PHB and DMG Only builds

[Malkav]

So I was curious to see what people would play if EXTREMELY limited.

I suspect to see someone go the Halfling mounted combat route. But what else would you "optimize"(not much with so little resources) from those two books?

Assume 32 point-buy and PHB and DMG only, all the way to 20, feats, spells and skills(if they are relevant for some reason).

[Cog]

Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is pretty much the classic core-only melee build.

[zimmerwald1915]

Somebody somewhere's going to say "Druid 20".

[Geigan]

Somebody somewhere's going to say "Druid 20".

And wizard 20, and cleric 20.

[Kobold-Bard]

Most of the best arcane spells are in the PHB anyway so Wizard 20, maybe throw in some Archmage if you're feeling crazy.

Druid 20 is a solid melee build as well as some magical backup & the whole "bear who summons bears while riding a bear" thing.

Maybe throw in an Expert 1/Rogue 19 if you feel the need.

[ericgrau]

I've had a lot of fun playing semi-core battlefield control sorcerers. Archers are pretty good too. For the sorc you pick the standard control spells, especially walls. For the archer you get the archery feats, fighter tree feats and the standard tricks (specialty arrows, etc.). Melee is pretty good too, but archers and sorcs are more tolerant to campaign/encounter variations and treasure flakey DMs. Reach, DR, lack of WBL for AC, other strange foes & wonky house rules, etc., etc. Likewise skills can suck from nothing more than being DM discretion. So ya, I've seen rogues and melee get it pretty hard due to wonky rules and situations, unfortunately. But sorcs and archers are pretty safe bets.

[FMArthur]

So I was curious to see what people would play if EXTREMELY limited.

I suspect to see someone go the Halfling mounted combat route. But what else would you "optimize"(not much with so little resources) from those two books?

Assume 32 point-buy and PHB and DMG only, all the way to 20, feats, spells and skills(if they are relevant for some reason).

Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard play mostly as normal. Druids in particular are the only melees with access to Pounce in core IIRC, and happen to be two melees rolled into one. Wizards and Sorcerers already have the mainstays of one-turn encounter-ending power and just-no-don't-even-try defensive options in core spells. Clerics are actually not quite as well-off as they are with Complete Divine and other books, but certainly hold their own with just the short-term buffs and some Cleric-only utility spells.

Barbarians are probably the next best off, with Rage mitigating the penalties from the Power Attack they rely on, among other generally small class features. But melee races are pretty much Orcs (full-blooded) and humans. Dwarves and Small races can do okay mounted. Paladins have the best chance of having high melee damage in Spirited Charge combined with Smite and Power Attack. Rogues can at least Sneak Attack in battle, and enjoy relative exclusivity in trap duties and skillmonkeying with Bards (social, UMD) and Rangers (awareness and combat skills).

Bards lack many options for improving Inspire Courage, but it's there and if you let them they can utterly destroy social encounters in a bad way. Rangers might be the next best off, having full BAB, skills, free feats and marginally useful spellcasting and animal companion - but they don't have much that they do particularly well.

Fighters run out of feats to take, and thus are only useful for multiclassing as Barbarians, Paladins and Rogues. There aren't even enough good melee feats in core to necessitate Fighter dips, though. Monks lack Improved Natural Attack from the Monster Manual, and generally suck at everything like normal.

[GodGoblin]

I think Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Eldritch knight could be rather effective. You may need to take extra levels of Paladin or Sorc for it to work but you get the idea.

[Malkav]

I was originally thinking Sorcadin, Cleric 18/Heirophant 2, Fighter 6/Paladin 4/Dwarven Defender 10.

[Gullintanni]

Archmage is still a solid PrC.

[GodGoblin]

Ah almost forgot about Archmage, would probably tack that on to the end of the sorcerer/paladin/Elditch knight build. Hmm really want to play that now...

[Titanium Fox]

I think Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Eldritch knight could be rather effective. You may need to take extra levels of Paladin or Sorc for it to work but you get the idea.


I was originally thinking Sorcadin, Cleric 18/Heirophant 2, Fighter 6/Paladin 4/Dwarven Defender 10.

...Aren't Eldrich Knight, Heirophant, and Dwarven Defender all in the Completes?

Also, I'd most likely go with an Arcane Trickster. Honestly, it would be an excuse to do so. I'm not a munchkin by any stretch, in fact I struggle to make characters at a moderate / average power level, but I do love to role play, and I could definitely see that prestige being fun to do so with.

[Gullintanni]

...Aren't Eldrich Knight, Heirophant, and Dwarven Defender all in the Completes?

Also, I'd most likely go with an Arcane Trickster. Honestly, it would be an excuse to do so. I'm not a munchkin by any stretch, in fact I struggle to make characters at a moderate / average power level, but I do love to role play, and I could definitely see that prestige being fun to do so with.

They're in the DMG.

[Telonius]

Cleric7/Thaumaturgist5/Loremaster8 is a pretty decent (if Feat-intensive) alternative to Cleric20. No lost caster levels, a cohort, and a bunch of other nifty stuff. You'll take a hit to Turn Undead, but it's probably worth it.

[Titanium Fox]

Well, shows how much I know. I could have sworn Eldrich Knight was Complete Divine though... Anyways. ><

[Malkav]

What do you think about Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 10/Arch 5 ?

[Gullintanni]

Cleric7/Thaumaturgist5/Loremaster8 is a pretty decent (if Feat-intensive) alternative to Cleric20. No lost caster levels, a cohort, and a bunch of other nifty stuff. You'll take a hit to Turn Undead, but it's probably worth it.

It's pretty hard to twink out Rebuke/Command in Core. You'd have a hard time Commanding yourself an equivalent level undead to the Cohort you'd get out of Thaumaturgist. Without all the neat things you can do to Turn Undead outside of core, it probably is worth it.

[GodGoblin]

What do you think about Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 10/Arch 5 ?

Would still be fun but you wont have access to Practiced Spellcaster feat so you will struggle with hitting the higher level DCs and SR

[Gullintanni]

Would still be fun but you wont have access to Practiced Spellcaster feat so you will struggle with hitting the higher level DCs and SR

Your DC's don't actually suffer here IIRC...just your CL. SR is your biggest concern. Also...the build in question is 21 levels. Assuming pre-epic you're just barely landing Wizard 9 Spells.

[Eldariel]

Best chars:

Stupid:
Wizard 5/Red Wizard of Thay 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4

Good:
Druid 20
Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5 OR Cleric 7/Loremaster 8/Thaumaturgist 5 (in fact, it's also plausible to cut 1 level of Cleric for 1 level of Hierophant for Divine Reach from the very end of the progression; as long as you have 9s, it's potentially worth the opportunity cost)
Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5

Multithreat:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/X 4 (Wizard, Archmage or Loremaster)
Ranger 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard-or-Archmage 2

Non-Casters:
Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1
Barbarian 12/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4 (it's not a real caster in spite of Sorc - just qualifies for DD)
Ranger 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 10/X


Off the top of my head. There's some other non-caster combinations but most of them have:
1) Poor Will-saves
2) Kinda just lacking in terms of options (once you have Improved Trip, Spirited Charge and Power Attack, you have largely exhausted the options of Core)
3) Lack in terms of tactical options

For casters, Mystic Theurge just gives up too much (especially since arcanists have good PRCs in Core; too bad Sorcs get screwed in that regard too :smallfurious:). Arcane Archer can't really be made work Core (you can't be a good caster and a good mage while fitting two full BAB non-casting levels in) and the rest is just meh. Hierophant is at most 1-3 level dip for CL inflation and/or Divine Reach after gaining 9s.

And then you have Blackguard (meh), Assassin (it's decent; Rogue/Assassin kinda sucks as a skill monkey but is definitely viable) & Dwarven Defender (meh; though the flat bonuses make it alright compared to straight Fighter in spite of never using Defensive Stance but generally Barbarian-base works better in Core anyways).


EDIT: Got ninja'd on some points. Meh. At least I'm more comprehensive.

[Tvtyrant]

Rogue 7/Assassin 7/DD 6 gets you more Assassin spells then the assassin.

[Eldariel]

Rogue 7/Assassin 7/DD 6 gets you more Assassin spells then the assassin.

Only prob is, to make the DD worthwhile you need to be Str-based :smallfrown:

[Malkav]

.the build in question is 21 levels.

oops -1....

[Tvtyrant]

Only prob is, to make the DD worthwhile you need to be Str-based :smallfrown:

Da, you would have to make it a strength based assassin. I'm sure its a possible build, though it would take a lot of work. The nice part about assassin is that you can invisibility though, so its better then Rogue for the strength thing.

Spiked Gauntlets+Long Spear, max out Strength and use a mithral breastplate. That makes for a reasonable SA build since you can flank with the reach weapon. Of course it would be better with SA Fighter but that would defeat the purpose. The lack of SA damage at end game is made up for (slightly) by the strength increase.

[Eldariel]

Da, you would have to make it a strength based assassin. I'm sure its a possible build, though it would take a lot of work. The nice part about assassin is that you can invisibility though, so its better then Rogue for the strength thing.

Mostly, it takes obscenely good rolls or sickeningly high point buy to get the Dex for TWF-line (you're Sneak Attacking, you do want TWF) & Rogue-skills & AC (since light armor and all that) while maintaining good enough Str to base your offense on it as a Medium BAB type.

I'd say to the tune of 18 and 17 unless going Dex & Str-bonus race (exactly one at LA +0; Wood Elf - with -2 Con & Int, which is kinda hazardous for a melee skill monkey with d6 HDs).

[Tvtyrant]

Mostly, it takes obscenely good rolls or sickeningly high point buy to get the Dex for TWF-line (you're Sneak Attacking, you do want TWF) & Rogue-skills & AC (since light armor and all that) while maintaining good enough Str to base your offense on it as a Medium BAB type.

I'd say to the tune of 18 and 17 unless going Dex & Str-bonus race (exactly one at LA +0; Wood Elf - with -2 Con & Int, which is kinda hazardous for a melee skill monkey with d6 HDs).

My one problem with this is that your throwing level after level at a system that rarely hits with all its attacks; TWF usually looks like a mini-flurry of misses IME.

[Eldariel]

My one problem with this is that your throwing level after level at a system that rarely hits with all its attacks; TWF usually looks like a mini-flurry of misses IME.

Well, depends on the amount of work we put into pumping the To Hit-score. You don't really have too good alternatives; you can't go ranged with Str and two-handing with sneak attack is just meh since you can't really Power Attack anyways.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, depends on the amount of work we put into pumping the To Hit-score. You don't really have too good alternatives; you can't go ranged with Str and two-handing with sneak attack is just meh since you can't really Power Attack anyways.

Well there is always UMD: True Strike but yeah I agree, not a whole lot of synergy. It would be easier to just play an Arcane Trickster.

[Calintares]

So I was curious to see what people would play if EXTREMELY limited.

I suspect to see someone go the Halfling mounted combat route. But what else would you "optimize"(not much with so little resources) from those two books?

Assume 32 point-buy and PHB and DMG only, all the way to 20, feats, spells and skills(if they are relevant for some reason).

In no way are the PHB and DMG limited or hard to optimize. In fact, the PHB is the single most unbalanced sourcebook in the entirety of D&D3.5 wy a wide margin.

[dextercorvia]

Remember that Dragon Disciple grants three natural attacks which would mitigate the loss of TWF. You can also take Ranger into Assassin if really want to TWF.

Ranger6/Assassin10/DragonDisciple4 could get an orifice-load of attacks with +5d6 SA. Multiattack is in the MM, right?

[Malkav]

I also like Rog1/Monk9/Ass10

[Incanur]

I'd probably go diviner 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5. For melee, a mount-focused paladin wouldn't be terrible if the campaign allowed for it. If evil, I'd do ranger 2/monk 4/barbarian 2/fighter 2/blackguard 10. Base saves F+20 R+10 W+7, base attack +19.

[Kobold-Bard]

I also like Rog1/Monk9/Ass10

What are you hoping to achieve with this build?

[Gullintanni]

Ranger6/Assassin10/DragonDisciple4 could get an orifice-load of attacks with +5d6 SA. Multiattack is in the MM, right?

Correct. Improved Natural Attack is as well. The OP specified PHB and DMG only though, but -5 only misses as often as the second iterative attack. You're still going to hit pretty often with your secondary attacks and you get all your iteratives.

[dextercorvia]

Correct. Improved Natural Attack is as well. The OP specified PHB and DMG only though, but -5 only misses as often as the second iterative attack. You're still going to hit pretty often with your secondary attacks and you get all your iteratives.

Yeah, I realized after I posted. I was thinking core only. That's still 9 attacks.

[Telonius]

What are you hoping to achieve with this build?

Getting UMD on the class skill list so he can use partially charged wands easier, maybe?

There are only a few things that could make a standard Monk worse than it is. Requiring him to have a 14 INT score (which is what that build basically does) is one of them.

[Draz74]

I'd like to point out that Druid 20 actually sucks.*

After all, the sources we're allowed to pick from don't include any Animal (or Magical Beast or Elemental) stat blocks, so Wild Shape and Summon Nature's Ally are useless. :smalltongue:

* Compared to most Wizard or Cleric or Sorcerer builds.

[ericgrau]

Well in core outside of custom dire X animal gear cheese which somehow swaps every time I get a new animal type, I wouldn't want a core druid 20 in a dungeon. Outdoors is good, but a dungeon is harder. It could be done with so-so success, but the best abilities could be done better with another class.


It's pretty hard to twink out Rebuke/Command in Core. You'd have a hard time Commanding yourself an equivalent level undead to the Cohort you'd get out of Thaumaturgist. Without all the neat things you can do to Turn Undead outside of core, it probably is worth it.

All you really need is the phylactery of undead turning and circlet of persuasion to keep up forever. It's not worth focusing on (a high cha isn't critical), but it's still worth getting in core.

[Gullintanni]

All you really need is the phylactery of undead turning and circlet of persuasion to keep up forever. It's not worth focusing on (a high cha isn't critical), but it's still worth getting in core.

This is only true if you're satisfied Turning/Rebuking undead. If that's your ambition, then more power to you. But if you want to really keep up as a Turning/Rebuking master, you need to set the bar a little higher. You need to keep up by Destroying/Commanding. You simply can't do that in core. A Nightwing, for example, is impossible to Destroy or Command pre-epic. If you include LM, you can theoretically do it at level 2, assuming infinite WBL.

My point is that as a Level 14 cleric, in order to Command a Nightwing by level 14, you need an effective Cleric level of 28. This is achievable with Libris Mortis. Without the book, it's impossible. So to my point earlier, the Cohort you get via Thaumaturgist will be more valuable to an equal level cleric than anything you can Command using only core materials.


I'd like to point out that Druid 20 actually sucks.*

After all, the sources we're allowed to pick from don't include any Animal (or Magical Beast or Elemental) stat blocks, so Wild Shape and Summon Nature's Ally are useless. :smalltongue:


I see what you did there...:smallamused:

[gorfnab]

Here is a thread full of Core only builds: Core Compositions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8146.0)

[ericgrau]

This is only true if you're satisfied Turning/Rebuking undead. If that's your ambition, then more power to you. But if you want to really keep up as a Turning/Rebuking master, you need to set the bar a little higher. You need to keep up by Destroying/Commanding. You simply can't do that in core. A Nightwing, for example, is impossible to Destroy or Command pre-epic. If you include LM, you can theoretically do it at level 2, assuming infinite WBL.
Sun domain. Though usually anything you turn might as well be dead, because by the time he returns 20 rounds later it'll be 4v1 and a healed up party. The only time that doesn't hold true is when it's a solitary foe, in which case nothing that isn't broken will one shot him anyway.

[Gullintanni]

Sun domain. Though usually anything you turn might as well be dead, because by the time he returns 20 rounds later it'll be 4v1 and a healed up party. The only time that doesn't hold true is when it's a solitary foe, in which case nothing that isn't broken will one shot him anyway.

Absolutely. But as stated my point was a comparison of the Command element of Rebuking vs the Thaumaturgists' Planar Cohort, the point of Turn/Rebuke undead is not to kill undead. They're far too useful for that. But if you're going to confine yourself to PHB and DMG, then Turning/Rebuking is just unnecessary. Commanding effective undead is impossible. You just can't hit a high enough effective turning level. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Ah then if that's what you want to do then that's how you do it. :smalltongue:

[Randomguy]

Why does everyone say monk is so bad? They get three good saves and evasion and flurry of blows gives them a decent BAB at higher levels, not to mentions their special monk powers (spell resistance, to name one) and the unarmoured AC bonus. (And yes, before anyone asks, I am a noob.)

[ericgrau]

Ah careful they have an especially bad rep here lol. Though elsewhere there are reports of people playing them successfully.

I tend to see two issues:
1. Person focuses purely on unarmed strike damage, which is less than weapon damage, and ignores all other class features. The monk has less AB, damage, HP and AC than others, failure ensues.
2. Optimizers find easier ways to do the same things as class features using splatbooks.

What you need is that niche of a well optimized core build, which is unlikely to appear online where the optimizers know much better tricks than that. Offline it comes often with experience. Yeah you hit part of it; good saves, touch AC and SR, plus working around the drawbacks. Grapple the wisp, don't punch the ogre.

EDIT: @V Swordsaged you. So, nope, too slow.

[Geigan]

Why does everyone say monk is so bad? They get three good saves and evasion and flurry of blows gives them a decent BAB at higher levels, not to mentions their special monk powers (spell resistance, to name one) and the unarmoured AC bonus. (And yes, before anyone asks, I am a noob.)
Inb4 swordsage.

[Draz74]

Why does everyone say monk is so bad? They get three good saves and evasion
Nice, but intelligent monsters will just ignore you and attack your allies if you have good defenses and poor offense.


and flurry of blows gives them a decent BAB at higher levels,
Flurry or no flurry, they only have Medium BAB, which means compared to another warrior class they'll always have a small problem with their attacks missing too often.

At low levels, the attack penalty for Flurry only makes this problem worse. At high levels, the fact that they can't permanently enchant their fists makes this problem worse.

Not to mention that they can only Flurry when they get a full attack, which means they can't use Flurry and all their mobility features (like fast movement) at the same time.

In short, Flurry of Blows is often nicknamed "Flurry of Misses."


not to mentions their special monk powers (spell resistance, to name one)
Spell Resistance is more often harmful than helpful, as it blocks friendly buffs that your party wants to cast on you. (Unless you waste your turns in combat to lower your SR.)

Other Monk abilities have similar hidden problems or limitations. Quivering Palm is only 1/week. :smallyuk: Abundant Step is only 1/day (and is still one of their best abilities). Perfect Self grants useless Damage Reduction and makes you immune to nice buffs like Enlarge Person. Poison and disease immunity are nearly insignificant, self-healing isn't enough to be worth wasting a combat action on. Overall, the mediocrity of the Monk specials is impressively consistent.


and the unarmoured AC bonus. (And yes, before anyone asks, I am a noob.)
Run the numbers. Even with the unarmored AC bonus and some Bracers of Armor, the Monk will have lower AC than a normal warrior-type, especially at high levels. Even at low levels, he can only keep up if he happens to have a high DEX and WIS.

That brings up another key issue: by default, the Monk needs a good STR so he can make accurate attacks and trip or grapple effectively; a good DEX if he wants half-decent AC, good CON if he wants to survive a couple of melee attacks, good INT if he wants to play a decent scout (which people want him to do, because of his fluff and his good class skills), and a good WIS if he wants half-decent AC or Stunning Fists that might actually work.

Most characters don't (can't) have high STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS. :smalltongue:

[Jude_H]

For fighter-types, it's hard to go too wrong with:
[fighting class] 2 -> [3/4 BA caster class*] 18
(*Assassin and Eldritch Knight multiclasses are also valid.)

Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is a powerhouse until ECL 16 or so.

Red Wizard isn't hard to break.

[Kobold-Bard]

Nice, but intelligent monsters will just ignore you and attack your allies if you have good defenses and poor offense.


Flurry or no flurry, they only have Medium BAB, which means compared to another warrior class they'll always have a small problem with their attacks missing too often.

At low levels, the attack penalty for Flurry only makes this problem worse. At high levels, the fact that they can't permanently enchant their fists makes this problem worse.

Not to mention that they can only Flurry when they get a full attack, which means they can't use Flurry and all their mobility features (like fast movement) at the same time.

In short, Flurry of Blows is often nicknamed "Flurry of Misses."


Spell Resistance is more often harmful than helpful, as it blocks friendly buffs that your party wants to cast on you. (Unless you waste your turns in combat to lower your SR.)

Other Monk abilities have similar hidden problems or limitations. Quivering Palm is only 1/week. :smallyuk: Abundant Step is only 1/day (and is still one of their best abilities). Perfect Self grants useless Damage Reduction and makes you immune to nice buffs like Enlarge Person. Poison and disease immunity are nearly insignificant, self-healing isn't enough to be worth wasting a combat action on. Overall, the mediocrity of the Monk specials is impressively consistent.


Run the numbers. Even with the unarmored AC bonus and some Bracers of Armor, the Monk will have lower AC than a normal warrior-type, especially at high levels. Even at low levels, he can only keep up if he happens to have a high DEX and WIS.

That brings up another key issue: by default, the Monk needs a good STR so he can make accurate attacks and trip or grapple effectively; a good DEX if he wants half-decent AC, good CON if he wants to survive a couple of melee attacks, good INT if he wants to play a decent scout (which people want him to do, because of his fluff and his good class skills), and a good WIS if he wants half-decent AC or Stunning Fists that might actually work.

Most characters don't (can't) have high STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS. :smalltongue:

Basically everyone should just get this & a few other posts about other classes etc. sent as part of their welcome PM. And never again would it have to be repeated.

[Malkav]

What are you hoping to achieve with this build?

Walking unarmed into the presence of my mark and murdering him.

[Eldariel]

Why does everyone say monk is so bad? They get three good saves and evasion and flurry of blows gives them a decent BAB at higher levels, not to mentions their special monk powers (spell resistance, to name one) and the unarmoured AC bonus. (And yes, before anyone asks, I am a noob.)

The principal issues:
- Most warriors are good on low levels. Monks are terrible on low levels (due to lack of Armor & Weapon Proficiencies - Monk weapons lose to Martial Weapons hardcore and 2-3 points from Wis to AC loses to real armor bad); they'll have low AC, damage and To Hit (and one use of Stunning Fist, huzzah!) and no spells to make up for it. Monk is the worst PC class for level 1 game in the whole of D&D 3.5, barely beating Soulknives to the questionable honor.
- Monks need high Strength (for damage & Trip/Grapple), Dexterity, Wisdom (for AC & Saves & Initiative & Stunning Fist) and Constitution to keep up. It's rare to have access to 3 16s & a 14 (let alone 1 18, 2 16s and a 14).
- Monks kind of serve like party scouts, except they have low skill points per level (with 10 Int they can barely max out Spot, Listen, Hide & Move Silently; lacks Tumble, Balance, Diplomacy and such) and they don't have Trapfinding (so it's really, really risky for them to scout any dungeon.
- Monks are seen as combat maneuver machines but fact is, they have Medium BAB which makes them worse grapplers than e.g. Barbarians or Fighters and grappling becomes obsolete at a point (due to Freedom of Movement and massive sizes of most opponents). Tripping is a tad kinder to them but due to their need for multiple attributes, it's still hard to keep it high enough and in any case, Barbarians are better at it.
- Monks are more hurt by the lack of full attacks than most, because they rely on Flurry of Blows for damage. If you need to move in a round (something you'd think Monks excel in with their inherent movement speed boosts), you can only attack once. Same with attacks of opportunity, charges and the like.
- Monks' class features aren't, frankly, very impressive. Spell Resistance has to be lowered as a standard action to receive friendly spells, meaning you can't e.g. be buffed or Teleported out in combat. Most of them amount to "do something a magic item does once per day" and some not even that (yay Slow Fall, Immunity to Disease, Heal About Enough To Count As D10 HD class & all that!).

For most intents and purposes, Monks are subsumed by Rogues. Rogues fight better thanks to Sneak Attack, except against immunities (where, mind, Monks have trouble too as their Stunning Fist-chain is negated).

Rogues scout miles better than Monks, having tons of skillpoints, lessened need for high Str (thanks to SA) and Wis (though it's still convenient) and consequentially, probably higher Int (for even more skillz) and Trapfinding. Rogues also obviously skill monkey it better out of combat, having a wider skill list.

Defensively, Rogues have better AC for most of the game while Monks will have better Will & Fort-saves, and few more HP. This is definitely an advantage for Monks, but since the Monks' output is so poor, it unfortunately isn't enough. Nobody cares about the turtle, after all, when there's lions to fight.

[Telonius]

Walking unarmed into the presence of my mark and murdering him.

Well, it is possible for you to do that; the problem is that there are quite a few (even Core) classes that can do it better. Rogue generally makes a better Assassin than Monk, though a two-level dip does help for bonus feats, saves, and hitpoints. More than that is too much.

There are two big problems with the Death Attack ability. First is that you need four rounds to pull it off (three to study the mark, and a fourth to carry it out). In terms of combat, this is forever. While you're lurking, other classes could have already killed the mark twice.

Second is that the attack still has to hit, and the save is fairly low. By the time you're Assassin10, you're probably fighting (minimum) CR16 foes. These tend to have high fort saves or are immune to death effects. If you pump INT to get the save higher, those stat points have to come from somewhere.

[Akal Saris]

Eldariel already posted the strongest build that I could think of:
Human Wiz (Transmuter or Conjurer) 5/Red Wizard 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4

Circle Magic shenanigans indeed!

Here's a new one:
Human Bard 6/Assassin 9/Blackguard 5
-BAB +14, SA +6d6 and a flanking buddy, 6/day bardic music up to suggestion, Cha to saves, poison use, hide in plain sight, aura of despair, DC ~24ish death attack with an OK int and ability focus, lots of skills early on when they matter, and some other random abilities. Probably not that optimized, but I'd enjoy playing it in a core-only game.