Best (mostly) mundane ways to kill casters

[veven]

A friend and I might be in a two man arcane hunter game (I am going church inquisitor focused on counter-spelling)

He may be a Karsite (we are playing w/ LA buyoff) warblade with all of the mageslayer feats. He want's to avoid anything resembling magic so no manifesting or binding or anything. He will use magic items but that's it. Aside from Warblade being awesome, and the mage slayer feats being pretty great too, what else can be done to improve this concept?

[Hirax]

Behold, Zeus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199467). That should give you some ideas. In particular I recommend the pierce magical concealment feat and witch slayer prc.

[*.*.*.*]

witch slayer prc.

This is one of my favorite PrCs, at will AMFs with both Mettle and Slippery mind is epic

[Divide by Zero]

Depends what kind of caster. A 20+ Int wizard played with the strategies that a being of that Int score would use? Good luck.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Depends what kind of caster. A 20+ Int wizard played with the strategies that a being of that Int score would use? Good luck.

Sorcerers, though....:smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sorcerers, though....:smalltongue:

Have Wings spells to be even more obnoxious to kill...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Have Wings spells to be even more obnoxious to kill...

To be fair, all the best sorcerers are really wizards. I mean, it's a +0 LA template and everything!:smalltongue:

The man reason I mentioned this, is, wizards get a pass at their crazy plans because of crazy, super human intelligence leading them there. Sorcerers run on charisma, so, assuming someone finds them out and wants them dead, well, there's a fight, that's for sure.:smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Forsaker PrC (3.0 Maters of the Wild) forsakes the use of spells and magic items, but it gets SR that stacks with existing SR, so it might be good for a Karsite. Still, giving up magic items hurts A LOT...

Even worse, they have to actively destroy magic items in order to turn on their abilities. It's about as useful as Truenamer.

[Geigan]

Make sure to grab Ironheart Surge. BY CROOOOOOOOOOMMM!!!

Other than that probably things to boost will saves, to shake those nasty mind affecting enchantments. Steadfast determination(PHB2) would boost his will save if he didn't have a decent wis score(switches wis for con on will saves). Does require endurance though, but has the added effect of keeping you from failing fort saves on 1s.

[Gamer Girl]

1.Alchemy. Poisons, acid, glue, and so forth.
2.Entanglement, the bane of many spellcasters.
3.Ranged attacks
4.Speed
5.Surprise. The best way, hands down. Don't let the spellcaster see it coming.

[veven]

Yeah, he'll have IHS and all the TOB Save Replacers. Witch Slayer is also on the list of ideas.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Make sure to grab Ironheart Surge. BY CROOOOOOOOOOMMM!!!

Other than that probably things to boost will saves, to shake those nasty mind affecting enchantments. Steadfast determination(PHB2) would boost his will save if he didn't have a decent wis score(switches wis for con on will saves). Does require endurance though, but has the added effect of keeping you from failing fort saves on 1s.

Seconding this.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, he'll have IHS and all the TOB Save Replacers. Witch Slayer is also on the list of ideas.

Depending on the level, Eternal Blade can be a good idea. Immediate Action turn actually allows you to play the Celerity-game a bit. I made an Archer based on the shell for the Mage Slaying fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4439795&postcount=209). The build is of course suboptimal; I did not use a Weapon of Legacy to gain access to few key spells (Moment of Prescience, Heal, Mind Blank and Cunning [basically Foresight] for example), for one, and did not have Phasing Arrows nor a way to locate people inside objects (should've at the very least had a Martial Script of One with Shadow; or just learned the maneuver somehow; and has e.g. Creature Compass ability on a Weapon of Legacy to locate people I can't see, hear or smell).

So...yeah, if making a non-caster mage slayer for any higher level, he should have some Mage Bane weapon of legacy with a bunch of exceedingly useful abilities made to counteract magic's awesome. It can be a secondary weapon like a glove too; it does not need to be the primary weapon (and indeed, making Weapon of Legacy the weapon you attack with kinda sucks since the worthwhile abilities the items have are not the weapon enhancement bonuses you can add to them).

[Devmaar]

Even worse, they have to actively destroy magic items in order to turn on their abilities. It's about as useful as Truenamer.

Destroying magic items is only needed for the DR. As it's DR/Magic it's more or less pointless, losing it won't affect anything.

[Tvtyrant]

Might as well throw VoP on top of it if your already unable to use items.

[CTrees]

Take a sword. Stick the pointy bit in the squishy bits of the caster. It's an arcane caster, so the entire thing is "squishy bits."

Warning: Unlikely to be that simple past level two. Maybe not ever.

[Tvtyrant]

It occurs to me that you could connect an anti-magic field to your familiar and then send it after the enemy caster. Especially if you have an Imp or Eagle or something it could probably take the enemy caster out in melee.

[Eldariel]

It occurs to me that you could connect an anti-magic field to your familiar and then send it after the enemy caster. Especially if you have an Imp or Eagle or something it could probably take the enemy caster out in melee.

That's a caster tactic :smallwink:

[WildPyre]

In his sleep... with a stick.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a caster tactic :smallwink:

The familiar isn't a caster :smallcool:

Honestly though, the best system for a none-caster is to get the dragon type, take the Awaken Dragon (SR) feat from the Dracomonicon and then play a saves based monk/shadowdancer and add mettle somehow. Then sneak up and coup them while they sleep.

[Eldariel]

The familiar isn't a caster :smallcool:

Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability!

[Divide by Zero]

If you can even get to a wizard while they're asleep without being a caster yourself, they probably weren't being played properly. How are you getting into the rope trick/MMM/genesis plane/whatever and past all their other protections?

[Zaq]

If you can even get to a wizard while they're asleep without being a caster yourself, they probably weren't being played properly. How are you getting into the rope trick/MMM/genesis plane/whatever and past all their other protections?

Silver Key's kinda fun for this, since most folks don't put traps inside their supposedly impenetrable MMM. Sure, it won't get you past all the contingent spells and the COP-based foreknowledge and all that, but eh, can't win 'em all. (OK, can't win any of 'em against a Wizard who's playing mean, but still.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Might as well throw VoP on top of it if your already unable to use items.

To be fair to Forsakers, they can at least still use psionic gear! No need going that fair off the deep end!:smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

The question becomes whether VoP is worth the 2 feats, for a particular build, though. Even if they're already not using magic items, feats are precious.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The question becomes whether VoP is worth the 2 feats, for a particular build, though. Even if they're already not using magic items, feats are precious.

It's also whether or not you will play roughly WBL and for how high of a level you'll go to

[Hirax]

Yeah, that's true too, VoP gets staggeringly bad at high levels. Mechanically.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Best way to kill an intelligent caster?

* Make sure you have your Bluff check maximized, plus Glibness, and any other items for boosting it.

* Convince every major religion that the caster in question is a threat to *everything*, and they should remove that threat

* Make sure you include the epic-level clerics and druids when planning this.

* Pray they win.

That might do it. Might.

[Akal Saris]

On a sidenote, I remember one of those depressingly long fighter vs. wizard threads where the two made character sheets - the fighter won by using lots of black lotus poison, which the wizard PC had neglected to protect himself against. A lesson to future would-be magelords :smalltongue:

Anyhow, my vote would be for a mundane stealth-based character with protections from divinations, lots of sneak attack, maybe even death attack, and lots of poisons.

[Eldariel]

Anyhow, my vote would be for a mundane stealth-based character with protections from divinations, lots of sneak attack, maybe even death attack, and lots of poisons.

That works until we reach about level 11; after that SA, Death Attack and poisons become largely useless. I personally would go with pure damage; it's not hard to deal enough damage to kill a Wizard in one go if you connect and pure damage cannot be reduced by critical immunity, poison immunity or anything else of the type.

Stealth is good tho. Combine high Hide & Move Silently with Darkstalker and Hide in Plain Sight and you've got tools. In general, skills are very key for mundane against caster; Spot and Listen on high enough levels can trump many defensive spells, and few spells truly trump good skills.


You want to maintain ability to kill from any opening at range which is why I went with archery in that particular thread. SA and such would restrict you to 30' range; optimally you want to be able to kill 100s of feet away since teleportation is so easy and a common contingency; if you can kill a target 1000' away, it's much harder for an airborne Wizard to simply jump out of the way. Phasing Arrows augment this nicely, enabling penetrating many of the more common Walls and such Wizard can employ, and likewise functioning against terrain.

You obviously also want the ability to kill in melee as a standard action (killing at range with a standard action would be optimal but without investing too much in it killing your versatility, can't really be done without relying on crits or similar). This is especially useful for moving past obstacles (created or natural) and landing the killing blow after reaching the target. Achieving both is very doable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That works until we reach about level 11; after that SA, Death Attack and poisons become largely useless. I personally would go with pure damage; it's not hard to deal enough damage to kill a Wizard in one go if you connect and pure damage cannot be reduced by critical immunity, poison immunity or anything else of the type.

Stealth is good tho. Combine high Hide & Move Silently with Darkstalker and Hide in Plain Sight and you've got tools. In general, skills are very key for mundane against caster; Spot and Listen on high enough levels can trump many defensive spells, and few spells truly trump good skills.


You want to maintain ability to kill from any opening at range which is why I went with archery in that particular thread. SA and such would restrict you to 30' range; optimally you want to be able to kill 100s of feet away since teleportation is so easy and a common contingency; if you can kill a target 1000' away, it's much harder for an airborne Wizard to simply jump out of the way. Phasing Arrows augment this nicely, enabling penetrating many of the more common Walls and such Wizard can employ, and likewise functioning against terrain.

You obviously also want the ability to kill in melee as a standard action (killing at range with a standard action would be optimal but without investing too much in it killing your versatility, can't really be done without relying on crits or similar). This is especially useful for moving past obstacles (created or natural) and landing the killing blow after reaching the target. Achieving both is very doable.

You'd still need pierce Magical Concealment to sneak attack, because no caster worthy of the title is going to NOT have some form of concealment. Be it a Robe of Eyes to simply negate SA, or a Lesser Cloak of Displacement.

[Eldariel]

You'd still need pierce Magical Concealment to sneak attack, because no caster worthy of the title is going to NOT have some form of concealment. Be it a Robe of Eyes to simply negate SA, or a Lesser Cloak of Displacement.

Well, that's kind of a given; if you're a caster slayer, you will have that line anyways.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, that's kind of a given; if you're a caster slayer, you will have that line anyways.

You'll also need to get around Foresight and Contingency: Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

Those are a LOT harder to bypass.

[Geigan]

I wonder, could you rig a sort of antimagic arrow that launches and sets up an AMF wherever it lands? That would certainly be helpful for getting past annoying buffs.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I wonder, could you rig a sort of antimagic arrow that launches and sets up an AMF wherever it lands? That would certainly be helpful for getting past annoying buffs.

Yes, but it would take a caster to do it.:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

You'll also need to get around Foresight and Contingency: Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

Those are a LOT harder to bypass.

*chuckle* I know. You also need to defeat COP, Eyes of the Oracle, Shapechange, Moment of Prescience, Astral Projection (or Genesis), True Seeing, Superior Invisibility, Ghostform and Etherealness, among others. And the Heart of X-line. And 20 Crafted Contingencies. You have your work cut out for you; Vecna-Blooded X with a Breaching Obelisk is a start but that's all it is.


I wonder, could you rig a sort of antimagic arrow that launches and sets up an AMF wherever it lands? That would certainly be helpful for getting past annoying buffs.

Sublime Chord-base Arcane Archer (Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4, approximately) can do this. You, however, do need to be a full caster to pull it off. Also, if the arrow hits you should be able to kill him anyways, AMF or not. It's the problem getting the arrow to hit. Silence Arrows are more plausible but given Silence is 1 min/level, the caster needs to be nearby anyways (and of course, it's not nearly as foolproof since all that takes is breaking the LoE or using Rod of Silent Spell to defeat).

[Geigan]

Yes, but it would take a caster to do it.:smalltongue:

Well if we're getting into stuff like celerity, then that means the caster is being played intelligently or at least moreso than an NPC that you'd be expected to beat with a mundane class. The only thing that can beat a well played wizard is an even better played wizard.:smalltongue:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Well if we're getting into stuff like celerity, then that means the caster is being played intelligently or at least moreso than an NPC that you'd be expected to beat with a mundane class. The only thing that can beat a well played wizard is an even better played wizard.:smalltongue:

Well, yeah, that is the easiest way. You could maybe swing it with a choker of AMF (item from Underdark) and someone with fling ally, but it still takes a team and a magic item to do.:smallsigh:

[Eldariel]

Well if we're getting into stuff like celerity, then that means the caster is being played intelligently or at least moreso than an NPC that you'd be expected to beat with a mundane class. The only thing that can beat a well played wizard is an even better played wizard.:smalltongue:

Most of the stuff I listed can be defeated; it just takes a lot of work and generally more resources than it takes for the Wizard to protect himself which tends to be the crux of the issue. Further, the Wizard getting the Alpha Strike is rather disastrous since there's no way to protect against all the avenues of attack a Wizard can present.

Your best bet for being a mundane caster killer is to be versatile with lots of different manners of offense and defense and various immunities and means to penetrate common defenses thus being able to capitalize on any mistakes the caster makes and being able to surprise him with capabilities he would not expect of you.


Take the Eternal Blade I presented as an example:
- You represent a reasonable control capability if you get to a position where you can threaten the mage without actions left (Mage Slayer, reach, Trip-capable though no Improved Trip or Stand Still - should have Thicket of Blades, didn't think of it then)
- Solid ranged offense, to the tune of being able to pincushion a target ~2000' away in one full round attack, with capacity to hit massive AC and penetrate massive damage.
- Capacity to deliver telling blows in melee as a standard action or after charge (this would be improved upon with a more advanced version of the build)
- Capability to penetrate most kinds of type-based magical defenses (notably things like Ironguard), all illusions and concealment-based defenses (Pierce Magical Concealment; should also have Seeking bow, oversight on my part) & incorporeality.
- Due to being able to hit high ACs, capable of trumping most magical AC buff stacks, and killing most called/summoned creatures given the chance.
- Capable of taking a turn as an immediate action (this is what the build invests most of its levels in; it's the only non-magical way of gaining a Celerity-like ability, and as such likely unexpected)
- Capable of breaking many magical effects (Iron Heart Surge) and granting allies extra turns (White Raven Tactics)
- All the usual stuff; relatively good Touch AC (32 - 37 usually, with Uncanny Dodge and Blind-Fight of course; would benefit of further tinkering), saves (with save enhancing maneuvers as necessary; can hit saves north of 50 with relative consistency, having trouble (around 50/50 odds with reroll) at 57 Fort (it's base +29 and +17 from Diamond Defense), 56 Ref (plus Evasion) and should-be 47 Will (though unfortunately lacks Mettle and the actual Will-save was even lower due to neglect); also, Moment of Perfect Mind (at +28 or so) for additional decent Will-save. Also default immunities like immunity to mind-affecting and possessing Freedom of Movement.
- Some usual item-based tricks; Anti-Magic Field (and non-magical flight) - the item is Anti-Magic Torc, btw - Rods of Cancellation, all the usual stuff.

It should be reworked to also contain stealth (HiPS + good Hide & Move Silently + Darkstalker) and phase arrows and a Legacy Weapon to both, free up money and to enable further interaction (Island in Time before first turn, Moment of Prescience for a more competitive Initiative-roll and Heal to not get wrecked the first time someone decides to drop a 200+ HP damage bomb on you).

But the base is functional; it possesses a multitude of offensive angles and is capable of defeating a large number of magical defenses, with sufficient defensive capabilities so as to not be easy prey (and capable of both, functioning in anti-magic and negating anti-magic fields).
That's, principally, what you should work towards. A varied, strong offense that is not susceptible to standard defenses, and sufficient defenses to not be kold to standard offense. Once you have the basics covered, you can have a chance at victory against an enemy that messes up.

[Doc Roc]

Best way to kill an intelligent caster?

* Make sure you have your Bluff check maximized, plus Glibness, and any other items for boosting it.

* Convince every major religion that the caster in question is a threat to *everything*, and they should remove that threat

* Make sure you include the epic-level clerics and druids when planning this.

* Pray they win.

That might do it. Might.

Commander Timetram wants to know why you'd kill your sweet old new father?!

[Aemoh87]

To be fair, all the best sorcerers are really wizards. I mean, it's a +0 LA template and everything!:smalltongue:

What template are we talking about?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What template are we talking about?

I was being facetious, but the template I was referring to is Spellhoarding Dragon psychosis found in Dragon magazine #somenumberidontremember.

[braxsus]

I have a reoccuring NPC(s) group in my campaign world ..basically bounty hunters of PC's...led by a Anti ranger..

My tried an true way of capturing or just killing Casters.of various levels....

Bounty Hunter Rgr has skill and class ability in 4 trained attack dogs..enchanted of course..Grtr fang, Bull Str etc..

He would ambush the Caster/Party
Cast silence on a dog(s)
3-4 dogs charging at Caster/Healers..trained to stay inside Silence radius together...either from one point or two different directions
Listen checks will fail them coming..
For definite first strike, mas invisibility..

2,3 dogs on a caster,
Silenced area..verbal spells fail
Dogs getting AOO on every casting attempt...spells interrupted

And for good measure, a final dog comes in the second round with Antimagic field cast on it

Casters down

[Doc Roc]

I have a reoccuring NPC(s) group in my campaign world ..basically bounty hunters of PC's...led by a Anti ranger..

My tried an true way of capturing or just killing Casters.of various levels....

Bounty Hunter Rgr has skill and class ability in 4 trained attack dogs..enchanted of course..Grtr fang, Bull Str etc..

He would ambush the Caster/Party
Cast silence on a dog(s)
3-4 dogs charging at Caster/Healers..trained to stay inside Silence radius together...either from one point or two different directions
Listen checks will fail them coming..
For definite first strike, mas invisibility..

2,3 dogs on a caster,
Silenced area..verbal spells fail
Dogs getting AOO on every casting attempt...spells interrupted

And for good measure, a final dog comes in the second round with Antimagic field cast on it

Casters down

Andddd if the caster is flying? Or has arcane sight, greater? Or touchsight? Or true sight? Are you at least using insidious magic?

And yes, my wizards have this stuff always-up. I'm sorry, but I think you have different kinds of casters than I do.

[braxsus]

Andddd if the caster is flying? Or has arcane sight, greater? Or touchsight? Or true sight? Are you at least using insidious magic?

And yes, my wizards have this stuff always-up. I'm sorry, but I think you have different kinds of casters than I do.

Different types of caster builds equire different types preperation

If casters have Permanancied spells like see invis, arcane site..he will know this through his investigation..True seeing isn't perm.

Your assuming a bounty hunter is going to attack you when its good for the party..he attacks when its in his favor.
Flying?..wait till caster lands...is he leaving the INN? is he entering a Shop?
If your getting attacked by him, he's been watching you for awhile already..

Exiting a building you frequent, you fail a spot check to notice anything conspicuous about the covered wagon 30 feet away from the door that is being unloaded by that big burly guy..

You turn to walk away, and 3 dogs leap out from the covered wagon and attack you from behind...
or
You walk by the wagon, and notice your voice leaves you just as 4 dogs leap out and attack you...

I have the same kind of wizards that you do...ones that think they can't be touched..right up until they get knocked out..

[Eldariel]

Andddd if the caster is flying? Or has arcane sight, greater? Or touchsight? Or true sight? Are you at least using insidious magic?

And yes, my wizards have this stuff always-up. I'm sorry, but I think you have different kinds of casters than I do.

Hell, it seems like basic 5th level spell, Overland Flight, would completely negate this. Or 3rd level spell with higher CL; Phantom Steed. Both hour/levels so you'll be flying all day trivially without doing literally anything at all.


I have the same kind of wizards that you do...ones that think they can't be touched..right up until they get knocked out..

If the Wizards in your games can be touched, they aren't the same. Where's the Contingencies? Where's the Contingent Spells? Where's the Contact Other Plane? Where's the Shrunk Tinfoil Hat? Where's the Teleportation as a basic form of travel? Where's the extradimensional accommodation? There...are reasons we don't consider non-casters threats for casters.

[Doc Roc]

Hell, it seems like basic 5th level spell, Overland Flight, would completely negate this. Or 3rd level spell with higher CL; Phantom Steed. Both hour/levels so you'll be flying all day trivially without doing literally anything at all.



If the Wizards in your games can be touched, they aren't the same. Where's the Contingencies? Where's the Contingent Spells? Where's the Contact Other Plane? Where's the Shrunk Tinfoil Hat? Where's the Teleportation as a basic form of travel? Where's the extradimensional accommodation? There...are reasons we don't consider non-casters threats for casters.


http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2011/130/a/d/space_core_wallpaper_2_by_deathonabun-d3eta23.jpg
Also, why the heck would I ever LAND? I CAN FLY. FLlllLLlLLLllyyyyyyYYYYyy. The dream of man! Flying! Articulated in a game with emergent gameplay! FLIGHTTTTTTTT.

[Hirax]

Feathered wings (FF graft) cost a meager 10k. Well worth the cost even without mageslaying in mind.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Different types of caster builds equire different types preperation However, some things are universal over every caster I've ever seen played even remotely intelligently.


If casters have Permanancied spells like see invis, arcane site..he will know this through his investigation..True seeing isn't perm. Trust me, you can get perm true seeing. If nothing else, Greater Prying Eyes gives you a bunch of minions with true seeing. With a duration of hours/level, he WILL have them up. Yes, even then.


Your assuming a bounty hunter is going to attack you when its good for the party..he attacks when its in his favor.
Flying?..wait till caster lands...is he leaving the INN? is he entering a Shop?
If your getting attacked by him, he's been watching you for awhile already..
Exiting a building you frequent, you fail a spot check to notice anything conspicuous about the covered wagon 30 feet away from the door that is being unloaded by that big burly guy..

You turn to walk away, and 3 dogs leap out from the covered wagon and attack you from behind...
or
You walk by the wagon, and notice your voice leaves you just as 4 dogs leap out and attack you...

I have the same kind of wizards that you do...ones that think they can't be touched..right up until they get knocked out..
And how can you keep up with him when, with a thought, he's in another city, another continent... hell, another plane. How can you track him when he leaves no tracks? One moment, he's in town A. The next moment, he's at the interdimensional nexus, the moment after that, he's shopping at the Bazaar at Deva.

You've got a half hour to travel 2,000 miles, do your research, and make an attack. Go.

In the meantime, assuming you get blindingly lucky, and he ports right next to you, for some inexplicable reason unaware of your position, and you get your shot...

Counter the following:

Foresight. Even if you surprise him, you don't.

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. Even if you try to land a blow on him, he still gets to react before it lands.

Mirror Image, Greater. Even if you bypass that, you've got a 12.5% chance of hitting the mage. Do ya feel lucky, punk?

These are *BASIC* protections which any arcane caster worthy of the title will do, instinctively, before stepping out of his MMM/Rope Trick/Genesis Plane. He does this before going to relieve himself in the morning. He literally does not appear in the plane of existence you inhabit without these protections up. After level *THREE*, you have zero chance of hitting him before he buffs up. It goes downhill from there.

[Hirax]

Let's ignore time stop and foresight; 9th level spell availability means genesis and astral projection make you unkillable anyway, unless you have a homebrewed way to cut people's silver cords.

With that in mind, I'm interested in a thought exercise. How can the wizard better prepare, and how can the mage slayers better prepare?

Let's assume everybody is level 15, and we'll pit a single wizard (who gets to go first) off against a pure swordsage, paladin5/witch slayer5/occult slayer5, warblade11/bloodstorm blade4, and rogue3/swordsage2/assassin10. All have flight, whether through race or other means, mage slayer, PMC, and some sort of dimension door 3/day item or ability. The assassin has a collar of umbral metamorphosis, an assassin's dagger, bracers or murder, and the darkstalker feat. I don't think any of these are unreasonable assumptions for a mageslaying party.

How would you prevent getting hit by a witch slayer's swift action temporary disjunction ability, assuming they dimension door within 30' (range of the ability) of you? Particularly if they took the ToM feat that would cause it to last 2 rounds instead of 1, you're screwed if you fail the will save (20+charisma+ability focus+veilfromMICthatgrants+2). This character also gets a spell turning ability twice per day (see Occult Slayer).

Let's say a swordsage shadow jaunts (move action teleport) up to you with cloak of deception (swift action greater invisibility for 1 round) and hits you with disrupting blow, leaving you unable to act for a round? Or comet throw, which could leave you prone, adjacent to an enemy, and thus unable to cast defensively thanks to mage slayer feat.

Meanwhile, you need to find the assassin, who has hide in plain sight and foils blindsight and tremorsense. He can death attack you every other turn thanks to deathsight (Complete Mage spell), and at level 15 their death attack DC is high enough that you need to make a DC of 30 (10 (base) + 10 (level) + 5 (int) +5 (ability focus, assassin's dagger, bracers of murder), aleval school and other feats could add more), so consider failure to be an option after a couple tries. Even if you're specifically immune to death attacks, you won't be immune to being whittled down by sneak attack damage (7d6, 3d6 if half damage (DS ACF), and if he takes aleval school he'll be rerolling 1s), so you need to find a way to always be not flat-footed against greater invisibility/darkstalker, and prevent ranged sneak attacks (from returning throwing hammers or daggers, depending on needed DR). Then you need to stop the bloodstorm blade from plinking away at you from range, while you're at it.

Individually none are particularly hard to stop, but I'm curious what direction people would take for stopping all 4 at once. Flight, combined with the various short range teleportation methods will have make walls and terrain obstacles impractical, so you need to somehow dimensionally anchor everyone for starters. If you go first, how do you stop all 4?

[Fuhrmaaj]

I'm just curious if you're opposed to using psionics. (Illithid) Slayer has a lot of good flavour for the type of thing you want to do. Maybe you could convince your DM to let you swap the Favoured Enemy bonuses so you do bonus damage to arcanists instead of illithids. It's not a fair trade (arcane magic comes up a lot more than illithids), but it fits with your backstory.

I would recommend starting with the Psion (Nomad) and then getting a level of Ranger and some Fighter just for feats and BAB. You should be able to finish with +17 BAB and 9th-level powers if you do it right. Using your magic, you'll be able to overcome a lot of wizard advantages and you get nondetection as a supernatural ability from (Illithid) Slayer.

If you have trouble justifying it to yourself, think that you produce all these effects with your mind. It's not really magic. If you don't like that, I have some other ideas but I don't think you'll ever be able to kill mages at high levels unless you learn to cast (or manifest as the case may be).

EDIT: Link to the Slayer PrC (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Slayer).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Let's ignore time stop and foresight; 9th level spell availability means genesis and astral projection make you unkillable anyway, unless you have a homebrewed way to cut people's silver cords.

With that in mind, I'm interested in a thought exercise. How can the wizard better prepare, and how can the mage slayers better prepare?

Let's assume everybody is level 15, and we'll pit a single wizard (who gets to go first) off against a pure swordsage, paladin5/witch slayer5/occult slayer5, warblade11/bloodstorm blade4, and rogue3/swordsage2/assassin10. All have flight, whether through race or other means, mage slayer, PMC, and some sort of dimension door 3/day item or ability. The assassin has a collar of umbral metamorphosis, an assassin's dagger, bracers or murder, and the darkstalker feat. I don't think any of these are unreasonable assumptions for a mageslaying party.

How would you prevent getting hit by a witch slayer's swift action temporary disjunction ability, assuming they dimension door within 30' (range of the ability) of you? Particularly if they took the ToM feat that would cause it to last 2 rounds instead of 1, you're screwed if you fail the will save (20+charisma+ability focus+veilfromMICthatgrants+2). This character also gets a spell turning ability twice per day (see Occult Slayer).

Let's say a swordsage shadow jaunts (move action teleport) up to you with cloak of deception (swift action greater invisibility for 1 round) and hits you with disrupting blow, leaving you unable to act for a round? Or comet throw, which could leave you prone, adjacent to an enemy, and thus unable to cast defensively thanks to mage slayer feat.

Meanwhile, you need to find the assassin, who has hide in plain sight and foils blindsight and tremorsense. He can death attack you every other turn thanks to deathsight (Complete Mage spell), and at level 15 their death attack DC is high enough that you need to make a DC of 30 (10 (base) + 10 (level) + 5 (int) +5 (ability focus, assassin's dagger, bracers of murder), aleval school and other feats could add more), so consider failure to be an option after a couple tries. Even if you're specifically immune to death attacks, you won't be immune to being whittled down by sneak attack damage (7d6, 3d6 if half damage (DS ACF), and if he takes aleval school he'll be rerolling 1s), so you need to find a way to always be not flat-footed against greater invisibility/darkstalker, and prevent ranged sneak attacks (from returning throwing hammers or daggers, depending on needed DR). Then you need to stop the bloodstorm blade from plinking away at you from range, while you're at it.

Individually none are particularly hard to stop, but I'm curious what direction people would take for stopping all 4 at once. Flight, combined with the various short range teleportation methods will have make walls and terrain obstacles impractical, so you need to somehow dimensionally anchor everyone for starters. If you go first, how do you stop all 4?

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

You attack me, contingency triggers before the blow lands. Teleport out of range of DimDoor. Let the stun wear off. Return fire with extreme prejudice.

Of course, HOW you got that close to me, through my cloud of Greater Prying Eyes, with True Sight, and a +25 Spot check, is another question. But let's let that one slide for now, hmmm?

[Eldariel]

Let's ignore time stop and foresight; 9th level spell availability means genesis and astral projection make you unkillable anyway, unless you have a homebrewed way to cut people's silver cords.

With that in mind, I'm interested in a thought exercise. How can the wizard better prepare, and how can the mage slayers better prepare?

Let's assume everybody is level 15, and we'll pit a single wizard (who gets to go first) off against a pure swordsage, paladin5/witch slayer5/occult slayer5, warblade11/bloodstorm blade4, and rogue3/swordsage2/assassin10. All have flight, whether through race or other means, mage slayer, PMC, and some sort of dimension door 3/day item or ability. The assassin has a collar of umbral metamorphosis, an assassin's dagger, bracers or murder, and the darkstalker feat. I don't think any of these are unreasonable assumptions for a mageslaying party.

How would you prevent getting hit by a witch slayer's swift action temporary disjunction ability, assuming they dimension door within 30' (range of the ability) of you? Particularly if they took the ToM feat that would cause it to last 2 rounds instead of 1, you're screwed if you fail the will save (20+charisma+ability focus+veilfromMICthatgrants+2). This character also gets a spell turning ability twice per day (see Occult Slayer).

Let's say a swordsage shadow jaunts (move action teleport) up to you with cloak of deception (swift action greater invisibility for 1 round) and hits you with disrupting blow, leaving you unable to act for a round? Or comet throw, which could leave you prone, adjacent to an enemy, and thus unable to cast defensively thanks to mage slayer feat.

Meanwhile, you need to find the assassin, who has hide in plain sight and foils blindsight and tremorsense. He can death attack you every other turn thanks to deathsight (Complete Mage spell), and at level 15 their death attack DC is high enough that you need to make a DC of 30 (10 (base) + 10 (level) + 5 (int) +5 (ability focus, assassin's dagger, bracers of murder), aleval school and other feats could add more), so consider failure to be an option after a couple tries. Even if you're specifically immune to death attacks, you won't be immune to being whittled down by sneak attack damage (7d6, 3d6 if half damage (DS ACF), and if he takes aleval school he'll be rerolling 1s), so you need to find a way to always be not flat-footed against greater invisibility/darkstalker, and prevent ranged sneak attacks (from returning throwing hammers or daggers, depending on needed DR). Then you need to stop the bloodstorm blade from plinking away at you from range, while you're at it.

Individually none are particularly hard to stop, but I'm curious what direction people would take for stopping all 4 at once. Flight, combined with the various short range teleportation methods will have make walls and terrain obstacles impractical, so you need to somehow dimensionally anchor everyone for starters. If you go first, how do you stop all 4?

None of those really poses a relevant threat. First of all, realize this:
- Anticipate Teleport [SC] is a 3rd level spell that lasts hours/level and means anyone trying to teleport next to you is basically stuck in the Aether for a while and you know where they will come. First person to Teleport is dead for the purposes of this fight.
- Heart of Air, Earth, Fire and Water is a line of hour/level spells that last hours/level (levels 2, 3, 4 & 5) and give you various immunities and can be discharged for some greater effect. Combined, they make you immune to critical hits (if not for this, the Wizard would have a 0 ACF Armor with Greater Fortifications to the same effect). This makes the Assassin moot as crit immunity makes you immune to death attack and sneak attack (not that you'd be vulnerable to death anyways).
- A Wizard's Will-save is like to be in the mid-20s at the very least. Witch Slayer's Momentary Disjunction is unlikely to succeed, especially since Wizard is capable of rerolling a failed save with Alter Fortune. Also, Dimension Door prevents him from taking an action that turn.
- Darkstalker HiPS cannot foil True Seeing, Mindsight, Lifesight or Touchsight. At the very latest after a summon, the Assassin would be found. Mindsight could be foiled with Mind Blank, Lifesight by not being alive and Touchsight by not being tangible but none of those defenses were present in the given build.

With that all out of the way, my first action would most likely be to win initiative with Moment of Prescience. Then it'd depend on the Wizard. If I was a vanilla case or an Abjurer, I'd most likely cast Chain Greater Dispel Magic and disable all buffs and all their magic items. After that, direct application of violence such as Orb of Fire (metamagicked to penetrate immunity and hurt, of course) or Enervation (meta for pain) would be my tool of choice for removing the annoyances.

If I had some Planar Bound minions or Simulacrums, I might have those handle the Dispelling. An amusing option would be splitting them up with Wall of Force or Walls of Stone. Wall of Force would be my most likely course of action after Dispel to leave the thrower out of it while you kill the rest. If I had minions again, I might Polymorph them to something a bit more scary (we could have a Pit Fiend companion already if we so desired tho). I might also target their saves; Plane Shift into Positive Energy Planes is one of my favorite kills due to the Explosion By Awesome it invokes. It's not Mind-Affecting and we have Arcane Reach; CDs would be about DC 30 Will-saves which are most likely hard without magic items.

If I deem the situation to need further scrutiny, I would probably Teleport away or Ghostform into a wall or go Ethereal or something similar, observe (Scry/Prying Eyes/some such) on the ones I can Scry and fight at my terms instead. After a bunch of Callings if I do decide I better Teleport away.


It's...offensively there are many ways to go for the Wizard (there's also the Shrunk Items Unshrunk, Explosive Runes Tomes as bombs, discs/clothes with Symbols on them and all that). I don't see anything particularly problematic for him to penetrate aside from stealth in that party; Pally 2 provides decent saves and Warblade+Swordsage have save replacement maneuvers with decent touch ACs but nothing too overwhelmingly complex to overcome (especially since True Strike is game).

Defensively, he's pretty safe to start with and then he has Contingency and Celerity as fallbacks if something goes wrong. The Swordsage can go Incorporeal but that should not be that problematic since he doesn't have the various stealth abilities nor that much in terms of detection abilities. If anything, those adversaries would be more dangerous as one mage slayer combining the best aspects (stealth, incorporeality, ranged prowess, disjunction) of all 4 than as separates since the Assassin's stealth doesn't protect his allies, the Swordsage's incorporeality is only useful for him and the Witch Slayer would have trouble bringing the Disjunction to bear and it still offers Will-save, and the Warblade has nothing but his ranged attacks going on for him.

[faceroll]

Even worse, they have to actively destroy magic items in order to turn on their abilities. It's about as useful as Truenamer.

The stackable SR is pretty neat, and the smashing items is only for their laughable fast healing and magic weapon stuff. VoP and Warmind with early entry and a race with SR might actually work out fairly well. Psionic rules aren't transparent enough for either Mage Slayer nor Forsaker to mess with it. 'Course, that's beyond the scope of what the OP asked for.


Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

You attack me, contingency triggers before the blow lands. Teleport out of range of DimDoor. Let the stun wear off. Return fire with extreme prejudice.

Why do you have such a generally worded contingency set up for a really specific problem? Seems like metagaming.


Of course, HOW you got that close to me, through my cloud of Greater Prying Eyes, with True Sight, and a +25 Spot check, is another question. But let's let that one slide for now, hmmm?

Lol +25 spot check. I can get a level 1 character to hide from that like 50% of the time. With a magic ring, I won't even have to roll to hide from that. Hide is the easiest skill to pimp. I'm also curious how you're getting +10 to your CL. That's pretty impressive without gouda. Furthermore, the eyes are easy to spot and destroy, they have to report back to you to relay information, and you only get 25 words to program them with. What are your 25 words?

Prying Eyes is cool, but Eldarial pointed out the real flaws in the plan (namely Anticipate Teleport and Heart of X line).

[Malkav]

what else can be done

Great Hammer (MM3 or 4). Monkey grip it, make it large, and hit the mage in the face with it.

[Hirax]

I figured it was a given we were letting people get close for a direct fight. Though maybe that defeats the point of the exercise. I'm mostly asking to both diversify my knowledge of spells and countermeasures. >_>

Anyway, what about party of 4 with the same build: warblade5/occult slayer 5/witch slayer5? The assassin, swordsage, and bloodstorm blade you convincingly dismissed, but I'm not sold on the slayer/slayer build's treatment in the previous post, hereafter called the double slayer.

Against 4 double slayers you'd need to make 4 will saves against disjunction (assume 30 for 22 cha, ability focus, and veil from MIC), and all 4 of them have spell turning twice a day as a free action, so you can't target them with direct spells (or can you?). Tiger claw/flight gives them plenty of ways to get near you that don't involve teleportation, and using disjunction is a swift action. The will saves I can see as being easyish to get around as long as you can get to only 1 being a failure, but that's a lot of resources to invest in your will save. I'm more curious what methods you would use to get around the spell turning? Presumably area spells and methods of entanglement, but what method would you use to get all 4 in one turn, in such a way that you can be sure they won't escape?

edit: actually, mingle paladin2 into the first 5 levels somewhere, divine grace will be more useful than 3rd level maneuvers.

[Doc Roc]

Orbs. Ooooorbs. I don't need to get all four, I just need to kill one each time I astrally project.

[Hirax]

Bah, of course, I had forgotten touch spells ignore spell turning. I've yet to play a game where magic users put in much effort, so this is all generally very useful learning.

[faceroll]

Spell Reflection (the immediate cast, deflect incoming) and, to a lesser degree, Scintillating Scales can help with that. Steel Wind is an immediate warblade boost that lets you HIYA an attack spell out of midair. I think. Someone should double check that for me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why do you have such a generally worded contingency set up for a really specific problem? Seems like metagaming.

Wait... I am metagaming because I don't have a contingency which is specifically set up for this problem?

Go back in my posts. I've used this exact phrase for years. It's one of my stock phrases, so to speak. I use it because it IS so good at being a 'get out of YES card, and yes, even that'.

[faceroll]

Wall of Blades. Immediate action, smack that pesky orb out of the air.


Wait... I am metagaming because I don't have a contingency which is specifically set up for this problem?

Go back in my posts. I've used this exact phrase for years. It's one of my stock phrases, so to speak. I use it because it IS so good at being a 'get out of YES card, and yes, even that'.

"teleport out of dimension door range" is the part I have issue with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wall of Blades. Immediate action, smack that pesky orb out of the air.



"teleport out of dimension door range" is the part I have issue with.

That's not part of the contingency.

It's 'contingency celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect'.

Then, with my standard action granted by the Celerity spell, I see what my opponent used to get close to me, and exceed that range with a well placed Teleport.

[faceroll]

That's not part of the contingency.

It's 'contingency celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect'.

Then, with my standard action granted by the Celerity spell, I see what my opponent used to get close to me, and exceed that range with a well placed Teleport.

Oh my bad.

[edit]
drinking

[Eldariel]

Great Hammer (MM3 or 4). Monkey grip it, make it large, and hit the mage in the face with it.

What. How does that help anything? On what planet is dealing enough damage an issue? Why do you think I don't waste any time trying to get enough damage to kill a mage when I make a "Mage Slayer"?

Obvious answer is obvious: It's unnecessary. We're killing mages. A mage won't have more than 200 HP and you can deal 200 damage without trying if you feel like it. It's the hitting him-part that's hard, not killing him once you do.

Gosh, this game (mechanical D&D combat) is not about having big numbers and comparing whose is bigger. A character that has +1000 to hit and 10000 damage per hit is a bad character in the high end of the optimization scale since that's all he does. He's not going to beat anyone competent; no matter the To Hit and damage, one can't do a thing if you can't locate the opponent and hit him and make sure he can actually be dealt damage. Large numbers =/= power.

[Hirax]

Wall of Blades. Immediate action, smack that pesky orb out of the air.


Are there any solutions that don't eat up your immediate/swift action, though? That prevents you from using disjunction.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are there any solutions that don't eat up your immediate/swift action, though? That prevents you from using disjunction.

And is also only usable once per encounter. Ever heard of Quicken? Yea, there's gonna be more than one orb to the face per turn. Twin Spell is also a favorite. Too bad Orbs don't count as rays or Split Ray would be devistating.

But, aside from Orbs, Twinned Split Ray Empowered enervation (with sufficient application of metamagic reducers). You loose, no save. Have a nice day.

You might deflect one, but you still have another three coming at you for (1d4)*1.5. Even if you *survive* (not likely, but with an unlucky roll, possible), you're still nerfed into helplessness.

[myancey]

I'm thinking a 20' pit with punji sticks, venomous snakes, and a wild boar.

The method of attracting said wizard...promise of spell components.

"Wait, there's bat dung hanging on a fishing pole? I'll go and grab it for my spell pouch."

And WHAM! Punji stick'd, snake bites, and boar'd. Then you just move in and club him with a mallet...a couple of times. :thog:

[Malkav]

What. How does that help anything? On what planet is dealing enough damage an issue?

This one. The feats for a mage slayer are assumed, as they have been included in almost everyone's posts/assumptions thus far. Hitting every single attack and doing 4.5 damage isn't going to kill a mage, or anyone else for that matter.



Gosh, comparing whose is bigger

Mine is bigger.
Just saying.

[Doc Roc]

This one. The feats for a mage slayer are assumed, as they have been included in almost everyone's posts/assumptions thus far. Hitting every single attack and doing 4.5 damage isn't going to kill a mage, or anyone else for that matter.



Mine is bigger.
Just saying.

Good forumite, good little forumite... Who's a good forumite?

That's a good forumite, taunt the single most polite and deft optimizer on the board for trying to help you. Seriously, dude, you should probably not discount Eldariel. He's almost always right.

[myancey]

Good forumite, good little forumite... Who's a good forumite?

That's a good forumite, taunt the single most polite and deft optimizer on the board for trying to help you. Seriously, dude, you should probably not discount Eldariel. He's almost always right.

First off, Deft Optimizer sounds like a good forum feat.

Secondly, we should probably all note that any method of beating a wizard's face in is legitimate. Malkav has his way, I have my punji stick, poisonous snake, and wild boar trap method, and Eldariel has his 'deftly optimized' method. All are legitimate. And its not fair to Malkav that you assume he was taunting Eldariel. It was a humorous joke.

[veven]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but spell turning would still work against orbs. The spell says it doesn't work against touch RANGE spells, not just touch spells. The orb spells are touch spells but they have a range of close.

[myancey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but spell turning would still work against orbs. The spell says it doesn't work against touch RANGE spells, not just touch spells. The orb spells are touch spells but they have a range of close.

The way I'm reading it, you'd be correct. It'd work against orbs.

[King Atticus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but spell turning would still work against orbs. The spell says it doesn't work against touch RANGE spells, not just touch spells. The orb spells are touch spells but they have a range of close.

That is correct. It just doesn't work on spells that a caster specifically comes up to you and touch you to activate because that bypasses the protective field (if you will) of the spell. Anything that has you as it's specific target and is delivered at range (including ranged touch) is turned.

[Divide by Zero]

You know, it just occurred to me that acid is the only one of the orbs that makes any sense. Nonmagical fire and electricity need some kind of source to sustain them, and cold isn't even a thing. Not sure what to make of sonic, that's always been kind of a weird element.

[Eldariel]

This one. The feats for a mage slayer are assumed, as they have been included in almost everyone's posts/assumptions thus far. Hitting every single attack and doing 4.5 damage isn't going to kill a mage, or anyone else for that matter.

It is, however, trivial to reach 200+ damage a turn in the teens and Monkey Grip + EWP: Minotaur Greathammer isn't among the more effective end of means of reaching it (not to mention, it actually fails at improving your damage enough to truly guarantee a kill; critical immunity makes the weapon's more desirable functions irrelevant leaving you with effectively Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bludgeoning Greatsword and Monkey Grip is basically extremely poor Power Attack).

In other words, that involves spending a bunch of resources we could spend actually becoming less incompetent at slaying mages to compensate for something. I'm...not sure the problems down there are that severe.


Secondly, we should probably all note that any method of beating a wizard's face in is legitimate. Malkav has his way, I have my punji stick, poisonous snake, and wild boar trap method, and Eldariel has his 'deftly optimized' method. All are legitimate.

I thought we sought something that has a chance of working?

[Ernir]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but spell turning would still work against orbs. The spell says it doesn't work against touch RANGE spells, not just touch spells. The orb spells are touch spells but they have a range of close.
The way I'm reading it, you'd be correct. It'd work against orbs.
That is correct. It just doesn't work on spells that a caster specifically comes up to you and touch you to activate because that bypasses the protective field (if you will) of the spell. Anything that has you as it's specific target and is delivered at range (including ranged touch) is turned.

No. The Orb spells don't have Targets, they are Effect spells. Spell Turning does not work against Effects.


You know, it just occurred to me that acid is the only one of the orbs that makes any sense. Nonmagical fire and electricity need some kind of source to sustain them, and cold isn't even a thing. Not sure what to make of sonic, that's always been kind of a weird element.
D&D doesn't make any kind of sense but its own.

[Hirax]

I was thinking spell turning didn't affect them simply because they were touch attacks (ranged/melee touch doesn't matter). Though in rereading spell turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) it says "effect" and "area" spells are not turned. What the heck is an "effect" spell? Orbs strike me as being more like rays, since it specifically says for each one that an orb of X shoots from your hand to the target.

[Ernir]

I was thinking spell turning didn't affect them simply because they were touch attacks (ranged/melee touch doesn't matter). Though in rereading spell turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) it says "effect" and "area" spells are not turned. What the heck is an "effect" spell? Orbs strike me as being more like rays, since it specifically says for each one that an orb of X shoots from your hand to the target.

See here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect) Some spells have a line indicating they are effects.

Rays are effects, but not all effects are rays.

[Hirax]

Ah, I see now, that line that says effect: one orb of x is more than just flavor. I take it it's primarily, if not exclusively, found with conjuration spells?

[King Atticus]

No. The Orb spells don't have Targets, they are Effect spells. Spell Turning does not work against Effects.

I stand corrected, you're absolutely right. Because orb spells are an instantaneous creation of the object which than becomes mundane upon throwing it, it wouldn't be effected.

[myancey]

I thought we sought something that has a chance of working?

And Malkav certainly did have something that worked. And as he said, it was a big. :smallbiggrin:
Now, I can completely understand my wild boar, snake, and punji stick pit trap being a bit ineffective. But that depends entirely upon how much the wizard needs spell components.

[Eldariel]

And Malkav certainly did have something that worked. And as he said, it was a big. :smallbiggrin:

It works on Nightmares, not Wizards. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg#t=0m28s)

[myancey]

It works on Nightmares, not Wizards. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg#t=0m28s)

lol, that's pretty wicked. Hammer diplomacy.

[faceroll]

But, aside from Orbs, Twinned Split Ray Empowered enervation (with sufficient application of metamagic reducers). You loose, no save. Have a nice day.

Soulfire. Enervation is a waste of time. It's one of those "I prepared this to totally remove any trivial encounter." It's basically the fighter of spells. Sure, if it lands, it's cool, but anything it affects won't be dangerous anyway, because the DM didn't over-optimize to keep up with T1 idiocy, anyway,

[tyckspoon]

Ah, I see now, that line that says effect: one orb of x is more than just flavor. I take it it's primarily, if not exclusively, found with conjuration spells?

Anything that involves launching something toward a target, generally; most ranged touch spells are Effect: Whatever. The idea is they operate like a ranged weapon- you don't, strictly speaking, aim a ranged weapon at a target in the sense of a targeted spell. You aim it at an area and try to accurately place the projectile such that it intersects with the target you want. That's why you can blind-fire a Ray or similar Effect spell and have a chance of hitting something. A Target spell, on the other hand, homes in on the.. eh.. magical 'self' of the target, or something.. which is why you can still Target somebody hiding behind a Tower Shield, because you can still select 'that dude with the Tower Shield' as an identifiable distinct being in the.. uh.. rules metaphysics. Where an Effect spell will just splash against the physical barrier.

tl;dr: aiming at a target is not the same as a Target spell.

[King Atticus]

Enervation is a waste of time. It's one of those "I prepared this to totally remove any trivial encounter." It's basically the fighter of spells. Sure, if it lands, it's cool, but anything it affects won't be dangerous anyway, because the DM didn't over-optimize to keep up with T1 idiocy, anyway,

If you're a caster that is using ray spells you should be able to "land" a range touch attack. Any ray caster with a decent Dex and BAB (Use Sorc with the Divine Sorcery feat. Take on the War domain so you can cast Divine Power) and you should be able to hit pretty much anything that comes your way. Look at Sorc/Spell Warp Sniper/Incantatrix it gives you all those beautiful Metamagic Feats subsidize with feats that lower the metamagic level cost and you've got one bada$$ sniper. The build has very defined purpose and gives up some versatility but it's alot of fun to play. Especially with your maximized-empowered-split rayed-twinspelled enervation...one shot one kill.:xykon:

[Malkav]

It is, however, trivial to reach 200+ damage a turn
I thought we sought something that has a chance of working?

Agreed. If I want to kill a wizard, personally, I use a wizard.

[Hirax]

For various definitions of defeat. Where's that post where someone talked about how they envisioned wizards comparing lists of contingencies over tea instead of actually fighting, then simply declaring whoever had the better list the winner?

[NNescio]

For various definitions of defeat. Where's that post where someone talked about how they envisioned wizards comparing lists of contingencies over tea instead of actually fighting, then simply declaring whoever had the better list the winner?

Why does this... uh... resemble a certain series of games involving crying seagulls?

[The_Scourge]

I made a build similar to the one Hirax posted but the key difference is that I discovered the custom magic item rules.

It's expensive as hell but you can pay/force a wizard to craft a weapon that has an activatable antimagic field on it. Pop that on and fling to your (iron) heart's content. Most of your abilities are (ex) so you're ok. Their buffs go away while you attack them since the antimagic field travels with the weapon. so you're basically pounding on a really smart commoner in really expensive rags.

My favorite trick was to use improved trip Combat brute dungeoncrasher and knockback to trip them break all their stuff and then repeatedly smash them into walls.

God I miss that character.

[Zaq]

For various definitions of defeat. Where's that post where someone talked about how they envisioned wizards comparing lists of contingencies over tea instead of actually fighting, then simply declaring whoever had the better list the winner?

That'd be mine. Right here, sir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10810214&postcount=23). I firmly believe this to be true.

[SITB]

That'd be mine. Right here, sir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10810214&postcount=23). I firmly believe this to be true.

"In ancient times, the Egyptians Wizards called this the Shadow Game Spellcasting. Powerful pharaohs High level wizards would hold mystical duels in other dimensions planes, just as we are doing now. But not with cards, they've battled with the real monsters and real magic, magical forces so powerful the Egyptians Wizards lost control of them and nearly destroyed the entire world."

"Aha! You have activated my contingency card!"

[faceroll]

If you're a caster that is using ray spells you should be able to "land" a range touch attack. Any ray caster with a decent Dex and BAB (Use Sorc with the Divine Sorcery feat. Take on the War domain so you can cast Divine Power) and you should be able to hit pretty much anything that comes your way. Look at Sorc/Spell Warp Sniper/Incantatrix it gives you all those beautiful Metamagic Feats subsidize with feats that lower the metamagic level cost and you've got one bada$$ sniper. The build has very defined purpose and gives up some versatility but it's alot of fun to play. Especially with your maximized-empowered-split rayed-twinspelled enervation...one shot one kill.:xykon:

Actually, no. A con to AC 2x or a cha to AC 3x build will be very hard to hit. Or a simple scintillating scales (dragons having low touch AC is a myth). But that's not what I'm talking about. Enervation does nothing against undead, constructs, or things with souolfire armor or shields, or deathward up.

[myancey]

Actually, no. A con to AC 2x or a cha to AC 3x build will be very hard to hit. Or a simple scintillating scales (dragons having low touch AC is a myth). But that's not what I'm talking about. Enervation does nothing against undead, constructs, or things with souolfire armor or shields, or deathward up.

Which is every once in a while...but it'd be a pretty horrid DM to have if he only throws your small list at the players. Think of the sheer volume of creatures/people this would affect. A lot bigger of a list than the above mentioned one.

This spell would be rockin' if the party encountered a group of equivalent EL to their own. Frankly, unless your a cleric or a wizard who specializes in scrying/hunting and therefore preparing for this single spell, then enervation is still crazy useful.

Plus, how can you refute someones' opinion on the level of fun they have with their build? I'd second his opinion of it being a fun build to play, having seen the concept in action.

And if you use the incantrix as King Atticus had outlined, you can blast people like crazy with other spells like ranged touch fireballs, etc--thus remaining effective.

[Ravens_cry]

Best way to kill a caster? Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)him into taking a dip in that nice lovely vat of acid.

[myancey]

Best way to kill a caster? Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)him into taking a dip in that nice lovely vat of acid.

I like this, because the bluffing part would also work for the trap I created for him in one of the earlier pages of this thread. 20' pit trap with poisonous snakes, punji sticks, and a wild boar. Dangling over the edge...spell components. Bluffing the character into believing this spell components are epic, and then giving a little shove to ensure his fall...all I missed in the diabolical plan.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, no. A con to AC 2x or a cha to AC 3x build will be very hard to hit. Or a simple scintillating scales (dragons having low touch AC is a myth). But that's not what I'm talking about. Enervation does nothing against undead, constructs, or things with souolfire armor or shields, or deathward up.

I thought this was a discussion on mundane ways to kill casters... everything you've listed so far is magic.

If you run into tons of undead, that's what your party cleric is for. If you run up against powerful constructs, that's what Disintegrate (or Orbs) is for. Soulfire armor is so rare that if your GM consistantly throws it at you, then a) thank him for turning the WBL upside-down as you make a fortune off of it), and b) switch to something else. Death Ward is a 4th level Cleric spell. How is it suddenly appearing on everything you encounter?

[Eldariel]

I made a build similar to the one Hirax posted but the key difference is that I discovered the custom magic item rules.

It's expensive as hell but you can pay/force a wizard to craft a weapon that has an activatable antimagic field on it. Pop that on and fling to your (iron) heart's content. Most of your abilities are (ex) so you're ok. Their buffs go away while you attack them since the antimagic field travels with the weapon. so you're basically pounding on a really smart commoner in really expensive rags.

My favorite trick was to use improved trip Combat brute dungeoncrasher and knockback to trip them break all their stuff and then repeatedly smash them into walls.

God I miss that character.

Custom Magic Items are DM purview only; that is, they're only guidelines for determining costs for stuff. Those aren't...really useful for anything. That said, AMF is easy to come by; Anti-Magic Torc in Underdark can project one and is a real item.

Of course, when you're under AMF you do have the issue of trying to reach a Wizard who flies. And AMF tends to be on the short list of things to prepare for when you're a Wizard since it's so obvious :smallwink:

[faceroll]

Which is every once in a while...but it'd be a pretty horrid DM to have if he only throws your small list at the players. Think of the sheer volume of creatures/people this would affect. A lot bigger of a list than the above mentioned one.

This spell would be rockin' if the party encountered a group of equivalent EL to their own. Frankly, unless your a cleric or a wizard who specializes in scrying/hunting and therefore preparing for this single spell, then enervation is still crazy useful.

Plus, how can you refute someones' opinion on the level of fun they have with their build? I'd second his opinion of it being a fun build to play, having seen the concept in action.

And if you use the incantrix as King Atticus had outlined, you can blast people like crazy with other spells like ranged touch fireballs, etc--thus remaining effective.

If the players make every optimal decision in a build, I as a DM have no problem with adding a few levels of con to AC or cha to AC or wis to AC prestige classes to any monster that matters. Or a potion of Scintillating Scales. I don't understand why wizards are expected to metagame everything without any expectation that the game world adapts. If you're playing an internet build, expect to fight internet opponents.


I thought this was a discussion on mundane ways to kill casters... everything you've listed so far is magic.

If you run into tons of undead, that's what your party cleric is for. If you run up against powerful constructs, that's what Disintegrate (or Orbs) is for. Soulfire armor is so rare that if your GM consistantly throws it at you, then a) thank him for turning the WBL upside-down as you make a fortune off of it), and b) switch to something else. Death Ward is a 4th level Cleric spell. How is it suddenly appearing on everything you encounter?

Magical gear is acceptable under the OP's parameters, as are races and prestige classes that buff AC.

But that isn't even the point. Soulfire equipment was what I was getting at. If it's a threat, it's gonna have soulfire. Not getting negative energy protection is foolish. The real threat will be from orbs. Soulfire buckler vendors for 12,500gp, if you can recover it. Not a whole lot at levels when you're throwing around twinned useless eneverations. It's like Ray of Stupidity. Congratulations, you killed an ape. You could have flown or used invis anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But that isn't even the point. Soulfire equipment was what I was getting at. If it's a threat, it's gonna have soulfire. Not getting negative energy protection is foolish. The real threat will be from orbs. Soulfire buckler vendors for 12,500gp, if you can recover it. Not a whole lot at levels when you're throwing around twinned useless eneverations. It's like Ray of Stupidity. Congratulations, you killed an ape. You could have flown or used invis anyway.

12k off of every NPC in every encounter? Hells yes, please. One encounter, I end up with the WBL of a 20th level character. THANK you. Now I'll just buy me win buttons.

[NNescio]

Custom Magic Items are DM purview only; that is, they're only guidelines for determining costs for stuff. Those aren't...really useful for anything. That said, AMF is easy to come by; Anti-Magic Torc in Underdark can project one and is a real item.

Of course, when you're under AMF you do have the issue of trying to reach a Wizard who flies. And AMF tends to be on the short list of things to prepare for when you're a Wizard since it's so obvious :smallwink:

I think he meant something along the lines of putting AMF on a weapon and then tossing it towards the caster. Which is... kinda sketchy and a pain to adjudicate, assuming if he can even get it to stick into/unto the caster in the first place. Or even hit him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he meant something along the lines of putting AMF on a weapon and then tossing it towards the caster. Which is... kinda sketchy and a pain to adjudicate, assuming if he can even get it to stick into/unto the caster in the first place. Or even hit him.

Sorry, but you can't even do that.


Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

It can only target the caster, not an item.

[myancey]

Yeah, the only time I've seen AMF being able to deviate from the 'centered on you' rule is with the Abjurant Master Specialist. His major esoterica ability does this, I believe.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, the only time I've seen AMF being able to deviate from the 'centered on you' rule is with the Abjurant Master Specialist. His major esoterica ability does this, I believe.

Arcane Archers have been doing it since the DMG. It's the primary reason to take the class, really (well, not necessarily for AMF only, but being able to replace the range of any Area spell with that of your bow is pretty cool and hard to come by any other way.)

[myancey]

Arcane Archers have been doing it since the DMG. It's the primary reason to take the class, really (well, not necessarily for AMF only, but being able to replace the range of any Area spell with that of your bow is pretty cool and hard to come by any other way.)

Yeah, that's pretty wicked. I hadn't seen that before..but I always thought the class was a joke. I'll have to examine it again. It's been a long time.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, that's pretty wicked. I hadn't seen that before..but I always thought the class was a joke. I'll have to examine it again. It's been a long time.

The class has exactly one worthwhile ability, the 2nd level Imbue Arrow. The funny thing is, to make that worthwhile you pretty much need full casting and the class provides none. This means the absolute minimum and the absolute maximum you ever want to take in the class is 2 levels. No other number is sensible in any way. Greater Magic Weapon outpaces the enhancement bonus for majority of the levels (especially from a Cleric; you basically never get ahead of Cleric GMW even if you enter AA ASAP and never multiclass out of it). And the other class features are 1/day and only one of them is of any value anyways (that being Phasing Arrow since that's hard to replicate outside the class - but Standard Action Once Per Day condemns it to uselessness too).

That removes any practical applications the class would have in Core but outside Core, Sublime Chord can make great use out of Arcane Archer in the standard Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4-shell, and even Wizard-base Gishes can use it alright provided they lose no other levels of casting (or one more for Eldritch Knight at absolute most but then you're already behind Sublime Chord).