Skirmish/Ranged Precision synergy?

[Feytalist]

Hi. So I was playing around with the idea of an archer sharp-shooter character, built around the Order of the Bow Initiate from the CW. I was going through my base class options, Fighter being the obvious and a human Ranger also possible within 6 levels. Then I thought about the Scout's skirmish ability.

Will skirmish work with ranged precision? Skirmish simply requires one to move at least 10 feat to get the bonuses. And ranged precision uses a single attack, hence a standard action. I cannot find any reason that the two can't combine to form a +Xd6+Yd8 bonus per single shot...

Granted this build will be next to useless against anything that is immune to critical hits, and "flurry of arrows" combat is out. It just seems like a nice match.

Am I overlooking something obvious?

[Eldariel]

They work together just fine; you get to move and plop one arrow. Only problem is, Order of the Bow Initiate is horrible. You have to take Rapid Shot to enter and you're virtually always better served with a Rapid Shot full attack (without range limits) than the precision-induced range limited snipe shot.

Unfortunately, much as I like the idea of a sniper, 3.5's Order of the Bow Initiate is quite possibly the worst class ever written for the job, losing to NPC class Warrior in efficiency since full BAB full attack with Rapid Shot is going to beat OotBI (being limited in range to boot; proper Sniper should be able to shoot further than at the point blank range).

[Curmudgeon]

Skirmish only works within 30' normally. (Telling Blow triggers skirmish/sneak attack on any critical hit, so that's an exception.) You can take the Ranged Skirmisher feat (Dragon # 346, page 87) to extend the range limit for skirmish to 60'.

[Hyfigh]

If you want more precision damage there are a few tricks...
And Elf with the Otherwordly feat is an outsider. This allows you to polymorph into a Kelvezu (is this the right outsider? The one with +8d6 SA...).
Alternative to an Elf with Otherwordly, you can always use other tricks to gain the outsider type. Unapproachable East introduces a polymorph based spell that sets your type to outsider for it's duration. Couple that with Polymorph and you're golden for this same trick.
Add in Hunters Eye and you can get anywhere from 3d6 (normally Ranger CL) to 4d6 with practiced spellcaster.
(Obviously, Mystic Ranger works better here)
These tricks combined can turn out a reasonable amount of additional SA.
Add in Improved Skirmish to get another 2d6 to your skirmish.
Use a now with the splitting property, and greater multishot to get somewhere around 8 arrows.

[Pechvarry]

If you want more precision damage there are a few tricks...
And Elf with the Otherwordly feat is an outsider. This allows you to polymorph into a Kelvezu (is this the right outsider? The one with +8d6 SA...).
Alternative to an Elf with Otherwordly, you can always use other tricks to gain the outsider type. Unapproachable East introduces a polymorph based spell that sets your type to outsider for it's duration. Couple that with Polymorph and you're golden for this same trick.
Add in Hunters Eye and you can get anywhere from 3d6 (normally Ranger CL) to 4d6 with practiced spellcaster.
(Obviously, Mystic Ranger works better here)
These tricks combined can turn out a reasonable amount of additional SA.
Add in Improved Skirmish to get another 2d6 to your skirmish.
Use a now with the splitting property, and greater multishot to get somewhere around 8 arrows.

I understand the stormwind fallacy and all that, but polymorphing into a better archer is a horribly blatant power-grab with an extremely specific flavor. I can't imagine people using this trick more than once in their lives.

--
OP's suggestion is fine and works well -- especially if you don't have many means of getting cheap magic arrows. But the PrC is still terribly weak.

I would suggest you convince your DM to drop the Rapid Shot prereq, make the standard action shot combine-able with Shot on the Run, and if you ask really nicely, give OotBW's an ability that lets them double how far away they can be when dealing precision damage.

[Hyfigh]

And a character built around trying to be a phenominal archer shouldn't do everything within their power to do this because...? :smallconfused:
I whole-heartedly understand not doing something like this if the rest of your party doesn't optimize to this degree, but seriously... You're statement is all encompassing. Just because you and your group don't play high-op games doesn't mean that nobody does. This is no more powerful than any uber charger ever made.

[Diarmuid]

Just a note, splitting does not duplicate precision based damage like SA/Skirmish.

[Curmudgeon]

Just a note, splitting does not duplicate precision based damage like SA/Skirmish.
It does indeed when that's allowed. That includes on all full attacks, or when specifically allowed (as by Greater Manyshot). From Rules Compendium on page 42:
A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

[Diarmuid]

I'm sorry, I left off the capital S from Splitting when I was referring to the enhancement that can be applied to magic weapons that was mentioned by Pechvarry.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm sorry, I left off the capital S from Splitting.
Not to worry; I understand that you're referring to the ranged weapon special ability in Champions of Ruin on page 42. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow or bolt with Splitting. Since you may apply precision damage to each separately rolled attack when you either make a full attack or use the Greater Manyshot feat, each successful hit adds any applicable precision damage.

[Diarmuid]

I dont have access to my books at the moment, but I thought the Splitting description specifically stated that precision only applied to one of the arrows per attack.

Even if it doesnt, while you are correct about Grtr Manyshot allowing for precision on multiple attacks, this is the deviation from the norm for volley style attacks and shouldnt be used as a precedent for how other rules should be interpreted.

Full attacking is it's own beast in and of itself and doesnt really come into play as each attack is resolved as its own separate instance.

[Curmudgeon]

I dont have access to my books at the moment, but I thought the Splitting description specifically stated that precision only applied to one of the arrows per attack.
Sorry, but I just checked. You must be thinking of something else, like the Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot) feat, which does have such a restriction. Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), on the other hand, specifically allows precision damage on every arrow.

[Diarmuid]

If you look up Volley type attacks, 1x precision is the norm. Manyshot acts per the norm, I know Grtr allows for it, hence it being the exception.

Guess I was mistaken on the specific wording of the Splitting ability tho. Maybe I just assumed it worked like the Master Thrower "palm throw" ability which only allows for precision on one of the attacks (per the errata I believe).

[Feytalist]

Regarding the damage output, I made some calculations and it seems on average the precision-based damage (adding skirmish and ranged precision into the mix) does ever-so-slightly more than rapid shot on higher levels. I think it was something like 2.5 damage per round more. That's hardly much, but still.

Greater Manyshot is of course part of the build. And the capstone of OotBI does extend precision-based damage to 60'. I'm not too worried about range, as the archer will be able to fire into melee anyway.

The magical properties of the bow is obviously open to question, but splitting is an option. I'm also not too worried about optimization, my group is fairly low-OP.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. We all like to try archer builds from time to time. I didn't want to go the cleric archer route again, as the last time I played it it was... boring. This one seems a bit more fun.

[Eldariel]

Regarding the damage output, I made some calculations and it seems on average the precision-based damage (adding skirmish and ranged precision into the mix) does ever-so-slightly more than rapid shot on higher levels. I think it was something like 2.5 damage per round more. That's hardly much, but still.

Greater Manyshot is of course part of the build. And the capstone of OotBI does extend precision-based damage to 60'. I'm not too worried about range, as the archer will be able to fire into melee anyway.

The magical properties of the bow is obviously open to question, but splitting is an option. I'm also not too worried about optimization, my group is fairly low-OP.

Greater Manyshot does not work with Ranged Precision, though, since it's a standard action to use Ranged Precision and a standard action to use Ranged Precision; it's either-or. It works with Skirmish just fine, though. Also, Greater Manyshot has a 30' range limit that cannot be lifted.

Though even if it did, well, I can only assume you had no sources of bonus damage for Rapid Shot since it should consistently outdamage Greater Manyshot-based Skirmish (notably, Haste/Boots of Speed/Speed-weapon/similar is a 6th attack for Rapid Shot and things like Knowledge Devotion, Ranged Weapon Mastery and such are applied more consistently).


Thanks for all the feedback so far. We all like to try archer builds from time to time. I didn't want to go the cleric archer route again, as the last time I played it it was... boring. This one seems a bit more fun.

I doubt it being more fun if monotonity was the reason you didn't enjoy Cleric Archer. If anything, Scout is even more restricted; every round you move and Greater Manyshot. That's literally all you do. I prefer martial archers since they tend to have few more options, especially with Ranger-spells in the mix. Every Skirmish character I've played has been dreadfully boring in combat.

[Quietus]

And a character built around trying to be a phenominal archer shouldn't do everything within their power to do this because...? :smallconfused:
I whole-heartedly understand not doing something like this if the rest of your party doesn't optimize to this degree, but seriously... You're statement is all encompassing. Just because you and your group don't play high-op games doesn't mean that nobody does. This is no more powerful than any uber charger ever made.

Are you seriously suggesting that in any given campaign, it's *expected* that you should count on your party wizard to turn you into a demon to get a bunch of sneak attack? So what, everyone begs Mr. Wizard for polymorphs so that the Rogue can eleven-headed hydra sneak attack, the archer demonizes himself to gain some sneak attack of his own, and the barb/fighter/frenzied berserker gets turned into a girallion for four-handing his charging weapon? I think this is much more the rare case than the expectation.

[Hyfigh]

Are you seriously suggesting that in any given campaign, it's *expected* that you should count on your party wizard to turn you into a demon to get a bunch of sneak attack? So what, everyone begs Mr. Wizard for polymorphs so that the Rogue can eleven-headed hydra sneak attack, the archer demonizes himself to gain some sneak attack of his own, and the barb/fighter/frenzied berserker gets turned into a girallion for four-handing his charging weapon? I think this is much more the rare case than the expectation.

I made no presumption in my post. The build I presented was designed with Mystic Ranger and the feat Sword of the Arcane Order in mind - self-sufficient regarding the specific spells I was refering to. Pechvarry made mention of how that build was over optimized. I am simply pointing out that making a build that is good at a specific job is not something out of the ordinary in many games. Again, this build is "archery can poke stuff with arrows well", just as an uber-charger is "sword-swings turn stuff to goo". :smallannoyed:

Likewise, to directly address your post... Um. Yes? It is plenty within reason to expect your Wizard to polymorph Mr. Rogue into a many-headed hydra for super-sneak-attack advantage if the situation calls for it. Sure, the show-boating Wizard can take all the glory and finish the encounter by himself, but what does that have to do with anything at all?

Maybe I'm failing to see your point, though... :smallconfused:

Edit: Bah, whatever. I'm not derailing this thread. Consider that my last post on the subject.

[Diarmuid]

It just seems counterintuitive for the archer to want to do everything in their power to be awesome, including having the wizard polymorph them, but not assume the wizard is wanting to be as awesome as possible and simply winnign the fight.

[Hyfigh]

Mystic Ranger increases spell progression of the normal Ranger, at a (relatively speaking) menial cost. Add in Sword of the Arcane Order and you don't need the Wizard at all.

Edit: This means that, oh, hey look at that! The Wizard can still win each encounter on his own. This specific situation is seperate from the other issue addressed. And who says that the Rogue needs ask the Wizard? What of UMD. But, again, this particular argument has nothing to do with this thread. The OP was asking for Skirmished and Ranged Precision synergy. It was pointed out that they don't synergize that well. I offered an alternative solution. I apologize for offering an optimized solution. If the OP doesn't like it, they're welcome to tone it down, or ignore it altogether...

[Diarmuid]

Likewise, to directly address your post... Um. Yes? It is plenty within reason to expect your Wizard to polymorph Mr. Rogue into a many-headed hydra for super-sneak-attack advantage if the situation calls for it.

Was specifically responding to that part of your post.

[Hyfigh]

Was specifically responding to that part of your post.

Understood. My bad.

[Pechvarry]

I made no presumption in my post. The build I presented was designed with Mystic Ranger and the feat Sword of the Arcane Order in mind - self-sufficient regarding the specific spells I was refering to. Pechvarry made mention of how that build was over optimized.

Whoah, let me clear up some confusion right here: Polymorphing into another creature for stats is what I take issue with. I can't say I've ever seen this character in literature -- which doesn't mean it's a bad character idea. Indeed, it could be a pretty neat one. But how many "archers that turn into demons" can you have at your gaming table before you're tired of Polymorph? It's an extremely specific fluff and incredibly hard to re-fluff while you're at it.

Sorry for seeming like I was knee-jerking at anyone trying to do more than 12 damage/turn. That was not the intention.

[Feytalist]

Heh, I quite like the demon archer idea, but that will never fly at my table. As I said, we are pretty low-op, by choice. In fact, I've never even seen anything other than the "straight up" builds that WotC seem to have had in mind when designing the game.

That said, I have decided to try the Mystic Ranger, if only for the slightly more leeway the spells provide. As everyone has stated so succinctly, OotBI sucks.

I still like skirmish though.

[Telok]

if critters that are immune to skirmish are a concern then Swift Hunter and a level of ranger can help.

Add your Ranger and Scout levels together to determine the value of your Skirmish bonuses –and- your
effective Ranger level for determining the number and value of your Favored Enemies. In addition, your
Skirmish bonus damage applies to your Favored Enemies even if it is normally immune to such damage.


Also there is a Scout variant from Dragon #346 p87
It loses movement and AC bonuses for the skirmish damage at any range.

Sniper Shot +Nd6 – as a Full Round Action (that does not allow a 5’ Step), make a single shot with a projectile weapon. If it hits no matter what the range, it does
+Nd6 damage. The target must be alive, corporeal, vulnerable to Critical Hits, not benefiting from Cover or Concealment, etc.

[Feytalist]

Yeah, I'm going Scout/Swift Hunter as well, should have mentioned that. Should up the damage somewhat.