WWBtDMD: What would Bob the DM do?

[Bob the DM]

Short time reader, first time poster.

As a professional DM (ie. I'll choose to DM 90% of the time over playing), I see/hear about lots of games that are railroaded for plot's sake, or really have a hard time balancing the abilities of higher level characters or even low level characters, or just don't have the umph to actually be an epic poem/story told by the bards of old. I want to change all that. Plus I read a post where someone's signature was about sending your kids to DM camp and I really liked it.

(actually all that is a lie. I just like talking DnD)

So I thought I'd start a thread to offer answers to any DM questions out there instead of writing a Bob's guide to DMing.

A big thing to note is your average human has 10-11 in all stats and has an NPC class. An adventurer represents less than 5% of the population.
An npc with a single level in a PC class is a trained professional.
Level 2 is a battle hardened veteran, Level 3 is a minor hero, Level 4 is on par with a gold metal Olympic athlete, and at level 5 you're the kind of guy who comes around once in a generation. Level 6 and up is well into the category of superhuman. If you remember that, and drill that into your characters, then they'll learn to respect monsters that have a 12 or 14 as their average strength.

I read a fantastic article that I'll try to find and post here to really explain those assertions so you can also understand what I mean, because when the players understand what it really means to be in the top .5% of the population with a 12 to 18 in all their stats and just how special it is to be level 8, your whole campaign takes on a new meaning.

Read this article,
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
Seriously, reading and understanding all that will almost instantly take your DMing to the next level!!!

[Vladislav]

Eh, lot of questionable assumptions presented as fact.

Let's, as a thought exercise, agree with this one questionable assumption that 95% of the population in the world* are unremarkable 1st level commoners. So what? The PCs, for the most part, don't interact with them. Ok, they may see a lot of first level commoners working in the fields or mulling in the market square as they travel by, but that doesn't mean they have to interact with every one of them. These exist, for the most part, in the background. The PCs are going to interact with the road bandit, the troll under the bridge, the merchant selling exotic spell components, the captain of the guard, the thieving street urchin who picks their pocket ... you know, interesting people. Those that have something interesting, be it information, combat challenge, or anything else.

I wouldn't want to play in a game where 95% of the people I interact with are unremarkable, and are merely losers design to show me "how special I am". I have enough self-confidence to know I'm special already.

* Which world? Who created this world? You? Well, if you did, you surely have control over it, so who am I to argue. But what if it's another DM's world? Who are you to tell them which characters populate their world??

[Bob the DM]

Actually that's how it's decribed in the DMG. Or in the Monster manual. A whole goblin tribe of 400 capable "warriors" has an additional 400 persons of "noncombat status", 1 2nd level char for every 20 individuals, something like 2@ 3-4 level guys and a single leader at 4-6 level. or something like that. You can describe your campaign however you like and I certainly won't objects but relax man. :)

If you really step back and thing about it, it will help you create a proper feeling for your adventurers of any level. Why is a hill giant so tough? It has 14 HD and 20+ strength. Take a tape measure and roll out 12 feet and then stand it up. No you see just how big it is. Is an ogre really big at 9 feet? I mean a human can easily be 6 feet tall. But do the tape measure thing and you see just how HUGE a 9 foot tall monster is.

Don't get mad. If you want to have a world that has the PCs only dealing with at least cr 8 monsters and races with classes at 6-8 minimum, that's cool. But it's much easier to get your "feel" down if you can convey what the would mean in the world of Earth.

Clearly you don't need to "ask Bob" so this thread is not for you. :p

[Nich_Critic]

The other problem with that is that PC's very quickly outgrow the shackles of 1-6 (unless you're playing E6). If level 6 is the best, toughest swordsman in the land, what do the PC's do when they hit level 7? 12? 15? What can possibly challenge them?

You can say "Monsters of higher CR", but that begs the question of why those monsters haven't destroyed everything already (since the world bends to their whim. Who opposes them, the 5th level expert blacksmith?). And you can't have good organizational conflict beyond a certain level, because the PCs will just win. So you end up with the prince who's also a level 10 warblade and employs an 8th level wizard, simply so that the PC's can't scry and kill him for money. It doesn't matter that Aragorn is only 5th level, because unless you cap the maximum level, the leveling system doesn't play nice with lotr logic.

Not to mention, once you introduce the completes, the capabilities of even a 1st level character far surpass anything you'd see in ordinary fantasy. See any of the arena's on these very boards for an example of 1st level might.

[gbprime]

The other problem with that is that PC's very quickly outgrow the shackles of 1-6 (unless you're playing E6). If level 6 is the best, toughest swordsman in the land, what do the PC's do when they hit level 7? 12? 15? What can possibly challenge them?

The PC's have to venture farther afield to find challenges... like going to the Ruins of Suicidal Insanity, visiting the Underworld for a jailbreak, or following a lead on an artifact in the City of Brass. And if the DM is doing their job right, some of those challenges will come back on the PC's later, invading the boring old city where the PC's started with stuff that none of the city guards or the local level 10 wizard in residence can handle on their own.

That said, I also ascribe to the idea that the majority of people the PC's have conflict with will be that top 5% of the population who could give them a run for their money. Yes, the vast majority are commoners, experts, aristocrats, and even adepts, but to rise above that to a position of power often takes talent. So the mayors, guild leaders, and plot-movers are going to be experts at the very least, and likely to have class levels to challenge the PC's. (Such challenges often involve throwing cannon-fodder at the PC's, because that's who they have staffing their organizations.)

[Bob the DM]

Sadly, you're missing the point. I was posting this thread as a QandA for DM's, brainstorming, if you like.

But to put this sidebar arguement to rest (hopefully), I'll flesh it out for you. In the game I'm running (look for a swordsage's journal on this site), I intend to take a group of level 1's through to epic levels, if they survive to get there.

They've finaly gotten to level three. They truely understand how powerfull they are now in relation to those both weaker and stronger than them, as they've seen what 10 goblins are as a threat, and how tough bugbears or 1rst level hobgoblin fighters are. Now that they were pitted against nine 2-3 level hobgoblin fighters and suvived with the help of a 5th level hobgoblin barbarian, they can finish their quest and delve into the ruins of a temple of pelor and when they see the zombies and clerics there, they truely understand what it means to acts intelligently or fail and die.

They've met a level 11 wizard a few times over a few games, who is up until this point been paid by someone to help them with their goals, although as an elderly wizard, he has his own priorities. All they know about his power is that he has bearded devils as guards for his tower and is able to geas them and shoot lighting from his fingertips. They all fear him, because they understand what "normal" power is and what level he's at. Depending on how this all goes, he might be a reacurring character either as an enemy or an ally.
So, the area they're in now is dominated by goblinoids. Why haven't the fire giants (who they just heard a passing reference too), just taken over the whole area? Well, they'll find out when they meet with an adolecent stone giant they rescued by being tricked into fighting him in the arena and dieing. Clearly, not only (read the monster manuel), are giant societies smaller than goblinoids, but there's a whole collection of stone giant tribes that would rather mine diamonds than rule the world, right in their way.

So, when the PC's hit 6th level and enter the realm of the "super human". They'll not adventure in the area they're in now. And what if, now that they're better than 95 percent of the people in their area, decide to just rape and pillage where they are now? Well you better believe that realistically, the nobles have on retainer a retired 8-10th level adventurer (and more than one), who lives the high life just as a protection aginst people like them in case they try to overthrow the regime. That is both logical and realistic.

So clearly, once they hit level six, they'll move onto different area's than where they spend their level 1-5 days. They'll might even go somewhere where "level 6" is the new "level 3". That's why there's a DM, to move the world around while the PC's do their thing.

So there you have it. My point was that now the players understand what it MEANS to be level 1, 2, and 3. They'll play differently, the whole game as they understand the world around them better. They'll start where level 3 is a big deal and (assuming they suvive), grow into epic levels all in the same world. And have fun. And have a game that has epic parts. Because I'm a good dm and I know how to let my players guide the game without destorying the plot.

That's what I was starting the thread to discuss DM stuff and general DMing practices, not argue how dnd characters don't want to talk to farmers because they can kill armies of stupid level 1 commoners and that somehow without 10th level farmers the game is broken.

Good, let the 8th level players rule the contryside by slaughterong all that lives there until a wealthy noble pays a CR 12-14 dragon TONs of coins to come in and kill them. Which it will. And when they complain, you can tell them that it's your fault for not making them understand relative power levels and that the DnD world is like the real one, where there is always a bigger badass out there (and if a nobleman wants you dead he won't send a CR 8 assassin to kill an ECL 8 party , he'll send an ECL 12 one). Then you can tell them it was also their fault for being stupid and killing all the farmers just because they could? Ask them what they thought would happen. Then, you can all chalk it up to a learning experience and start a new campaign at level one in the same region, only now the area is ruled by an evil dragon that was brought here by some mid level jerks who's names are now cursed throught the land. Make the new 1rst level PC's first cousins on the old party and have everyone start off hostile, if they even hear their family names.

So, that's how I get my players to really understand what the abstract "levels" mean and I've found that since I've done this my games have been much better since everyone has a base reference for power. I'd like this thread to be about DMing for DM's, so he's hoping the new post is a non confrontational question or thought to brainstorm. :D

[KoboldCleric]

Oi! Oi! Let the man have his thread! Of course each DM and each group has their own playstyle and agreement on power levels and what "fantasy" is supposed to look like, no one is arguing that ... but the style and power level of play described in the DMG and which seems to be assumed as the standard in many 3.x books as a holdover from older editions tends to be very much as the good Mr. Bob has described.

My games tend to run much more like what has been described here than many of those I see desribed around the playground: The day doesn't start and end with the availability of the spellcaster's high end spell slots, nor indeed do casters regain their slots at every opportunity; Magic is treated much as Jedi treat the force: something powerful and dangerous and only to be used when absolutely necessary: YMMV, as always, but in my experience "Scry and Die" and similarly "optimal" tactics just do not see play in practice.

If the players and the DM are cooperatively telling a story, it goes without saying that they can set the bar where they will and make whatever assumptions about the world they wish. In a more "traditional" fantasy world, many of the things Bob the DM describes meet expectations. I imagine the article he makes reference to (and can't quite remember) is one similar to this essay, which is the one which immediately came to mind from his post: Notice the title (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

As Rich points out in OOTS, Power isn't something that can be quantified in any other unit of measure. Power is Power. The strongest guy doesn't always beat the weaker guy. The smartest guy can be outwitted. In this world, I think it's fair to say that the Presidents and Kings of countries are very rarely the objectively "best" person for the job. It's not too hard to imagine a fantasy setting existing similarly.

Tl;dr version: if your games have a different power level/playstyle emphasis that's fine, this thread isn't really for you. You're not wrong and neither are we, so what's to argue about? I'd honestly like to see some legitimate questions for the good DM.

EDIT: completely swordsaged

[DogbertLinc]

I'm just not sure how much of his thread he'll have, being that he made a thread to tell people how much better than them he is.

I, for one, wouldn't ask for help when having it offered like that, and would much prefer to just make a thread for all of the forum to answer.

But, good luck to you.

[Taelas]

The other problem with that is that PC's very quickly outgrow the shackles of 1-6 (unless you're playing E6). If level 6 is the best, toughest swordsman in the land, what do the PC's do when they hit level 7? 12? 15? What can possibly challenge them?
You misunderstand.

Level 5 is the limit for our world -- the real world. The D&D world can easily have characters above this, they are simply superhuman. (Personally I'd place Aragorn a bit higher than 5, but certainly no higher than 8.)


You can say "Monsters of higher CR", but that begs the question of why those monsters haven't destroyed everything already (since the world bends to their whim. Who opposes them, the 5th level expert blacksmith?).
The other monsters, of course. What, you think all those Good monsters in the MM just sit around waiting for PCs to come along and do their job for them?


And you can't have good organizational conflict beyond a certain level, because the PCs will just win. So you end up with the prince who's also a level 10 warblade and employs an 8th level wizard, simply so that the PC's can't scry and kill him for money. It doesn't matter that Aragorn is only 5th level, because unless you cap the maximum level, the leveling system doesn't play nice with lotr logic.
If you cannot stop your PCs from killing everything in sight with anything short of brute force, this is true... and some PCs will not be stopped. There is also nothing wrong with having the prince be a superior warrior... but not all royalty should automatically have ten levels in a class just to be royalty. Look at how royalty in the real world worked. The leader himself does not have to be a good fighter, he simply needs to have the respect and devotion of those who are.

[Bob the DM]

Clearly the humour of the title WWBtDMD was lost on you if you think I started a thread to tell people that I'm great. Everyone already knows I'm great. I already said so. :D

I just wanted a thread where you can post a general question for brainstormings. The name "Bob" is a generic as they come so it's open to all DMs.

The responces started with silly arguements about things that if you don't know how to solve you either should ask someone, or not DM. The base of any DnD realm is always the core dnd world, which is based on the real world, so if you run it differently, good. But all abstracts need some comparission to reality to get a baseline.

Sorry for any trouble. ;)

[Jaraak]

Bob. Don't bother to Whine and Dine haters.

I have a question.

As a DM how would you recommend dealing with games that tend to bog down once players hit level 11+. I find it harder and harder to design challenging and interesting encounters.

I'm talking encounters, not monsters. Some approaches are to just throw interesting and creative monsters at PC's but I find that to be a bit weak; you can do that anytime.

I'm talking about that great encounter where they were level 1 and 2 admist a horde of zombies making a fighting withdrawal down the streets of an overrun district of some non-descript city.

Or having to fool a guard patrol that they're being chased by a dragon and do not have time to be searched for several thousand golds worth of trade goods being smuggled in via grain filled carts; without simply teleporting in.

I just find once these PC's get uber powerful (11+) it becomes incredible difficult to keep things fresh and interesting.

Suggestions?

[Bob the DM]

I also frequently had trouble here. At 15+ the heroes are dealing with the big boys one or two steps removed from the big campaign that sees them go epic, while at 6+ they're just getting a real taste of power and only really one step removed from a level 1-5 campaign. So 11-14 is really the big transition levels where the game REALLY requires a good story to advance, as you can't go too big or too small.

In my mind, the campaign at level 1-5 has the pc's doing minor tasks, but they can realistically be cogs in a much larger machine. While plot uses them to advance the story, they're not the most important part to a political coup, for example. While 6+ is entering the "superhuman", it's just barely there. The heroes could stop the most powerful raiding hobgoblin warband of 30-40 level 2's and 3's, with a level 4-5 cleric and 4-5 fighter. They couldn't just run in and hacking away, but they're the group that gets hired to deal with the problem. Then the pc's go questing to gain power, minor storylines blah blah blah, and they get the feeling about how strong they are and what it's like to be mid level in your world. So, now to your question, where do you go from there? I like to come full circle to level 1 plot as both a set-up for bigger and better things, as well as giving the pc's a taste of something new.
Now, though, they're big enough that plot actually revolves around them.
They enter a Liche's territory (level 15 wiz/clr). The liche, not wanting to be discovered, or even stick his neck out might manipulate a dragon to come and attack the party, or just the town they're in. The dragon fails, but it's odd as there was never a dragon problem before. As the party gets suspitious (and the liche nervous), a rider comes in with news that the very wealthy and well connected regent of a nearby land wishes to meet the hereos of note (of course the lich is behind it). They go and are offered a staff job to deal with high level characters who want to cause trouble in the realm as the previous 10th level ftr randomly and oddly as he's 50 years old, to take up adventuring again. As they go to think about it for the night, blah, blah, blah political intrigue, king is dead pc's framed old fighter + court wizard dead and the pc's have been framed. So, back to level 1, they're arrested by a bunch of giants (friends of the well connected king), and they get shipped off to a place where 11 HD isn't special, like amongst giants.
Now you're back in that tense area you had in low levels. Play half the campaign in the area's where level 11's are hugely powerfull, and half where they're in mortal danger. They investigate, solve the case, get a couple of clues that the court wizard faked his own death, was responcible, but for seemingly no reason, but they learn of links between the court wizard and where they were attacked by that dragon... "Come to think of it, things did START getting odd after we travelled there, let go investigate". Now they've made a few levels, learned that they're both powerfull and vulnerable, all the while as part of the same kind of exciting/tense plot they had at level 1, just now the story really does revolve around them. And you have a lead in to a very tense investigation where you can through rough and tumble monsters at them, as it'll make sense for the story (as the lich tries to kill the pc's without giving away the fact that he's there and he's a lich), and you have an investigation tht should definately tax the players resources (rooting out a hidden 15th level lich).


What's the make-up of your group? What kind of campaign are you running? Is the group uniform in alignment, or is there the potential for dm incited infighting? :)

Another way to do it, which would really let you have a lot of fun encounters is have them run into a Bard. At level 11+ the pc's are certainly noteworthy. Don't let the players know at the start, but let's say that the High Temple for the god of mischief is haveing their once a decade election of a new high priest. The way they pick a new one is by having a contest to see who can really muck up some high level heroes/villains. All the four candidates are able to cast miracle or some ritual through the bard's modify memory spell so it's instantneous instead od dispell-able. The Bard who also worships the god of mischief is the impartial judge. So this bard comes along and meets them in an inn and tells them that he wants to write an epic poem about there exploits. He'd make it... and then cut to everyone sitting laughing by the campfire in the woods a little drunk and the bard stands up and says, "Thank you my friends for your help, I'm off to find her now." And teleports/planeshifts away. If anyone wants then can spellcraft/intelligence check a modified (instantaneous instead of permanent), modify memory spell and wait... where are they? Why is it a different season?
Then you can have all sorts of fun by having them have no idea what happened the last 3-4 months and why they're wanted across the country. If they're good characters they can't just kill their pursuers. If the keep escaping the authorities, maybe a well know high level ranger is sent after them. You can mix in cool monsters/higher level npc bounty hunters they're fleeing as well as having no idea how to deal with the authorities in this area as they don't know what's going on. As the DM, you can write a quest they performed that they now can't remember and the people it affected are out to take revenge/thank them. That's something you can really only do properly with higher level heroes and has all the possible elements of cool encounters that aren't just 'fight this monster' oriented.