Roguish Ways

[Garetek]

So we are gonna be dusting off our now moldy 3.5 books and starting a new campaign. Well and good, we have thus far. A Barbarian(only class he ever plays.) A Cleric, A warlock, and me. Well maybe another person if I can convince him that we have better cookies on this side of the dark side and get him to play.

My thoughts on thus far. We are good. A decent tank, a healer, magic, and one to two blank spots. So here is where I come in. I want to play the rogue. All time favorite class to play because you can pretty much do everything everyone else can do, just not as well. Excellent role filler.

Onto the goods.

Looking at doing an Elf. Immune to sleep, is always good as well as the 4 hour rest period means I have plenty of time to keep up with my roguish ways.

We are starting level one, so off the bat I wont be too good won't progress to really good till later levels. My questions,

Poison Use, without negating Sneak attack. I looked at the ACF of the drow, but. I don't want to give up sneak attack. Any thoughts as I try to pry apart the cobweb clogged pages.

[TroubleBrewing]

Avoid Elf. Easily one of the worst base races in 3.5, bested only by Half-Elf.

If you're looking for stealth, go Whisper Gnome, Human, or something with an Int bonus.

Poison Use is pretty far down the page. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff)

[Hyfigh]

+1 to Whisper Gnome.

Edit: If you're not afraid of a LA, go with Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from MMIII. They have some of the same goodies (a few more actually) than Whisper Gnome, can use poison without care of being poisoned in the process, but at a +1 LA. I suggest LA buy-off if you can.

[Doc Roc]

+2 Whisper gnome.

Suggest factotum, like I always do.
Suggest Craven (Feat) for your DPS.
Suggest training UMD, and picking up a few scrolls, maybe a couple wands.

[Garetek]

Afraid I can't take anything with a Level Adjustment seeing as how we have new players(the barb) and the other guy. We are trying to make it simple for them, with additions later on.

I don't currently have the book with the whisper gnome in it. So I guess I will have to go find it somewhere and take a look at it.

All I really want to do is stand back and throw things at people for poison damage. Was thinking shuriken's or something, that way I am close enough to dart in and out of combat for the occasional sneak attack damage and general chaos.

Thanks

[Greenish]

I don't currently have the book with the whisper gnome in it. So I guess I will have to go find it somewhere and take a look at it. Excerpt from Races of Stone. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)

[subject42]

All I really want to do is stand back and throw things at people for poison damage.

I would second Doc_Roc's suggestion of Factotum, if only because they have the ability to control the long-term cost of poison. Unfortunately, without some shenanigans, poison gets absurdly expensive.

Edit: Sorry, Doc_Roc's suggestion. I usually just assume Person_Man when I see Incarnum, Binder, or Factotum.

[Doc Roc]

I would second Doc_Roc's suggestion of Factotum, if only because they have the ability to control the long-term cost of poison. Unfortunately, without some shenanigans, poison gets absurdly expensive.

Edit: Sorry, Doc_Roc's suggestion. I usually just assume Person_Man when I see Incarnum, Binder, or Factotum.

Today has been a good day! Caught up on deadlines, mistaken for my betters, and a chance to be helpful!

[Curmudgeon]

Avoid Elf. Easily one of the worst base races in 3.5 ...

If you're looking for stealth, go Whisper Gnome, Human, or something with an Int bonus.
If you want something with an INT bonus, how about Elf? There are many racial variants, and you can pick the ones that help with your character development. I like the Silvanesti Elf for a Rogue specifically because it gets bonuses to both INT and DEX. Garetek already pointed out the extra time each night which the race provides, and which a smart player can use to advantage. Also the race gives longbow proficiency, which betters the normal Rogue shortbow in both damage and range.

For poison use and throwing shuriken, though, the race doesn't provide any particular benefit. (Not that I'd recommend either of those; the cost/benefit analysis of poison says it's a suboptimal tactic, and shuriken are very poor ranged weapons.)

[Garetek]

Okay, so shuriken is out. Long bow from an elf would be nice, to sit way back and just snipe things to death with either stat drains or damage.

But whisper gnome seems heck of a way to go. Lots of inherint roguish ways built into the class, just would need to solve the poising issue. Or simply scrap that and go for as much damage as possible without poison.

[Garetek]

+2 Whisper gnome.

Suggest factotum, like I always do.
Suggest Craven (Feat) for your DPS.
Suggest training UMD, and picking up a few scrolls, maybe a couple wands.

to make sure I am tracking right.
Factotum-Dunegounscape I think?
Craven- For the +1 damage/level for sneak attack.
UMD- Use Magic Device

[subject42]

Lots of inherint roguish ways built into the class, just would need to solve the poising issue. Or simply scrap that and go for as much damage as possible without poison.

Look at some of the borderline exploits available with the Factotum and the creation line of spells. I'm sure you can find a few references to it here on this board.

[Curmudgeon]

to make sure I am tracking right.
Factotum-Dunegounscape I think?
Craven- For the +1 damage/level for sneak attack.
UMD- Use Magic Device
That's Dungeonscape for the Factotum, starting on page 14. Note that these things don't combine very well. Craven only applies to sneak attack as a class feature, which Factotum lacks. Because Factotums have Arcane Dilettante, they typically use their spell-like abilities rather than ativate magic items with Use Magic Device.

[Greenish]

But whisper gnome seems heck of a way to go. Lots of inherint roguish ways built into the class, just would need to solve the poising issue. Or simply scrap that and go for as much damage as possible without poison.Poison Use can be gained with a feat, or you could invest into Assassination weapons to avoid poisoning yourself.

Here's the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0).

[ffone]

Lesser planetouched tiefling is a good rogue, like elf but better (no Con penalty, instead get a Cha penalty you don't care about since you get +2 Bluff, +2 Int, darkvision and other stuff). The Int bonus puts its skills on par with a human's, so it's a choice of "human bonus feat and no Cha penalty, or +2 Dex and other stuff". The Int bonus will also improve damage if you do the swashbuckler Daring Outlaw thing. And with the tiefling ability and skill mods you have a net +1 Bluff, +3 Hide, -1 other Cha skills, +1 other Dex or Int skills, which is favorable for a rogue.

Darkvision is more important to a rogue than any other class since concealment negates sneak attack, and not carrying a lantern helps you be a scout and make ambushes (but don't get too far out from your buddies!).

If you don't have PGtF, it's the same as SRD tiefling except no level adjustment, and Humanoid (planetouched) type instead of Outsider (native).

[Garetek]

So, if I did the ACF Drow Rogue, would that not give me the poison making feat, and simply loose the ability to go out and search for traps?

I don't have Dotu, or I would not be asking.

[Curmudgeon]

So, if I did the ACF Drow Rogue, would that not give me the poison making feat, and simply loose the ability to go out and search for traps?

I don't have Dotu, or I would not be asking.
No. The ACF is Poison Use, and provides no mechanism for you to make poison, or to avoid poisoning yourself while making poison. It also doesn't keep you from accidentally poisoning yourself if you roll a 1 on an attack after you've poisoned a weapon. Poison Use merely makes it safe for you to apply poison to a weapon; that's all it does.

[Garetek]

No. The ACF is Poison Use, and provides no mechanism for you to make poison, or to avoid poisoning yourself while making poison. It also doesn't keep you from accidentally poisoning yourself if you roll a 1 on an attack after you've poisoned a weapon. Poison Use merely makes it safe for you to apply poison to a weapon; that's all it does.

So still take the ranks of craft poison, no problem there. And now I can safely apply my poisons that I make to my weapons. Minus the above listed issues, of poisoning while crafting, or rolling a one on a attack.

[Garetek]

Or should I just spend a feat on Master of Poisons and call it done?

[NNescio]

Lesser planetouched tiefling is a good rogue, like elf but better (no Con penalty, instead get a Cha penalty you don't care about since you get +2 Bluff, +2 Int, darkvision and other stuff). The Int bonus puts its skills on par with a human's, so it's a choice of "human bonus feat and no Cha penalty, or +2 Dex and other stuff". The Int bonus will also improve damage if you do the swashbuckler Daring Outlaw thing. And with the tiefling ability and skill mods you have a net +1 Bluff, +3 Hide, -1 other Cha skills, +1 other Dex or Int skills, which is favorable for a rogue.

Darkvision is more important to a rogue than any other class since concealment negates sneak attack, and not carrying a lantern helps you be a scout and make ambushes (but don't get too far out from your buddies!).

If you don't have PGtF, it's the same as SRD tiefling except no level adjustment, and Humanoid (planetouched) type instead of Outsider (native).

What about a Dragonborn Grey Elf? -2 STR and +2 INT, and can get a a choice of a breath weapon (combines nicely with Entangling Exhalation), flight (at higher HDs), or blindsense/blindsight (at higher HDs).

It does have some roleplaying restrictions though.

[ffone]

What about a Dragonborn Grey Elf? -2 STR and +2 INT, and can get a a choice of a breath weapon (combines nicely with Entangling Exhalation), flight (at higher HDs), or blindsense/blindsight (at higher HDs).

It does have some roleplaying restrictions though.

Oh neat, where's that from? Races of the Dragon?

I also vaguely recall some feat for dragon-y characters that converted sneak attack damage to fire damage? If that bypassed crit immunity it would be great (if not, then I'm not sure of the purpose, since fire resistance is at least as common as damage reduction to things other than /magic, and if your base damage will be soaking up most of the DR anyway).

[Curmudgeon]

Or should I just spend a feat on Master of Poisons and call it done?
That would be my choice, since you get a substantial speed-up to weapon poisoning from that feat. Plus trapfinding is a useful skill that you can generally only acquire through class levels, so I'd think twice before trading it away.

[Garetek]

So here is my final thoughts.

Race: Whisper Gnome for inherent rogue spell like abilities and stats and bonus's, like Dark vision, and Low light. No reason for a rogue to have to carry a torch.

Class: Psychic Rogue

Feats:
1) Hidden Talent: Minor Creation
3) Master of Poison
5) EWP Shuriken, or I can simply scrap that and use darts to save on the feat and pick up dark stalker.

From there on look for abilities to increase my chances of getting the poisons on, and stuck in for combat while darting in and out of combat to strike where able for the extra sneak attack.

Sound good?

I think so, but as always open to criticism.

[Person_Man]

I agree that if you want a poison based Skill Monkey, then Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is the way to go. Minor Creation is the only efficient way to create poison at low-mid levels. Mind Cripple (gained at 11th level) is also a great ability.

[Garetek]

So, all well and good. Character sheet in hand, and rules for minor creation read.

But now I am confused. So I "cast" minor creation, and create my x poison of plant based materials and such. Coat up my weapons, but still in theory have a ton of it left.

Spell for minor creation last for an hour at level one. So does that mean that what ever I used is also gone? or what ever is left is gone. I am just trying to make sure that I understand it. I already know I am going to give the DM an aneurism with this character, so simply want to have everything already laid out and what not.

[NNescio]

Oh neat, where's that from? Races of the Dragon?

I also vaguely recall some feat for dragon-y characters that converted sneak attack damage to fire damage? If that bypassed crit immunity it would be great (if not, then I'm not sure of the purpose, since fire resistance is at least as common as damage reduction to things other than /magic, and if your base damage will be soaking up most of the DR anyway).

Races of the Dragon, and also available (mostly) here. ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b)

As for the feat, it is Dragonfire Strike, from Dragon Magic, and it works for most precision damage sources. It doesn't bypass crit immunity due to the "when you gain extra damage from a sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish" clause, but one with the proper Draconic Heritage can gain access to sonic damage instead. (force damage is right out though.)

Good for punching through DR, and the rogue (or anybody with the feat) gains an extra d6 damage die if he chooses to activate this ability, but it still seems a bit underwhelming.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the often overlooked benefits of Elf is the ability to get free Search checks whenever you pass by a secret/concealed door. For a Rogue, who will likely be their 'point man' in a dungeon crawl, this is not to be underestimated if you want to get through in a reasonable amount of time without having to make Search checks every 5'.

You want to use poisons? Assassin is a natural extension from Rogue. Poison Use is available there. Done.

As far as making the stuff... hmm...

I suppose we could always get into Fabricate shenanigans, but that might get to be a bit too cheesy...