3.5 Whisper Gnome Rogue w/ Shruikens and Poison

[Garetek]

So title says all. Viable choice for a character and how would you go about doing it.

I want to play a rogue, who uses poison and method of delivery on some poisons is a shuriken.

Thoughts and Ideas?
Would a human be better to pick up the free four ranks of Craft Poison, and exotic weapon proficiency shuriken, and two weapon fighting.
Giving me two attacks a round to drop some poison down before darting in to flank and get the sneak attack damage?

Please help.

Thanks in advance.

[Zaq]

I don't see what the benefit of shuriken would be. Is it just for flavor? If so, godspeed, but if not, what do you want to get out of it?

[Jude_H]

Whisper Gnome is awesom, but here I'm not seeing it.

I'd be tempted to mix in Jungle or Strongheart Halfling, racial Rogue levels and a 1-2 level Monk dip, just to deal with all the necessary feats.

[Garetek]

Just for flavor. If you ever read any of Michael A Stackpole, several of their characters use poisoned bladestars(shurikens) to great effect to help even the tide against them. Plus short range means I get a round to poison them while the tank, if you permit the term, picks up aggro, before I dart in for sneak attack damage against a foe.

[Amphetryon]

I don't see what the benefit of shuriken would be. Is it just for flavor? If so, godspeed, but if not, what do you want to get out of it?

Though this may be out-of-date information, I seem to recall something about Shuriken being treated as ammo, so they can be magicked and otherwise upgraded for dirt cheap.

[Garetek]

Though this may be out-of-date information, I seem to recall something about Shuriken being treated as ammo, so they can be magicked and otherwise upgraded for dirt cheap.

I believe that is still true. Was reading up on it earlier just don't remember where.

[Cog]

Poisons are notoriously difficult to use effectively in 3.5 - the damage they do compared to the cost of use is generally pretty bad. Just a little magic can get around that, though...

Might I suggest the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? It slows the progression of some roguey abilities a little in return for limited psionic manifesting. That, with Hidden Talent: Psionic Minor Creation can get you plenty of uses of plant-based poisons. Put ranks in Craft (poison) anyway to justify your character's knowledge and to keep around a little poison that can't be dispelled, and you should be getting along fine.

Shuriken are treated as ammo for costs; it's in the weapon descriptions.

[Amphetryon]

Akal's Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) might be useful.

[JaronK]

First off, poison as a primary attack only works if you can make the stuff cheaply. Psionic Minor Creation is the cheapest, as you can get it from an item and use it to make Black Lotus Poison or Sinmaker's Surprise (both vegetable matter based, one does 3d6 Con/3d6 Con DC 20, the other 2d6 Con/2d6 Con DC 24 with an extra 3d6 acid damage over three rounds). Minor Creation and Major Creation can both do it as well, and a Factotum can do this at level 10 if you want a skillmonkey that can make it without items. Consider the Master of Poisons feat, which grants Poison Use as well as swift action poisoning. Consider also Terrifying Strike and Sickening Strike... together you can sack 2d6 sneak attack for -4 to saves on the enemy. Also, the Assassination property gives +1d6 sneak attack damage and raises the DC of any poison applied with the weapon by the enhancement bonus of that weapon, all for a +1 enchantment cost, so that's solid. Also consider being a Necropolitan for the poison immunity as well as decreased MAD and, with a Desecrated Alter and maybe a Necromancer or Dread Necromancer, increased HP.

So I'd actually recommend Swordsage 2/Factotum 13/Master Thrower 5 for this, as a basic poison build (take the Swordsage levels at or after level 5 so you can have Assassin's Stance, Shadow Jaunt, and Cloak of Deception).

As to the Shuriken themselves... well they're a terrible weapon for most purposes, as they get destroyed with each shot. A level of Monk grants proficiency and flurry, but that's about the best you could get. What about Razor Skipdisks from Frostburn or Xen'Drik Boomerangs from ECS? Both have about the right look and are much better weapons, plus they don't destroy themselves on hits.

But if you're set of Shuriken, consider this thread for some fun options to power them up: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.0

JaronK

[Forged Fury]

Put ranks in Craft (poison) anyway to justify your character's knowledge and to keep around a little poison that can't be dispelled, and you should be getting along fine.
You might need the Craft ranks anyway, depending on if your DM rules that extracted poisons count as a "complex" item.

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

[Cerlis]

Well since wants to use shuriken...

-The main benefit of shuriken is they are small blades weapons easily concealed and a skilled user can use multiple at once.

thus we should think of various ways you can take advantage of the fact that they are small to make up for the lack of damage.

Sneak attack is the primary way to make up for damage,as a rogue it the weapon only adds a few more damage exept on crits, so as long as we keep good sneak attack advancement he should be good.

like they said shuriken are treatedas ammo for cost of enchanting so you could have multiple types of shuriken.Flaming and shocking and frost would all add another die of damage.

there is also a feat and a skill trick (feats in complete adventure i think and trick is in complete scoundrel) that let you treat enemy as flat footed after drawing a concieled weapon (i.e.your hidden shuriken, in a situation in which everyone is disarmed is great).this would also allow you to get in sneak attacks in middle of combat without having to hide, use magic, or get into melee

many people speak of the master thrower but most recomend getting the 5th level ability but i dont think you can sacrifice the Sneak attack dice for a full 5levels of it.

I dont know if there is a lvl1 binder vestige you can use for free sneak attackdice(that you could role play as an Oni or Spirit you fuse with to help you in the shadows). there is a 3rd lvl one but the feat only lets you gain one ability of a lvl 1 vestige.

There is anenchantment i think in complete adventure that adds sneak attackdice but since you are using ammo i dont know how that would work, if shurikenbreak or what.


I believe there are a few good Ranger spells given throughout the content out therethat allow you to do amazing things with ranged weapons.

[Garetek]

so knowing what I know now I think I have something that goes like this.

Race: Whisper Gnome
Class: Psychic Rogue

Feat:
Hidden Talent: Minor Creation


Seeing as how we are starting at level one I know I will not progress into epic throwing stars of death until later levels, but the gnome gives me great racial abilities to the unseen aspect of the rogue with its size and racial bonus's to all things rogue.
Psychic Rogue, to get the talent minor creation to allow me to fabricate plant based poisons at level one, for a while and simply farm(go wow terms) items until we get some levels and some income that I can spend on getting other things.

Am I right?

I think, looking at it now, taking a human might actually be better off for the free feat, to pick up the ewp shuriken. Seeing as how I would have to wait till level three to get it other wise at a bare minimum.

I think. Its been............ a long long time since I've made a 3.5 character.

[Zaq]

If you care at all about hiding, take Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) as soon as you can possibly spare a feat. It lets you hide from things with blindsight/scent/blindsense/tremorsense, any of which could normally automatically detect you no matter how good your Hide check is. You'll probably want to get it no later than level 8 or so, depending on your DM. The earlier you can get it, the better . . . even wolves have scent, after all, and they're CR 1.

[Garetek]

Sorry did not mean to imply that all I cared about was hiding.

Just meant it is one of the best races for the rogue with its starting stats, and abilities.

[Redshirt Army]

You'll want Master of Poisons at some point, along with the EWP - honestly, thats 3 feats right off the bat to get this build working, though you could use daggers until you pick up the proficiency.

It's good that you're playing at low levels, thats when poison is most effective. I would seriously ask you to consider Strongheart Halfling - that bonus feat means that you can start using poisons at Level 1, and they still have a small size.

My Recommendations:

Race: Strongheart Halfling (Same as regular halfling, except they get a bonus feat instead of +1 to saves.)
Class: Psychic Rogue
Feats: Hidden Talent: Minor Creation; Master of Poisons

Buy a bunch of daggers until you get the EWP feat, and assuming you have an Int of at least 14, you'll be able to make and use 1 hours worth of Black Lotus Extract per day - combined with the skill points from that Int and Sneak Attack, you shouldn't have much trouble keeping up with the rest of the party.

[Garetek]

Strongheart look good. The extra feat means that I can get into what I want to do at first level.

And may end up being my final choice.

I did how ever note that they lack the vision abilities that the gnomes have.

Curses.. So many choices.

[Zaq]

Sorry did not mean to imply that all I cared about was hiding.

Just meant it is one of the best races for the rogue with its starting stats, and abilities.

It doesn't have to be the only thing that you can do. Just that if you care about it at all and want even a chance at hiding after even the lowest levels, you need Darkstalker. It's a stupid feat tax, but WotC handed out blindsense et al. like candy, so you really need it if you want to be at all reliably sneaky.

[Garetek]

So here is my final thoughts.

Race: Whisper Gnome for inherent rogue spell like abilities and stats and bonus's, like Dark vision, and Low light. No reason for a rogue to have to carry a torch.

Class: Psychic Rogue

Feats:
1) Hidden Talent: Minor Creation
3) Master of Poison
5) EWP Shuriken, or I can simply scrap that and use darts to save on the feat and pick up dark stalker.

From there on look for abilities to increase my chances of getting the poisons on, and stuck in for combat while darting in and out of combat to strike where able for the extra sneak attack.

Sound good?

I think so, but as always open to criticism.

[Hyfigh]

Darkstalker. Don't forget it. It's been mentioned a couple times and its merrits can't be ignored.
You should look into the Penetrating Strike ACF for the Psy Rogue, too. I don't recall if they qualify for it, but I think the only trade is Trap Sense or something. It allows you to deal 1/2 your SA damage to things that would normally be immune.

Edit: I'll throw out Craven, as well. The drawback is you lose the benefits if you're immune to fear (i.e.- immune to mind affecting abilities). It adds quite a bit of damage, though...

[Garetek]

Craven is good. I don't mind the -2 to fear. If something is causing fear me being a rogue would probably not want to fight it anyways.

But, on another note.

Minor Creation. Explained. I am a little confused to how long the poison that I make with it lasts.

I think, its just an hour at level one. just seeking to make sure I under stand it right.

[Hyfigh]

The benefit of Minor Creation to make the poison is two fold. The duration is negligable at higher levels. Once poison affects something, the damage is done regarless of whether the duration on the fo-poison is up or not. The other benefit is that it now costs basically nothing for you to make said poisons - something that can otherwise cost mountains of your WBL...

[Garetek]

Mkay, thats what I thought. So save the creation till I know that I am gonna be spending alot of time stabbing people, or for role play situations where I need to make things to knock guards out and what not.


Cheers!

Now to compile this all into a character sheet.

where did those d6's run off too......

[Sitzkrieg]

Don't want to be a party pooper, but there is one issue you haven't addressed yet. You're going to have a really tough time getting sneak attack to apply to your shuriken, because flanking only applies to melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Even if you had an enemy totally surrounded, you wouldn't get the bonus from flanking or the use of sneak attack if you used your shuriken. Someone mentioned a skill trick which would be great to take care of this issue, or you could just ask your DM to houserule that shuriken can qualify for flanking if you are within five feet.

[Hyfigh]

Indeed. You can also look into various ways to extend the power to double up on the length of time you've got to use it.

[Draz74]

1) Hidden Talent: Minor Creation

Another option (instead of this, or if you can spare a feat on Expanded Knowledge) is to ask your DM if he'll allow Prevenom Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prevenomWeapon.htm) to work on thrown weapons.

Compared with other poisons, it has a relatively minor effect, but has a scaling Save DC, which is lovely.

[Garetek]

See original Post.

I am not talking about sneak attacking with the shurikens or darts. I meant that I will stand back, throw my shurikens, then advance (dart into) combat to flank and sneak attack.