How can I be an effective Necromancer? [Pathfinder/3.5]

[TraceMeitantei]

So I'm kind of new to the game (I know the rules as good as anyone, but i haven't had a group together yet) and I want to roleplay a necromancer, but by core rules they aren't terribly powerful. I'm mostly using Pathfinder by the way, though I'm allowed access to any 3.5 and 3e material (within reason - I doubt the Book of Deity Classes Available To Lv1 Characters would get past the DM).

So what do i need to do to optimally tweak my character and to efficiently play that necromancer? Are there any particularly powerful builds I'm not seeing?

[mootoall]

Depends on level and what exactly you wanna do with your necromancer, but the standard minionmancers are Clerics, with liberal use of rebuking, or Dread Necromancers post-8th level. A Wizard or Sorcerer makes for the best debuff necromancer.

[TraceMeitantei]

Depends on level and what exactly you wanna do with your necromancer, but the standard minionmancers are Clerics, with liberal use of rebuking, or Dread Necromancers post-8th level. A Wizard or Sorcerer makes for the best debuff necromancer.

I had been planning on playing straight up wizard, MAYBE sorceress - I'm the party's only spellcaster except for the Paladin (who oddly insists he can handle healing) so I need to be able to cover a number of roles, but the debuffing sounds good. I kind of want a strategic character - I always look forward to that one moment where my spell load out perfectly converges into a moment of planning so brilliant that it's straight out of a heist movie, but I don't have the capabilities or need for that right away. I think we're going to be starting from level 1 and going into maybe the LV10 range, early teens at most. The DM insisted that we'd be big on the roleplaying thing, so I thought up a decent necromancer based backstory I want to use already.

[Bulldy]

You could try convincing the DM to let you replace one or more of your class features for the cleric's class feature of [Rebuke Undead]. If I'd be the DM, the [Familiar] class feature in D&D 3rd Edition would be an equal sacrafice for the ability to channel negative energy to command the undead. I don't know if this is available in Pathfinder as the rules for turning/rebuking undead changed in that ruleset.

Creating undead as a wizard is a difficult way to be a necromancer. There are nice debuffing necro spells and you can spice them up with a few ones that aren't necromancy, but their effect is fitting enough - my favourite is the "Evard's Black Tentacle".

Creating your own spells (in-game by your character of course) is another good way to broaden your list of necro spells.

[Gnaeus]

Dread Necromancers are easy and decent. Usually more powerful than an equivalent level sorcerer who restricts himself to necromancy spells or who doesn't put a lot of time into his spell list, but much less powerful than an optimized sorc.

Sorc with undead bloodline is also not bad. The spells are ok, and the bloodline powers are entirely Meh.

Wizard with Necromancy spec is probably the strongest way to go. Ban evocation and enchantment. I like the undead focus, which trades away crummy touch attacks for the ability to bolster undead.

Cleric with the Death domain is also good. The granted power lets you benefit from negative energy channel, which is nice. Not as awesome as a wizard, but very very good.

Another choice that should definitely be checked out is Witch with Plague patron. Witches get a lot of good necro spells on their list, and are even better at debuff stacking than wizards are.

Alchemist is also possible (if you have Ultimate Magic) but is weaker than any full caster.

[TraceMeitantei]

You could try convincing the DM to let you replace one or more of your class features for the cleric's class feature of [Rebuke Undead]. If I'd be the DM, the [Familiar] class feature in D&D 3rd Edition would be an equal sacrafice for the ability to channel negative energy to command the undead. I don't know if this is available in Pathfinder as the rules for turning/rebuking undead changed in that ruleset.

Creating undead as a wizard is a difficult way to be a necromancer. There are nice debuffing necro spells and you can spice them up with a few ones that aren't necromancy, but their effect is fitting enough - my favourite is the "Evard's Black Tentacle".

Creating your own spells (in-game by your character of course) is another good way to broaden your list of necro spells.

The way the Turning and Rebuking rules are set up in Pathfinder is based upon saves rather than checks and we call it Command Undead and you don't get it straight up if you're a cleric, instead you get a channel positive/negative energy effect to harm/heal which you can use to Turn if you purchase a feat... okay there are a few changes, but a nifty one is that necromancers in Pathfinder get the ability to Command Undead as a cleric does from level 1.

I think I saw some rules for the transmuter in the Unearthed Arcana I borrowed which let you change certain spells into transmutation spells. Perhaps I could go for some cool variant of that where I use negative energy to enhance my spell roster? I don't know how receptive the DM is to homebrewing. I suppose that reminds me that I really need to read Unearthed Arcana sometime, but I don't have it on me (though I could get it tomorrow)

I re-read the DM message and I think the campaign is from levels 3 to anywhere between 11 and 13, he says he hasn't quite set in stone the plot events yet. Does knowing the level I start help to dispense advice? I mean, second level spells have to help my chances some? What schools should I prohibit, do you think?

(In Pathfinder, you can still cast spells from prohibited schools, but they cost 2 spell slots.)

[Bulldy]

Don't limit yourself to necro spells only. There are many nice spells that give back the 'mood' of a necro - you only need a new, necro-like description:

1st level spells

Alarm (abj.): You summon spirits of the dead to patrol the spell's area.

Unseen servant (conj.): You call forth the spirit of a dead servant to do your bidding.

Detect secret doors (div.): You summon the spirits of creatures who died at a certain place to tell you about secret passages in the area.

Magic weapon (alt.): You temporarely bind the spirit of a dead warrior to a weapon to help it's wearer in combat.

2nd level spells

Arcane lock (abj.): Baleful spirits prevent the opening of a door.

Fog cloud (conj.): You open a small rift between the physical world and the realm of the dead. Unnatural cloud comes through the opening and covers the area.

Summon swarm (conj.): You call forth the dvellers of the crypts (spiders, centipides, worms) to devour your enemies.

Locate object (div.): You order the dead spirits to look for a specified item.

See invisibility (div.): The spirits of the dead see those who cover themselves with pity magics and let you know about it.

Darkvision (alt.): You borrow the sight of the spirits of the dead to see clearly in the darkness.

Spider climb (alt.): You borrow the crypt dveller spider's ability to walk on walls.

Whispering wind (alt.): You ask a spirit of the dead to transport a message to someone in range.

In the above examples, the only difference is the "flavour text". If it's not enough for your or the DM, you can make these true necro spells with some special components and effects.

Choosing evocation and enchantment as forbidden schools of magic may be the best idea.

[TraceMeitantei]

Don't limit yourself to necro spells only. There are many nice spells that give back the 'mood' of a necro - you only need a new, necro-like description:

1st level spells

Alarm (abj.): You summon spirits of the dead to patrol the spell's area.

Unseen servant (conj.): You call forth the spirit of a dead servant to do your bidding.

Detect secret doors (div.): You summon the spirits of creatures who died at a certain place to tell you about secret passages in the area.

Magic weapon (alt.): You temporarely bind the spirit of a dead warrior to a weapon to help it's wearer in combat.

2nd level spells

Arcane lock (abj.): Baleful spirits prevent the opening of a door.

Fog cloud (conj.): You open a small rift between the physical world and the realm of the dead. Unnatural cloud comes through the opening and covers the area.

Summon swarm (conj.): You call forth the dvellers of the crypts (spiders, centipides, worms) to devour your enemies.

Locate object (div.): You order the dead spirits to look for a specified item.

See invisibility (div.): The spirits of the dead see those who cover themselves with pity magics and let you know about it.

Darkvision (alt.): You borrow the sight of the spirits of the dead to see clearly in the darkness.

Spider climb (alt.): You borrow the crypt dveller spider's ability to walk on walls.

Whispering wind (alt.): You ask a spirit of the dead to transport a message to someone in range.

In the above examples, the only difference is the "flavour text". If it's not enough for your or the DM, you can make these true necro spells with some special components and effects.

Choosing evocation and enchantment as forbidden schools of magic may be the best idea.

Ooh, there's some good ideas.
i'll see to refluffing all my spells. Thanks!

I think I heard of few supplements that boost necromancy and zombies. Libris Mortis and Heroes of Horror are apparently good. I was hoping to have more necromancer stuff in BoVD, but it's mostly fiends. On that note, how often does one prepare Cheat? I mean, did that really deserve to be anything higher than a cantrip?

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration. I still want to tweak my character a tad, but this should do me in any case.

[TraceMeitantei]

Dread Necromancers are easy and decent. Usually more powerful than an equivalent level sorcerer who restricts himself to necromancy spells or who doesn't put a lot of time into his spell list, but much less powerful than an optimized sorc.

Sorc with undead bloodline is also not bad. The spells are ok, and the bloodline powers are entirely Meh.

Wizard with Necromancy spec is probably the strongest way to go. Ban evocation and enchantment. I like the undead focus, which trades away crummy touch attacks for the ability to bolster undead.

Cleric with the Death domain is also good. The granted power lets you benefit from negative energy channel, which is nice. Not as awesome as a wizard, but very very good.

Another choice that should definitely be checked out is Witch with Plague patron. Witches get a lot of good necro spells on their list, and are even better at debuff stacking than wizards are.

Alchemist is also possible (if you have Ultimate Magic) but is weaker than any full caster.

Haven't picked up Ultimate Magic yet. Any good?

[stainboy]

I think I heard of few supplements that boost necromancy and zombies. Libris Mortis and Heroes of Horror are apparently good. I was hoping to have more necromancer stuff in BoVD, but it's mostly fiends. On that note, how often does one prepare Cheat? I mean, did that really deserve to be anything higher than a cantrip?

If you have access to Heroes of Horror, take a look at Archivist. They're basically wizards who cast divine spells, and they can learn spells from any cleric domain. You get the important stuff (Desecrate, Animate Dead, Create Undead) and just about every important other spell is on a domain list somewhere. Their fluff fits necromancy really well too.

Also look at Dread Necromancer in the same book, obviously. But that's already been mentioned.

[Aron Times]

Since no one has asked this yet, do you plan on having lots of undead minions, or do you want to focus on debuffs? You can be a necromancer without ever having animated the dead, as good-aligned characters can be necromancers (animating the dead usually carries the [Evil] descriptor).

Note that the abovementioned options are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I prefer the support mage approach, the famous build known as the Batman Wizard.

[Divide by Zero]

If you're going for undead creation, cleric>archivist. I don't think there's anything on the expanded spell list that can compare with rebuking and domain powers.

[TraceMeitantei]

If you're going for undead creation, cleric>archivist. I don't think there's anything on the expanded spell list that can compare with rebuking and domain powers.

Well how do wizards weigh into the equation in Pathfinder - with their Command/Turn Undead ability?

[TraceMeitantei]

Since no one has asked this yet, do you plan on having lots of undead minions, or do you want to focus on debuffs? You can be a necromancer without ever having animated the dead, as good-aligned characters can be necromancers (animating the dead usually carries the [Evil] descriptor).

Note that the abovementioned options are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I prefer the support mage approach, the famous build known as the Batman Wizard.

I'm mostly a necromancer for roleplaying reasons. The DM has this magic-variant setting all ready to go, where magi closer aligned with the plane of the damned can draw identical powers through the darkness. Or something. I don't know, he gave me a watered down summary and that's my watered down summary of that summary. But the thing is, as long as I'm weilding dark, forbidden powers with a death aesthetic and can remain a good contributer to the team, everything else is gravy. I wouldn't mind a few undead servants, but that's mostly a long term thing.

I have heard of this Batman Wizard. I shall review my notes!

[stainboy]

If you're going for undead creation, cleric>archivist. I don't think there's anything on the expanded spell list that can compare with rebuking and domain powers.

I prefer archivist mostly for fluff reasons. I think of necromancers as wizard types, and an archivist is a wizard with a different spell list. Clerics of gods of death tend to be Saturday morning cartoon villains.

Cleric might be better for pure crunch though. What domains are you looking at for an undead master build? Deathbound (Libris Mortis) and Necromancer (Eberron Campaign Setting) are pretty awesome just from 10 minutes of looking. You could snag Deathbound as an archivist by dipping Contemplative but that's CL 11.

[Coidzor]

Evil or Neutral with Rebuking -> Figure out if DM is going to have much in the way of undead enemies. If so, get Libris Mortis and the DMG in order to get items that let you 1. increase your cleric level in regards to turning (rebuking) and 2. give negative turn resistance to the undead (negative turn resistance continues to apply after nullifying any existing turn resistance to 0, such that a 5 HD, 2 turn resistance undead taking -3 turn resistance should count as a 4 HD undead for purposes of rebuking/commanding/turning/destroying IIRC) like the Lyre of the Restful Soul which you can have a hireling play if you don't have a party bard. (check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195977)for some ideas and possibly some other useful links (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9205.0;wap2))

Sacred Armor/Shield properties are also nice because they give +2 to effective level for turning for each piece of armor/shield you have with the property. If your DM allows dastana/chahar-aina, check and see if he'd let those stack as well.

How feasible any of these options are depends upon your level and how much of your wealth you want to commit into rebuking.

An option always worth considering is to be a spell-stitched Necropolitan with animate dead as a spell-like ability and maybe awaken undead too. Of course, in that case, you don't even need to be a caster to be a pretty capable necromancer (though being a cleric and desecrate+deathbound domain is very nice for getting lots of minions or lots of value per minion)



If you wanna be good and can get homebrew approved, the Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) from these boards is pretty sweet in my eyes.

Edit: If you're interested in rebuking optimization in order to get the good stuff.. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook&post_num=2#338468934).

Here's what I have right now...

Bonuses to effective Cleric level:
Feats:
Improved Turning (PHB): +1 effective level for turning
Divine Energy Focus (Ghostwalk): +2 effective level for destroying/commanding, bonuses to turning check and damage as well

sub total: +3 effective levels for commanding, +1 level if only rebuking

Items:
Sacred(BoED) Dastana(OA, A&EG): +2
Sacred Chahar-aina(OA): +2
Sacred Buckler(2x): +4
Sacred Chain Shirt: +2
Sceptre of the Netherworld (LM): +3
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG): +4
Moonfriend Ring (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft): +3

sub total: +20

*Possibly Ephod of Authority from Magic Item Compendium and Flametouched Holy Symbols from Eberron Campaign Setting would each add a +1, but I seem to recall those as having provisos against rebuking. This also hinges upon me remembering Sacred properly as applying to turning and rebuking.

sub total: +23 (+25 if both of these other items work)


Penalties to Turn Resistance: These do double duty, since a cleric normally has to be 2x the HD+TR of an undead creature to command it, so every level of TR or HD taken away is 2 less cleric levels one has to have in order to command it.

Rod of Defiance(LM): Either sets Turn Resistance at -4 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9205.0;wap2)or gives -4 to Turn Resistance.
Lyre of the Restful Soul(LM): -4 to Turn Resistance

sub total: Either -8 Turn Resistance (So HD - 8, minimum of 1) or -8 to Turn Resistance (HD+TR-8)

So, +37 to effective level if the undead is reduced to effectively one HD, +39 if the whole -8 is applied.

Can't really remember the prices involved offhand though, so I don't know what level much of this is feasible at. And the bucklers and dastana and chahar-aina thing was mostly to just show how much it could be pumped if all those were allowed.

Pretty much would want the thing in Dungeonscape that puts a holy symbol you can use on your armor/shield though.

edit2: Oh, and this is probably only useful for turning undead rather than rebuking/commanding them, but Complete Champion has a bunch of Light of X spells and the Light of Wisdom spell gives a bonus of +1 effective level / 3 CLs, uncapped, so CL boosters would be of some use if so.

[Gnaeus]

Haven't picked up Ultimate Magic yet. Any good?

I haven't read it all yet, only the bits that are relevant to my current characters. But it is available on the PF SRD, so read it for yourself and buy it if you like it.


Stuff...

I think most of your advice is good in 3.5, but remember that rebuking (now Commanding) doesn't work the same in PF. It is pretty much just a will save equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. I don't think most of those items and tricks would be directly applicable without being rewritten by dm.

[Gullintanni]

Items:
Sacred(BoED) Dastana(OA, A&EG): +2
Sacred Chahar-aina(OA): +2
Sacred Buckler(2x): +4
Sacred Chain Shirt: +2
Sceptre of the Netherworld (LM): +3
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG): +4
Moonfriend Ring (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft): +3

sub total: +20


Nitpick: The Sacred enhancement is out of A&EG, page 93. It only increases effective turning level for the purposes of the turning check and does not increase your effective Cleric level for the purposes of turning, so for your purposes, the Sacred enhancement is largely useless. Sorry ><

Otherwise, solid advice.



I think most of your advice is good in 3.5, but remember that rebuking (now Commanding) doesn't work the same in PF. It is pretty much just a will save equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. I don't think most of those items and tricks would be directly applicable without being rewritten by dm.

If this is how turning truly works, then the only things that will work are items that increase your effective Cleric level. Ergo, items like Phylactery of Undead Turning, Scepter of the Netherworld and feats like Improved Turning will be effective in increasing your save DC. Items that decrease Turning Resistance will be ineffective...as save resistance is no longer based on HD.


I prefer archivist mostly for fluff reasons. I think of necromancers as wizard types, and an archivist is a wizard with a different spell list. Clerics of gods of death tend to be Saturday morning cartoon villains.


Blech. I loathe this sentiment, and I'm not sure where it came from, but I see it all the time. Clerics are the arbiters over the ebb and flow over the powers of life and death. Academics view Necromancy as one object as a tool in their belt, whereas Clerics understand Necromancy as flowing out of the forces of life and death. The fluff has Necromancy as being almost purely within the focus of Clerics and their ilk, whereas for Wizards, Necromancy is but a dalliance.

The sole class feature of Clerics is the ability to manipulate positive or negative energy. Power over Life and Death is really all that differentiates them from other spellcasters, besides spell lists. There's no reason a Death-God Cleric has to be focused on villainy and killing. Clerics of Vecna prefer the hoarding of knowledge. Immortality grants one the ability to collect knowledge indefinitely, ergo Necromancy is practical. Murder is unnecessary. Wee Jas is a Death Goddess responsible for the stewardship and veneration of the dead. Neither portfolio supports wholesale murder.

[Gnaeus]

If this is how turning truly works, then the only things that will work are items that increase your effective Cleric level.

Thats how the SRD says it works. I haven't actually seen a command undead check in a pf game yet.

[DGB]

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) is what You're looking for-Batman-wise :smallbiggrin:

Else you might want to look up the "God-wizard". As I understand you would like to Be a battlefield-Controller with undead fluff, so I suggest you Play a wizard with necromancy Not banned. Have fun.:smallyuk:

[HalfDragonCube]

Blech. I loathe this sentiment, and I'm not sure where it came from, but I see it all the time. Clerics are the arbiters over the ebb and flow over the powers of life and death. Academics view Necromancy as one object as a tool in their belt, whereas Clerics understand Necromancy as flowing out of the forces of life and death. The fluff has Necromancy as being almost purely within the focus of Clerics and their ilk, whereas for Wizards, Necromancy is but a dalliance.

The sole class feature of Clerics is the ability to manipulate positive or negative energy. Power over Life and Death is really all that differentiates them from other spellcasters, besides spell lists. There's no reason a Death-God Cleric has to be focused on villainy and killing. Clerics of Vecna prefer the hoarding of knowledge. Immortality grants one the ability to collect knowledge indefinitely, ergo Necromancy is practical. Murder is unnecessary. Wee Jas is a Death Goddess responsible for the stewardship and veneration of the dead. Neither portfolio supports wholesale murder.

Doesn't the wholesale murder come with the 'evil' label? They certainly allow it, unlike good gods.

[Gullintanni]

Doesn't the wholesale murder come with the 'evil' label? They certainly allow it, unlike good gods.

Not necessarily. Rebuking/Commanding is technically speaking, evil. Animate Dead is an evil spell. But you could use both to do nothing but good things. Besides, there are varying forms of evil, even in DnD's arbitrary system. Sometimes evil is Erythnul, the god of Slaughter. Sometimes evil is Vecna, the god of I'm Going To Collect My Secrets and If You Try To Stop Me I'll Eat Your Babies, But Otherwise I'll Pretty Much Leave You Alone. The lesson is, don't get in the way. :smallamused:

Still...my favorite Necromancer Cleric is one who serves Wee Jas. She's not cool with frivolous murder at all. If it serves the purpose of preserving order, she'd allow it, but otherwise, murder generally serves entropy. Generally, that'd be worthy of punishment in her service. Death Magic =/= Evil.

[stainboy]

The sole class feature of Clerics is the ability to manipulate positive or negative energy. Power over Life and Death is really all that differentiates them from other spellcasters, besides spell lists. There's no reason a Death-God Cleric has to be focused on villainy and killing. Clerics of Vecna prefer the hoarding of knowledge. Immortality grants one the ability to collect knowledge indefinitely, ergo Necromancy is practical. Murder is unnecessary.

What's a cleric of Vecna going to do with all that hoarded knowledge? Int 10, no mechanical need to learn spells, no skill points. An archivist or wizard who happens to be a member of the Cult of Vecna would be much more suited to collecting knowledge.

[HalfDragonCube]

Not necessarily. Rebuking/Commanding is technically speaking, evil. Animate Dead is an evil spell. But you could use both to do nothing but good things. Besides, there are varying forms of evil, even in DnD's arbitrary system. Sometimes evil is Erythnul, the god of Slaughter. Sometimes evil is Vecna, the god of I'm Going To Collect My Secrets and If You Try To Stop Me I'll Eat Your Babies, But Otherwise I'll Pretty Much Leave You Alone. The lesson is, don't get in the way. :smallamused:

Still...my favorite Necromancer Cleric is one who serves Wee Jas. She's not cool with frivolous murder at all. If it serves the purpose of preserving order, she'd allow it, but otherwise, murder generally serves entropy. Generally, that'd be worthy of punishment in her service. Death Magic =/= Evil.

Maybe not wholesale, but certainly not nice.

[Gullintanni]

What's a cleric of Vecna going to do with all that hoarded knowledge? Int 10, no mechanical need to learn spells, no skill points. An archivist or wizard who happens to be a member of the Cult of Vecna would be much more suited to collecting knowledge.

On the contrary, Vecna is a collector of obscure and hidden knowledge. Archivists fit that, but there's nothing to prohibit a Cleric of Vecna also fitting that. A Cleric of Vecna might spend his time posing as a Librarian in an Arcane College. He would observe the lore and development of the college, picking out researched spells, legends and myths. He would then share that information with the cult of Vecna.

The problem is that you're trying to write the Cleric out of contention for the role; without realizing that the fluff of a Cleric is mutable based on the deity she worships. A Cleric of Vecna dumps Con, Dex, Str, puts high stats in Int, Wis and Cha.


Maybe not wholesale, but certainly not nice.

Wasn't defending Death gods in general as being 'nice'. Just saying, they're not all necessarily evil, nor are the evil ones necessarily ruthless villains trying to stamp out all that is good. Some are just comfortable doing mean things to get the job done.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Well, if you want A wizard Necromancer who can have lots of Minions there IS a way to do it, though a Cleric still has it easier. there are two little known feats, Song of the Dead and Undead Empathy, that allow a wizard with acsses to enchantment to break his control cap easily and far outpace the cleric as far as undead controlled by curcemventing the controll pool all togther. How is it done? Song of the dead is a metamagic feat that lets you use mind-effecting spells on inteligent undead. The best part? Those spells also become Necromancy spells when prepared with said feat so Spell Focus: Necromancy will give them a boost if you take it.

So, say you have dominate person with a song of the dead attached. Now you can dominate a shadow or wright or vampire or some other inteligent undead that can make spawns and have it go make tons of minions for you. Infinent undead minions right there. It gets even crazier with chain-domination, and while you'll need to be VERY high level to do this you can chain dominate more undead then a cleric can have under his control with one spell. If you can't find enough inteligent undead to do this just make them with the Create Undead line or enervation.(Creatures killed by it rise as wrights, after all.)

As for mindless undead, thats what Undead Empathy is for. It allows you to use Diplomacy on mindless undead. With a good enough Diplomacy skill you can go around using your silver toung to get a bunch of mindless undead under your command. Also, take Undead Leadership for even more undead minions. Further, with Undead Leadership you can make your cohort a Necropolitian Cleric who can provide you with free desecrates and even more undead. All in all with your enthralled inteligent undead, undead leadership mooks and diplomancy-thralled mindless undead the anemic ammount of undead that you can make with animate dead makes no difference since while the cleric can animate and control more undead with animate dead you have a bunch of ways to get undead outside of normal animation spells that the pathfinder cleric has no acssess to.(As he lacks the 3.5e domains which allowed him acssess to spells he would otherwise never get either as domain spells or the divine magician ACF, as well as the deathbound domain power.)

Beyond this, remember that some non-necromancy spells can get you minions too. Shapechange used to turn yourself into a shadow for free spawns is a common and well known one.(Though I don't know if this is possible with the nerfed pathfinder version of the spell.) Likewise, Planar binding spells(which where NOT nerfed in pathfinder) can allow you to bind things with all important spells like animate dead and the ever elusive to arcanists desecrate as SLAs, which can make your life as a necromancer a lot easier.

[Gullintanni]

1. Song of the Dead and Undead Empathy...
So, say you have dominate person...

2. As for mindless undead, thats what Undead Empathy is for.

3. Likewise, Planar binding spells...

1. Can Clerics take Song of the Dead and Undead Empathy? If so, they grab the Domination domain and they can repeat this trick.

2. As for mindless undead, Command Undead. It's a level 2 spell. No need for Undead Empathy. Divine Magician ACF for easy access.

3. Planar Binding requires you to negotiate costs, and Animate Dead, being an instantaneous spell with a permanent effect that has a material casting cost amounts to a long term service...but this does work.

The point here is that in order to bring a Wizard close to parity with a Cleric for undead summoning you have to work orders of magnitude harder. There are ways though.

And on the note of Leadership...this is never worth mentioning. Cleric's can also take leadership, so it affords Wizards no special benefit over a Cleric. Moreover; Clerics tend to have higher CHA scores, ergo they'd make better use of the feat than Wizards would.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Your assuming that we are discussing the 3.5e cleric and wizard here, in which case your statements would be correct. However, the OP specificly said they are using the pathfinder versions of the classes which means clerics have no deathbound domain or any of the 3.5e domains for that matter, which in turn means they can't acssess dominate person and simmilar spells, making song of the dead useless for them as far as grabbing minions gose.

Likewise, command undead(the spell) can only grab one undead at a time and eventually wears off. Undead Empathy can get you undead minions that won't become uncontrolled since you diplomancy-thralled them to yourself which means you have them for life rather then controlled them with a spell that only lasts for a set number of days. Likewise, Undead Empathy dose not require you to burn a spell slot as command undead would meaning that with a high enough diplomacy check it gives you "command undead" as an effect that you can spam ad-nausiam so long as you can make your checks. This allows you to control as many as you want when you want rather then being limited by the duration of a spell and number of spell slots you have.

Oh, and also, the pathfinder Wizard gets rebuke for free if they specalize in necromancy, just so you know.

[Gullintanni]

Your assuming the 3.5e cleric, here. The OP specificly said they are using the pathfinder versions of the classes which means clerics have no deathbound domain or any of the 3.5e domains for that matter, which in turn means they can't acssess dominate person and simmilar spells, making song of the dead useless for them as far as grabbing minions gose. Likewise, command undead(the spell) can only grab one undead at a time and eventually wears off. Undead Empathy can get you undead minions that won't become uncontrolled since you diplomancy-thralled them to yourself which means you have them for life rather then controlled them with a spell that only lasts for a set number of days. Likewise, Undead Empathy dose not require you to burn a spell slot as command undead would meaning that with a high enough diplomacy check it gives you "command undead" as an effect that you can spam ad-nausiam so long as you can make your checks. This alows you to control as many as you want when you want raher then being limited by the duration of a spell and number of spell slots you have. Oh, and also, the pathfinder Wizard gets rebuke for free if they specalize in necromancy, just so you know.

Pathfinder does close the gap a bunch, yes. You'd probably be happier playing a necromancer there.

The OP also specified that they're allowed 3.5 content. I would assume that includes Domains. Song of the Dead is from Dragon Magazine 312 and Undead Empathy is also a 3.5 feat. Assuming that my 3.5 content is prohibited in the OP's pathfinder game though, shouldn't yours be as well? Especially since Dragon Magazine is not allowed at most tables? :smallwink:

If 3.5 content is permitted both of the feats you use to defend the wizard are also available to Clerics. Undead Empathy requires Cha 13 though, so a Cleric is more likely to qualify by default.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I would not be so sure on the allowance of 3.5e domains since Pathfinder domains work differently then 3.5e ones, mainly in the fact that they grant more then one power. Thus, if a DM was to allow 3.5e domains in pathfinder he'd either have to homebrew new extra powers for them or strip the pathfinder domains of their extra powers if he wanted to "ballance" the domains against eachother. Seeing as that is more work my money is on pathfinder clerics not being able to take 3.5e domains, however, the only one who can answer that for sure is the OP.

[Gullintanni]

I would not be so sure on the allowance of 3.5e domains since Pathfinder domains work differently then 3.5e ones, mainly in the fact that they grant more then one power. Thus, if a DM was to allow 3.5e domains in pathfinder he'd either have to homebrew new extra powers for them or strip the pathfinder domains of their extra powers if he wanted to "ballance" the domains against eachother. Seeing as that is more work my money is on pathfinder clerics not being able to take 3.5e domains, however, the only one who can answer that for sure is the OP.

The more likely option, and how I'd run it, would be to say, "You can pick these 3.5 domains but you're going to have to accept that there's only one associated domain power." This, I imagine, is how most DMs would run it if a player adamantly wanted to play with a 3.5 Domain, and the majority of 3.5 content were permitted...but YMMV.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Thats also senseable, but neither of us can make any call on this until we know what the DM of this game rules on pathfinder domains vs. 3.5e domains, and thats something only the OP can answer. Thus, until the OP provides us with the information needed neither of us can debate this inteligently and can only base our arguments on our held assumptions. So, I say we let the OP give us the proper information on this topic and from that point on give them the better option.

[TraceMeitantei]

I would not be so sure on the allowance of 3.5e domains since Pathfinder domains work differently then 3.5e ones, mainly in the fact that they grant more then one power. Thus, if a DM was to allow 3.5e domains in pathfinder he'd either have to homebrew new extra powers for them or strip the pathfinder domains of their extra powers if he wanted to "ballance" the domains against eachother. Seeing as that is more work my money is on pathfinder clerics not being able to take 3.5e domains, however, the only one who can answer that for sure is the OP.

Actually, as I am not the DM, even I'm not in such a position. My DM is off neck-deep in exams, so I'm on my own for the next week to figure a character out. I felt like I was bothering him last time I asked for advice, so it's mostly guess work on my end as I don't want to add to his worries.

I think he did say something about domains though, I'll go check my notes.

Edit: Ah, okay. I think I can take domains if I'm reading this right, since he said that a lot of the domains kind of balance themsleves out or something. As in, Pathfinde rdomains aren't THAT much more powerful than the 3.5 so he doesn't feel teh need to upgrade them. The memo he gave me says taht he'll homebrew on teh fly if need be to balance a game, but not worry too much about it in advance, 'since you never really know what is and isn't balanced until the level 6 character beats the Tarrasque to death with the corpse of a kraken'. Yes, his words, as well as I can decipher from his handwriting. What is it with scientists and their vendetta against legible handwriting?

[Gullintanni]

Edit: Ah, okay. I think I can take domains if I'm reading this right, since he said that a lot of the domains kind of balance themsleves out or something. As in, Pathfinde rdomains aren't THAT much more powerful than the 3.5 so he doesn't feel teh need to upgrade them. The memo he gave me says taht he'll homebrew on teh fly if need be to balance a game, but not worry too much about it in advance, 'since you never really know what is and isn't balanced until the level 6 character beats the Tarrasque to death with the corpse of a kraken'. Yes, his words, as well as I can decipher from his handwriting. What is it with scientists and their vendetta against legible handwriting?

There's a beautiful irony here that linguistics majors tend to share that same trait. :smalltongue:

[TraceMeitantei]

There's a beautiful irony here that linguistics majors tend to share that same trait. :smalltongue:

I think he pulled some self-congratulatory crap once about how the reason that doctors and such have such messy handwriting is taht they are so awesome, and think so quickly taht their hand's can't keep up In otehr words, not being able to write is apparently a mark of status for him.

[Gullintanni]

I think he pulled some self-congratulatory crap once about how the reason that doctors and such have such messy handwriting is taht they are so awesome, and think so quickly taht their hand's can't keep up In otehr words, not being able to write is apparently a mark of status for him.

Well...I work for the federal government and my handwriting is immaculate. Judge appropriately. Keep in mind, correlation is not causation. :smalltongue:

I guess to stay on topic...there are three popular archetypes of Necromancer.

1. Dread Necromancer - Minion Masters. These guys spit out hordes. Literal hordes. Their level 8 ability makes Cleric minionmancers cry in a corner, while Wizards are typically much further behind than that.

2. Clerics - Multi-role. These are great for Minions. They're also versatile caster necromancers.

3. Wizards - Great for all the reasons Wizards are great. Not as great for minionmancy, though competent. They really shine when blasting out necromancies, battlefield controls, debuffs and Uttercold* evocations.

*Uttercold Assault Necromancers have this thing they do where they spit out walls of fire all over the place that heal their Skeletal Dragons.

There are ways to twist any of these three archetypes to fit any purpose if you're willing to work hard enough, but you're going to lose versatility everywhere that isn't necromancy.

Of the three effective archetypes...which would you prefer to play?

[TraceMeitantei]

Well...I work for the federal government and my handwriting is immaculate. Judge appropriately. Keep in mind, correlation is not causation. :smalltongue:

I guess to stay on topic...there are three popular archetypes of Necromancer.

1. Dread Necromancer - Minion Masters. These guys spit out hordes. Literal hordes. Their level 8 ability makes Cleric minionmancers cry in a corner, while Wizards are typically much further behind than that.

2. Clerics - Multi-role. These are great for Minions. They're also versatile caster necromancers.

3. Wizards - Great for all the reasons Wizards are great. Not as great for minionmancy, though competent. They really shine when blasting out necromancies, battlefield controls, debuffs and Uttercold* evocations.

*Uttercold Assault Necromancers have this thing they do where they spit out walls of fire all over the place that heal their Skeletal Dragons.

There are ways to twist any of these three archetypes to fit any purpose if you're willing to work hard enough, but you're going to lose versatility everywhere that isn't necromancy.

Of the three effective archetypes...which would you prefer to play?

I took a minute too look up the Dread Necromancer ability in question, and I'll admit that is one shiny ability, though perhaps not entirely appropriate to the party's needs... Well not in my DM's game.

Hmm... For my local game, from all I've seen, I guess it has to be the Wizard that I'll be going for. I have to cover a lot of roles and I kind of like teh way wizards handle, preparing spells and whatnot. Yeah, for this game a necromancer has to be it.

There's this other character I'm working on, but I think some of your advise here might be transferable.

[TraceMeitantei]

I was wondering if you could also, since we're here, help me out with this character I'm making for a play-by-post game on here. I found a bit on Savage Species and got the inspiration to use a monster PrC for this evil campaign on here. Emancipated Spawn is a bit tricky to wrap my head around though, since I've not gotten entirely used to this whole level adjustment system and whatnot. The basic concept is similar to this, but with an effective starting level of 7. So a weird Drad Necromancer-Wraith thing.

[Gullintanni]

I took a minute too look up the Dread Necromancer ability in question, and I'll admit that is one shiny ability, though perhaps not entirely appropriate to the party's needs... Well not in my DM's game.

Hmm... For my local game, from all I've seen, I guess it has to be the Wizard that I'll be going for. I have to cover a lot of roles and I kind of like teh way wizards handle, preparing spells and whatnot. Yeah, for this game a necromancer has to be it.

There's this other character I'm working on, but I think some of your advise here might be transferable.


To that end, IMO, go Uttercold Assault Necromancer. You get to Animate Dead...not as well as a cleric but who cares... because you can blast your undead back to full health.

Take Energy Substitution and Lord of the Uttercold feats. This allows you to cast evocations made of Cold and Negative energy. Negative energy heals undead. Skeletons are immune to cold...see where this is going? For undead that aren't immune to cold, no problem. Half of the damage they take is cold, the other half is negative, so they take effectively zero damage from your evocations. Bonus points if you can make yourself undead.

Take the Arcane Disciple feat for access to the Desecrate spell, allowing you to add a little substance to your undead. Focus on animating big things. Also, check out Draconomicon. This allows you to bypass the 20-HD limit when animating zombie/skeletal dragons.

Grab the necromancy specialization that allows you to rebuke, and command appropriate feat for Pathfinder. Drop enervations on everything in sight and create your own private Wight army...that's unhurt by your evocations.

From this point on, you should have Wights at your disposal energy draining your enemies. You should be dropping Split Ray Enervations on people, and battle-field controlling as a wizard does. When your undead are hurt, throw out a negative energy Fireball or three to heal them up to full.

[Gnaeus]

Just to point it out again, Witch (w/ plague patron) does a lot of what the Wizard does, and does big parts of it better. It is certainly worth a look in a PF setting.

[Gullintanni]

I was wondering if you could also, since we're here, help me out with this character I'm making for a play-by-post game on here. I found a bit on Savage Species and got the inspiration to use a monster PrC for this evil campaign on here. Emancipated Spawn is a bit tricky to wrap my head around though, since I've not gotten entirely used to this whole level adjustment system and whatnot. The basic concept is similar to this, but with an effective starting level of 7. So a weird Drad Necromancer-Wraith thing.

I don't know anything really about SS, so you're sort of on your own there...sorry.


Just to point it out again, Witch (w/ plague patron) does a lot of what the Wizard does, and does big parts of it better. It is certainly worth a look in a PF setting.

I don't know much about PF in general so I defer to this.

[TraceMeitantei]

And I'm back, at last. My computer decided to crash while I went to make tea and I had to let it get cold whille I booted it up and signed in again. I wonder if the possibility of a stable system is a carrot well within Microsoft's capabilities to deliver but which they insist upon weilding much as a carrot on a stick to a donkey, driving us forth to the next upgrade package in the vain hope of ridding the world of teh blue screen of doom, only to buy some overpriced OS and still be stuck with as many bugs as before. Well okay, Windows 7 is a little better than Vista. Rant over.

Your advice on the wizard is very good, though perhaps dependant on a high level which I'm not sure I'll reach. If nothing else, I have a sense of something to work towards.

And as for the Witch, I don't own the Advanced Player's Guide except in teh necbulous sense of occassionally stealing one from a fellow player. But I heard they're good, so I'll read up on them some more. I have to wonder about rules compatibility there, but we'll see.

[Gnaeus]

It is available on the SRD.

[TraceMeitantei]

It is available on the SRD.

Tell me, what are your thoughts on my higher level EVIL character? (Emaciated Spawn Wraith [or something] Dread Necromancer)

And yes, I did already peak at the Witch class and it looks pretty good, perhaps better than Wizard, though not in pure power.

Also, reading your essay on Practical Optimisation. Fascinating stuff. I know what you mean about theoretical optimisation, my DM has a character sheet somehwere of a level 20 wizard with access to all wizard spells spontaneously - and that was the elast of how broken it was, that's just teh thing taht immediately stood out. I think he also had teh power to counterspell as a free action using spells of level 1 below the countered, and could completely reflect countered spells about twice over.

[grarrrg]

Newly added to the PFsrd is Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/agent-of-the-grave)
Must be Evil, it can be entered with either Divine OR Arcane casting, you lose 1 caster level (it has 4/5 casting), but Inspired Necromancy (Agent levels count as DOUBLE for max undead HD) helps make up for it, and at 3rd all undead you create are created as if under the influence of a Desecrate spell (MORE undead)

Divine entry is quicker than Arcane, but due to stats, Cleric is probably not the best choice. Agent has bonuses based on Cha and Int, nothing for Wis.

Worth a look.

[stainboy]

The problem is that you're trying to write the Cleric out of contention for the role; without realizing that the fluff of a Cleric is mutable based on the deity she worships. A Cleric of Vecna dumps Con, Dex, Str, puts high stats in Int, Wis and Cha.


Fluff-wise there's no reason a character couldn't get power from worshiping Vecna and also be a scholar. Crunch-wise I just don't think the cleric is the class for the job.

Archivist isn't really either, because they don't draw power from their religious convictions and they can't rebuke. I just think it's closer. What we really want is a "Priest of Specific Mythos" but we can't have those anymore.

[Gullintanni]

Fluff-wise there's no reason a character couldn't get power from worshiping Vecna and also be a scholar. Crunch-wise I just don't think the cleric is the class for the job.

Archivist isn't really either, because they don't draw power from their religious convictions and they can't rebuke. I just think it's closer. What we really want is a "Priest of Specific Mythos" but we can't have those anymore.

I'm not sure...with the right domains + rebuking + divine magician, you can build a hell of a necromancer...if you really want the iconic Necromancer, Dread Necro is probably your best option, but it's pretty non-spectacular crunch-wise. Cleric's just got it all.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.:smallsmile:



Your advice on the wizard is very good, though perhaps dependant on a high level which I'm not sure I'll reach. If nothing else, I have a sense of something to work towards.


Lord of the Uttercold comes on-line pretty earlier. The hardest thing to do is waiting out Animate Dead which Wizard's don't see until fourth level spells, or ECL 7. That's the build I'd run if I were you.

[Coidzor]

I would not be so sure on the allowance of 3.5e domains

Sure? No. Provide information on? Yes. For completeness's sake if nothing else, given the nebulous nature of combining 3.5 and Pathfinder.

[stainboy]

Lord of the Uttercold comes on-line pretty earlier. The hardest thing to do is waiting out Animate Dead which Wizard's don't see until fourth level spells, or ECL 7. That's the build I'd run if I were you.

You can fix that with Arcane Disciple, if you don't mind not dumping wisdom. Undeath domain gives you Animate Dead at a proper level and more importantly gives you Desecrate.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.:smallsmile:

Yeah pretty much. I'm just talking about fluff/personal taste stuff anyway. Clerics are a good choice if we're just talking about making armies of undead.

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure...with the right domains + rebuking + divine magician, you can build a hell of a necromancer...if you really want the iconic Necromancer, Dread Necro is probably your best option, but it's pretty non-spectacular crunch-wise. Cleric's just got it all.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.:smallsmile:

Whuh? Dread Necro is fine for one thing and one thing exactly; being an awesome Necromancer. That's all they do, but they do it well.

[stainboy]

The Dread Necro's big weakness is the lack of Desecrate. Other than that they're solid, but missing Desecrate is a big deal.

How is it that there are like five necromancer classes and none of them do what I want? All I want is an int-based prepared caster with domains, rebuking, expanded control pool, and min-level access to every spell ever printed that contains the words "undead" or "negative energy."

Also I would like a pony. Preferably an undead pony, but I'm flexible.

[Eldariel]

The Dread Necro's big weakness is the lack of Desecrate. Other than that they're solid, but missing Desecrate is a big deal.

Feh. Acquire. Or UMD.

[Gullintanni]

Dread Necromancers lose out on Domains IMO. But otherwise DN's are a pretty solid class. They're just too specialized for me. Necromancers should be more than just animators. They should be protecting their undead, healing them...buffing where possible. Cleric's ostensibly have the ability to boost their big undead to keep them fighting fit for longer.

I also like that Clerics can do some limited battlefield control and tons of debuffing (Divine Magician ACF gives you access to a lot of the better Wiz/Sorc Necromancies, so you can do the caster role pretty well).

IIRC Arcane Disciple allows you to pick up a Domain and add its spells to your list. You can grab Desecrate, but I'm not sure you can get Desecrate and Animate Dead at level 3 on the same Domain. It's possible though, and if it's an available selection, then it's definitely the top choice. I've just never had to do it before :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

IIRC Arcane Disciple allows you to pick up a Domain and add its spells to your list. You can grab Desecrate, but I'm not sure you can get Desecrate and Animate Dead at level 3 on the same Domain. It's possible though, and if it's an available selection, then it's definitely the top choice. I've just never had to do it before :smalltongue:

It just so happens, Undeath-domain (how appropriate, eh?) from Spell Compendium has both. And it only takes Wis 13 to get all the benefits you care about. And that's two spells for one feat, which is fine. 15 would get you Circle of Death but you really don't care about that. That's one of the easier ways of doing it, really. It's not the only one, not by a longshot, but it's probably the best.

The awesome thing about Dread Necro is that they're a Turning (or well, Rebuking) class with Charisma as their casting stat, which leads to epic amounts of Rebukes with epic bonuses easily.

[Gullintanni]

It just so happens, Undeath-domain (how appropriate, eh?) from Spell Compendium has both. And it only takes Wis 13 to get all the benefits you care about. And that's two spells for one feat, which is fine. 15 would get you Circle of Death but you really don't care about that. That's one of the easier ways of doing it, really. It's not the only one, not by a longshot, but it's probably the best.

The awesome thing about Dread Necro is that they're a Turning (or well, Rebuking) class with Charisma as their casting stat, which leads to epic amounts of Rebukes with epic bonuses easily.

There you go...your Uttercold Necro comes online at level five. Have fun!

[TraceMeitantei]

Goody, I have something to bring to the table for my super secret undercover game. And if anyone is reading this from that game, piss off! I want to blab about the ways I'm going to mess you up a few weeks from now and turn you into ice-zombies in peace, thank you very much.

Actually I won't be infiltrating them, I got their DM to agree to let me make a villain for them or something if he ever needs a backup. But still they won't know aht hit them!

In the meantime, i think there were some guidelines in the DMG or something about testing out parties, so I'm going to go practice with my new super powerful necromancer to be effective for when the DM gets things started.

[Coidzor]

Ice zombies?