Gaara (Naruto) Vs. Crocodile (One Piece)

[John Cribati]

Ladies and gentle men! Welcome to the battle of the masters of sandh4x.

In this corner, the red-haired Kazekage demoniac with love written on his head, Gaara of the Sand!

*whoo*

And in this corner, leader of Baroque Works, Crocodile!

*whoo*

Both ninja and pirate have sand manipulation powers that they use in the cheapest of ways! They are on a beach. And they will fight to the death!

Can Croc get past Gaara being a turtling mother****er?

How will Gaara react to Croc's "I turn my body into sand and thus am not affected" shtick?

That's for you to decide.

Also: In before ninjas vs. pirates.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Well, if Gaara can get Crocodile into the water, then he has a much better chance. And if it's pre-Shippuden, he has an even better chance of ripping him to shreds (since he still would have the 1-Tails). And then you have his whole auto-defense mechanic. I'm going with Gaara.

[Mikeavelli]

It really depends. Gaara at all points in the series is pretty clearly more powerful than Crocodile. Even after he loses the 1-tails, he's still got a ridiculously enormous chakra reserve that lets him pull out multiple world-altering abilities one after another, and post-timeskip he's refined his abilities enough that his improved skill easily makes up for his reduced raw power.

If he's aware of Crocodile's weakness, and water is around, he'd be able to get Crocodile wet and beat him senseless without any problems. Remember, Gaara can manipulate wet sand as well as dry sand, and there's plenty of blood in there.

However, given who the two are, they'll probably fight in the desert, and Gaara doesn't necessarily know about how Logia fruits work. Even though "Ninja" are supposed to be supreme information gatherers, that doesn't appear to be a strong point of the series.

It all comes down to if Gaara can figure out the "trick" to defeating Crocodile before he runs out of chakra, since without water, Crocodile can "LOL Sand hax" away anything Gaara has been shown capable of doing.

[Traab]

Depends on if garras demonically backed sand control can effect sand croc. Otherwise its a stalemate. Garra cant hurt croc, crocs attacks all get either stopped by garra or taken over by him. Another option is, if garras automatic defense doesnt drain his chakra, he could let croc wear himself out trying to hurt him.

[AtlanteanTroll]

They are on a beach.

This is why I brought up Crocodile's water weakness. I agree though, they are more likely to fight in a desert.

[Traab]

Heres a battle plan. One of Garras abilities is to make more sand by grinding up the earth around him. Once he realizes that he cant hurt croc, and cant control him when he is sand, he forces him to go sand mode, then uses HIS sand to grind the croc sand into even finer particles. Its worth a shot at least. He could also confine croc into his sand coffin ball and leave him stuck and trapped. He cant resolidify, and he cant trickle his way out.

[Mr. Scaly]

Hmm. Haven't actually seen One Piece in ages, but as I understand it Crocodile's special power is that he can turn himself to sand right? And I remember from Gaara's fight with Kimimaro he could control the sand in an area around him. So could he conceivably do that to Crocodile? I don't know...I never got that far in One Piece. Darn you dub...

[druid91]

Wait what if Crocodile pulls a Deidara and gets himself incorporated into the sand defense. Then reforms inside to Smash Gaara in the face.

[Traab]

Wait what if Crocodile pulls a Deidara and gets himself incorporated into the sand defense. Then reforms inside to Smash Gaara in the face.

Sand armor. He may get past the sand shield that way, but since the sand armor is static, he shouldnt be able to get inside the second layer. Thats assuming he CAN get incorporated into garras sand without being torn to shreds. I mean, its all infused with his chakra after all, so either there would be a visible blank spot with the sand thats not under his control, or it IS under his control and croc is ruined.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm an avid reader of both One Piece and Naruto, but personally I'd have to give this to Crocodile. His physical durability (regular durability, not Logia durability) is FAR outside what a lot of Naruto characters have showcased taking directly without some mitigating aspect like a healing factor or some form of tight to the chest shield or something similar. Remember that he survived being punched through several feet of solid bedrock by Luffy and this was after going through a veritable meat grinder against an opponent with substantial superhuman strength. Then you have him being "baptized" at Impel Down where he went through being exposed to searing, boiling hot water without even flinching, something that made hardened men cry and scream like infants.

With his Logia abilities though he's even more impressive. Remember that he took on Hawkeye Mihawk (and talked down to him like he was lesser than him when it would come to a fight and this is saying something when the man cut a tidal wave in half), Donquioxte Doflamingo (who effortlessly crippled Oars Jr.) and Admiral Akainu (who was a serious threat and ended up killing Ace) and came out of all three fights unscathed and no worse for the wear during the War of Marineford arc.

Crocodile can pull off a lot of the same tricks as Gaara but can do so essentially infinitely since it doesn't appear that his usage of the Suna Suna no Mi has any kind of drain of his stamina unlike Gaara needing Chakra to use the vast majority of his abilities.

I just don't see Gaara really being able to do anything that could conceivably hurt Crocodile while Crocodile at worse would only have to turn the battle into a waiting game until Gaara runs out of Chakra. Some would argue that the fact they're near the ocean would spell a win for Gaara but nothing stops Crocodile from simply kiting Gaara up into the air and away from the water.

I give this one to Crocodile easily 8/10.

[Erts]

I'm an avid reader of both, and there is a problem with this discussion.
The problem is if Gaara can control Croc or not. The thing is, we don't know.
In sheer power, Crocodile is more powerful. Yes, he is. He destroyed so much in the Alabasta arc, much more then Gaara did in recent comics. He also is no weakling in hand to hand, going toe to toe with Luffy. He is also ridiculously fast (watch the Marineford arc.)

But it comes down to the essential question: can Gaara control Crocs sand? Even if he can, can Croc just change back or still use sand attacks?

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm an avid reader of both, and there is a problem with this discussion.
The problem is if Gaara can control Croc or not. The thing is, we don't know.
In sheer power, Crocodile is more powerful. Yes, he is. He destroyed so much in the Alabasta arc, much more then Gaara did in recent comics. He also is no weakling in hand to hand, going toe to toe with Luffy. He is also ridiculously fast (watch the Marineford arc.)

But it comes down to the essential question: can Gaara control Crocs sand? Even if he can, can Croc just change back or still use sand attacks?

This goes both ways though. If Gaara can control sentient sand with chakra then Crocodile should be able to control Gaara's sand. And even assuming Gaara can control and Crocodile can't, what can Gaara do? He can't force Crocodile to re-solidify since that'd be mind control, not sand control.

[Erts]

This goes both ways though. If Gaara can control sentient sand with chakra then Crocodile should be able to control Gaara's sand. And even assuming Gaara can control and Crocodile can't, what can Gaara do? He can't force Crocodile to re-solidify since that'd be mind control, not sand control.

Of course he can't, that's not what I was saying. I meant by "can croc just change back" as in, even if Gaara can control his sand, can't Croc just revert back to physical form?" Bad wording, I'm sorry.

And the reason for the first point is that I don't think that Croc's has been displayed as controling sand that he wasn't a part of, I don't think the Logia fruit eaters can do that, they just can generate and control massive amounts of their element, from what they already generated.

But Croc can't lift his hand and a sand wave just rises and envelops someone, he needs to put his hand in it and have that sand be connected with the sand doing the enveloping. Gah, I hope that came out right.)

[Tanuki Tales]

Of course he can't, that's not what I was saying. I meant by "can croc just change back" as in, even if Gaara can control his sand, can't Croc just revert back to physical form?" Bad wording, I'm sorry.

And the reason for the first point is that I don't think that Croc's has been displayed as controling sand that he wasn't a part of, I don't think the Logia fruit eaters can do that, they just can generate and control massive amounts of their element, from what they already generated.

But Croc can't lift his hand and a sand wave just rises and envelops someone, he needs to put his hand in it and have that sand be connected with the sand doing the enveloping. Gah, I hope that came out right.)

As far as I can find they can't control existing elements just at the drop of a hat. But they can create limitless amounts of their element and directly control that however they wish.

[Traab]

Is there a time limit on how long he can stay sand? If so, im seeing garra enveloping parts of croc when he goes sand mode and separating them as far as he can and holding them there. As for garra getting tired, im not so sure. As far as I can tell, his sand shield and armor are automatic. He has been able to use it while under attack since he was 6 years old. You dont have a lot of chakra at that point, demon vessel or not. I think garra would likely try a few plans, and if none of them worked, let cros try to hurt him. As I said, stalemate.

[John Cribati]

So... in short, neither one can out-h4x the other?

Interesting...

[DiscipleofBob]

Since Crocodile has a Logia-type fruit, it means he can't be hurt except for one of three ways:

1. An elemental weakness, in Crocodile's case, water.

2. Kairoseki, or Seastone, a material which nullifies Devil Fruit powers upon contact.

3. Haki, which despite its similiarities to Chakra, I'm going to go ahead and say Gaara doesn't have access to, because that would be assuming way too much about how the two worlds' physics interact.

Most likely the two would be fighting in the desert.

This fight really just depends on whether or not Gaara can control Crocodile's sand form (I'm guessing not since it's two sentient wills battling over the sand's movement) and whether or not Crocodile could just infiltrate Gaara's sand shield and win that way.

Well, the reason Deidara was able to do so was he took Gaara by surprise, so it's not too crazy to say Crocodile could pull that off once or twice.

In the end, Gaara will eventually run out of Chakra, demon form or not, but Gaara has no way outside of an external phenomenon such as the weather or an ally backing him up to hurt Crocodile.

Got to go with Crocodile on this one.

[Tanuki Tales]

Is there a time limit on how long he can stay sand? If so, im seeing garra enveloping parts of croc when he goes sand mode and separating them as far as he can and holding them there. As for garra getting tired, im not so sure. As far as I can tell, his sand shield and armor are automatic. He has been able to use it while under attack since he was 6 years old. You dont have a lot of chakra at that point, demon vessel or not. I think garra would likely try a few plans, and if none of them worked, let cros try to hurt him. As I said, stalemate.

His automatic sand was powered by Shukaku though. I can't remember him using it as extensively since losing the beast, but even young Gaara would still lose this fight.

Crocodile can limitlessly allow attacks to phase through him and then reform and unlike Gaara he doesn't have a limited energy source to work with when it comes to controlling sand like Gaara does.

And it's not stalemate, just a potentially very long fight. If Gaara runs out of Chakra or gets hit by even a Desert Spada without countering with his sand that took a village buster than he's going to be splattered all over the beach.

[Kato]

You know, I think you're giving a little low credit to Gaara. Yes, he's at an disadvantage because his chakre might lst shorter than Crocodile's stamina. (Might, that is. So far we never saw him run out)
But he doesn't have a crippling weakness. If Gaara can figure it out I'm sure even in a desert he can get some water from somewhere and then use md instead of sand to attack. If need be, be could even use his own blood now, I guess. It really depends on whether he'll figure it out without any help.

Also, I'm starting with the idea neither can control the other's sand. Should be fairer this way. And more reasonable.

[Bouregard]

Also I like to point out that Sir Crocodile is one of the smartest, sanest and most cold blooded beings in the One Piece Universe... that guy managed to conceal an entire hidden army, a hidden coup to take over a large country and knew some of the most secret things in the One Piece world... all while pretending to work for the government as a highly ranking warlord. No, don't underestimate him. He's extremly tough and if you don't know his weakness...well you're dead.

He killed the hero of One Piece nearly two times without much effort, and poor Luffy survived both via deus ex machina and the third barely. He basically lost because his not-trusted second in command cheated him. That's the only reason.

I don't know Gara or Naruto but here is a little rundown of his more dangerous things.


He can turn to sand/dust without him realising he's under attack. No speed helps here. He's dust in human form. Being hit by water/ or a fluid (blood and sweat work...) negates this ability till he dries...
This ability is also usable to travel short distances.

He can create and control sandstorms. They can't hurt him.

His hook is filled with a very potent poison, while not particulary fast killing, it will kill you without an antidote and in it's purest form can disolve rocks

His one good hand can turn anything it touches to sand or dust via draining all the fluids. He can also drain the water from an entire area... everyone who stands there will shrivel and die, stone will turn to dust. This ability has no limit, he can drain an entire ocean given enough time.


Desert sabre (?): A attack he can only perfom in sandy areas and yes he can turn pretty much anything into a sandy area with his hand. It's basically a swordlike sanddune thats sharp enough to cut through stone and he can control it.

He claims to have mastered his powers and from what we've seen so far that is a believable claim.

He's superhumanly tough, dexterous and strong even without his powers as seen at the end of the boss fight where he can fight Luffy to a standstill even without being able to turn to dust.

He has access to huge ressources as a former pirate and powerful warlord.
His new second is extremly loyal to him and an expert swordman (literaly),

[Tanuki Tales]

You know, I think you're giving a little low credit to Gaara. Yes, he's at an disadvantage because his chakre might lst shorter than Crocodile's stamina. (Might, that is. So far we never saw him run out)
But he doesn't have a crippling weakness. If Gaara can figure it out I'm sure even in a desert he can get some water from somewhere and then use md instead of sand to attack. If need be, be could even use his own blood now, I guess. It really depends on whether he'll figure it out without any help.

Also, I'm starting with the idea neither can control the other's sand. Should be fairer this way. And more reasonable.

The fight is on a beach though.

And Gaara just has no real conceivable way to hurt Crocodile. Even if he somehow mystically divined the weaknesses of a Logia class Devil Fruit, Crocodile has another fun, devastating ability.

Anything his right hand (including sand formed from it) touches is totally drained of its moisture. Human beings are mummified while everything else except metal is withered and/or broken down into being just sand.

[Kato]

The fight is on a beach though.

And Gaara just has no real conceivable way to hurt Crocodile. Even if he somehow mystically divined the weaknesses of a Logia class Devil Fruit, Crocodile has another fun, devastating ability.

Anything his right hand (including sand formed from it) touches is totally drained of its moisture. Human beings are mummified while everything else except metal is withered and/or broken down into being just sand.

Hu, I thought the general tone changed to desert instead of beach because it would be more fitting for both of them?

Anyway, that one ability of Crocodile's is just crap. If this power was as abusive as you state it to be, he'd no need to be afraid of anything. I don't know if it only works on moisture but not pure liquid or if it#s just slow but anyway, if they are on a beach or there's an oasis nearby or whatever then Gaara would have the means of getting enough water o severely hurt Crocodile, considering he was scared of a small vial of water Nico dried to... backstab him with, I guess. He can't just neutralize any water or he'd not decided to rule a desert and he wouldn't be beaten by Luffy because his fists were a bit bloody. Maybe it's continuity but you can't say 'because of his left hand you can#t use water against him'.

I'm not saying it's a curb stomp battle, I'm just saying opposed to most people Gaara has a chance, mostly if he can figure out his weakness.


Though, if we start by zero, both will probably assume the other has identical powers to his own which means... well, I don't know what Crocodile would do against another Logia Sand user, but Gaara'd probably just try to mash him to bits and fail. But really, I can't see how things would proceed from there. If Crocodile tries to get in melee Gaara has his sand defense which Crocodile will have a hard time to overcome and unless Gaara thinks of something else than rushing him... Well, maybe he'd sand prison him with dense enough sand for Crocodile not to get out. That might be a way to take him out. I don't know.

[Tanuki Tales]

Hu, I thought the general tone changed to desert instead of beach because it would be more fitting for both of them?

Anyway, that one ability of Crocodile's is just crap. If this power was as abusive as you state it to be, he'd no need to be afraid of anything. I don't know if it only works on moisture but not pure liquid or if it#s just slow but anyway, if they are on a beach or there's an oasis nearby or whatever then Gaara would have the means of getting enough water o severely hurt Crocodile, considering he was scared of a small vial of water Nico dried to... backstab him with, I guess. He can't just neutralize any water or he'd not decided to rule a desert and he wouldn't be beaten by Luffy because his fists were a bit bloody. Maybe it's continuity but you can't say 'because of his left hand you can#t use water against him'.

It works on literally anything. He's eroded doors, trees, people, even entire buildings with his right hand. It's not slow and I'm sorry if you feel the ability is crap but it is something that's part of Crocodile's powerset and it one of his more devastating abilities next to his Desert Spada and Desert Sables. And Crocodile pretty much isn't scared of anything between his own arrogance and the fact that he's honed his Devil Fruit powers to a degree that hasn't been seen by any other Logia fruit user and few others. The misconception you're having with the scene where Robin betrayed Crocodile is that she ever had a chance. Even assuming she had managed to stab him he's tanked worse damage and could absorb the water in seconds.

As for the fight with Luffy; you do realize that Crocodile had pretty much curbstomped him in all their previous fights right? Their final fight Crocodile was in the middle of a breakdown and his sheer anger over how his plans were falling apart made his judgement and concentration lapse to the point Crocodile didn't even notice how Luffy was hurting him until the middle of the fight. A cool, calm and collected Crocodile is a very deadly foe and you should see that he's far more than what Alabasta showcased after the Marineford arc.


I'm not saying it's a curb stomp battle, I'm just saying opposed to most people Gaara has a chance, mostly if he can figure out his weakness.

Except it is generally a curbstomp battle. Unless Gaara can whip out a village busting blocking shield constantly then Crocodile could easily kill him in a variety of ways.



Though, if we start by zero, both will probably assume the other has identical powers to his own which means... well, I don't know what Crocodile would do against another Logia Sand user, but Gaara'd probably just try to mash him to bits and fail. But really, I can't see how things would proceed from there. If Crocodile tries to get in melee Gaara has his sand defense which Crocodile will have a hard time to overcome and unless Gaara thinks of something else than rushing him... Well, maybe he'd sand prison him with dense enough sand for Crocodile not to get out. That might be a way to take him out. I don't know.

Well, the problem with that mindset is that Crocodile would already know that Gaara isn't a Logia user. Crocodile is incredibly knowledgeable on Devil Fruits and would obviously know that only one Devil Fruit can exist at a time. Gaara's regular defenses can't tank Crocodile's higher end assaults and if he fights him under the assumption that his foe is a sand user who's using clones and substitutions then he's going to make fatal mistakes pretty fast.

[Kato]

Wow, you're not giving any credit at all to Gaara, are you?

I'm not saying Crocodile isn't a strong opponent. But if he was as immortal as you make him out to be, how did he ever lose? Really because he couldn't keep his cool? Seems like a lame excuse. When he realized he was losing due to your estimate of his powers he should have still been able to devastate Luffy as he did the previous times. Given, as much as I like Oda, he's not entirely consistent in his characters powers but still.

If Crocodile was that immune to water again, why did he live in the desert? Okay, he did fill his hideout with giant tanks of water because... well, I guess because he was an arrogant prick. Well, maybe it really was merely because he had a good plan on how to control Alabasta but again, if he was that all powerful why woul he mind for example Luffy using his... water ballon technique whatever. It's been a while but I'm sure he felt it necessary to avoid that.

So, if we are on a beach, to make it easy, Gaara could merely take a whole bunch of water, lift it up in a giant mud ball and make it rain. Unless Croc finds a place to hide fast that's it for most of his abilities.

Garra's defenses are well able to withstand a snd storm, I think, even one that can pull down some shabby houses. If anything, his absolute defense could only be penetrated by ether lightning attacks or by Deidara being sneaky. (Though, some clay puppets eating away the absolute defense goes against most of the continuity)


Well then, what would Crocodile think if he encounters who can control sand at will? Wouldn't his first assumption be either there was a second logia sand fruit or a fruit with similar powers? How would he jump to the conclusion that his enemy was a ninja (and of what use would it be to him?) Given, Gaara might allow himself a moment of weakness after trying Sand prison and between thinking he crushed him and nothings left and noticing the lack of blood but at this point I don't think Crocodile would already find an opening for a deadly attack.


Again, I don't think Gaara is entirely superior, I just want to give him some credit, as there is a reason Crocodile is not the ruler of the One Piece world. His abilities have limits as well.

[Marillion]

Don't forget that Gaara is superhumanly tough as well. The concussive force and velocities involved when he was getting smacked around by Rock Lee's Lotus technique would have essentially liquified any human, even inside his sand armor. And yet, he won. Barely, but he won. I'm not saying he's as tough as Crocodile, but he can take a hit, and shouldn't be discounted so easily.

[Traab]

Also, the dry out attack of his is useless because garra is entirely covered in bone dry sand already. He has a skin tight layer of it over him, and the ability to substitute himself out of there should croc get lucky and break through. The only way it would help him any would be if garra had already lost and was lying there on the ground defenseless.

Also, its been mentioned that he would need to be able to block repeated village buster type attacks like he did against deidara. I ask why? He only has to protect himself, not an entire frigging village. WAY less sand and chakra required to block an attack on a single person. If this does take place on a beach, I wouldnt be surprised if garra did try out the water on him, just because he can see that sand isnt cutting it. His train of thought? "I cant crush him with my sand, because he IS sand. What if I tried soaking him down? Its worth a shot."

[Tanuki Tales]

Wow, you're not giving any credit at all to Gaara, are you?

Oh, no, I am. He's a really tough opponent for a lot of different possible match ups. He's pretty tough and has good mid to long range capabilities and would curbstomp a good chunk of opponents you could throw at him. He's just in a match where he has no chance to win. It's like if you put Son Goku from DBZ up against someone like Galactus. Those debating for Galactus aren't giving no credit to Goku, it's just he's sorely outclassed.


I'm not saying Crocodile isn't a strong opponent. But if he was as immortal as you make him out to be, how did he ever lose? Really because he couldn't keep his cool? Seems like a lame excuse. When he realized he was losing due to your estimate of his powers he should have still been able to devastate Luffy as he did the previous times. Given, as much as I like Oda, he's not entirely consistent in his characters powers but still.

Yes, because it's not like human emotions ever influence one's competency at doing anything. Perish the thought that our efficiency rises and dips with the state of mind we're currently in. :smallamused:

That's what I was pointing out; that Crocodile's state of mind at the time factored heavily into his loss with Luffy. You can see this in the Marineford arc where he took on Hawkeye Mihawk, Donquixote Doflamingo and Admiral Akainu, three opponents who Luffy stood no chance against, and came out of those three fights unscathed. Please keep in mind that Mihawk is capable of decimating entire Galleons and tidal waves with a single sword slash, that Doflamingo amputated Oars Jr leg with a flick of a wrist and Akainu is a living volcano.


If Crocodile was that immune to water again, why did he live in the desert? Okay, he did fill his hideout with giant tanks of water because... well, I guess because he was an arrogant prick. Well, maybe it really was merely because he had a good plan on how to control Alabasta but again, if he was that all powerful why woul he mind for example Luffy using his... water ballon technique whatever. It's been a while but I'm sure he felt it necessary to avoid that.

Because of his arrogance? If you're a person who turns into sand, can create and minorly control devastating sandstorms and can destroy the most precious resource in the area by just coming in contact with it, why wouldn't you make that your base? You'd be a veritable god living in such an environment.

Of course, the fact that Pluton's plans were supposedly there also factored in greatly.


So, if we are on a beach, to make it easy, Gaara could merely take a whole bunch of water, lift it up in a giant mud ball and make it rain. Unless Croc finds a place to hide fast that's it for most of his abilities.

And Gaara has done this before when? Mud, first off, =/= Water. Is it wet? Yes, yes it is wet, but that only means you have the possibility of hitting Crocodile, nothing more. What evidence is there that Gaara can control wet sand as effectively, if at all, as dry sand with his chakra? And is Crocodile just going to stand there and let this all happen or is he going to just take the hit? Nothing stops him from dodging it or slicing it in half or just out maneuvering it by flight.


Garra's defenses are well able to withstand a snd storm, I think, even one that can pull down some shabby houses. If anything, his absolute defense could only be penetrated by ether lightning attacks or by Deidara being sneaky. (Though, some clay puppets eating away the absolute defense goes against most of the continuity)

Gaara's defenses were also taken apart by opponents with sufficient superhuman strength, superhuman speed or superior offensive firepower. Gaara is only going to withstand a direct Desert Spada, Desert Grande Spada or Desert Sables or even possibly Desert Sables: Pesado if he can effectively and constantly create barriers that tank village busting attacks. Keep in mind that the Spadas are capable of cutting deep gorges in the ground and cut Akainu in half while the Sables are capable of cracking steel.

If he relies on his normal defenses or that silly Shukaku shield he used against Kimimaro, he could easily end up dead.



Well then, what would Crocodile think if he encounters who can control sand at will? Wouldn't his first assumption be either there was a second logia sand fruit or a fruit with similar powers? How would he jump to the conclusion that his enemy was a ninja (and of what use would it be to him?) Given, Gaara might allow himself a moment of weakness after trying Sand prison and between thinking he crushed him and nothings left and noticing the lack of blood but at this point I don't think Crocodile would already find an opening for a deadly attack.

He could tell it was sand first off because part of his powerset is the ability to utilize sand to have a form of tremorsense. That's how he detected the underground rivers in Alabasta. So he wouldn't assume his opponent was using any ability other than sand manipulation. And he would then know that his opponent doesn't have the abilities of a Logia fruit, which means they're solid flesh and blood.

I never said he would know his opponent was a ninja.

It depends on how good a defense Gaara could put up. Any of Crocodile's attacks taken at so direct a range would mess Gaara just as easily up as Rock Lee did way back when. If he hits with a Desert Spada or Grande Spada, Gaara would be dead with his normal defenses seeing as they've never been shown to tank that level of damage. Sables at so close a range and weak a level I could see Gaara tanking but not unscathed. Barchan is up in the air though. We know that Ground Seco and Ground Death pull moisture from the surrounding area and that the latter is potent enough to reduce anything short of metal to sand. I don't see why there's any reason that this wouldn't go through sand seeing as Crocodile uses the weakest level of this to dry himself out, so if Gaara got hit by this attack it wouldn't kill him but it would leave him severely dehydrated and weakened.



Again, I don't think Gaara is entirely superior, I just want to give him some credit, as there is a reason Crocodile is not the ruler of the One Piece world. His abilities have limits as well.

Crocodile also lives in a world where a good chunk of the main cast have shown themselves to be more powerful than a lot of the Naruto cast. Whitebeard alone could cause tectonic earthquakes and tidal waves with his bare hands. The general power level of One Piece is just above Naruto and even as powerful as Crocodile is he's still a small fish in a wide ocean.

And as I said, yes, Gaara is a strong opponent in most cases. This is just a poor match up for him.



@Marillon: Yes, he can take a hit. But as stated above, he hasn't shown himself to be able to tank the damage output Crocodile is capable of with his standard defenses. He needs to pull out village buster blocks constantly to survive Crocodile's assaults.

@Traab: I covered this higher up in this post.

[Traab]

For the record, garra was able to take 5 gates lees hits. That were moving so fast and hitting so hard his footsteps were leaving craters in the stone floor, all without getting more than a bloody lip. Yeah there was wiplash damage involved, but he can and has taken some pretty heavy duty hits. And that was back when he was a genin. That was also with him being unable to use the sand shield, just his sand armor since lee was moving too fast to keep up. It took a specialty attack specifically designed to pierce through anything and kill its target, just to land a minor wound on garra. Crocs attacks are sand going against sand. He has no real advantage with his bunker busting abilities.

[Tanuki Tales]

For the record, garra was able to take 5 gates lees hits. That were moving so fast and hitting so hard his footsteps were leaving craters in the stone floor, all without getting more than a bloody lip. Yeah there was wiplash damage involved, but he can and has taken some pretty heavy duty hits. And that was back when he was a genin. That was also with him being unable to use the sand shield, just his sand armor since lee was moving too fast to keep up. It took a specialty attack specifically designed to pierce through anything and kill its target, just to land a minor wound on garra. Crocs attacks are sand going against sand. He has no real advantage with his bunker busting abilities.

And Lee is so impressive because? Anything Lee or Gai have shown so far is nothing comparable to the stuff that Gear 2 Luffy has done.

And Lee's techniques were nowhere near specifically designed to pierce through anything and kill its target. He had devised the entire fighting style at the time to be able to overcome Neji's fighting style and beat him in an honest fight so that Lee could prove that he was better than Neji through just sheer hard work. The fact it was so effective against Gaara was sheer luck that Gaara had relied so long on his automatic defenses to be able to tank anything that came at him. And his defenses still practically failed.

And so what if its sand against sand? That doesn't nullify any of the damage that Crocodile has done in any of his fights or is capable of doing and the first time we saw him using Desert Spada was against Luffy in the desert.

I'm not saying Gaara is a wimp, but his standard defenses and standard durability just can't stand up to the kind of damage output Crocodile can casually inflict.

[GloatingSwine]

If Crocodile was that immune to water again, why did he live in the desert?

Being coated with moisture allowed Luffy to hit him because the punch could connect and do damage in the time between Crocodile absorbing the water and assuming his sand form, but Luffy had to keep renewing the moisture on his body to do this.

Water on its own isn't a significant weakness, except seawater which is an effect of the Devil Fruit not Crocodile's individual power, you also need to be very strong physically in order to inflict telling damage. He tanks several hits from Luffy, who is incredibly physically strong as well as being made of rubber (he could drag and lift with effort a solid ball of gold with a diameter equal to his own height, which would have weighed something close to 30 tonnes).

Crocodile's base was in Alabaster because it was highly suited to his plan, it was highly susceptible to weather alteration causing political instability because it was already a desert, it was one of the more significant kingdoms within the World Government, and it had a Poneglyph which promised an even more powerful weapon.

[Coidzor]

Heres a battle plan. One of Garras abilities is to make more sand by grinding up the earth around him. Once he realizes that he cant hurt croc, and cant control him when he is sand, he forces him to go sand mode, then uses HIS sand to grind the croc sand into even finer particles. Its worth a shot at least.

So... Gaara can destroy matter? If so, well, "game over, man, game over." Otherwise that's the most pointless thing I've ever heard of in a versus match.

[Traab]

And Lee is so impressive because? Anything Lee or Gai have shown so far is nothing comparable to the stuff that Gear 2 Luffy has done.

And Lee's techniques were nowhere near specifically designed to pierce through anything and kill its target. He had devised the entire fighting style at the time to be able to overcome Neji's fighting style and beat him in an honest fight so that Lee could prove that he was better than Neji through just sheer hard work. The fact it was so effective against Gaara was sheer luck that Gaara had relied so long on his automatic defenses to be able to tank anything that came at him. And his defenses still practically failed.

And so what if its sand against sand? That doesn't nullify any of the damage that Crocodile has done in any of his fights or is capable of doing and the first time we saw him using Desert Spada was against Luffy in the desert.

I'm not saying Gaara is a wimp, but his standard defenses and standard durability just can't stand up to the kind of damage output Crocodile can casually inflict.

Lee is a super strong speed freak able to punch holes in just about anything. And when he went all super sayin on garra in the prelims he was so powerful his footsteps were shattering stone. Not his attacks, his FOOTSTEPS. The designed to pierce thing was in reference to the chidori. Yeah it broke through, but it only left a minor wound on garra. If he hadnt spent his whole life unable to be injured, he probably would have just shattered sasukes arm before he could pull it back out.

As for sand versus sand, my point is that the element of the attack leaves croc with no advantage. Its like firing a water gun into a bucket of water. They just cancel each other out. Garra has shown he is capable of basically burying entire armies and crushing them all at the same time with his ultimate attacks. I point that out to show that there likely isnt THAT huge of a disparity in power between them so it isnt as if crocs sand attacks will just overpower garras sand defense and crush him.


So... Gaara can destroy matter? If so, well, "game over, man, game over." Otherwise that's the most pointless thing I've ever heard of in a versus match.

Heh, no he cant destroy matter. My thought was that perhaps there is a limit as to how fine of a particle of sand croc can be reduced to. There are all different levels of "sand" after all. Think of it as eroding his body.

[Prime32]

Here's a thought.

Gaara can use his sand to create more sand by finding and compressing various minerals in the earth. Could he create Seastone sand and trick Crocodile into absorbing it?

[GloatingSwine]

Here's a thought.

Gaara can use his sand to create more sand by finding and compressing various minerals in the earth. Could he create Seastone sand and trick Crocodile into absorbing it?

Probably not, since Seastone doesn't occur in his universe and therefore he has no idea what it is or what it's properties are.

[Coidzor]

Here's a thought.

Gaara can use his sand to create more sand by finding and compressing various minerals in the earth. Could he create Seastone sand and trick Crocodile into absorbing it?

If he has Seastone in the first place, in which case, well, yeah, he's gonna win.

As far as creating seastone out of raw materials that are not seastone, I'm not seeing it, it seems to be created under special circumstances rather than a mundane mineral.

[Tanuki Tales]

Lee is a super strong speed freak able to punch holes in just about anything. And when he went all super sayin on garra in the prelims he was so powerful his footsteps were shattering stone. Not his attacks, his FOOTSTEPS. The designed to pierce thing was in reference to the chidori. Yeah it broke through, but it only left a minor wound on garra. If he hadnt spent his whole life unable to be injured, he probably would have just shattered sasukes arm before he could pull it back out.

I reiterate...and? Bellamy was capable of that, Luffy is capable of that, any one in CP9 could do that...Hell, Coby should be capable of that at this point. It's nice and pretty and everything but not anything to write home about.

Oh, you were talking about Chidori, not Lee's assaults. Still, Chidori has nowhere near the cutting power of any of Crocodile's Spada techniques.


As for sand versus sand, my point is that the element of the attack leaves croc with no advantage. Its like firing a water gun into a bucket of water. They just cancel each other out. Garra has shown he is capable of basically burying entire armies and crushing them all at the same time with his ultimate attacks. I point that out to show that there likely isnt THAT huge of a disparity in power between them so it isnt as if crocs sand attacks will just overpower garras sand defense and crush him.

Same doesn't mean equal. The fact Gaara uses sand too doesn't lessen the power of any of Crocodile's assaults nor is there any evidence that his moisture draining abilities wouldn't penetrate any of Gaara's armors.

And? Said ultimate attack would have no effect on Crocodile, especially since he can fly. I don't see why you brought that up.

And as I said, I'm not giving Gaara a raw deal here. He is in fact pretty powerful and could win a lot of Versus fights you put him in. This is just a sorely poor match for Gaara. In fact, I doubt Gaara could win against any Shichibukai or Admiral level opponent who was Logia class user.

And that's pretty much what would happen if Gaara relied on his standard sand based defenses. His normal Suna no Tate and Suna no Yoroi wouldn't tank what Crocodile would throw.

[Mina Kobold]

I think we're forgetting two very important points here:

1) This is an Internet debate about a sand ninja vs. a sand pirate, it may go on for millennia without resolution! :smalleek::smalltongue:

2) It would look awesome regardless of who wins.

I am on the Crocodile side, though. Just knocking him out required punching him through several metres (According to king Cobra) of solid rock after a very long fistfight with the person who did that and levelled humongous buildings in the past.

Gaara was knocked out by a, sizable but comparatively tiny, explosion.

The scale of the two series is simply too different for Gaara to stand a chance, even Usopp could survive being hit by a 4 ton bat and keep standing.

[Xondoure]

Yeah Croc wins. Gaara is strong but he has nowhere near the durability and raw power Crocodile has, and no way of discovering Crocodiles weakness.

[Tanuki Tales]

2) It would look awesome regardless of who wins.

Oh, most certainly. And they'd also make a devastating tag team.


I am on the Crocodile side, though. Just knocking him out required punching him through several metres (According to king Cobra) of solid rock after a very long fistfight with the person who did that and levelled humongous buildings in the past.

And knocked out creatures the size of blue whales.




The scale of the two series is simply too different for Gaara to stand a chance, even Usopp could survive being hit by a 4 ton bat and keep standing.

Repeatedly in fact. :smalltongue:

[Venom3053000]

ok so i just tried to post and the fourm went down for a bit :smallfurious:

os short form of what i post

does blood in the sand work ?

if does can gaara follow up fast enought to kill crocodile?

no?

then gaara dies.

[Tanuki Tales]

ok so i just tried to post and the fourm went down for a bit :smallfurious:

os short form of what i post

does blood in the sand work ?

if does can gaara follow up fast enought to kill crocodile?

no?

then gaara dies.

Huh?

What blood in the sand?

[Mina Kobold]

Huh?

What blood in the sand?

Gaara originally absorbed the blood of his dead opponents in his sand, claiming it strengthens it.

Doesn't do it anymore, though. Since, you know, not a psychopath these days.

But I am pretty sure it doesn't remain wet when he does that, at least in my interpretation.

[Venom3053000]

ok so im sory my long reply that didnt go though i was saying was that groud woud have a lot of blood in it because he takes it out of the groud crush people and then just put it back in the groud so their would be a lot of dried blood in the groud i think not sure which took some time to write out and then didn't go though so thats why the short from is a little confusing

[Traab]

GOURD! For gods sake GOURD!

[Mina Kobold]

ok so im sory my long reply that didnt go though i was saying was that groud woud have a lot of blood in it because he takes it out of the groud crush people and then just put it back in the groud so their would be a lot of dried blood in the groud i think not sure which took some time to write out and then didn't go though so thats why the short from is a little confusing

Only wet stuff work so having dried blood in the ground probably wouldn't matter. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Hmm, I wonder if garra could pull off the lufi fight style with his own twist. Dampen his sand enough to make it hurt croc without turning it into near useless mud. Then start spiking the hell out of him. No sand coffin, though it might work if he gets it wet enough. Wet sand spears.

How would he know to pull this off? Observation. He may try to attack him with water just because its there and see the odd way it effects croc. He may see croc constantly maneuvering away from the water side of the beach and get suspicious. Either way, when he sees that water apparently effects him, its a short hop from that to wet sand spears, wet sand coffins, wet sand burials.

[Bouregard]

Hmm, I wonder if garra could pull off the lufi fight style with his own twist. Dampen his sand enough to make it hurt croc without turning it into near useless mud. Then start spiking the hell out of him. No sand coffin, though it might work if he gets it wet enough. Wet sand spears.

How would he know to pull this off? Observation. He may try to attack him with water just because its there and see the odd way it effects croc. He may see croc constantly maneuvering away from the water side of the beach and get suspicious. Either way, when he sees that water apparently effects him, its a short hop from that to wet sand spears, wet sand coffins, wet sand burials.

The problem is actually to survive that long against Croc. If you don't insult him he will simply kill you.
Also I wonder how Gara would react to his quicksand... Yes Croc can turn himself into quicksand and the ground too.
A question about Gara... does it hinder his abilities if he's wet?

[Venom3053000]

i looked at the naruto wiki and it said he uses dry sand infused with charka so probably

[BlackDragonKing]

Why a beach? Gaara doesn't live anywhere near a beach, and neither does Crocodile...

Still, the situation would be needed for a fighting chance. Gaara would need to get Crocodile wet in order to stand even a bit of a chance in the confrontation, unfortunately, otherwise he's basically limited to throwing more sand at Crocodile, which is like trying to kill a water monster with a super-soaker.

Crocodile's techniques for the most part get blocked by absolute defense, but unfortunately, as a sandman, he can just become sand and manifest his hand in Gaara's face through any level of sand shielding and dehydrate him to death.

So the question is, could Gaara get Crocodile wet and kill him before getting dehydrated to death? I really don't think so, sadly. I'd call this as one for Crocodile.

[Mina Kobold]

Hmm, I wonder if garra could pull off the lufi fight style with his own twist. Dampen his sand enough to make it hurt croc without turning it into near useless mud. Then start spiking the hell out of him. No sand coffin, though it might work if he gets it wet enough. Wet sand spears.

How would he know to pull this off? Observation. He may try to attack him with water just because its there and see the odd way it effects croc. He may see croc constantly maneuvering away from the water side of the beach and get suspicious. Either way, when he sees that water apparently effects him, its a short hop from that to wet sand spears, wet sand coffins, wet sand burials.

Problem is that Gaara rarely uses strategy in favour of raw power.

Deidara pretty much defeated him by counting on him just using raw power, didn't he?

Crocodile is a chess-master, on the other hand, so I presume that even if Gaara began suspecting something he would already be in pretty deep.

But he is quite high-ranking so who knows? :smallsmile:

[Tanuki Tales]

Why a beach? Gaara doesn't live anywhere near a beach, and neither does Crocodile...

Probably for the sole reason of giving Gaara some kind of potential way of negating Crocodile's Logia defenses. Not like he actually has a way to make use of being near the ocean.



Crocodile's techniques for the most part get blocked by absolute defense, but unfortunately, as a sandman, he can just become sand and manifest his hand in Gaara's face through any level of sand shielding and dehydrate him to death.

If you're talking about Gaara's Suna no Tate, he's not going to tank any of Crocodile's real hits. He'd have to use defensive techniques more towards Kūsa Bōheki in defensive strength to tank the blow Crocodile is capable of.


So the question is, could Gaara get Crocodile wet and kill him before getting dehydrated to death? I really don't think so, sadly. I'd call this as one for Crocodile.

Yeah, Gaara has no real way of getting Crocodile wet, of hurting him or of tanking his blows.

Edit:

@Traab: Except Gaara has never been shown to manipulate Wet sand.

[Prime32]

@Traab: Except Gaara has never been shown to manipulate Wet sand.Gaara has been shown to condense sand to a diamond-like solid, so he could just make a bowl.

[Frozen_Feet]

Why a beach? Gaara doesn't live anywhere near a beach, and neither does Crocodile...

OMG, I can't believe this has went so far unsaid...

Crocodile is a pirate! He lives at the sea! If he were to invade Wind Country, of course he'd had to start from a coast somewhere. If Gaara would have any idea he's coming, intercepting him before he gets to Sunakagure would be perfectly reasonably.

So, beach is perfectly valid stage for this match.

Further more, Gaara has very extensive ability to alter the landscape. He turned a significant portion of a lush forest into sandy desert, and during his time as a Kage raised enough sand to deflect what's effectively a tactical nuke from an area comparable to a small city.

If I'm not wholly mistaken, even on a desert, there's water under the sand. (Oases form where these water sources break through, and nomads use them to fill their supplies when trespassing.) So, Gaara would reasonably have access to water. If they're near Suna, he could obviously utilize water pipes in the village, since there have to be some to keep all the people alive.

So the whole "Gaara has no access to moisture and thus loses" doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

In my opinion, the two are pretty evenly matched. Crocodile has edge in endurance, but Gaara has edge in versatility. We really shouldn't discount all the other tricks he could do with Chakra besides sand control. Even the basic trinity of Henge-Bunshin-Kawarimi give him tactical options Crocodile plain doesn't have.

In the end, it could go either way. I cam't think of a way to do a simulation, so just flip a coin. Heads, Crocodile wins, tails, Gaara wins. There. :smallcool:

[BlackDragonKing]

OMG, I can't believe this has went so far unsaid...

Crocodile is a pirate! He lives at the sea! If he were to invade Wind Country, of course he'd had to start from a coast somewhere. If Gaara would have any idea he's coming, intercepting him before he gets to Sunakagure would be perfectly reasonably.

So, beach is perfectly valid stage for this match.

Further more, Gaara has very extensive ability to alter the landscape. He turned a significant portion of a lush forest into sandy desert, and during his time as a Kage raised enough sand to deflect what's effectively a tactical nuke from an area comparable to a small city.

If I'm not wholly mistaken, even on a desert, there's water under the sand. (Oases form where these water sources break through, and nomads use them to fill their supplies when trespassing.) So, Gaara would reasonably have access to water. If they're near Suna, he could obviously utilize water pipes in the village, since there have to be some to keep all the people alive.

So the whole "Gaara has no access to moisture and thus loses" doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

In my opinion, the two are pretty evenly matched. Crocodile has edge in endurance, but Gaara has edge in versatility. We really shouldn't discount all the other tricks he could do with Chakra besides sand control. Even the basic trinity of Henge-Bunshin-Kawarimi give him tactical options Crocodile plain doesn't have.

In the end, it could go either way. I cam't think of a way to do a simulation, so just flip a coin. Heads, Crocodile wins, tails, Gaara wins. There. :smallcool:

When he was introduced, Crocodile was a pirate who preferred his dealings in the middle of a desert. Croc's never brought himself close to the sea if he can possibly avoid it, since his devil fruit has literally zero drawbacks in extremely dry, arid, sandy areas. Maybe Croc would've gotten somewhere by beach, but he's sure as hell not letting a fight stay there. Also, I believe Suna is a landlocked nation; any port would be miles away from Gaara's turf, and far behind Crocodile by the time Gaara came into play.

There's also the problem of would Gaara consider using water when literally every one of his usual techniques won't affect Crocodile at all? Hell, given that he got his ass handed to him by somebody hiding bombs in his sand, what's to stop Croc from just infiltrating the sand and using his instant-death hand on Gaara while Gaara's reacting? Not to mention, Crocodile's immune to being buried under the enormous, landscape-altering techniques Gaara uses. Gaara's not immune to Crocodile throwing them back at him.

I just think it's foolish to assume sending someone who fights exclusively with sand to fight a man who manipulates sand and is in fact MADE of sand, getting stronger based on the amount of sand around him, will result in the man who fights exclusively with sand to cobble together a way to use water on Crocodile. He'd probably have better luck just using Desert Burial on somebody else and getting blood on Crocodile, but post-timeskip gaara wouldn't do that.

[Mikeavelli]

Alright, went ahead and reviewed the two fights (Youtube is a wonderful thing)


Both fighters depend almost wholly upon their sand powers. Luffy clearly dominated in the area of physical fighting ability once Crocodile's weakness was known to him. Every success in his fight was attributable to sand powers or a dirty trick, he showed no great speed or strength relative to the other one piece characters. In fact, he has something of a crippling over dependence on his Logia fruit powers, in my opinion.

He does, however, have extreme endurance, and no limitations on how much he can use his sand powers.

During the Impel down battles, what he did was not terribly impressive, only who he fought. This clearly establishes him as a top-tier fighter, but then again, Gaara is also established as a top-tier fighter.


Gaara is even more extreme in his crippling overspecialization, when his "perfect defense" is pierced, he doesn't have much, if any ability to fight hand to hand. He just stays there and takes it until he can turn the battle back into a long-distance powers fight. His endurance (not counting the Shukaku transformation) is far inferior to Crocodiles.

But his power over sand is in a whole different league compared to crocodile. Where the Croc uses sand-spears and small-scale terrain alteration, Gaara turns the entire battlefield into sand Tsunamis. He can't be caught by surprise because his sand is an automatic defense, and the sand armor protected him from a beating from Lee which is on par with the beating Luffy gave Crocodile.

[hr]

Overall, there's nothing that leads me to believe Crocodile could overcome Gaara's sand defenses. His main strength is his logia powers, and that is inferior to Gaara's sand powers.

Similarly, unless Gaara figures out Croc's weakness, he can't hurt Crocodile at all. If Gaara figures it out, there's nothing I've seen in the Anime that leads me to believe Gaara can't manipulate wet sand, so he could pretty easily do that, and win.

Since they're on a Beach, I've still got to give to this one to Gaara, it'd be too easy for Gaara to, even accidentally, figure out Crocs weakness. Once he has that, Croc doesn't have the speed or fighting skill to the massive amounts of water Gaara could throw around with some halfway decent creativity with his sand powers.

[Frozen_Feet]

Similarly, unless Gaara figures out Croc's weakness, he can't hurt Crocodile at all. If Gaara figures it out, there's nothing I've seen in the Anime that leads me to believe Gaara can't manipulate wet sand, so he could pretty easily do that, and win.

Just to chime in, it's pretty sure Gaara's abilities are Earth Element, and in the Ninjutsu element wheel, Earth beats Water. Considering he's controlled sand wet with blood with ease, no, I don't there's a reason to think wetness is a problem.

[Xondoure]

Well there is the small matter of Crocodile never taking Luffy seriously until it was too late, and Garaa's ultimate defense being pretty easily taken apart by another sand user...

[John Cribati]

Let's say, for the record, that neither one of them can control sand that the other already has control of. So if Gaara gets hold of a grain of sand, Crocodile can't use it until Gaara gives it up, and vice versa. How does that affect the battle?

[Frozen_Feet]

Let's say, for the record, that neither one of them can control sand that the other already has control of. So if Gaara gets hold of a grain of sand, Crocodile can't use it until Gaara gives it up, and vice versa. How does that affect the battle?

It means Crocodile has to punch through two layers of armor, one of which is called "absolute defense" for perfectly valid reasons, while still being near-invulnerable to Gaara if he can't find out his weakness.

In this case, Gaara could possibly trap Crocodile with, say, Desert Coffin - but only momentarily. When "lets go" of the sand, they're back at square one.

[Areswargod139]

Just to chime in, it's pretty sure Gaara's abilities are Earth Element, and in the Ninjutsu element wheel, Earth beats Water. Considering he's controlled sand wet with blood with ease, no, I don't there's a reason to think wetness is a problem.

I read somewhere that his Sand Waterfall style is considered a hiden (secret) jitsu actually. He's not creating sand from his body, he's putting his fiendish chakra into already pre-existing sand. Shukaku is able to use the wind element.

As for this thread, put me in favor of Gaara. It's actually a bad matchup: one guy specializes in manipulating sand and one guy is made of sand, as others have pointed out.

Marvel's Sandman versus Crocodile...no that would be a fight! Of copyright infringement proportions!

[Tanuki Tales]

I'll reiterate again and again:

Gaara's standard defenses can't tank what Crocodile brings to the board. And there's no evidence that any of his shields would block Crocodile's moisture draining abilities or that Gaara can control wet sand. Please refrain from giving Gaara abilities that he has never showcased in the series just to justify your hypothetical win scenarios.

Crocodile's normal Desert Spada was sufficiently sharp and powerful enough to cut a gorge into the ground that was at least seven feet deep. This is comparable to the necessary strength to penetrate Gaara's Suna no Tate and Suna no Yoroi.

Now I want to address something that came to my mind earlier. Assuming Gaara uses Sabaku Kyu or a similar technique on Crocodile, what prevents him from simply slipping through it? Gaara would have no reason to devise a technique that would exert such pressure as to prevent any sand to slip through and it's not like an opponent has never slipped attacks through his sand before.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Most likely the two would be fighting in the desert.


Yes, but the OP specifically says that: This is on a beach.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yes, but the OP specifically says that: This is on a beach.


Not that it makes a difference really.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Not that it makes a difference really.

Heck yes it does. It all-but gives Gaara the fight.

[Tanuki Tales]

Heck yes it does. It all-but gives Gaara the fight.

Gaara's debaters have yet to prove this as being anything but a lose at best for Gaara, a curbstomp at worse.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Gaara's debaters have yet to prove this as being anything but a lose at best for Gaara, a curbstomp at worse.

Gaara can pick up Crocodile in a Sand Coffin. Gaara then moves that Sand Coffin out over the body of water. Gaara then drops Crocodile out into the body of water.

Game.

Set.

Match.

[Tanuki Tales]

Gaara can pick up Crocodile in a Sand Coffin. Gaara then moves that Sand Coffin out over the body of water. Gaara then drops Crocodile out into the body of water.

Game.

Set.

Match.

Assuming Gaara knows his weakness.

Assuming Gaara is fast enough to catch Crocodile in that.

Assuming Crocodile doesn't just slip through the Sabaku Kyu.

Assuming Crocdile forgets he can fly.

Edit: Just thought of something else; what prevents Crocodile caught in a Sabaku Kyu to use Desert Sables to blow it open? Assuming he can't slip through it.

[Prime32]

I'll reiterate again and again:

Gaara's standard defenses can't tank what Crocodile brings to the board. And there's no evidence that any of his shields would block Crocodile's moisture draining abilities or that Gaara can control wet sand. Please refrain from giving Gaara abilities that he has never showcased in the series just to justify your hypothetical win scenarios.There is no evidence that Crocodile's "kill with a touch" ability won't work if Gaara stops him from touching him? :smallconfused: And as mentioned, Gaara used to regularly soak his sand in blood to no ill effects. Heck, Crocodile has never been demonstrated to not explode in the presence of a Tailed Beast. :smalltongue: Almost every time a jinchuuriki is drained, it harms the attacker without injuring the jinchuuriki.


Gaara would have no reason to devise a technique that would exert such pressure as to prevent any sand to slip through and it's not like an opponent has never slipped attacks through his sand before.Gaara is perfectly capable of doing that (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimately_Hard_Absolute_Defence:_Shield_of_Shukak u).


Gaara's debaters have yet to prove this as being anything but a lose at best for Gaara, a curbstomp at worse.We have to prove that Crocodile is at a disadvantage when hurled into the sea? :smallconfused:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Assuming Gaara knows his weakness.
Once the two duke it out long enough for blood, anybodies blood, to get drawn, it'll be immediately obvious.


Assuming Gaara is fast enough to catch Crocodile in that.
This could be a problem, but Gaara's sand control is shown to be near instantaneous, so I don't think we're going to ever get a good verdict hear.


Assuming Crocodile doesn't just slip through the Sabaku Kyu.
By doing that he would eneter Gaara's sand. Which is full of HIS chakra. It would tear him to shreds.


Assuming Crocdile forgets he can fly.
Fine. Dunk him while he's in the Sand Coffin.

[Tanuki Tales]

There is no evidence that Crocodile's "kill with a touch" ability won't work if Gaara stops him from touching him? :smallconfused: And as mentioned, Gaara used to regularly soak his sand in blood to no ill effects.

Ground Seco or Ground Death. The ground Crocodile touches and everything that is touching that is drained of moisture. So Gaara's Suna no Tatei would block this only if Gaara wasn't in contact with his outer shield. Gaara's Sun no Yoroi provides no protection.



Gaara is perfectly capable of doing that (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimately_Hard_Absolute_Defence:_Shield_of_Shukak u).

You honestly want to bring up his stationary waste of chakra and sand? The one that one could easily go around?


@Atlantean: So what if his sand is full of his chakra? What is Gaara going to do? Grate sand against sand? How does that do anything?

And this fight doesn't last long enough for Gaara to just casually bleed from nonglancing/superficial blows. Crocodile goes for the throat and if any of his blows would draw blood, it's far more likely those would be fatal blows.

[Prime32]

Ground Seco or Ground Death. The ground Crocodile touches and everything that is touching that is drained of moisture. So Gaara's Suna no Tatei would block this only if Gaara wasn't in contact with his outer shield. Gaara's Sun no Yoroi provides no protection.And what typically happens when someone tries to drain a jinchuuriki? Besides, Gaara can create decoys, do the ninja-dodge thing, and fly.

[AtlanteanTroll]

And what typically happens when someone tries to drain a jinchuuriki? Besides, Gaara can fly.

Drain? Well, it just doesn't work. Now, absorption on the other hand, that's an insta-fail.

[Tanuki Tales]

And what typically happens when someone tries to drain a jinchuuriki without being a giant demon-god-thing and a dozen of the strongest characters in the series? Besides, Gaara can fly.

Drained of Chakra, not drained of moisture. Though that's really beside the point since I assumed everyone here was more or less arguing current Kazekage Gaara vs. Crocodile.

And? I never said he couldn't.

[AtlanteanTroll]

@Atlantean: So what if his sand is full of his chakra? What is Gaara going to do? Grate sand against sand? How does that do anything?
Things filled with Chakra tend to hurt.


And this fight doesn't last long enough for Gaara to just casually bleed from nonglancing/superficial blows. Crocodile goes for the throat and if any of his blows would draw blood, it's far more likely those would be fatal blows.

Sand shield. And as mentioned, Gaara can also fly and probably control Crocodile while he's made of sand.

[Mikeavelli]

Blood sand, wet sand, yes, Gaara can control wet sand. Stop trying to say he can't.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Desert_Suspension

Gaara can Fly.

[Tanuki Tales]

Blood sand, wet sand, yes, Gaara can control wet sand. Stop trying to say he can't.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Desert_Suspension

Gaara can Fly.


There is no evidence that Gaara can control sufficiently liquid saturated sand to use as a weapon against Crocodile. The burden of proof is on you since it was the Gaara debaters who claimed that he could use wet sand as a weapon against Crocodile.

I say again, I never said he couldn't.

@Atlantean: And? Chakra isn't Haki. A Chakra infused weapon won't hurt a Logia class user anymore than a non-Chakra infused weapon.

Edit: Also, there is no evidence that Gaara can control sentient sand. And if you claim he can and we agree to that he would be able to, then Crocodile could also intermingle his sand with Gaara's and control Gaara's sand.

[Mikeavelli]

There is no evidence that Gaara can control sufficiently liquid saturated sand to use as a weapon against Crocodile. The burden of proof is on you since it was the Gaara debaters who claimed that he could use wet sand as a weapon against Crocodile.


You refusing to believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means you refuse to believe it.

Luffy's hands weren't terribly wet with blood when he defeated Crocodile, and Gaara is able to soak his sand with the blood of an entire person.

[Prime32]

There is no evidence that Gaara can control sufficiently liquid saturated sand to use as a weapon against Crocodile. The burden of proof is on you since it was the Gaara debaters who claimed that he could use wet sand as a weapon against Crocodile.

I say again, I never said he couldn't.


And there's no evidence that any of his shields would block Crocodile's moisture draining abilities or that Gaara can control wet sand.*cough* :smallconfused:

[AtlanteanTroll]

There is no evidence that Gaara can control sufficiently liquid saturated sand to use as a weapon against Crocodile. The burden of proof is on you since it was the Gaara debaters who claimed that he could use wet sand as a weapon against Crocodile.
He's used saturated sand. How much so doesn't really matter.



@Atlantean: And? Chakra isn't Haki. A Chakra infused weapon won't hurt a Logia class user anymore than a non-Chakra infused weapon.
Haki and Chakra don't exist in the Naruto and OP universes (respectively). So it doesn't really matter. We don't know Chakra can't hurt Crocodile and we don't know that Crocodile can't pull off some crazy-ass-jutsu.



Edit: Also, there is no evidence that Gaara can control sentient sand. And if you claim he can and we agree to that he would be able to, then Crocodile could also intermingle his sand with Gaara's and control Gaara's sand.
No proof he can't. And yeah, that's why this is sort of a stand-still.

[BlackDragonKing]

The beach seems to be the real breaking factor in the fight; neither opponent would typically fight in such a setting, but a desert battle is so overwhelmingly in Crocodile's favor that the fight is literally unwinnable for Gaara unless they're at the beach, sand stealing or no sand-stealing.

Even in this scenario which is clearly set up to give Crocodile a handicap, though, the fight still goes to Crocodile unless Gaara arrives at the someone unintuitive solution of trying to douse the man attempting to kill him with a hand that absorbs all water it touches in water. Secondly, how's he going to do that, exactly? Drop him in it with sand? Crocodile can fly. Throw water at him? Incredibly awkward with the tools available to Gaara, which means it's got a pretty good chance of getting blocked by Crocodile's dehydration technique like Luffy's water attacks were.

That's assuming that Gaara even gets to figure out how he's supposed to fight crocodile before something goes wrong. Gaara's not going to automatically assume that his enemy is vulnerable to water attacks or can't swim, so he's probably going to go for his crushing with sand attacks, which won't slow Crocodile down. On the other hand, Desert Spada is powerful enough to cut a grown man in two and leave a deep gash in the ground that goes a long way. That strikes me as a LOT more piercing power than the Chidori ever had, and the chidori punched through Gaara's defenses without much trouble.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Gaara winning this fight, particularly since it's been mentioned that Gaara's the brute-force style battler and Crocodile's the strategist, not the other way around.

[Tanuki Tales]

You refusing to believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means you refuse to believe it.

Luffy's hands weren't terribly wet with blood when he defeated Crocodile, and Gaara is able to soak his sand with the blood of an entire person.

The burden of proof is on your side. Just because your sole backing evidence is "I say so" amounts to nothing.

Gaara has never been shown to utilize blood soaked sand. He has crushed people to death with sand, and we have seen blood intermingling with it. But we have never seen him use it effectively in combat or that it was completely saturated.

Luffy was bleeding profusely enough from his hands and feet that the blood was flowing in visible, copious streams. These are the areas that he used to pummel Crocodile, who tanked almost all of the attacks and kept on going.

@Prime: Yes?


He's used saturated sand. How much so doesn't really matter.

When? We've never seen him use saturated sand in combat.



Haki and Chakra don't exist in the Naruto and OP universes (respectively). So it doesn't really matter. We don't know Chakra can't hurt Crocodile and we don't know that Crocodile can't pull off some crazy-ass-jutsu.

Chakra is not Haki. Chakra does not bypass Devil Fruit defenses like Haki does. Claiming otherwise is giving Gaara abilities he doesn't explicitly have and makes the fight silly and unarguable.



No proof he can't. And yeah, that's why this is sort of a stand-still.

Burden of Proof, is again on your side. You claim he can control sentient sand, so prove this.

[Mikeavelli]

Gaara has never been shown to utilize blood soaked sand. He has crushed people to death with sand, and we have seen blood intermingling with it. But we have never seen him use it effectively in combat or that it was completely saturated.
?

Yeah, no. You're completely off base here.

[AtlanteanTroll]

The burden of proof is on your side. Just because your sole backing evidence is "I say so" amounts to nothing.
I am honestly speechless. It means he's right.


Gaara has never been shown to utilize blood soaked sand. He has crushed people to death with sand, and we have seen blood intermingling with it. But we have never seen him use it effectively in combat or that it was completely saturated.

He does it all the time!! It doesn't matter if it wasn't "completely saturated" it was saturated, and that's enough.


Luffy was bleeding profusely enough from his hands and feet that the blood was flowing in visible, copious streams. These are the areas that he used to pummel Crocodile, who tanked almost all of the attacks and kept on going.
Yes. This was because you know, Luffy was half dead, not because Croc's so tough.

[Tanuki Tales]

He does it all the time!! It doesn't matter if it wasn't "completely saturated" it was saturated, and that's enough.

When? When he crushed the Shinboi during the Chunin Exam the sand was darkened to show the blood was mixed in with the sand. We don't see such colored sand ever again during the series. And he didn't subsequently use the blood soaked sand after killing that one Shinobi.

Also, again, I'm under the assumption we were using current Gaara. You know, the guy who's all about love and friendship now and isn't a sociopath who'd keep bloody sand around?



Yes. This was because you know, Luffy was half dead, not because Croc's so tough.

So you're claiming that Luffy was less physically strong than he is known to be? Or shown when he punched a man through several meters of solid bedrock?

[Xondoure]

The beach seems to be the real breaking factor in the fight; neither opponent would typically fight in such a setting, but a desert battle is so overwhelmingly in Crocodile's favor that the fight is literally unwinnable for Gaara unless they're at the beach, sand stealing or no sand-stealing.

Even in this scenario which is clearly set up to give Crocodile a handicap, though, the fight still goes to Crocodile unless Gaara arrives at the someone unintuitive solution of trying to douse the man attempting to kill him with a hand that absorbs all water it touches in water. Secondly, how's he going to do that, exactly? Drop him in it with sand? Crocodile can fly. Throw water at him? Incredibly awkward with the tools available to Gaara, which means it's got a pretty good chance of getting blocked by Crocodile's dehydration technique like Luffy's water attacks were.

That's assuming that Gaara even gets to figure out how he's supposed to fight crocodile before something goes wrong. Gaara's not going to automatically assume that his enemy is vulnerable to water attacks or can't swim, so he's probably going to go for his crushing with sand attacks, which won't slow Crocodile down. On the other hand, Desert Spada is powerful enough to cut a grown man in two and leave a deep gash in the ground that goes a long way. That strikes me as a LOT more piercing power than the Chidori ever had, and the chidori punched through Gaara's defenses without much trouble.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Gaara winning this fight, particularly since it's been mentioned that Gaara's the brute-force style battler and Crocodile's the strategist, not the other way around.

This. Yes Gaara can use wet sand. Croc can avoid it (Deidara could and he is much more mobile than Deidara ever was,) seep his sand through Gaara's defenses or obliterate them altogether, and he has more stamina and cunning than Gaara has ever shown.

[Dvandemon]

So, this is rather moot no? One side has to prove themselves right on a matter never addressed in the series. This is rather surprising because you'd think Gaara would have gone up against another sand ninjutsu at some point, ninja are capable of turning themselves into stone. Gaara can control wet sand but it's harder for the same reason as Crocodile. He may used blood saturated sand (whether or not he even still carries that sand around) but this is blood people, it coagulates pretty damn quickly, especially since it's sand we're talking about. Gaara's defenses would probably be weakened, as not only is Crocodile invulnerable to physical harm but he can simply use Desert Crescent and dehydrate him under his armor.
@Prime32: We are not talking about draining chakra so you can stop bringing that up @.@ :smallsigh: We are talking draining moisture which should have no special properties from the sealed beast. Get your facts straight people.

[Tanuki Tales]

@Prime32: We are not talking about draining chakra so you can stop bringing that up @.@ :smallsigh: We are talking draining moisture which should have no special properties from the sealed beast. Get your facts straight people.

Especially since Naruto was the only one shown with a Healing Factor.

[Dvandemon]

Depends on whether his healing factor can stave off dehydration, the way it's described, it only deals with enhanced cellular activity and not resources such as water. Although this is a digression and shouldn't be really discussed unless Gaara has similar conditions.

[Mina Kobold]

Yes. This was because you know, Luffy was half dead, not because Croc's so tough.

So? He still ended the battle by punching Croc through several metres of solid rock with enough momentum to fly far enough into the sky to land in a completely different part of the city.

Doesn't matter if his punches were weaker than normal, he still punched Croc with that kind of strength without our favourite Casino-owning pirate falling until that last one.

On another note, I propose they team up and fight crime (or heroism?) in epic adventures!

Thus both win! :smalltongue:

[Traab]

So wait, you are claiming that if I shut and locked a wood door between me and croc and leaned against it with that whole panting, "we are safe" reaction. And croc drained the moisture out of the door, it would effect me too? Any canon proof of that? I didnt follow one piece very much, so while Iknow who croc IS I dont recall the battles.

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't see why Croc could drain Gaara of moisture through thick and hard, already dry layer of chakra-infused sand. He'd need to punch through it first.

I'm still fan of the idea that their sand controls are mutually exclusive - sand infused by Gaara's chakra is immovable to Croc, and likewise, Croc's body is immovable to Gaara. I see no reason to assume one's sovereignty over their element is any greater than that of the other, so that would strike me as most reasonable.

[Kato]

I'm still fan of the idea that their sand controls are mutually exclusive - sand infused by Gaara's chakra is immovable to Croc, and likewise, Croc's body is immovable to Gaara. I see no reason to assume one's sovereignty over their element is any greater than that of the other, so that would strike me as most reasonable.

Definitely... Otherwise the thing makes little sense. Otherwise one could limit Crocodile to the amount of sand he can turn his body into (roughly estimated applying conservation of mass) and Gaara to his gourd. But I'd rather say we have two kinds of sand on the field, one under Croc's commando the other under Gaara's.

Still, I don't think that helps at all with the discussion at hand.

[Mina Kobold]

So wait, you are claiming that if I shut and locked a wood door between me and croc and leaned against it with that whole panting, "we are safe" reaction. And croc drained the moisture out of the door, it would effect me too? Any canon proof of that? I didnt follow one piece very much, so while Iknow who croc IS I dont recall the battles.

When Croc uses Ground Seco he turns the floor into sand, what some may miss (is it even in the anime? It's in the manga) is that Luffy's sandals are turned to sand as well. Luffy himself jumpig to avoid it when that happens.

He also have an attack that creates a thin wave of sand which sucked Luffy's arm dry. He got better. :smalltongue:


I don't see why Croc could drain Gaara of moisture through thick and hard, already dry layer of chakra-infused sand. He'd need to punch through it first.

I'm still fan of the idea that their sand controls are mutually exclusive - sand infused by Gaara's chakra is immovable to Croc, and likewise, Croc's body is immovable to Gaara. I see no reason to assume one's sovereignty over their element is any greater than that of the other, so that would strike me as most reasonable.

Se above, he sucked the moisture from 'dry' bedrock and turned it into sand. Whether it works on Gaara's sand depends on how much blood or other non-mineral materials he has infused it with.

I like that idea too, it makes sense that Gaara's sand would at least be difficult for Croc to control, but what about the sand Croc uses? Since he can make sandstorms and quicksand out of normal sand that isn't a part of him, would it be affected by Gaara?

[DiscipleofBob]

So wait, you are claiming that if I shut and locked a wood door between me and croc and leaned against it with that whole panting, "we are safe" reaction. And croc drained the moisture out of the door, it would effect me too? Any canon proof of that? I didnt follow one piece very much, so while Iknow who croc IS I dont recall the battles.

If you were leaning against the door, yes. Otherwise, not so much. When Crocodile drains moisture it usually means anything that's directly in contact with what he's draining from.

However, your "we are safe" reaction will be hilariously interrupted by the wooden door disintegrating and Crocodile standing there going "Kuhahaha..."

I'm still standing in the Crocodile corner, just because from looking at the pro-Gaara argument, it's taking the most convoluted logic just to find a way to even touch Crocodile, and Gaara will eventually run out of MP... er... Chakra. I've got nothing against either, it's just that Logia abilities in One Piece really are hax.

About the blood-soaked sand argument, the reason Luffy's blood worked was because it was in liquid form all over his body. Gaara's "blood-soaked sand" was completely dry, as sand tends to be, it just had traces of his blood in it allowing for easier control. Even if Gaara could somehow control mud from sand and water (a detail I can't find a single instance of), it probably wouldn't work, as it's still not pure liquid and thus can't get Crocodile wet.

Either one of two scenarios I can see happening: Either Crocodile infiltrates Gaara's sand shield before the latter realizes what's happening and takes him out early either with the poison hook or the drought hand, or Crocodile plays the long game that he's great at until Gaara uses up his chakra.

[Traab]

If you were leaning against the door, yes. Otherwise, not so much. When Crocodile drains moisture it usually means anything that's directly in contact with what he's draining from.

However, your "we are safe" reaction will be hilariously interrupted by the wooden door disintegrating and Crocodile standing there going "Kuhahaha..."

I'm still standing in the Crocodile corner, just because from looking at the pro-Gaara argument, it's taking the most convoluted logic just to find a way to even touch Crocodile, and Gaara will eventually run out of MP... er... Chakra. I've got nothing against either, it's just that Logia abilities in One Piece really are hax.

About the blood-soaked sand argument, the reason Luffy's blood worked was because it was in liquid form all over his body. Gaara's "blood-soaked sand" was completely dry, as sand tends to be, it just had traces of his blood in it allowing for easier control. Even if Gaara could somehow control mud from sand and water (a detail I can't find a single instance of), it probably wouldn't work, as it's still not pure liquid and thus can't get Crocodile wet.

Either one of two scenarios I can see happening: Either Crocodile infiltrates Gaara's sand shield before the latter realizes what's happening and takes him out early either with the poison hook or the drought hand, or Crocodile plays the long game that he's great at until Gaara uses up his chakra.

Heh, I wasnt suggesting they would be safe after getting behind a door, I was just drawing a mental picture so you could see what I meant. You have to have seen a movie or tv show where someone is running for their life, they get to a door, slam it shut behind them, and lean on it panting, often with some version of, "Safe at last" on their lips. Of course, thats always followed by a smash as the bad guy breaks down the door, stabs them THROUGH the door, or otherwise proves that no, they ARENT safe there.

As for draining anything touching what hes touching, there HAS to be a limit to that. A radius of effect, a number of layers he can get through, something. Otherwise he could put his hand on the wall of a house, dry it to sand, the foundation it rests on, the yard all around it, the street at the end of the yard, every car on said street, the neighborhood down the block, etc etc etc. All by touching a single wall and holding it long enough.

As for infiltrating garras sand, I have to give that a no. It would be just as easy for garra to infiltrate CROCS sand when he goes to reform after taking a hit. Garra could constantly force croc to turn into sand as his own keeps tearing him apart from the inside.

[BlackDragonKing]

So wait, you are claiming that if I shut and locked a wood door between me and croc and leaned against it with that whole panting, "we are safe" reaction. And croc drained the moisture out of the door, it would effect me too? Any canon proof of that? I didnt follow one piece very much, so while Iknow who croc IS I dont recall the battles.

If crocodile touches a wooden door, the door will crack and then basically disintegrate.

That power can let Crocodile turn sections of a POPULATED CITY into a wasteland at will. The Sand Sand Fruit's dehydration power is by far its most broken.

[Mikeavelli]

The Dehydrating the ground power is also easily countered because, as already pointed out, Gaara can Fly.

It'd work if Crocodile could take Gaara completely by surprise with it, but the same could be said for just about any attack.

Why does everyone keep saying Crocodile is super-fast and super-strong? In every part of the Anime, his fighting skills are based mostly around abusing his Logia fruit powers, and he gets torn apart pretty quickly every time he gets wet.

Sand containing the blood of an entire person is more wet then someone who is bleeding profusely, but still has enough blood inside them to fight.

I’m not saying Gaara is going to use blood in this fight, nor am I saying it’s still wet with blood from years ago. No-one has said this. Why is this confusing? I’m saying he can control sand that is wet enough to affect Crocodile, and since they’re on a beach, he has access to it.

[DiscipleofBob]

Heh, I wasnt suggesting they would be safe after getting behind a door, I was just drawing a mental picture so you could see what I meant. You have to have seen a movie or tv show where someone is running for their life, they get to a door, slam it shut behind them, and lean on it panting, often with some version of, "Safe at last" on their lips. Of course, thats always followed by a smash as the bad guy breaks down the door, stabs them THROUGH the door, or otherwise proves that no, they ARENT safe there.

As for draining anything touching what hes touching, there HAS to be a limit to that. A radius of effect, a number of layers he can get through, something. Otherwise he could put his hand on the wall of a house, dry it to sand, the foundation it rests on, the yard all around it, the street at the end of the yard, every car on said street, the neighborhood down the block, etc etc etc. All by touching a single wall and holding it long enough.

As for infiltrating garras sand, I have to give that a no. It would be just as easy for garra to infiltrate CROCS sand when he goes to reform after taking a hit. Garra could constantly force croc to turn into sand as his own keeps tearing him apart from the inside.

There is probably a limit on the drain moisture ability, though I'm not sure what it is. The most we've really seen it work on is a whole palace courtyard, where Crocodile turned everything in the courtyard into a dry husk, Luffy only barely escaping by leaping out of the way.

The thing with Gaara infiltrating Croc's sand is that how much good would it really do? Even if there are foreign sand particles and it starts "tearing him up from the inside," once again, Crocodile is still untouchable. The most it could really do is give him a funny tickling feeling. I was more thinking the VS Deidara fight where Gaara retracts his sand only for Deidara to have snuck a bomb in with it. Infiltrating the sand probably wouldn't work if Gaara was expecting it, that's why it could only possibly work very early on in the fight.

But this is getting into the "whether or not they can control each other's sand" territory, which I agree only confounds things unless we can assume a stalemate.

[Traab]

Can croc keep fighting if he is in sand mode? If not, it would be an interesting method of at least forcing a long term stalemate. As for tickling croc, remember, garra can make shuriken out of sand. Imagine having one of those things buzz sawing you internally every time you reform? Also, the water thing. Croc is MADE of sand. Garra above all others should be aware that water and sand are a bad mix. I honestly dont think its very counter intuitive that he would try soaking croc somehow and see what it does. He is also capable of doing more than one thing at a time with his sand, so it isnt unreasonable to think he would use that internal sand shuriken move to delay croc while he sets up a major dunking.

[DiscipleofBob]

The Dehydrating the ground power is also easily countered because, as already pointed out, Gaara can Fly.

It'd work if Crocodile could take Gaara completely by surprise with it, but the same could be said for just about any attack.

Agreed.


Why does everyone keep saying Crocodile is super-fast and super-strong? In every part of the Anime, his fighting skills are based mostly around abusing his Logia fruit powers, and he gets torn apart pretty quickly every time he gets wet.

The first time he was really doused in water, he was fighting Luffy for the third time, who's shown to be ridiculously strong even at that point in the series. As in punch through several hundred feet of solid rock strong. Crocodile does manage to go toe-to-toe with some of the strongest characters in the series (ie. Mihawk). He's about as strong, fast, and durable as many of the later characters in the series, which is still saying something by One Piece standards.

On the flip side, I could be wrong about this, but I thought one of Gaara's major traits was that he was physically weak when compared to other ninjas, he just had a huge chakra reserve, an auto-defense, and Shukaku to fall back on. When that all ran out he was kind of helpless. I could be wrong there though.


Sand containing the blood of an entire person is more wet then someone who is bleeding profusely, but still has enough blood inside them to fight.

I'm... not sure I agree with this. Once something like blood or water mixes with sand, it becomes clay or mud, and really becomes too thick to be considered liquid enough to trigger Crocodile's weakness. I suppose Gaara could manipulate the sand to condense to a solid consistency and use it as a bowl or something.


I’m not saying Gaara is going to use blood in this fight, nor am I saying it’s still wet with blood from years ago. No-one has said this. Why is this confusing? I’m saying he can control sand that is wet enough to affect Crocodile, and since they’re on a beach, he has access to it.

Agreed on the first part.

But the beach is what confuses me. Why is this assumed to be on a beach? It seems like one of the least plausible locations. Gaara lives in the middle of a desert in a landlocked country. Crocodile is, yes, a seafaring pirate, who just because the ocean and water can doom him doesn't really fear it. But he's also intelligent enough to pick his battles wisely. I always assumed the battle setup would be Crocodile and whatever cronies he's managed to gather would attack the Sand Village, and Gaara and Crocodile would duel one-on-one because apparently that's how ninjas do things. Hence, the middle of the desert.

[DiscipleofBob]

Can croc keep fighting if he is in sand mode? If not, it would be an interesting method of at least forcing a long term stalemate. As for tickling croc, remember, garra can make shuriken out of sand. Imagine having one of those things buzz sawing you internally every time you reform? Also, the water thing. Croc is MADE of sand. Garra above all others should be aware that water and sand are a bad mix. I honestly dont think its very counter intuitive that he would try soaking croc somehow and see what it does. He is also capable of doing more than one thing at a time with his sand, so it isnt unreasonable to think he would use that internal sand shuriken move to delay croc while he sets up a major dunking.

Yes, he can keep fighting in sand mode. In fact, he primarily fights in sand mode. Also, it doesn't matter if it's a buzz saw or a chainsaw or a bomb or whatever. It wouldn't affect him. Wouldn't cause even an ounce of pain. It's not that Crocodile has to choose to go to sand form, he's technically always in it.

Another point is that Crocodile can also simply partially reform. If something's wrong with his torso, he can just reform the head and arms.

Gaara is clever enough that the idea might occur to him along the avenue of literally trying every possible idea he could think of. My only question is whether or not there would be a possible way for him to soak Crocodile. If they're fighting on the beach, sure, but once again I don't understand why that's the arena of choice, other than to give Crocodile a handicap.

Also, just because Gaara could have a possible way to get Crocodile wet does not mean an automatic win for Gaara. It just turns a completely impossible fight into at least slightly possible.

[BlackDragonKing]

The Dehydrating the ground power is also easily countered because, as already pointed out, Gaara can Fly.

It'd work if Crocodile could take Gaara completely by surprise with it, but the same could be said for just about any attack.

Why does everyone keep saying Crocodile is super-fast and super-strong? In every part of the Anime, his fighting skills are based mostly around abusing his Logia fruit powers, and he gets torn apart pretty quickly every time he gets wet.

Torn apart pretty quickly amounted to Luffy figuring out his weakness, taking him on with a barrel of water, and getting his ass handed to him. Followed by a rematch where luffy fought with his hands and feet drenched in blood and still needed to pummel Crocodile through several sheets of bedrock after a long, grueling fight just to KNOCK HIM OUT. Crocodile is absurdly tough even without his sand defenses, based on the amount of unresisted hits he takes from a guy who punches out sea monsters without blinking.

Also, given that Gaara barely moves when he fights, Crocodile might as well be super-fast compared to him.

As for the sand shuriken inside of him theory, it's unlikely to work; crocodile doesn't need to form his entire body to attack, nor does defending halt his attacks. If you picked up a sword and slashed Crocodile in the head, you would hit sand and get a hook in the gut. Similarly, walking through machine gun fire would punch a bunch of harmless little holes in croc, but he'd continue to be able to attacking in such a state.

As for DiscipleOfBob's question of why this is a beach, I'm confused by that, too, since Crocodile isn't even a seafaring pirate until very recently; he moved his operation into the middle of the biggest desert he could find and then set up for it to never rain there again. The beach arena is chosen almost entirely because Gaara doesn't have a way to fight back in the desert despite it being the place he's used to fighting in.

[Traab]

But the beach is what confuses me. Why is this assumed to be on a beach? It seems like one of the least plausible locations. Gaara lives in the middle of a desert in a landlocked country. Crocodile is, yes, a seafaring pirate, who just because the ocean and water can doom him doesn't really fear it. But he's also intelligent enough to pick his battles wisely. I always assumed the battle setup would be Crocodile and whatever cronies he's managed to gather would attack the Sand Village, and Gaara and Crocodile would duel one-on-one because apparently that's how ninjas do things. Hence, the middle of the desert.

Its on a beach because otherwise the battle is pointless. There has to be water nearby or there is no way for garra to have even a shot at final victory. The most he would be able to do is delay until he runs out of chakra. Even with the nearby water it isnt an easy victory, it just opens up a chance for croc to lose.

[John Cribati]

They're on a beach out of fairness. In the One Piece universe, everyone and his brother (Except probably Ussop and maybe Nami) can lift tons, punch with the force of a train, and tank hits from... tanks. Without the sea to give him an advantage of Crocodile, Gaara honestly stands no chance whatsoever. Can Crocodile pierce Gaara's shield? Possibly, probably, and eventually. Is Gaara crafty enough to find some way to get Crocodile wet?

Gaara's best chance is making a sort of sand platform over the ocean and waiting for/forcing Crocodile to screw up and fall in.

[Coidzor]

As for draining anything touching what hes touching, there HAS to be a limit to that. A radius of effect, a number of layers he can get through, something. Otherwise he could put his hand on the wall of a house, dry it to sand, the foundation it rests on, the yard all around it, the street at the end of the yard, every car on said street, the neighborhood down the block, etc etc etc. All by touching a single wall and holding it long enough.

Um, you just demonstrated the limitation inherent in the system. He'd take out the wall first and have to move on. :smalltongue: Or he just has to be touching sand which is touching the object.

[Mikeavelli]

The first time he was really doused in water, he was fighting Luffy for the third time, who's shown to be ridiculously strong even at that point in the series. As in punch through several hundred feet of solid rock strong. Crocodile does manage to go toe-to-toe with some of the strongest characters in the series (ie. Mihawk). He's about as strong, fast, and durable as many of the later characters in the series, which is still saying something by One Piece standards.

On the flip side, I could be wrong about this, but I thought one of Gaara's major traits was that he was physically weak when compared to other ninjas, he just had a huge chakra reserve, an auto-defense, and Shukaku to fall back on. When that all ran out he was kind of helpless. I could be wrong there though.



Crocodile depends on his Logia fruit powers to keep going toe-to-toe with other Devil fruit users. In a solely physical confrontation (both Croc and Gaara without powers), Crocodile would dominate easily. I am, however, still convinced that Gaara can “out-power” Crocodile.



I'm... not sure I agree with this. Once something like blood or water mixes with sand, it becomes clay or mud, and really becomes too thick to be considered liquid enough to trigger Crocodile's weakness. I suppose Gaara could manipulate the sand to condense to a solid consistency and use it as a bowl or something.


Go to the beach, seriously. There’s nothing odd or unusable about wet sand.

[Prime32]

Gaara's best chance is making a sort of sand platform over the ocean and waiting for/forcing Crocodile to screw up and fall in.Or transforming into Shukaku while in the ocean and firing Wind Bullets/Tailed Beast Balls.

Which reminds me - Shukaku!Gaara was fighting a guy who fired water balls the size of houses. Getting wet had no effect on his sand.

[Xondoure]

The problem is Gaara isn't that creative and he has no reason to know any of Croc's weaknesses when the fight begins. Crocodile is no idiot and would ensure Gaara didn't last long enough to find out.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm... not sure I agree with this. Once something like blood or water mixes with sand, it becomes clay or mud, and really becomes too thick to be considered liquid enough to trigger Crocodile's weakness. I suppose Gaara could manipulate the sand to condense to a solid consistency and use it as a bowl or something.


Sand doesn't become clay or mud, it becomes wet sand, the actual grains of sand stay the same size.

Also, it's not that Crocodile has a particular "weakness" (other than immersion in seawater like any devil fruit user), just that he can't absorb the moisture and turn to sand at the same time, and the absorbing power takes precedence, so if you smacked him with a ton of wet sand he would have to take the force of the hit whilst he absorbed the moisture from the sand.

[Kato]

The problem is Gaara isn't that creative and he has no reason to know any of Croc's weaknesses when the fight begins. Crocodile is no idiot and would ensure Gaara didn't last long enough to find out.

I really want to be the one constantly arguing against Crocodile but... isn't that what he did to Luffy? Nearly killing him and not simply wasting one more minute to be sure so he won't show up again? No, Crocodile isn't genre savy enough to finish of a worthy opponent just like that, he likes to... I don't know. Make his enemy feel powerless? Or maybe he's just overconfident and thinks nobody'd survive his attacks.
Whatever the case, he's not one to make sure he kills/ed an opponent given the chance.

[Traab]

The problem is Gaara isn't that creative and he has no reason to know any of Croc's weaknesses when the fight begins. Crocodile is no idiot and would ensure Gaara didn't last long enough to find out.

Whats to be creative about? "Hmm, he is made of sand. I hate it when MY sand gets wet. Lets try making HIM wet!"

[Venom3053000]

True if Gaara has trouble useing wet sand, then he will probably try using water on Crocodile to see if any thing happens to him.

of course the second Gaara use water Crocodile will stop messing around and kill him, Bcause Rock Lee could break though Gaara's sand and Crocodile is much stronger than Rock Lee.

[Mina Kobold]

They're on a beach out of fairness. In the One Piece universe, everyone and his brother (Except probably Ussop and maybe Nami) can lift tons, punch with the force of a train, and tank hits from... tanks. Without the sea to give him an advantage of Crocodile, Gaara honestly stands no chance whatsoever. Can Crocodile pierce Gaara's shield? Possibly, probably, and eventually. Is Gaara crafty enough to find some way to get Crocodile wet?

Gaara's best chance is making a sort of sand platform over the ocean and waiting for/forcing Crocodile to screw up and fall in.

Isn't this discussion about who is the strongest? If the battle was made entirely fair it would be impossible to tell who would win, wouldn't it?


Whats to be creative about? "Hmm, he is made of sand. I hate it when MY sand gets wet. Lets try making HIM wet!"

Why would he hate getting his sand wet? It has been stated that earth thrumps water in the Naruto-verse and that he deliberately soaked his sand in blood.

[Traab]

True if Gaara has trouble useing wet sand, then he will probably try using water on Crocodile to see if any thing happens to him.

of course the second Gaara use water Crocodile will stop messing around and kill him, Bcause Rock Lee could break though Gaara's sand and Crocodile is much stronger than Rock Lee.

Except rock lee wasnt able to break through both of garras defenses. He used speed to get past the first layer, and barely was able to crack the second. I dopnt think croc is fast enough to get by the sand shield, so we cant really say for sure how easily he will break through both combined.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Isn't this discussion about who is the strongest? If the battle was made entirely fair it would be impossible to tell who would win, wouldn't it?
No. It's about who would win. Even if this is a Shonen battle extravaganza, strength isn't the sole determinant.

[Mina Kobold]

No. It's about who would win. Even if this is a Shonen battle extravaganza, strength isn't the sole determinant.

But still, isn't this kind of like putting somebody against Superman but giving them Kryptonite gauntlets to have a chance?

I may just be overthinking it, though. So I apologise. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

But still, isn't this kind of like putting somebody against Superman but giving them Kryptonite gauntlets to have a chance?

I may just be overthinking it, though. So I apologise. :smallsmile:

Close but not exactly. Its more like, putting, I dunno, wonder woman, or hercules, against superman, then placing a chunk of kryptonite somewhere on the battlefield without his opponent knowing his weakness to it beforehand. Hercules is outmatched by superman, not horrifically so, but he WILL lose the fight, but if he can figure out supermans weakness and use it in time, he has a shot.

[Tanuki Tales]

I still would like to see evidence that Gaara has ever used wet sand. It's really a moot point at this point seeing as Gaara can't really tank Crocodile's blows with his standard defenses and Crocodile potentially has the strength if not the sheer speed to outrun Gaara's defenses in combat (Though honestly I wish we could see current Gaara fighting. We have no clue if his shields are still automatic since Shukaku originally was supposed to be behind that).

I'd also like to push the point brought up several times: Crocodile is the chessmaster here, not Gaara. Gaara does generally favor brute strength over strategy and not the other way around. That's how he nearly lost to Lee, that's how he nearly lost to Sasuke, that's how he lost against Naruto and that's how he got owned by Deidara. I highly doubt Gaara is going to casually find out Crocodile's weakness at all; it's not like he's going to just blunder and reveal it to him. And assuming for the sake of this part of the argument, where I am willing to concede to allow Gaara to manipulate wet sand even if there is no evidence of this, he would have no reason to believe that his opponent was hampered by water anymore than he was. Why would Gaara choose to use wet sand in this instance instead of the multitude of dry sand around him? I also reiterate; what stops Crocodile from kiting Gaara further inland away from the ocean? Without knowing Crocodile's weakness Gaara has zero reason to stay in the original environment of the fight.

I did mention concerning Luffy v. Crocodile that by the time of their third fight that Crocodile was in the middle of a mental meltdown. He was having his plans fall around his ears, he found out that everything that had lead him to this point in his master plan was a lie, he most likely figured out that his identity of Mr. 0 and thus his entire career as a Shichibukai was at risk and then what happens? That supposedly weakling rookie pirate who he had bested and nearly killed several times and had been a major thorn in his side showed up once again to oppose him. Crocodile was, in short, losing it and was thus practically jobbering the fight. He wasn't fighting intelligently like he normally would and its pretty much shown that even Marineford Luffy would have little chance in a fight against him, let alone how weak he was during Alabasta. Crocodile dropped the ball and got a beat down for his troubles.

On another note; why are people bringing up Shukaku? Are we not using current Kazekage Gaara? Because if we're not than we really need to specify WHICH Gaara is being debated here. Pre-Time Skip Gaara gets curbstomped pretty hard.


Edit: Crocodile's Ground Seco and Ground Death are being brought up as evidence that he could absorb Gaara's moisture through his vaunted shields if he was in contact with them at the same point Crocodile was draining through them.



Close but not exactly. Its more like, putting, I dunno, wonder woman, or hercules, against superman, then placing a chunk of kryptonite somewhere on the battlefield without his opponent knowing his weakness to it beforehand. Hercules is outmatched by superman, not horrifically so, but he WILL lose the fight, but if he can figure out supermans weakness and use it in time, he has a shot.

Unless it was Chaos War Hercules. :smallwink:

[Traab]

Every time he has crushed someone, that sand has been soaked by an entire bodies worth of blood. It doesnt just fall limp to the ground, it absorbs the moisture and doesnt fall apart. It comes back to garra, and is used for the next guy he has to fight. There is no evidence that the blood goes anywhere, so when he does something like say, crush those two ninja hired to make him lose against sasuke, there is no evidence that the blood went anywhere but into his sand, and unlike croc, garra doesnt have any ability to instantly dry blood out of his sand, so it had to have been there during his fight against sasuke. We dont see evidence of his sand being sopping wet, no, but it cant be bone dry at that point, its got a gallon of freaking blood in it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Every time he has crushed someone, that sand has been soaked by an entire bodies worth of blood. It doesnt just fall limp to the ground, it absorbs the moisture and doesnt fall apart. It comes back to garra, and is used for the next guy he has to fight. There is no evidence that the blood goes anywhere, so when he does something like say, crush those two ninja hired to make him lose against sasuke, there is no evidence that the blood went anywhere but into his sand, and unlike croc, garra doesnt have any ability to instantly dry blood out of his sand, so it had to have been there during his fight against sasuke. We dont see evidence of his sand being sopping wet, no, but it cant be bone dry at that point, its got a gallon of freaking blood in it.

I'll have to go review the instance of Gaara v. Sasuke, but at least in the case where we see Gaara fight for the first time he doesn't use the same sand that he killed the first shinobi with to kill the other two. You also have to take into account the blood to sand ratio and whether or not there would be sufficient moisture in the sand to deactivate Crocodile's Logia defenses.

But, again, this is not really a big point of this debate any longer, especially if we clarify this as being Post Time-Skip Gaara who wouldn't have blood satured sand to use as a combat weapon.

[Traab]

I'll have to go review the instance of Gaara v. Sasuke, but at least in the case where we see Gaara fight for the first time he doesn't use the same sand that he killed the first shinobi with to kill the other two. You also have to take into account the blood to sand ratio and whether or not there would be sufficient moisture in the sand to deactivate Crocodile's Logia defenses.

But, again, this is not really a big point of this debate any longer, especially if we clarify this as being Post Time-Skip Gaara who wouldn't have blood satured sand to use as a combat weapon.

True, but that wasnt my point. My point was to show that he is able to use liquid infused sand, considering how many people he DID crush, then pull that sand back into his gourd. I say that should be enough proof that we should include the capability of using sand thats wet enough to actually harm croc. We have seen basic evidence that he can use sand thats at least somewhat wet, and no evidence that he CANT.

[Tanuki Tales]

True, but that wasnt my point. My point was to show that he is able to use liquid infused sand, considering how many people he DID crush, then pull that sand back into his gourd. I say that should be enough proof that we should include the capability of using sand thats wet enough to actually harm croc. We have seen basic evidence that he can use sand thats at least somewhat wet, and no evidence that he CANT.

1. We don't know the blood to sand ratio.
2. We don't know the time delay between when Gaara is shown killing someone and when he next uses that sand.
3. It doesn't take that long for blood to dry, especially if its spread through out gallons of sand.

It was never argued that Gaara's sand wasn't blood saturated or that he had trouble controlling it as such. What was argued is whether or not Gaara can control sand that is so saturated with liquid that it is wet to the touch (i.e. sand that is in the shallows of the tide for a beach) and thus would be able to bypass Crocodile's Logia defenses.

As I said, I would be willing to concede this point for the sake of the debate but it then opens the avenue of Gaara having no reason to keep the fight at the beach without knowing his foe weakness.

So this point is at this venture moot.

[Traab]

1. We don't know the blood to sand ratio.
2. We don't know the time delay between when Gaara is shown killing someone and when he next uses that sand.
3. It doesn't take that long for blood to dry, especially if its spread through out gallons of sand.

It was never argued that Gaara's sand wasn't blood saturated or that he had trouble controlling it as such. What was argued is whether or not Gaara can control sand that is so saturated with liquid that it is wet to the touch (i.e. sand that is in the shallows of the tide for a beach) and thus would be able to bypass Crocodile's Logia defenses.

As I said, I would be willing to concede this point for the sake of the debate but it then opens the avenue of Gaara having no reason to keep the fight at the beach without knowing his foe weakness.

So this point is at this venture moot.

1) He doesnt have 500 gallons of sand in his gourd, the ratio isnt that important as all im trying to establish is that his sand does get wet, and it doesnt fall apart until it dries. Im not claiming it gets dripping wet, or even muddy, just that liquid hits it, and it doesnt drop out of his control. There is no sign that it even gets HARDER to control. There is no evidence that says wet sand is bad for him. But there is evidence that he can still work with sand that has had fluids introduced to it. I wish kishi would let a water dragon blast garra at this point just to settle the debate. I read all sorts of fanfiction where the author has his opponent turn his sand to mud to disrupt his control, or use jyuken to disrupt his control over it, but there is no official evidence that any of it would work or not.

2)Chunin exams, He crushed two stooges trying to make him lose, then walked out to the arena and started fighting. I doubt very much it took more than a minute or two for him to get there.

3) Im pretty sure a gourd full of sand filled with the blood of two people would take longer than 5 minutes to dry. Thats a LOT of blood.

As for no reason to keep the fight at the beach, he also has no reason to LEAVE the beach area. Sure croc would likely head inland as fast as he could, but that defeats the whole purpose of putting the fight scene at a beach in the first place. Generally, the whole point of stating a battleground for these vs matches is to show where the fight will take place, not just where it would start.

[Tanuki Tales]

1) He doesnt have 500 gallons of sand in his gourd, the ratio isnt that important as all im trying to establish is that his sand does get wet, and it doesnt fall apart until it dries. Im not claiming it gets dripping wet, or even muddy, just that liquid hits it, and it doesnt drop out of his control. There is no sign that it even gets HARDER to control. There is no evidence that says wet sand is bad for him. But there is evidence that he can still work with sand that has had fluids introduced to it. I wish kishi would let a water dragon blast garra at this point just to settle the debate. I read all sorts of fanfiction where the author has his opponent turn his sand to mud to disrupt his control, or use jyuken to disrupt his control over it, but there is no official evidence that any of it would work or not.

Mind you, this is rough math and is mostly eyeballing, but it looks like the top sphere of Gaara's gourd is 2 feet wide while the bottom on is 4 feet. So, ignoring the divider, finding the volume of the 2 spheres and converting cubic feet to gallons then his gourd should hold somewhere around 282 gallons of sand.

And yes, the ratio does matter. There is about 10 pints of blood in the human body and a gallon is about 8 pints. So even if Gaara had absorbed all the blood from the two shinobi (which he obviously hadn't), it wouldn't be sufficient to saturate the sand in his gourd.

I agree, I wish Gaara had a more variety of fights so we could avoid these kinds of sticky situations.


2)Chunin exams, He crushed two stooges trying to make him lose, then walked out to the arena and started fighting. I doubt very much it took more than a minute or two for him to get there.

We don't know the time lapse between when he killed them and when his fight with Sasuke started. We don't even know if he even had his sand absorb any blood or if he was talking metaphorically.


3) Im pretty sure a gourd full of sand filled with the blood of two people would take longer than 5 minutes to dry. Thats a LOT of blood.

I covered this further up in this post.


As for no reason to keep the fight at the beach, he also has no reason to LEAVE the beach area. Sure croc would likely head inland as fast as he could, but that defeats the whole purpose of putting the fight scene at a beach in the first place. Generally, the whole point of stating a battleground for these vs matches is to show where the fight will take place, not just where it would start.

Because Gaara has no reason to follow someone he's in combat with? You want to use that argument? That he'd stay stationary the whole fight and let his foe dictate the distance between them?

Battlegrounds just denote a starting area. Nothing logically keeps the characters in question staying at that starting area unless they have some actual reason to not leave the initial environment. This fight has no such reason since Gaara does not know Crocodile is weak against water, especially sea water. So rigidly enforcing the fight can only happen at the beach is just another attempt to handicap Crocodile to give Gaara a chance and the ruins the whole point. How's it a real VS. match if you have to keep making stipulations to handicap one opponent to give the other opponent even a chance?[/QUOTE]

[Mystic Muse]

How's it a real VS. match if you have to keep making stipulations to handicap one opponent to give the other opponent even a chance?

Because the entire point of a VS. Match is that it should be possible for each side to win? Which is why you don't have things like Gaara vs. a first level commoner or Pinkie Pie vs. Samus Destroyer of worlds.

[Tanuki Tales]

Because the entire point of a VS. Match is that it should be possible for each side to win? Which is why you don't have things like Gaara vs. a first level commoner or Pinkie Pie vs. Samus Destroyer of worlds.

No, the point of a Vs. match is to have a debate over the outcome of a hypothetical fight. It's just poor taste to make one that is unequal and it becomes pointless and a farce if you need heavy stipulation application to make it a fair fight for the two.

[Mystic Muse]

No, the point of a Vs. match is to have a debate over the outcome of a hypothetical fight. It's just poor taste to make one that is unequal.

As has been shown, even the terrain can make the difference between a clear win and the other opponent at least having a chance. Crocodile is completely unbeatable if you don't have some way to get him wet. Given that the ninja's in the naruto-verse have no way to know about the devil fruit, or Crocodile's weakness to water, this fight needs to take place on the beach for Gaara to stand a chance.

[Traab]

Battlegrounds just denote a starting area. Nothing logically keeps the characters in question staying at that starting area unless they have some actual reason to not leave the initial environment. This fight has no such reason since Gaara does not know Crocodile is weak against water, especially sea water. So rigidly enforcing the fight can only happen at the beach is just another attempt to handicap Crocodile to give Gaara a chance and the ruins the whole point. How's it a real VS. match if you have to keep making stipulations to handicap one opponent to give the other opponent even a chance?[/QUOTE]

I dont know, how can it be a real versus match when you are trying your hardest to claim that there is no way for one opponent to exploit the others weakness when there is no proof that is the case? You have no canon evidence that suggests garra cant use wet sand. You have no evidence that garra is so stupid that he couldnt figure it out. I mean, first you claim he is post shippuden garra so you can claim he doesnt have shukakku or potentially bloody sand, (That second part I agree was way too much of a stretch btw) then you turn around and quote his genin level tactics as "proof" he doesnt have the knowledge of strategy and tactics to fight croc and figure out his weakness. He is the freaking kazekage! He had BETTER be smarter than he was as a genin if he is going to be capable of running a village with a better style than, "Do as I say or ill feed you to my sand."

As for setting the battle on the beach and expecting it to stay there, its simple. If there ISNT a source of water, then it isnt possible for croc to ever lose. Thus, there would be no point in even HAVING the topic. It would be like writing up the challenge as "Croc versus The Second Hokage." Its a stupidly pointless matchup since the guy is lord of the water attacks and could probably bury croc under a tidal wave in the middle of the desert.

[Tanuki Tales]

As has been shown, even the terrain can make the difference between a clear win and the other opponent at least having a chance. Crocodile is completely unbeatable if you don't have some way to get him wet. Given that the ninja's in the naruto-verse have no way to know about the devil fruit, or Crocodile's weakness to water, this fight needs to take place on the beach for Gaara to stand a chance.

Case in point. Gaara needs a handicap so this fight isn't a roflcurbstomp, a handicap that he has no way of significantly utilizing without adding two other handicaps (knowledge of Crocodile's weakness at the get go and rigidly keeping the fight only able to occur at the beach). How many more handicaps will it take for Gaara to significantly win and at what point will the fight stop being a fight and start being a farce?

Donatello from Ninja Turtles could beat Superman if he had the Infinity Gauntlet, but would that really be anything but a farce?

@Traab:


I dont know, how can it be a real versus match when you are trying your hardest to claim that there is no way for one opponent to exploit the others weakness when there is no proof that is the case? You have no canon evidence that suggests garra cant use wet sand.

There is no evidence at all. So the burden of proof is still on the Gaara side to prove he can do this feat. But, I'll reiterate, it's neither important or a point I wouldn't be willing to concede. It gives Gaara no advantage.


You have no evidence that garra is so stupid that he couldnt figure it out. I mean, first you claim he is post shippuden garra so you can claim he doesnt have shukakku or potentially bloody sand, (That second part I agree was way too much of a stretch btw) then you turn around and quote his genin level tactics as "proof" he doesnt have the knowledge of strategy and tactics to fight croc and figure out his weakness. He is the freaking kazekage! He had BETTER be smarter than he was as a genin if he is going to be capable of running a village with a better style than, "Do as I say or ill feed you to my sand."

Except we do have proof. In every single one of his fights he has used brute force to try and kill/maim/subdue his opponent. He has never shown any kind of subtly in his combat style and actual subtle opponents, like Deidara, have exploited his combat style and either actually defeated him or nearly defeated him. Characters who have used brute force approaches, like Sasuke or Lee or Kimimaro, have nearly defeated him; two out of the three didn't defeat him because of dues ex machina and one just got unlucky.

Except his tactics haven't changed since his time as a genin, they've just gotten less aggressive. And isn't it obvious that Gaara became Kazekage because he was the most powerful Shinobi that the Sand village had at the time? Add in the fact that he was the son of the previous dictatorial leader and had previously been feared and used as a puppet figure/weapon for the village and it's obvious why they put him in charge.



As for setting the battle on the beach and expecting it to stay there, its simple. If there ISNT a source of water, then it isnt possible for croc to ever lose. Thus, there would be no point in even HAVING the topic. It would be like writing up the challenge as "Croc versus The Second Hokage." Its a stupidly pointless matchup since the guy is lord of the water attacks and could probably bury croc under a tidal wave in the middle of the desert.

Then where do we have a fight if PIS, aka Plot Induced Stupidity, is even required for this thread? You'd have to admit that you would have to impose limitations on both characters, changing how they would actually fight and react to this situation, thus cheapening the concept as a whole or you have to admit Gaara can't win.

[Traab]

Then where do we have a fight if PIS, aka Plot Induced Stupidity, is even required for this thread? You'd have to admit that you would have to impose limitations on both characters, changing how they would actually fight and react to this situation, thus cheapening the concept as a whole or you have to admit Gaara can't win.

Except it isnt a limitation. Its just a single aspect of the battle thats required to make the fight even possibly a fight. Garra might not figure it out in time, he might not be able to do enough damage with his wet sand. Its not like we are tying his hand behind his back, and limitations are common in this type of thread. Everything from picking which specific version of a comic book character can be used, to what stage of their career they are in. Things like battlefields especially are chosen specifically to counter some sort of crippling imbalance.

For example, the batman/achilles matchup. Putting the fight in the middle of gotham would create a huge advantage for batman as he knows the terrain, wouldnt be freaked out by a modern setting and everything that goes with it, and all the other pluses for it being there. This battlefield choice was only done because the fight is entirely pointless against anyone that doesnt have water abilities unless there is a source of water nearby. Just like doing a superman versus pretty much anyone below or at the level of darkseid without allowing kryptonite on the field is pointless.

Allowing for a battlefield that has water available doesnt make it a farce. Hell, im pretty sure you already pointed it out yourself, even against a guy who knew his weakness ahead of time, was exploiting it, and when croc was in the middle of a meltdown, it was STILL a really tough fight. And it being on a beach is the ONLY handicap, aside from the equal handicap of neither being able to control the others sand.

[Tanuki Tales]

The problem is Traab, that the Gaara side of this has been using Gaara being on the beach as a major reason for him winning a majority of the time. I'm not saying you specifically, but some people have voiced that opinion. So without religiously holding to the beach as being the only valid zone of combat without Gaara or Crocodile having a reason to actually stay there, a chunk of the pro-Gaara arguments hold no, mind the pun, water.

[Traab]

Ok I can see that, and I feel that being on the beach is in no way a walk in the park win for garra. Hell, Even giving garra the knowledge of crocs weakness from the start it isnt enough to give him the win, and yeah, I agree, THAT would be a baseless handicap. As far as staying on the battlefield is concerned, so many of these beings in the versus matches are capable of leaving at any time they wish and going somewhere else, that its generally just implied that they cant leave the area otherwise there is no point in even bothering mentioning a battleground. Think of it as being the Thunderdome. "Two men enter, one man leaves."

[Tanuki Tales]

Ok I can see that, and I feel that being on the beach is in no way a walk in the park win for garra. Hell, Even giving garra the knowledge of crocs weakness from the start it isnt enough to give him the win, and yeah, I agree, THAT would be a baseless handicap. As far as staying on the battlefield is concerned, so many of these beings in the versus matches are capable of leaving at any time they wish and going somewhere else, that its generally just implied that they cant leave the area otherwise there is no point in even bothering mentioning a battleground. Think of it as being the Thunderdome. "Two men enter, one man leaves."

I think arguing about the battlefield may also be pointless in the end and another point I'm willing to concede since it is a major diving point neither side may agree on and in the end may not matter to a huge degree.

Do you agree then that Crocodile would win this match up for the majority?

[Traab]

I think croc has the overall advantage, water or not. There are just a couple sticking points that could swing things the other way. First off, you mention how garra exhausted himself blocking that village wide explosive and how crocs hits would be equally as powerful, or something along those lines right? The issue with that is, garra exhausted himself because he was shielding the ENTIRE village at once. I bet if deidara had aimed all that explosive directly at him, he could have weathered it and not been worn to the bone. So I feel that lends some doubt as to croc being able to basically obliterate garras sand defenses in short order. Maybe he could, maybe he couldnt. Im sure in a straight out slugging match garra would be worn down way faster than croc would, im just saying it would likely take more than 1-2 solid hits.

The other point is how garra would attack croc. Working under the assumption that he figures out the water effect AND is able to use it, he likely would go for a regular sand burial with wet sand, then when that fails, go for the imperial burial like the kimmimaru fight. Both would fail because if luffi, who has WAY more crushing damage potential than garras sand imo, couldnt easily punch him down, I doubt garras sand could. After that, I think he would ignore the blunt trauma and go for piercing attacks. Luffi had a hard time because he was trying to blunt force trauma croc into the ground, but piercing attacks would be likely far more effective. I mean sure you CAN bruise a man to death, but puncturing him till he dies would likely be easier and faster.

All that being said, I still think garra would most likely lose. There is just too much likely time for croc to do his damage before garra would even have a chance to figure his weakness out. I think croc has the raw power advantage, and I dont think garra could do enough in return to win.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think croc has the overall advantage, water or not. There are just a couple sticking points that could swing things the other way. First off, you mention how garra exhausted himself blocking that village wide explosive and how crocs hits would be equally as powerful, or something along those lines right? The issue with that is, garra exhausted himself because he was shielding the ENTIRE village at once. I bet if deidara had aimed all that explosive directly at him, he could have weathered it and not been worn to the bone. So I feel that lends some doubt as to croc being able to basically obliterate garras sand defenses in short order. Maybe he could, maybe he couldnt. Im sure in a straight out slugging match garra would be worn down way faster than croc would, im just saying it would likely take more than 1-2 solid hits.

Well, I personally never said it would exhaust him. I merely mentioned that Gaara's basic defenses wouldn't weather Crocodile's assaults and the only defenses that he's shown stronger was said Village buster protector. Crocodile has shown devastating slicing techniques more powerful than Chidori or Kimimaro's bone attacks, his Sables is basically a miniature storm and can crack steel and his moisture absorption is without a doubt one of his most overpowered abilities.


The other point is how garra would attack croc. Working under the assumption that he figures out the water effect AND is able to use it, he likely would go for a regular sand burial with wet sand, then when that fails, go for the imperial burial like the kimmimaru fight. Both would fail because if luffi, who has WAY more crushing damage potential than garras sand imo, couldnt easily punch him down, I doubt garras sand could. After that, I think he would ignore the blunt trauma and go for piercing attacks. Luffi had a hard time because he was trying to blunt force trauma croc into the ground, but piercing attacks would be likely far more effective. I mean sure you CAN bruise a man to death, but puncturing him till he dies would likely be easier and faster.

But that relies on him figuring it out and being able to catch Crocodile. Both very unlikely things (the first more than the second).


All that being said, I still think garra would most likely lose. There is just too much likely time for croc to do his damage before garra would even have a chance to figure his weakness out. I think croc has the raw power advantage, and I dont think garra could do enough in return to win.

Definitely. Like I've been saying, I don't think little of Gaara. He's a powerful opponent who would be a nasty match up for a lot of different characters and has a lot of devastating potential. I just doubt he could beat any Shichibukai or Admiral level opponent who has the powers of a Logia class fruit.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Gaara is carrying around 282 GALLONS of sand. A gallon of sand weighs 12.5 lbs.

He's carrying more then a Ton on his back. Yeah, Gaara's pretty damn frail.

[BlackDragonKing]

Gaara is carrying around 282 GALLONS of sand. A gallon of sand weighs 12.5 lbs.

He's carrying more then a Ton on his back. Yeah, Gaara's pretty damn frail.

Gaara can make sand levitate, wouldn't it be relatively simple for him to just "carry" it that way? He clearly crumples HARD when he takes a hit with no defenses, the only trick is he's always got defenses up.

[Tanuki Tales]

Gaara is carrying around 282 GALLONS of sand. A gallon of sand weighs 12.5 lbs.

He's carrying more then a Ton on his back. Yeah, Gaara's pretty damn frail.

That was only the volume of his Gourd. We have no idea exactly how much sand is in his gourd at any given point of time.

Not that it really matters aside from speculation on his possible physical strength; I just brought it up to explain the possible blood to sand ratio.

[DiscipleofBob]

So the general consensus is Crocodile would win, if only because his abilities are hax, unless the battle was at a beach or somewhere with a decent supply of water, at which point Gaara would stand a slight chance, but Crocodile still has the upper hand.

In order for Crocodile to win, he'd have to somehow have to infiltrate Gaara's sand shield (possible, but not guaranteed) and finish him off quickly, or just wear Gaara down long enough for his chakra to run out (most likely).

In order for Gaara to win, the battle would have to be near a decent source of water (not guaranteed), Gaara would have to be able to discover Crocodile's weakness (not guaranteed), which would put the two on somewhat equal footing. Once his weakness was discovered Gaara would have to finish off Crocodile before Crocodile either relocates the battle or Crocodile finishes Gaara off (very not guaranteed), and from there Gaara would basically have to rely on the underdog-plot-advantage in order to win.

So 9 times out of 10, Crocodile wins, but under specific circumstances Gaara might be able to pull an underdog victory.

[BlackDragonKing]

So the general consensus is Crocodile would win, if only because his abilities are hax, unless the battle was at a beach or somewhere with a decent supply of water, at which point Gaara would stand a slight chance, but Crocodile still has the upper hand.

In order for Crocodile to win, he'd have to somehow have to infiltrate Gaara's sand shield (possible, but not guaranteed) and finish him off quickly, or just wear Gaara down long enough for his chakra to run out (most likely).

In order for Gaara to win, the battle would have to be near a decent source of water (not guaranteed), Gaara would have to be able to discover Crocodile's weakness (not guaranteed), which would put the two on somewhat equal footing. Once his weakness was discovered Gaara would have to finish off Crocodile before Crocodile either relocates the battle or Crocodile finishes Gaara off (very not guaranteed), and from there Gaara would basically have to rely on the underdog-plot-advantage in order to win.

So 9 times out of 10, Crocodile wins, but under specific circumstances Gaara might be able to pull an underdog victory.

Crocodile could also just outright power through Gaara's sand shield; it's been mentioned here a few times that we're considering Gaara's ability an earth jutsu, which means it loses to

A. Wind Jutsu
B. Powerful Earth Attacks

Given how absurdly abusive Desert Spada is to the ground and everything it touches, I'd suggest Desert Spada could outright break Gaara's defenses open unless he busts out his ultimate thing immediately every time Croc uses it.

[Mikeavelli]

People here are consistently underestimating Gaara's sand control abilities. He's consistently been shown to use abilities in a completely different league than Crocodile.

Where Crocodile splits open fissures in the Earth, Gaara turns the entire battlefield into sand tsunamis that drag his opponent underground.

Where Crocodile summons sand whirlwinds, Gaara sends enough sand into the air to cover an entire village and tank a village-destroying bomb.

Where Crocodile sucks the moisture out of everything he touches, Gaara... Flies.

Gaara is unquestionably possessed of more raw power than Crocodile, that's his thing, that's what he does.

If (yes, big if) Gaara figures out Crocodile's weakness, Gaara wins. If he can't, Gaara loses, because Croc can simply outlast him.

Will he figure it out? At a beach, probably yes, Gaara tends to start off with some gigantic battlefield-altering Jutsu, which (since it's a beach) will involve some amount of wet sand. Even a straightforward ninja like Gaara is bright enough to notice Crocodile only taking hits from wet sand, or specifically avoiding it.

[Kato]

Mind you, this is rough math and is mostly eyeballing, but it looks like the top sphere of Gaara's gourd is 2 feet wide while the bottom on is 4 feet. So, ignoring the divider, finding the volume of the 2 spheres and converting cubic feet to gallons then his gourd should hold somewhere around 282 gallons of sand.

And yes, the ratio does matter. There is about 10 pints of blood in the human body and a gallon is about 8 pints. So even if Gaara had absorbed all the blood from the two shinobi (which he obviously hadn't), it wouldn't be sufficient to saturate the sand in his gourd.


You know, this is totally off-topic but I'm always... well, let's say amazed by how you guys get around without using a system of lengths and weights that makes any sense :smalltongue: Go, metric system! :smallbiggrin: *runs*

[Traab]

You know, this is totally off-topic but I'm always... well, let's say amazed by how you guys get around without using a system of lengths and weights that makes any sense :smalltongue: Go, metric system! :smallbiggrin: *runs*

Bah, metric is for people too simple to understand real numbers.

[DiscipleofBob]

People here are consistently underestimating Gaara's sand control abilities. He's consistently been shown to use abilities in a completely different league than Crocodile.

Where Crocodile splits open fissures in the Earth, Gaara turns the entire battlefield into sand tsunamis that drag his opponent underground.

Crocodile does that too.


Where Crocodile summons sand whirlwinds, Gaara sends enough sand into the air to cover an entire village and tank a village-destroying bomb.


While Crocodile hasn't explicitly done this in the series, I see no reason he couldn't.


Where Crocodile sucks the moisture out of everything he touches, Gaara... Flies.

Okay, two things. First of all, to me the first ability is far more impressive. In today's media market flying is something tacked onto about half of all superhumans. Secondly, Crocodile can fly in sand mode too.


Gaara is unquestionably possessed of more raw power than Crocodile, that's his thing, that's what he does.

Um... no. If anything they're about equal in the raw power department, it's just that Gaara uses a brute force strategy while Crocodile strategizes.


If (yes, big if) Gaara figures out Crocodile's weakness, Gaara wins. If he can't, Gaara loses, because Croc can simply outlast him.

Correction. If Gaara figures out Crocodile's weakness, it puts them at somewhat equal footing.


Will he figure it out? At a beach, probably yes, Gaara tends to start off with some gigantic battlefield-altering Jutsu, which (since it's a beach) will involve some amount of wet sand. Even a straightforward ninja like Gaara is bright enough to notice Crocodile only taking hits from wet sand, or specifically avoiding it.

No arguments here.

To be perfectly clear here:

The Pro-Crocodile side (at least most of us from what I can tell) are not arguing that Gaara and Crocodile are either stronger or weaker than each other. They both exhibit exemplary control over sand and high power levels. The only difference is that takes a great deal of effort and an unnecessary field handicap on Crocodile's part just for Gaara to even hurt Crocodile, so he's at a disadvantage.

[Tanuki Tales]

And Gaara isn't likely to find out Crocodile's weakness anyways. He's a proven brute force attacker who doesn't show much strategy or subtly in his combat repertoire. Crocodile on the other hand is a consummate chessmaster who has shown a brilliant intellect to supplement his devastating combat ability.

I also never personally underestimated Gaara's sand control; it just doesn't matter for this fight. This fight boils down to can Gaara consistently tank Crocodile? With his standard defenses, the answer is no. So then it becomes, does Gaara have the speed and chakra reserves to tank Crocodile with more powerful defensive techniques while attempting to discover and exploit Crocodile's one weakness? The answer is that it's highly unlikely.

And why do people keep saying that "Gaara can fly" completely negates Crocodile's moisture absorption? Because it doesn't; it just means Crocodile would need to get in close quarters to pull it off and that's really no problem. What negates it is Gaara's Suna no Tate not being in contact with Gaara and Crocodile not being able to get around it.

[Coidzor]

Crocodile could also just outright power through Gaara's sand shield; it's been mentioned here a few times that we're considering Gaara's ability an earth jutsu, which means it loses to

A. Wind Jutsu
B. Powerful Earth Attacks

His sand won't melt from sufficiently hot conditions to glass ordinary sand or become useless given a sufficient quantity of water flooding it? :smallconfused:

[Tanuki Tales]

His sand won't melt from sufficiently hot conditions to glass ordinary sand or become useless given a sufficient quantity of water flooding it? :smallconfused:

The first probably didn't happen so that Sasuke wouldn't keep being the overpowered Justin Beiber of Naruto. So no, sufficient heat doesn't glass his sand.

[Traab]

The first probably didn't happen so that Sasuke wouldn't keep being the overpowered Justin Beiber of Naruto. So no, sufficient heat doesn't glass his sand.
Even if it does, it wont glass ALL of his sand, and he can just grind it back into sand seconds later.

[BlackDragonKing]

His sand won't melt from sufficiently hot conditions to glass ordinary sand or become useless given a sufficient quantity of water flooding it? :smallconfused:

Given that it tanked the most powerful flame known to man with no visible side effects, I don't think that's the case.

Granted, the claim Amaterasu flames are as hot as the sun is a blatant lie and heat clearly doesn't exist in the Naruto universe, but still...

[Tanuki Tales]

Given that it tanked the most powerful flame known to man with no visible side effects, I don't think that's the case.

Granted, the claim Amaterasu flames are as hot as the sun is a blatant lie and heat clearly doesn't exist in the Naruto universe, but still...

Or that Gaara's Hax Plot Armor is bigger than Sasuke's... :smallbiggrin: