True Dragons as Characters

[Tvtyrant]

So I was looking as the True Dragon section of the SRD, and I noticed that several of them had HD 20 forms. If you simply ungraded forms as you reached the HD of that form and reached Adult at HD 20 for Copper or Green, or Young Adult for Gold would that be an overpowered character?

It certainly has advantages over normal characters, but they don't seem to be as dangerous as an equivalent HD full caster and they don't get very many item slots. This seems to balance out to me at around Tier 2-3, but I was wondering what the playground thought.

[gorfnab]

Dragon Magazine #320 has savage progressions for Metallic Dragons and Dragon Magazine #332 has savage progressions for Chromatic Dragons.

Pros of using these progressions:
Lots of skill points.
Decent tanking at most levels.

Cons:
Extremely slow spellcasting progression.
Extremely slow size progression.

[peacenlove]

I think they make godly tanks, most dragons will be huge or large at this HD, good saves, great hd, excellent strength, constitution, natural armor, many dangerous natural attacks.
Note that pathfinder buffs them even further (no need for them to take multiattack, improved multiattack, most of their natural attacks are primary, buffed caster level for their HD, close to 13 I think for 20 hd)
Consider Eberron's sovereign archetypes for more specialization between dragons (I especially like flame's passion which gives them rage, and wyrm of war which gives them bonus feats aka maneuvers/stances)
I see them as solid T3 with judicious use of splatbooks because 3rd to 5th level spellcasting is not going to break the game at level 20 (but it gives them some decent buffs).


Dragon Magazine #320 has savage progressions for Metallic Dragons and Dragon Magazine #332 has savage progressions for Chromatic Dragons.

I think he means to use them without their horrendous LA. (don't know however maybe those progressions do not take account of it)

[Tvtyrant]

I figured for dealing with class levels that you have to advance as a dragon to get the next age category, but could class out if you didn't care too much. So a Very Young green could multiclass into Barbarian if it wanted to, but it would reduce the number of age categories it could advance by.

This also opens up the prestige classes from Dracomonicon now that I think about it.



I think he means to use them without their horrendous LA. (don't know however maybe those progressions do not take account of it)

Yup, was just going to go HD=Class HD and progress them as the monster. They have lots of dead levels but get their own advantages. Gold Dragon is probably the best one for that, since you can turn into a humanoid.

[Greenish]

Yup, was just going to go HD=Class HD and progress them as the monster. They have lots of dead levels but get their own advantages. Gold Dragon is probably the best one for that, since you can turn into a humanoid.Alternate Form is just a feat away for any dragon.

[Tvtyrant]

Alternate Form is just a feat away for any dragon.

Where is the feat that grants alternate form located?

Also, it appears that the vast majority of dragon prcs are designed for epic, and several for late epic. This saddens me.

[ffone]

If you're ignoring LA then, IIRC, gold dragon is almost unequivocally the best...IIRC it tends to have the best Str, Con and size for its HD, and the highest speed (and swims). I scanned this once when making an Effigy, since their cost is a function only of HD and size, and so the gold dragon was a better buy than almost every monster in SRD. (Effigies, like most Construct templates, lose a lot from the base creature, so strength, natural attack array, and speed modes are most of what's left over. And the gold dragon has other good stuff like the large breath die, and the alternate form which only the silver and bronze sahre.)

IMO you shouldn't ignore the level adjustments. The "but a Tier 1 caster is better" is such an upwardly-defined way of calibrating things - the dragons *will* leave everyone else (fighter-types) in the dust. It's basically saying "every non-full-spellcaster in this campaign will be a True Dragon."

If the Tier Imbalance is *actually* causing a big issue in your group (as opposed to being a wedge argument for massive powerups for the sake of powerups) then think of something to balance it generally.

[Tvtyrant]

If you're ignoring LA than gold dragon is almost unequivocally the best...IIRC it tends to have the best Str, Con and size for its HD, and the highest speed.

IMO you shouldn't ignore the level adjustments. The "but a Tier 1 caster is better" is such an upwardly-defined way of calibrating things - the dragons *will* leave everyone else (fighter-types) in the dust. It's basically saying "every non-full-spellcaster in this campaign will be a True Dragon."

But then I would have to ban Totemists, Binders, Chameleon, ToB, and any other source of tier 3s out there. I agree that in a party of monks and fighters this would be unfair, but my group tends towards Druids and Sorcs anyways. And upward adjustment is just as valid as downward adjustment IMO; antithetical to each other maybe, but valid just the same.

[ffone]

But then I would have to ban Totemists, Binders, Chameleon, ToB, and any other source of tier 3s out there. I agree that in a party of monks and fighters this would be unfair, but my group tends towards Druids and Sorcs anyways. And upward adjustment is just as valid as downward adjustment IMO; antithetical to each other maybe, but valid just the same.

Who said anything about banning?

There are lots of other methods out there (like differential point buy or certain gestalts; IIRC Person_Man had a thread) which seem much more nuanced than "you can be a certain type of uber beatstick monster, or be left behind".

If your group wants a True Dragons and Casters campaign, that's fine with me....but I get the feeling that many of the threads like this one are posed as 'questions' ("would this houserule or bit of homebrew be legit?") which are fishing for a confirmatory answer (i.e. seeking social validation for an already-decided conclusion that they're going to do a big power-up) rather than actually pursuing interest improvements to the game design.

[Tvtyrant]

Who said anything about banning?

There are lots of other methods out there (like differential point buy or certain gestalts; IIRC Person_Man had a thread) which seem much more nuanced than "you can be a certain type of uber beatstick monster, or be left behind".

I do see your point, but at this particular juncture I am more interested in where this would place the dragon relative to the other classes then if it is fair. Its not an actual "I am" so much as "could I." Tier 3 seems about right, which is where I like most classes anyway.

In actual play there would be a number of houserules that boost below tier 3s up to it and nerfs that pull tier 1s down to it (I tend to leave sorcs alone though, they always seem to be blasty types anyways).

Actually limiting it to Copper Dragons seems a good idea, since they max at large and have much lower strength. Then give them a switchable breathe to which form they like.

[Greenish]

Where is the feat that grants alternate form located?Dragons of Eberron.

[Tvtyrant]

If your group wants a True Dragons and Casters campaign, that's fine with me....but I get the feeling that many of the threads like this one are posed as 'questions' ("would this houserule or bit of homebrew be legit?") which are fishing for a confirmatory answer (i.e. seeking social validation for an already-decided conclusion that they're going to do a big power-up) rather than actually pursuing interest improvements to the game design.

Removing earlier post. Go ahead and believe whatever you want mate.

[ffone]

Removing earlier post. Go ahead and believe whatever you want mate.

Don't take it personally! It's not like I'm gonna go tell your DM not to let you play a true dragon for ECL = RHD. You were "wondering what the playground thought," which I figured included differing opinions.

Look at it this way - if you convince your DM to go for this, and it turns out alright, now you have a wedge for asking for a big power-up for some humanoid-race melee-type character you might want to play after that! (You can use the "why should every beatstick in our campaign have to be a true dragon or get left far behind?" question I posed).

[mootoall]

Isn't the tier system simply meant to show character balance against itself? I mean, your argument becomes "Why should I have to play a Warblade every time I want to be a beatstick" if it's found that dragons are Tier 3. I personally think that, for an all-dragons campaign, you should ignore RHD and LA completely, and simply advance them in category as they reach th appropriate class HD. After all, the parties will be balanced internally- it's simply a matter of making their adventures a challenge for them.

[Zaydos]

For red dragon if you reduce its LA by 3 it is still not as good as a crusader in combat, but seems roughly tier 3 (flight, better skills, better saves). You could probably drop their LA completely.

For the metallic dragons it's rougher; mostly because they have more stuff for roughly equivalent LAs. Silver has at-will paralysis breath, alternate form, better mental stats. Brass has sleep breath. Even repulsion breath is fairly useful. Gold is just a physical beat-stick and by the time you can play a wyrmling gold that +6 to Str means losing 5th level maneuvers if you keep them with +1 LA (+7 natural armor helps but no armor proficiencies hurts).

Generally, though, a dragon from Dragon Cohort (ECL = Character Level +1) is worse than a cohort from Leadership (ECL = Character Level -2) so -3 LA should be appropriate, but be careful with some such as Silver (paralysis leaves foes helpless) and Brass (sleep leaves foes helpless).

For an all dragon campaign metallics are better than chromatics (better casting, mental stats, and breath weapons), and if you go out from Core there's some dragons that are abnormally good (example shadow dragon).

[ffone]

Isn't the tier system simply meant to show character balance against itself? I mean, your argument becomes "Why should I have to play a Warblade every time I want to be a beatstick" if it's found that dragons are Tier 3. I personally think that, for an all-dragons campaign, you should ignore RHD and LA completely, and simply advance them in category as they reach th appropriate class HD.


*Especially* in an all-dragons campaign I would not recommend ignoring the LAs - if you do, you're more likely to find that some colors are Just Better than others since they'll have better stats for a given HD (probably Gold will be best for stats and size and speed, or maybe Silver for 2nd best stats and the paralysis breath as the poster above said) and you'll end up all wanting to play the same colors, or having bad balance.

It's de rigeur at the Playground to gripe about LAs being OMG AWFUL, but it's not like making them all 0 will be better balanced.


After all, the parties will be balanced internally- it's simply a matter of making their adventures a challenge for them.

That's always been curious to me about a typical Playground philosophy - it's a high-op crowd who are always dropping references to how skilled at optimization and tactics they are and how they can easily cream anything at a much higher CR than their party....and then the same poster will go off on how they need a big power-up. There are far fewer threads on how to moderate the supposed omnipotence of full casters.

"Nerfing" leaves a much worse psychological taste in the mouth than "boosting", but one's not necessarily much different than the other if you scale the difficulty of the challenges and enemies accordingly. For example, since Level Adjustments are ubiquitously regarded as Unacceptably Horrible for full casters, give the full casters 1 LA every X class levels, or something. Other people have thought more about this and can give better suggestions.

[Tvtyrant]

Look at it this way - if you convince your DM to go for this, and it turns out alright, now you have a wedge for asking for a big power-up for some humanoid-race melee-type character you might want to play after that!

I am the DM, and I don't think I have ever DMed a group that didn't have someone who wanted to play a dragon.


(You can use the "why should every beatstick in our campaign have to be a true dragon or get left far behind?" question I posed).
Again, I'm not looking for a "power up," I am interested in where it lies along the spectrum.

[Marnath]

*Especially* in an all-dragons campaign I would not recommend ignoring the LAs - if you do, you're more likely to find that some colors are Just Better than others since they'll have better stats for a given HD (probably Gold will be best for stats and size and speed, or maybe Silver for 2nd best stats and the paralysis breath as the poster above said) and you'll end up all wanting to play the same colors, or having bad balance.


Well, for the stats part, you could just give the lesser species a nicer point buy. There's a character generator online that you can make dragons with. Here it is (http://www.pathguy.com/dragons.htm). I'm assuming it's ok, but if that violates some sort of copyright I'll delete the link.