack (and Power Shot is ok, but not really supported by feat chains). Fighter Archer is relatively low-efficiency; here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163500) an approximation of an optimized level 20 one (few ways exist to improve upon it but the improvements aren't really massive - the biggest is using a Splitting Bow which would cut To Hit and damage quite a bit but double the attacks giving you about 400 damage a turn). The damage is rather low; 291 a turn assuming all hits and no relevant DR. And note that this build uses all its skillpoints (a resource we don't really wanna waste on a skill monkey) and has Fighter-specific feats which a Martial Rogue doesn't have access to. And Martial Rogue is Medium BAB. All in all, he's be just plain much worse off.

Now, the attack bonus is somewhat respectable and there are some neat features like being able to use the bow in a grapple, but a comparable Rogue should have no trouble getting to around +37 To Hit and much better as long as he's able to hide from the opponent. The damage would be more to the tune of 1d6+10+10d6+20 but that amounts to 342 a turn, still. And that number is low end; I'm assuming 10 Str, small size, +5 Collision bow and Craven-feat. That's it. The To Hits are largely similar after the initial 3 attacks which are like to hit anyways unless you're dealing with things with notably-higher-than-MM AC and no relevant Dex-component. We would be talking potentially 500+ a turn with a proper build.

While you can stack elemental damage abilities on a bow, fact is that low elemental resistances become really common which makes having a number of them inefficient, not to mention inconvenient since you have to separately track each type and whether the target is immune for each.


Now, a multiclassed Full BAB Archer can output some decent damage (notably without relying on a small vault worth of magic items), but that's neither here nor now.

[Tvtyrant]

Now, a multiclassed Full BAB Archer can output some decent damage (notably without relying on a small vault worth of magic items), but that's neither here nor now.
Or be a Chameleon archer and cast Divine Power on yourself while progressing SA and casting spells to buff your arrows! Go team Chameleon!:smallwink:

[ericgrau]

A starting level would be very helpful for narrowing down build tips.

[Eldariel]

Or be a Chameleon archer and cast Divine Power on yourself while progressing SA and casting spells to buff your arrows! Go team Chameleon!:smallwink:

Sure, but by the time you think to go Chameleon you begin to think why you aren't just an Unseen Seer/Incantatrix 3 persisting every buff in the books for the hell of it while Sneak Attacking for double digit dice in the early teens? :smallbiggrin:

[myancey]

You have tons of priority feats to pick up early on (PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Darkstalker, etc.) - I have a hard time of seeing where you'd get the free feat from that early. Also, the extra 100gp does matter early on.

That would be true but he hasn't specified whether flaws are allowed or not. As for gold, 100gp can easily be gained by 2nd level. So still valid early on.


Now, the attack bonus is somewhat respectable and there are some neat features like being able to use the bow in a grapple, but a comparable Rogue should have no trouble getting to around +37 To Hit and much better as long as he's able to hide from the opponent. The damage would be more to the tune of 1d6+10+10d6+20 but that amounts to 342 a turn, still. And that number is low end; I'm assuming 10 Str, small size, +5 Collision bow and Craven-feat. That's it. The To Hits are largely similar after the initial 3 attacks which are like to hit anyways unless you're dealing with things with notably-higher-than-MM AC and no relevant Dex-component. We would be talking potentially 500+ a turn with a proper build.

And I never denied that your build was pretty rockin'. But he's more of a sneaky rogue, and I was building a cool action hero bow-fighter. This guy is built to run around in the midst of combat and basically be the precursor to the gunslinger. Just sayin'. But props on the wicked build...I may model a guy that way sometime.


Or be a Chameleon archer and cast Divine Power on yourself while progressing SA and casting spells to buff your arrows! Go team Chameleon!

And heck yes for more chameleon awesome. Chameleon for the win.


Sure, but by the time you think to go Chameleon you begin to think why you aren't just an Unseen Seer/Incantatrix 3 persisting every buff in the books for the hell of it while Sneak Attacking for double digit dice in the early teens?

You gotta admit, chameleon has a capital P...for personality.

[Safety Sword]

A starting level would be very helpful for narrowing down build tips.

If it helps it's starting from 1 and probably going to get to 20... more realistically things will get silly around 15 and the campaign will break. EDIT: No flaws either. Not all that popular in our group.

Wand chambers sound awesome. Chameleon has the whiff of cheese about it from the way you guys are describing it. Where can I find out more? I'd like to avoid visiting the cheese shop.

I'm starting to see a divide here with "more attacks" and "increase sneak attack" being the two sides of the particular fence. Like I said, I'm not really decided so all reasonable options will be considered. I was a bit concerned about medium BAB on my rogue chassis.

By the way, I know that "there's a spell for that" is in effect, but like I have mentioned previously I'd like magic to be somewhat secondary. It should thematically be "precisely" targeted arrows doing the damage.

[Tvtyrant]

It can be used for cheese, but it doesn't have to. Its a very strong class, but its not going to wreck the game unless your goal is to wreck the game :P

Its from Races of Destiny and it lets you basically swap classes everyday.

[myancey]

I'm starting to see a divide here with "more attacks" and "increase sneak attack" being the two sides of the particular fence. Like I said, I'm not really decided so all reasonable options will be considered. I was a bit concerned about medium BAB on my rogue chassis.

By the way, I know that "there's a spell for that" is in effect, but like I have mentioned previously I'd like magic to be somewhat secondary. It should thematically be "precisely" targeted arrows doing the damage.

Nice. Yeah, flaws have been abused in my campaigns too. I still allow them but as a DM, I pick the flaws, and only from UA.

The build I've been proposing is straight archery, with the only magic used being bow buffs, armor buffs, etc. Basic fighter stuffs.

He'll also have pretty good HP. For the efficient pull he'd only need a 12 strength. Mostly based around dexterity. It'll be a decently optimized straight-damage archer without all the complications of casting, wands, and sneak attack.

But again, that's just what I enjoy. But check out collision as a weapon enhancement either way. It's good stuffs.

[Eldariel]

If it helps it's starting from 1 and probably going to get to 20... more realistically things will get silly around 15 and the campaign will break. EDIT: No flaws either. Not all that popular in our group.

Wand chambers sound awesome. Chameleon has the whiff of cheese about it from the way you guys are describing it. Where can I find out more? I'd like to avoid visiting the cheese shop.

I'm starting to see a divide here with "more attacks" and "increase sneak attack" being the two sides of the particular fence. Like I said, I'm not really decided so all reasonable options will be considered. I was a bit concerned about medium BAB on my rogue chassis.

By the way, I know that "there's a spell for that" is in effect, but like I have mentioned previously I'd like magic to be somewhat secondary. It should thematically be "precisely" targeted arrows doing the damage.

Chameleon is from Races of Destiny. It's not really cheesy; it's kinda second wheel to everything. It gets some divine casting, some arcane casting, some combat prowess and some skill monkeyism. It basically makes you a jack of all trades. It does require level 6 to get started in though.

As for spells...thing is, you're trying to sneak attack targets without vitals. That's gonna take magic. And you try to make superprecise attacks miles away. Yeah, that'll take magic too. Magic augments sneak attacking; the base skill (damage from SA, to hit, all that) is still you. That's really your best shot aside from a game where basically all material is allowed; with some 3.0 Prestige Classes you could make a martial archer that basically relies on critting a lot. But that wouldn't have too many skills to it. How married are you to being a skill monkey?

[Safety Sword]

It can be used for cheese, but it doesn't have to. Its a very strong class, but its not going to wreck the game unless your goal is to wreck the game :P

Its from Races of Destiny and it lets you basically swap classes everyday.

Sounds like a lot of bookkeeping!

My last character was a cleric and just keeping track of my spells almost made the character unplayable. Enjoyed it personally. Just always people waiting for me to sort my spell selection out every morning.

I thought a nice easy archer would be a good change of pace.

[Safety Sword]

As for spells...thing is, you're trying to sneak attack targets without vitals. That's gonna take magic. And you try to make superprecise attacks miles away. Yeah, that'll take magic too. Magic augments sneak attacking; the base skill (damage from SA, to hit, all that) is still you. That's really your best shot aside from a game where basically all material is allowed; with some 3.0 Prestige Classes you could make a martial archer that basically relies on critting a lot. But that wouldn't have too many skills to it. How married are you to being a skill monkey?

I understand about the spells. I just don't want them to be the focus of the build.

Skill monkey is the only real open "role" left to the party. Arcane and divine primary casters are sorted, we have a tough guy and we have a DM who is fond of "location interesting" combat and traps. Skill monkey seems like the obvious place for me to go. But that being said. I want a fun and effective archer. The rest can take a back seat to the build having those qualities.

[Tvtyrant]

I understand about the spells. I just don't want them to be the focus of the build.

Skill monkey is the only real open "role" left to the party. Arcane and divine primary casters are sorted, we have a tough guy and we have a DM who is fond of "location interesting" combat and traps. Skill monkey seems like the obvious place for me to go. But that being said. I want a fun and effective archer. The rest can take a back seat to the build having those qualities.
Another fine reason to be a Chameleon! It allows you to swap in Rogue skills each morning instead of more combat oriented abilities if you want; so if your looking forward to traps all day you can do that, and if you are crossing open country and want to be ready for random encounters you can do that. Here at chameleon emporium we cater to all desires*

*Based on past experiences, and excluding Binding, Psionics, Incarnum, Maneuvers, and other abilities that have been added to core D&D. Please see page 111 of Races of Destiny for details.

Sorry, I will stop the salesman thing :P Anyway, skill monkey tends to be int based, and SA combat is more dex based, so pure Rogue is going to be difficult. Another option could be using Swordsage and focusing on the SA maneuvers, but that tends to be seen by people as "magicky" as well.

[Eldariel]

Sorry, I will stop the salesman thing :P Anyway, skill monkey tends to be int based, and SA combat is more dex based, so pure Rogue is going to be difficult. Another option could be using Swordsage and focusing on the SA maneuvers, but that tends to be seen by people as "magicky" as well.

Eh. 8+Int skillpoints from a good skill list tends to get you far. Straight Rogue is the best for that job. And frankly, Rogue Archer does function; you just need some level 1 Wands available for the most common issues along with the Use Magic Device to go with it. And probably Hide in Plain Sight eventually. Before then, just make do with some combination of hiding, surprise rounds, blinking, invisibility & grease. Coordinate with the other party members (especially the arcanist; he has the stuff you care about) and you should be fun.

[Curmudgeon]

Your basic Rogue or Scout works for this at least as well as other class choices; it's very hard to top their skill points and large number of class skills.

OK, the basics:

Start with a suitable race. Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) is a good choice if you're only going to have one base class. You'll benefit from the bonuses to DEX (attack) and STR (damage, with a composite bow). All Elves are proficient with the longbow, which is a better choice for range and damage than the standard shortbow that Rogues and Scouts get.
Maximize your Spot score. If you're going to be walking around with a bow ready to fire, it's going to be embarrassing for you to be surprised. See enemies before they see you, and get to attack flat-footed foes in both the surprise round and the first regular round of combat. (Don't waste a feat on Improved Initiative. Because you'll have a choice of targets in the first regular round, you'll almost always find one that's got a lower initiative than you do. Make a full attack against foes who haven't acted yet.)
In a Forgotten Realms campaign, go for the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave. That's basically the Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight of the Shadowdancer for +1 LA, which you buy off for 3,000 XP at class level 3. It's an excellent bargain. Then just maximize your Hide and you'll be set for sneak attack/skirmish within 30', and a +2 to your attacks vs. foes denied their DEX bonus to AC generally. Remember, Hide isn't a separate action; you're only allowed to make a Hide check in combination with a small list of other actions ─ but one of those is attacking. So make a Hide check with every shot, and if you're successful you'll never be seen. The importance of that is enemies won't ever know what square you were in.
If you go for the Scout route, maximize your Tumble skill and build up to Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to move and get off multiple shots with skirmish damage each time. Once you get to where you can make a DC 40 Tumble check you can instead make a 10' adjustment in place of a 5' step, and make a full attack without the Manyshot penalties.
If you go the Rogue route, maximize your Use Magic Device skill and use wands as others have pointed out already. But as a Rogue you'll also have the skills to acquire considerably more wealth than other characters, so you can get your bow upgraded to splitting (Champions of Ruin). Do that as soon as you can.
Compared to a Ranger you're going to be deficient in feats. Look for workarounds so you don't need so many feats yourself. Horizon Goggles (Complete Mage) grant the Far Shot feat. The precise weapon enhancement grants the wielder the Precise Shot feat, but I'd recommend against that until after you've got splitting. Use Boots of Speed to get the benefit of Haste as a superior alternative to Rapid Shot.

[Safety Sword]

Your basic Rogue or Scout works for this at least as well as other class choices; it's very hard to top their skill points and large number of class skills.

OK, the basics:

Start with a suitable race. Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) is a good choice if you're only going to have one base class. You'll benefit from the bonuses to DEX (attack) and STR (damage, with a composite bow). All Elves are proficient with the longbow, which is a better choice for range and damage than the standard shortbow that Rogues and Scouts get.
Maximize your Spot score. If you're going to be walking around with a bow ready to fire, it's going to be embarrassing for you to be surprised. See enemies before they see you, and get to attack flat-footed foes in both the surprise round and the first regular round of combat. (Don't waste a feat on Improved Initiative. Because you'll have a choice of targets in the first regular round, you'll almost always find one that's got a lower initiative than you do. Make a full attack against foes who haven't acted yet.)
In a Forgotten Realms campaign, go for the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave. That's basically the Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight of the Shadowdancer for +1 LA, which you buy off for 3,000 XP at class level 3. It's an excellent bargain. Then just maximize your Hide and you'll be set for sneak attack/skirmish within 30', and a +2 to your attacks vs. foes denied their DEX bonus to AC generally. Remember, Hide isn't a separate action; you're only allowed to make a Hide check in combination with a small list of other actions ─ but one of those is attacking. So make a Hide check with every shot, and if you're successful you'll never be seen. The importance of that is enemies won't ever know what square you were in.
If you go for the Scout route, maximize your Tumble skill and build up to Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to move and get off multiple shots with skirmish damage each time. Once you get to where you can make a DC 40 Tumble check you can instead make a 10' adjustment in place of a 5' step, and make a full attack without the Manyshot penalties.
If you go the Rogue route, maximize your Use Magic Device skill and use wands as others have pointed out already. But as a Rogue you'll also have the skills to acquire considerably more wealth than other characters, so you can get your bow upgraded to splitting (Champions of Ruin). Do that as soon as you can.
Compared to a Ranger you're going to be deficient in feats. Look for workarounds so you don't need so many feats yourself. Horizon Goggles (Complete Mage) grant the Far Shot feat. The precise weapon enhancement grants the wielder the Precise Shot feat, but I'd recommend against that until after you've got splitting. Use Boots of Speed to get the benefit of Haste as a superior alternative to Rapid Shot.

All sounds pretty good. Not sure I'm going to be able to slide the Dark Template by my DM. Our group played through the whole lot of adventures starting with Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave in previous incarnations and there is a healthy respect for the Dark Template and what that means for trying to hit creatures with it! LA buy off also might raise some eyebrows.

Might need a more "traditional" way to get my sneak attacks in. Ring of Blinking and Pierce Magical Concealment might do me. Athough again, feats will be the issue.

Spot, Hide and Listen and UMD are going to be maxed out as far practical. So, still on track there.

The most important bit here is that my ideas have been reinforced. Straight rogue (well, almost) is considered viable by some respected members of the playground and will be simple, fun and different from my previous characters.

OK, so now I've decided on a sneak attack rogue chassis. Let's get specific. Class & Feat progression is probably most important to me now. So, show me what you'd do.

[Eldariel]

Might need a more "traditional" way to get my sneak attacks in. Ring of Blinking and Pierce Magical Concealment might do me. Athough again, feats will be the issue.

PMC isn't necessary. It's "nice to have", yes, but lacking it won't end your life. The miss chance from Blinking does not intervene with your ability to SA. But on low levels, having the arcanist prepare Grease (and packing Marbles [Arms & Equipment Guide]) are your best bets for easy Sneak Attacks aside from hiding and surprise round.

Race...most likely Strongheart Halfling [Player's Guide to Faerun], Human or Whisper Gnome [Races of Stone]. There's something to be said about Fire Elves too if you aren't going for a socialite, though Con-penalty on a d6 character really sucks. At least you're ranged so you're in a bit more secure a place.


Build...well, (Wilderness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue)) Rogue 20 (well, not to 20 of course) seems fine. Stat priority...something like Dex > Con = Int > Wis = Cha = Str. Obviously, as a Rogue, you'd prefer to have no negative stats, but Dex is the most important and Int gives you skillpoints (more powerful in the long run than the static bonuses from high stat) and Con more HP + Fort-saves.

Feats obviously include:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]
Craven [Champions of Ruin]

And beyond that, it's mostly up to you. Improved Precise Shot eventually is a decent option (though I prefer Seeking Bow myself), Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] could work (though I doubt you'd have the skill points to take it), Nymph's Kiss would really help with your skillmonkeyisms giving you Charisma-based bonuses [b]and extra points (stringent RP requirements tho; also probably most natural for Elves), Pierce Magical Concealment isn't bad by any means, et cetera.

[Safety Sword]

PMC isn't necessary. It's "nice to have", yes, but lacking it won't end your life. The miss chance from Blinking does not intervene with your ability to SA. But on low levels, having the arcanist prepare Grease (and packing Marbles [Arms & Equipment Guide]) are your best bets for easy Sneak Attacks aside from hiding and surprise round.

Race...most likely Strongheart Halfling [Player's Guide to Faerun], Human or Whisper Gnome [Races of Stone]. There's something to be said about Fire Elves too if you aren't going for a socialite, though Con-penalty on a d6 character really sucks. At least you're ranged so you're in a bit more secure a place.


Build...well, (Wilderness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue)) Rogue 20 (well, not to 20 of course) seems fine. Stat priority...something like Dex > Con = Int > Wis = Cha = Str. Obviously, as a Rogue, you'd prefer to have no negative stats, but Dex is the most important and Int gives you skillpoints (more powerful in the long run than the static bonuses from high stat) and Con more HP + Fort-saves.

Feats obviously include:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]
Craven [Champions of Ruin]

And beyond that, it's mostly up to you. Improved Precise Shot eventually is a decent option (though I prefer Seeking Bow myself), Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] could work (though I doubt you'd have the skill points to take it), Nymph's Kiss would really help with your skillmonkeyisms giving you Charisma-based bonuses [b]and extra points (stringent RP requirements tho; also probably most natural for Elves), Pierce Magical Concealment isn't bad by any means, et cetera.

As I said before, I have a healthy respect for miss chance. It's a bit of a Murphy's Law thing, but it does go wrong at the worst times.

Strictly speaking I'm looking at Rogue 19/ Fighter 1. Rogue 20 seems like a dead level and I could use the feat. And the weapon proficiencies, frankly. Maybe (Wilderness) Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 18 as far as progression goes. Maybe a variant fighter with sneak attack for an extra d6 of goodness? Is that a fighter ACF? Not sure if many +1d6 sneak attacks strictly speaking will be better than a feat overall, probably not.

This solves some issues (I can be human and still get a longbow into the mix! FEATS! Skill points!). Starting to come together now I think. The feats you suggest are pretty much along my line of thinking. All of the archery feats are pretty much required. Precise shot at Level 1 is nice (PBS is a PoS but required).

It's looking a bit MAD at the moment. But if I can get over the fact that I'm never going to do decent damage on a normal (read: non-sneak attack) hit, then I think I'm fine. Wilderness Rogue is a good call. I'm not looking to be the centre of attention, socially speaking. A rough back story is percolating now.

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread. Please continue to add to it if any moments of brilliance strike you. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

As I said before, I have a healthy respect for miss chance. It's a bit of a Murphy's Law thing, but it does go wrong at the worst times.

Strictly speaking I'm looking at Rogue 19/ Fighter 1. Rogue 20 seems like a dead level and I could use the feat. And the weapon proficiencies, frankly. Maybe (Wilderness) Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 18 as far as progression goes. Maybe a variant fighter with sneak attack for an extra d6 of goodness?

This solves some issues (I can be human and still get a longbow into the mix! FEATS! Skill points!). Starting to come together now I think. The feats you suggest are pretty much along my line of thinking. All of the archery feats are pretty much required. Precise shot at Level 1 is nice (PBS is a PoS but required).

It's looking a bit MAD at the moment. But if I can get over the fact that I'm never going to do decent damage on a normal (read: non-sneak attack) hit, then I think I'm fine. Wilderness Rogue is a good call. I'm not looking to be the centre of attention, socially speaking. A rough back story is percolating now.

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread. Please continue to add to it if any moments of brilliance strike you. :smallbiggrin:

Out of all classes, I'd stay the hell away from Fighter. 2+Int skills on a skill monkey? Blegh! More alluring options from Core would be the Barbarian (you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) or Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which are actually quite Rogue-like Combat Focus (or in general, Dex Focus in case of Ferocity) sorta abilities; Extra Rage could be taken for extra uses if desired but using them as the sorts of Last Resort-buttons also works) and the Ranger (obvious, tons of skills, some free junk; could take Ranger 2 for the feat).

Outside of that, Hexblade would give you some Will-save alongside 4+Int skills and no-UMD access to Hexblade spells and Duskblade offers Will & Fort-save but only 2+Int skills (and obv, Duskblade spells instead of Hexblade spells; you'd actually get some as castables tho). I'd go with one of those 4. All of them have all martial weapon proficiencies too. Tho so do Elves.

[Safety Sword]

Out of all classes, I'd stay the hell away from Fighter. 2+Int skills on a skill monkey? Blegh! More alluring options from Core would be the Barbarian (you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) or Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which are actually quite Rogue-like Combat Focus (or in general, Dex Focus in case of Ferocity) sorta abilities; Extra Rage could be taken for extra uses if desired but using them as the sorts of Last Resort-buttons also works) and the Ranger (obvious, tons of skills, some free junk; could take Ranger 2 for the feat).

Outside of that, Hexblade would give you some Will-save alongside 4+Int skills and no-UMD access to Hexblade spells and Duskblade offers Will & Fort-save but only 2+Int skills (and obv, Duskblade spells instead of Hexblade spells; you'd actually get some as castables tho). I'd go with one of those 4. All of them have all martial weapon proficiencies too. Tho so do Elves.

Ranger 2 for the combat style bonus had occurred to me earlier, almost free Rapid Shot. Extra BAB, drops one d6 of sneak attack if I go this way though. Decisions, decisions.. Actually goes nicely (fluff wise) with Wilderness rogue too.. hmm. I think the skill synergy has tipped it for me. Still gets longbow in there too.

[Safety Sword]

Opinions:

Is the feat tax that is Dodge and Mobility, and 5 ranks in Perform (funky chicken) going to be worth it to dip into Shadowdancer 1 for the HiPS?

Sounds like poop, but I think that's probably the earliest way I can think of to get HiPS.

[Eldariel]

Opinions:

Is the feat tax that is Dodge and Mobility, and 5 ranks in Perform (funky chicken) going to be worth it to dip into Shadowdancer 1 for the HiPS?

Sounds like poop, but I think that's probably the earliest way I can think of to get HiPS.

It's painful; you'll have to account for your feats and see if you're willing to pay the price. If you go a feat bonus race, it may be plausible. Though frankly, I'm not sure if your Hide will be high enough in the levels you could get into Shadowdancer on to truly utilize Hide in Plain Sight; -20 is a hefty penalty.

So...really, depends on the campaign and stuff. If you have good base Hide and access to low level Hide buffs, maybe. I personally like just going with straight Rogue and picking it up on 13, though; using auxillary means of SAing until then.

[Safety Sword]

It's painful; you'll have to account for your feats and see if you're willing to pay the price. If you go a feat bonus race, it may be plausible. Though frankly, I'm not sure if your Hide will be high enough in the levels you could get into Shadowdancer on to truly utilize Hide in Plain Sight; -20 is a hefty penalty.

So...really, depends on the campaign and stuff. If you have good base Hide and access to low level Hide buffs, maybe. I personally like just going with straight Rogue and picking it up on 13, though; using auxillary means of SAing until then.

I never thought of it that way. Having HiPS and not enough Hide to use it properly, once factoring in the penalties, does seem rather useless now that you're pointing it out... :smallconfused:

Cleric was so much easier :smallamused:

[Gwendol]

Or play "the other rogue" class: bard. With IC bonuses (see separate threads for how to make the most out of that class feature) you will be hitting your targets and doing respectable damage, and so will the rest of your team.

In terms of skill monkey the bard is in many ways superior; with the exception of traps.

Use UMD to get access to the ranger spells: Arrow mind and arrow stom in wands.

[Curmudgeon]

Is the feat tax that is Dodge and Mobility, and 5 ranks in Perform (funky chicken) going to be worth it to dip into Shadowdancer 1 for the HiPS?
If you can't get the Forgotten Realms Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave Dark Creature Template, a dip into Shadowdancer is the next best option for Hide in Plain Sight. However, the feat expenditure for what you get is too high unless you take some optimization steps:

Buy Mobility in the form of the armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium, page 13). You can add this enhancement to Bracers of Armor (see the rules in Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130) or robes with an armor bonus (see the rules in Magic Item Compendium on page 234).
If you see any melee combat potential for this character (typically with close quarters fighting where archery would generate AoOs), select Spring Attack as your next (level 9) feat after you take the Shadowdancer dip. You'll have already bought its feat prerequisites to enter Shadowdancer, so this gives you more return for your investment. The idea is that against enemies with poor Spot you'll be able to Hide while attacking (right in their faces!) despite the -20 penalty to your checks. Against enemies with good Spot you'll want to Spring to them (and Hide while moving), Attack, and Spring away (and Hide again while moving).
Consider taking Shadowdancer 2 as well to gain access to a few Rogue ACFs, plus darkvision (useful if going the Elf route to get more hours of nighttime activity and automatic Search for secret doors).

Spell Reflection (Complete Mage, page 35): trade Rogue evasion for the ability to reflect spells targeted at you that miss.
Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic, page 14): trade Rogue uncanny dodge for immunity to draconic Frightful Presence and a bonus to resist other fear effects. This really helps with the Craven fear penalty.

[Safety Sword]

If you can't get the Forgotten Realms Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave Dark Creature Template, a dip into Shadowdancer is the next best option for Hide in Plain Sight. However, the feat expenditure for what you get is too high unless you take some optimization steps:

Buy Mobility in the form of the armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium, page 13). You can add this enhancement to Bracers of Armor (see the rules in Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130) or robes with an armor bonus (see the rules in Magic Item Compendium on page 234).
If you see any melee combat potential for this character (typically with close quarters fighting where archery would generate AoOs), select Spring Attack as your next (level 9) feat after you take the Shadowdancer dip. You'll have already bought its feat prerequisites to enter Shadowdancer, so this gives you more return for your investment. The idea is that against enemies with poor Spot you'll be able to Hide while attacking (right in their faces!) despite the -20 penalty to your checks. Against enemies with good Spot you'll want to Spring to them (and Hide while moving), Attack, and Spring away (and Hide again while moving).
Consider taking Shadowdancer 2 as well to gain access to a few Rogue ACFs, plus darkvision (useful if going the Elf route to get more hours of nighttime activity and automatic Search for secret doors).

Spell Reflection (Complete Mage, page 35): trade Rogue evasion for the ability to reflect spells targeted at you that miss.
Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic, page 14): trade Rogue uncanny dodge for immunity to draconic Frightful Presence and a bonus to resist other fear effects. This really helps with the Craven fear penalty.


I see. So take the spell reflection ACF, trading away Evasion and get it back slightly later via Shadowdancer 2. I'm a bit worried about getting fireballed to death before that happens, but it certainly makes sense.

I'm not a fan of uncanny dodge (especially on an archer!) so that also makes sense too.

Not sure Spring Attack will get a whole lot of use. Not planning to get that close :smallwink:

I'll have to check to see if armor enhancements from MiC are in play. Certainly better than the feat if I can help it.

Again, thank you guys. Enlightening. :smallsmile:

[Safety Sword]

Or play "the other rogue" class: bard. With IC bonuses (see separate threads for how to make the most out of that class feature) you will be hitting your targets and doing respectable damage, and so will the rest of your team.

In terms of skill monkey the bard is in many ways superior; with the exception of traps.

Use UMD to get access to the ranger spells: Arrow mind and arrow stom in wands.

It's not really what I'm trying to do here. I've pretty much decided to make this a "sneak attack archer" now. But thank you for trying to help.

[Eldariel]

I'm not a fan of uncanny dodge (especially on an archer!) so that also makes sense too.

You should be. Archer has an unusually large percentage of the AC based on Dex and being denied it whenever someone attacks you invisibly, you lose initiative or such is kinda painful. I love Uncanny Dodge on any character (makes sneak attacking said char harder too) but especially Dex-based ones.

And again, there are ways other than HiPS to get the job done. Ring of Blinking probably comes earlier. And Wilderness Rogue HiPS is usable in most natural terrain the way Shadowdancer's is usable with Shadows since you have Camouflage too. And that would save you a level and Dodge + Mobility. On the other hand, Shadowdancer does enable taking the variants and gets it a bit earlier. It's your choice which poison to drink, in the end.

[Safety Sword]

You should be. Archer has an unusually large percentage of the AC based on Dex and being denied it whenever someone attacks you invisibly, you lose initiative or such is kinda painful. I love Uncanny Dodge on any character (makes sneak attacking said char harder too) but especially Dex-based ones.

And again, there are ways other than HiPS to get the job done. Ring of Blinking probably comes earlier. And Wilderness Rogue HiPS is usable in most natural terrain the way Shadowdancer's is usable with Shadows since you have Camouflage too. And that would save you a level and Dodge + Mobility. On the other hand, Shadowdancer does enable taking the variants and gets it a bit earlier. It's your choice which poison to drink, in the end.

*nods*

Not sure combat heavy the campaign will be and would like to have continuous use of my sneak attack archery (since it's what I'm building the entire character around!).

Shadowdancer is appealing to me at the moment. Just because I take Wilderness Rogue doesn't mean we won't end up in a dungeon. But I'm pretty sure that at the very least I can bank on there being shadows in most places!

As you say, I'm going to have to choose in the end. It's just nice to have advice from which to make informed choices!

[Curmudgeon]

Not sure Spring Attack will get a whole lot of use. Not planning to get that close :smallwink:
It's rather less about what you plan, and more about what your DM plans. :smallamused: A dungeon with narrow corridors and lots of intersections is a perfect place to ambush archers, and your bow would just get you into trouble (attacks of opportunity) when you're suddenly surrounded. If you have no melee capability, I think that's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

[Eldariel]

It's rather less about what you plan, and more about what your DM plans. :smallamused: A dungeon with narrow corridors and lots of intersections is a perfect place to ambush archers, and your bow would just get you into trouble (attacks of opportunity) when you're suddenly surrounded. If you have no melee capability, I think that's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

Arrow Mind Wand in Wand Chamber does help in that case too, though. One feat is still quite the opportunity cost.

[Safety Sword]

It's rather less about what you plan, and more about what your DM plans. :smallamused: A dungeon with narrow corridors and lots of intersections is a perfect place to ambush archers, and your bow would just get you into trouble (attacks of opportunity) when you're suddenly surrounded. If you have no melee capability, I think that's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

I'm usually the (devious) DM who plans these kinds of situations, so I'm well aware that the "bad stuff" can happen. I'm looking at this from my character's perspective. If I can shoot the stinger off a bee at 30 ft, that's what I'm going to try and do. *Tumble/Hide* Again, I see your point, but I'm not trying to make this character all things to all situations. :smallcool:

It'll probably be fun to try and extricate myself from a devious DM ambush from a player point of view. In fact, if one of my friends was playing this character I'd surely do exactly as you suggest, just not too often.

Anyway, clearly I'm not building a Curmudgeon standard character, who would have already sneak attacked me and left me bleeding on the ground by now :smallamused: