PDA

View Full Version : Post apocalyptic currency ideads



Stevielash
2011-05-18, 04:43 PM
Hey Playground, Im currnently formulating a post apocalyptic campaign, likely with gurps 3rd ed as the system and was wondering if anybody had interesting currency suggestions. Assume a world similar to fallout but with less radioactive menace.

The only information I can offer in regards to the setting is that it would be an alternate world to earth with different geographies cultures ect. Probably black powder tech levels mainly with some "artifacts", thanks in advance :smallsmile:.

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-18, 04:49 PM
Well, aside from trade goods, there won't be any use for legal tender, assuming the apocalypse destroyed all organizations that might recognize and endorse it. In its absence, there are other ways to signify wealth and power over others. Fallout had bottlecaps, for example. You could use bottlecaps as well, but not caps from soda bottles. Instead, go for water bottles. It implies that whoever held them either has water or can be connected through trade to someone who does. If you can find someone with clean water, you can then exchange the caps for actual water.

So the idea is totally stolen from Deathgate Cycle books, but it still works for a world with precious little water.

Stevielash
2011-05-18, 04:56 PM
Thats a pretty good idea, could be tied in with some Dune-esque elements regarding the value of water, maybe even some kind of water venerating cult and bases built around pure water sources.
Thanks for the response

Totally Guy
2011-05-18, 05:06 PM
I bet condoms would become pretty valuable. They expire, you can't make more of them and everyone wants them. Plus they are portable.

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-18, 05:12 PM
I bet condoms would become pretty valuable. They expire, you can't make more of them and everyone wants them. Plus they are portable.

There are actually condoms in Fallout 2. The problem is that they don't sell for much. Apparently overpopulation is not as big a problem as it used to be. :smalltongue:

Eldest
2011-05-18, 05:18 PM
One problem with water bottle caps is that they aren't durable. Especialy in a post... massive problem world [can't spell], you need to be able to lug around your money and have it survive. The water bottles would be good for "high denomination" currency if you really want it. Condums wouldn't work because in that sort of world you want kids. You'd be back to a labor based agricultural world, so Joe the farmer (being a lazy bum) wants people to do some of his work for him, so he would have lots of kids.
Bit off topic there...
If you have a big country, you could have them minting new coins. Bottlecaps actual work too. Any coinlike object, basicaly. They are durable, simple, rare enough to work as a currency while being commen enough to be exchanged throught everywhere.

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-18, 05:20 PM
One problem with water bottle caps is that they aren't durable.

Neither is paper money!

Eldest
2011-05-18, 05:46 PM
Yes, but in a civilized world
1. We don't have to deal with our money being set on fire every once in a while
2. We can afford to put in contermesures against conterfiting
3. We can afford to use our paper to print money, period

Oracle_Hunter
2011-05-18, 06:15 PM
Currency in a post-apocalyptic setting requires three things:

(1) Sufficient social cohesion to settle on a standardized currency
(2) Sufficient production to make stockpiling value worthwhile
(3) A substance that is durable, of low intrinsic use, and in limited supply.

If you have the first two covered, then the third can be anything that fits that definition. "Bottle caps" work reasonably well, but so do gold coins, gem stones, etc.

Kaun
2011-05-18, 06:31 PM
Maybe like long life protein bars?

They are relativly small and light and as long as they are still edible they maintaine value.

Fuel maybe?

Cigarettes?

If you want to avoid a pure batter system (which i can understand because it can be a nightmare for a GM) you sought of need to ignore logic/reality to a certain extent. I say this because with out a power body there to guarantee its value coin like currency wont work unless it has a non currency use.

Theoretically gold should still have value as long as food isnt in dire short supplies.

CockroachTeaParty
2011-05-18, 06:34 PM
I always thought marbles would make a good post-apoc currency. They're small, durable, pretty, and would be hard to make without giant ovens and crushed glass.

Enix18
2011-05-18, 06:47 PM
Logically, the most sensible currency would be no currency at all. Assuming the world has not begun to rebuild to the point where a functioning, interconnected society exists with an active mercantile system, there is really no need for any sort of money. Most business would likely be done through trade and bartering, as it was in the days of old. To someone living out in a blasted wasteland, little circular disks of metal mean nothing—food, water, fuel, tools, etcetera would all be significantly more valuable, although none of them would make sense as legal tender.

I think a system based purely on barter would actually be really interesting for such a setting. Whether or not the players can buy that weapon, or stock up on those vital supplies, doesn't depend on how much money they've amassed, but what they have to give up that the other person wants. In the wrong place, at the wrong time, it might cost an arm and a leg just to get enough potatoes to make it the next few miles without starving.

Of course, if you don't like dealing with complicated systems this may not be such a great idea. I think it's definitely worth trying, though.

mathemagician
2011-05-18, 07:05 PM
Post apocalyptic to me implies that there was sufficient cultural advance at some point to establish currency, and have it be well spread before the doomsday.

That knowledge will not be forgotten by the survivors, so a barter system with a currency stand in makes sense.

I agree with the three basic things Oracle_Hunter posted, except it may not need to be of low intrinsic use. Water bottle caps have been mentioned a few times, but if water is now a scarce resource in the few remaining defensible settlements, it could also serve as a stand in. In Darksun, water is essentially currency, because everyone needs it but it is in regulated supply.

Augmented barter systems come up in the strangest places. The one I most recently encountered was in Team Fortress 2, of all places. I got this stupid idea that I wanted to get a friend an "Unusual medic hat" as a gift. These are rare to start with, so you usually need an unusual hat yourself to get into the trading game. But once you're into the trading game, you find out that all sorts of other items that were only distributed for a limited time serve as currency to the community, at the rate "1 max's severed head = 4 earbuds" with the lower level rare hats clocking in at a value of 1 max's severed head, or $100. It's a pretty stable system because the community agreed on it. It's just bizarre :)


Back to your question though: water might work (especially when they encounter a river and can't take it home :) ), ammunition if it is no longer produced, perhaps old batteries could work. Anything of limited quantity that can be stockpiled "forever," and can be utilized in everyone's personal life, should be valuable.

Eldest
2011-05-18, 07:35 PM
Seconding marbles. Althoughif you think bottles of water would work, that's fine too. Or have a marble (or whatever currency you use) be worth one bottle of water, same way a dollar was backed by X amound of gold. Best of both worlds.

Randel
2011-05-18, 08:50 PM
You can google "post-apocolyptic currency" and get some lists of things. The general concensus is that after the end when society collapses then it will mostly be a barter economy where people trade in goods.

1). Food and water. canned goods and other things with a long shelf life will be useful as a currency since you could potentially stock up on cans of soup or tuna until the expiration date hits. Fresh meat and vegetables would be useful as well.

Grains and things like potatoes are good because they can keep for a while without using perservatives. The Japanese had a currency a while ago that was based on rice and other ancient countries used tea bricks as a sort of currency (where the value was based on the quality of the tea). Boiling water to make tea also kills germs in it and the tea provided vitamins.

2). Medicine

3). animal hides.

4). bullets. This right here would be a big one. I know everyone who can use a gun would want bullets so the people who are friends with them could give them bullets to protect them. I suppose a bullet economy would have its disadvantages and quirks but I'm sure it would be a helluva lot better than using bottlecaps or shiny rocks.

Or they could mostly use bullet shells. Making the bullet shell would be harder than making the lead part of the bullet, so after someone fires their bullet they collect the empty shells. Then they trade them to merchants who eventually trade the shells to someone who can load the shell up with new gunpowder, primer, and lead. Then the bullet gets sold to a merchant or whoever.


Keep in mind that someone could potentially start printing their own cpaper currency or coins as long as they have something to back it up with. If the Empire of Potatoe Farmers can grow potatoes in plentiful supply they can print out tokens to trade with people on the understanding that the token can be redeemed for a set quantity of potatoe at virtually any time. They are thus trading in potatoes but use the currency as a convenient way for other people to to business without carrying spuds everywhere.

Edit: here (http://ww2.zombieinitiative.org/node/4023) is one of the pages I found that lists interesting stuff.

JonestheSpy
2011-05-18, 10:29 PM
Keep in mind that someone could potentially start printing their own cpaper currency or coins as long as they have something to back it up with. If the Empire of Potatoe Farmers can grow potatoes in plentiful supply they can print out tokens to trade with people on the understanding that the token can be redeemed for a set quantity of potatoe at virtually any time. They are thus trading in potatoes but use the currency as a convenient way for other people to to business without carrying spuds everywhere.

I was going to suggest something like this. If you want to get into it and not just have a convenient stand-in for dollars or gold pieces, you can have some very interesting scenarios going on with folks creating their own money. Up until fairly recently (19th century) banks would print and issue their own money, and it's value would rise and fall depending on people's faith in the bank. In a Post-Apox world, it would definitely need to be backed up by something concrete, but you could still have competing currencies. If there's a grape grower near the Empire of Potatoes, they might be issuing their own Vinodollars that compete with the Spudbucks.

A Gm can have lots of fun with this. 'That merchant has got all the potatoes he wants, so gives a much better price if you pay with Vinodollars.' And of course if the players end up in control of a resource, such as a pure well or a storage vault of antibiotics, they could issue their own money. Guess what happens if there's a counterfeiter or they otherwise issue more currency than they can redeem?

Kirgoth
2011-05-18, 10:35 PM
Vodka
Petrol
Guns

JonestheSpy
2011-05-18, 10:37 PM
Vodka
Petrol
Guns

I sure as heck wouldn't trade any of those away if I was left standing after the Big One dropped.

Necro_EX
2011-05-18, 11:04 PM
The post-apocalyptic game I'm running uses mostly bartering for the exchange of goods, since governments were completely obliterated. There are some start-up governments that might try to push their own currency, but it likely won't have any value outside their territories.

I've found bartering works pretty well. The party could always find things that have value to other people but might not be worth carrying in bulk with themselves like scrap metal, spent casings, cigarettes, extra canteens, tires, paper, bullets that don't match their weapons, melee weapons, all sorts of things that they could trade for things they might need. I'm really digging how this works because it keeps them from becoming ridiculously wealthy too easily like what happens in dnd because they can't just carry an infinite amount of wealth all the time, it's all in weighty objects and resources. Really helps keep that post-apocalyptic feel, I believe.

Izual
2011-05-19, 12:38 AM
Gold?

To tell you the truth, Every time I daydream about the inevitable zombie apocalypse, I always envision hardware supplies as being among the most valuable materials people might need. Wrenches, hammers, screwdrivers, drill bits, screws and rebars could come in handy to a denizen of the wastelands of anytown USA.

Really, metals of all kinds are going to be the most valued good after the End, they are very useful to the everyman and to specialists who repair or recreate pre-apocalypse items; a few tungsten machining tools could make you a made man if you could trade them to the right person.

Another very useful item in the future? Books. A holdout of survivors in the ruins of Detroit or Dallas might have had bad luck in not having any mechanics or plumbers surviving Armageddon with them, but if they could just break into a college library...

Scarey Nerd
2011-05-19, 01:08 AM
I agree that it should be of low intrinsic value. It's bad enough giving someone water to buy some fuel, but to then drink more water for survival, and therefore reducing your funds? Seems odd to me. I guess that would be why bottlecaps are used in Fallout. Perhaps subway ticket stubs or something?

TrappedDoor
2011-05-19, 01:36 AM
I'm backing up bullets. Amunition was what we used in our PA campaign after playing Metro 2033 and hearing currency being talked about in 1 horn or 3 horns and 15 rounds (A horn being the curved magazine from an AK-47) works well.

MightyTim
2011-05-19, 01:57 AM
The currency used is going to depend also on the 'type' of apocolypse that happened, as well as how far 'post' we are.

If zombies just took over the world last thursday, there's going to be no cohesive agreed upon system for exchange. A barter system is going to be all that exists because the people who are left are going to drastically differ in what they have and what they need.

The type of apocolypse will determine what kind of commodities are most valuable, and therefore what people will start horde. If it's zombies, bullets are going to be extremely valuable. If it's nuclear fallout, clean water might be the most important thing to have. Basically, it'll depend on the economics of the system. Whatever is the most 'valuable' thing for it's weight would likely become the default currency (assuming it can be divided into a small enough 'base' unit', and the single unit is not too heavy.)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is oil (or more likely, refined gasoline). Aside from bullets to keep the zombie hordes at bay, oil would be the most valuable thing to have.

Once things stabilize after a few years, I don't see why paper money wouldn't start to make a comeback. People are going to form communities and some sort of government again, and everyone will still remember the former value of the old money, so as long as there's an enforcement agency that can uphold it, I'd think paper money would return (if the world exists that long).

Scarey Nerd
2011-05-19, 02:26 AM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is oil (or more likely, refined gasoline). Aside from bullets to keep the zombie hordes at bay, oil would be the most valuable thing to have.


Vodka
Petrol
Guns

:smallwink:

ILM
2011-05-19, 03:39 AM
Bartering's the obvious option. The problem with currencies is that they should be in limited supply, renewable, and have a value that both parties agree on without discussion. Bottle caps, for instance, wouldn't work unless they still have working plastic factories after the apocalypse, because otherwise there's going to be an inevitable attrition of supply until the individual value of a bottlecap climbs so high that they stop being usable as a currency. Also, currencies with little intrinsic value, like a piece of paper or a bottlecap, are generally associated with somewhat evolved and stable societies, something a post-apocalyptic world is unlikely to be.

Mastikator
2011-05-19, 06:24 AM
Something that most people want tends to become a currency. For example, in WW1 cigarettes became a currency because nearly everyone smoked, and those that didn't had no trouble finding someone who did want cigarettes.

In post-apoc world food and water is probably something that everyone wants. Same with guns and bullets.
It would take a while until precious metals would become precious again.

Dr.Epic
2011-05-19, 06:43 AM
There's always bartering in that most forms of currency would be limited to the small isolated towns and outside money might not work well.

Gnoman
2011-05-19, 06:47 AM
TBH, modern fiat currency would not be as useless as you would assume, at least for a long while. Large quantities would continue to exist for quite some time (especially coins), it's convienintly denominated, and it would be nearly impossoble to reproduce. While the idea of fiat money having intrinsic value seems backwards, the limited but sufficient supply would, in fact, make it every bit as (or more) "practical" a currency as gold, ring pulls, bottle caps, or any similar item yet suggested, especially since people aren't likely to go Shiny Yellow Rocks immediately after the end. To us, a green picture of George Washington with 1s in the corners (or local equivalent thereof) is money, and if Washington (or local equivalent thereof) went poof, most people would still se it and think "money."

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-19, 06:53 AM
TBH, modern fiat currency would not be as useless as you would assume, at least for a long while. Large quantities would continue to exist for quite some time (especially coins), it's convienintly denominated, and it would be nearly impossoble to reproduce. While the idea of fiat money having intrinsic value seems backwards, the limited but sufficient supply would, in fact, make it every bit as (or more) "practical" a currency as gold, ring pulls, bottle caps, or any similar item yet suggested, especially since people aren't likely to go Shiny Yellow Rocks immediately after the end. To us, a green picture of George Washington with 1s in the corners (or local equivalent thereof) is money, and if Washington (or local equivalent thereof) went poof, most people would still se it and think "money."

Well, Americans would. The good part about legal tender is that it is, well, legally accepted, and internationally binding. If the current civilization suddenly goes poof, Americans who survived the event might still use the dollars, out of habit, but it is no longer legally binding. If I wanted to exchange my dollars for liras, for example, I would be out of luck, because there is no organization that backs the value of dollars up anymore. And after a generation or two, few people still alive would consider it has any value. And since this is supposed to be like Fallout, I am assuming it is several generations after the fact.

GolemsVoice
2011-05-19, 07:01 AM
How about "luxury goods", like tobacco, cigarettes, alcohole and non-essential food? Depending on how advanced you society is, more refined luxury goods won't be produced anymore. So you may have cheap whiskey or a tasteless cigarette, but none of the good stuff. Yet it still worth something, because it offers a rarely found delight. A "rich" person could be someone who can afford to have good meals often. He could also hire more and better mercenaries, and allow them to live the good life in exchange for protecting him, etc.. Of course, no item would have a fixed value, but generally, the rarer something is, the more prcious it gets. Pre-war cigarettes might not be worth much, but a bottle of really find brandy, or a box of chocolate candy that is still good might be worth a much higher service.

Bogardan_Mage
2011-05-19, 07:25 AM
I agree that it should be of low intrinsic value. It's bad enough giving someone water to buy some fuel, but to then drink more water for survival, and therefore reducing your funds? Seems odd to me. I guess that would be why bottlecaps are used in Fallout. Perhaps subway ticket stubs or something?
Well if drinkable water is scarce you're reducing your funds by drinking it whether it's used as currency or not, because if you're still giving up the opportunity to trade it for whatever is used as currency (or barter it for other goods and services, if there is no currency).

If the currency has little or no intrinsic value, that raises the question of why it's currency at all. For a currency to exist with (effectively) no other value than as a medium of exchange, you'd require a reasonably developed system of commerce to exist. Your, shall we say, typical postapocalyptic setting of small isolated communities surviving in a harsh wasteland doesn't really have this. A little furthur down the track, with The Event far beyond living memory, say, it's more plausible. But by that point the currency could be whatever the local warlord fancies making a currency.

That said, I do think Gnoman has a point about preapocalyptic currency. One thing postapocalyptic societies have over ancient societies is they have an understanding (of sorts) about modern society. This includes an understanding of the utility of money, and possibly a desire to emulate the lost world by bringing back its features. If, for these reasons, they did decide to continue using currency rather than turn to a barter system, it makes sense that they'd continue using the currency they already had.

Gnoman
2011-05-19, 07:38 AM
Well, Americans would. The good part about legal tender is that it is, well, legally accepted, and internationally binding. If the current civilization suddenly goes poof, Americans who survived the event might still use the dollars, out of habit, but it is no longer legally binding. If I wanted to exchange my dollars for liras, for example, I would be out of luck, because there is no organization that backs the value of dollars up anymore. And after a generation or two, few people still alive would consider it has any value. And since this is supposed to be like Fallout, I am assuming it is several generations after the fact.

In a post apoc setting, the international excahnge is somewhat irrelevant. Like I said, not only would it iniially remain in use out of habit, after a few generations, every reason that gold or bottlecaps would be useful as currecy would apply to prewar money, and it would remain more useful because it's already denominated.

hamlet
2011-05-19, 07:48 AM
Plastic poker chips.

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-19, 07:54 AM
In a post apoc setting, the international excahnge is somewhat irrelevant. Like I said, not only would it iniially remain in use out of habit, after a few generations, every reason that gold or bottlecaps would be useful as currecy would apply to prewar money, and it would remain more useful because it's already denominated.

Why? Pre-apocalypse money has no use outside of being paper, and there is no powerful organization or person behind it giving it value. Gold has much more practical use, while water bottlecaps imply someone has access to precious water. Unless the person with the food and water has an eccentric interest in pre-apocalypse money, he'd much rather exchange what he has for either something that is worth something to him or backed up by someone with power (either himself or similar people who have water and food). And if you have water, you probably have water bottles, which have caps.

Talyn
2011-05-19, 08:26 AM
People who are looking at the Fallout model, where people use bottlecaps, should remember that bottlecaps are not valuable because people decided to trade them between themselves, they are valuablbe because the Water Merchant Guild declared that they would give away water for bottle caps - essentially creating a currency where previously it had been a pure barter system.

If you want some kind of fiat currency (which includes marbles, poker chips, bottle caps, nickels, or anything else you can't immediately use) you will want to create a powerful, quasi-governmental body which commands a good or service that people need, and have them be the ones who implement the currency.

If your apocalypse was sufficiently thorough that you don't have that, you are better off with something moderately lightweight, portable, and useful - bullets seem like your best bet.

J.Gellert
2011-05-19, 08:51 AM
Keep in mind that in a sufficiently devastated world, having any "currency" means that someone is willing and able to enforce its use (probably though violence).

The default is a barter system - the bullet salesman will sell you ammo for water and medicine. If you have "credits", their value is zero, unless everyone accepts them (so the bullet salesman can buy water with them).

Now if even a few people in this circle go "Nuh-huh, your credits don't hold here" you're pretty much screwed. Except when the big guy who created this currency has something to say about this..!

Unless of course your credits have inherent value - which really is similar to a barter system again, in the end. Say they are Unobtainium rocks that you found in the Wasteland (and only a few adventurers dare go there, so the crystals are sufficiently rare).

Which gives value to these things, roughly in order:
- Medicine
- Water / Food
- Weapons / Ammunition
- Transportation
- Scraps / Clothing

Gnoman
2011-05-19, 09:16 AM
Why? Pre-apocalypse money has no use outside of being paper, and there is no powerful organization or person behind it giving it value. Gold has much more practical use, while water bottlecaps imply someone has access to precious water. Unless the person with the food and water has an eccentric interest in pre-apocalypse money, he'd much rather exchange what he has for either something that is worth something to him or backed up by someone with power (either himself or similar people who have water and food). And if you have water, you probably have water bottles, which have caps.

Gold has zero practical use, outside of certain electrical functionality, which does not apply if technology is blasted by atomic war or other catastrophe.

ILM
2011-05-19, 09:20 AM
Gold has zero practical use, outside of certain electrical functionality, which does not apply if technology is blasted by atomic war or other catastrophe.
People were wearing ornate and elaborately-wrought jewelry literally thousands of years before the first lightbulb. Sure, you can't eat it, but there'll always be a market, and therefore it'll always hold value.

Saintheart
2011-05-19, 10:25 AM
Take a leaf out of Waterworld's book and make it dirt?

As in, dirt that hasn't been contaminated by radiation fallout and therefore can actually support some plantlife?

Stevielash
2011-05-19, 11:26 AM
Take a leaf out of Waterworld's book and make it dirt?

As in, dirt that hasn't been contaminated by radiation fallout and therefore can actually support some plantlife?

Thats a really abstract but intersting idea. Seems very impractical for transport though but this could lead to some intersting scenarios in itself

FelixG
2011-05-19, 11:35 AM
My two favorites are Water, and Ammo.

If Ammo is used as currency it is really Ka Ching if you decide to go all out, and could encourage other fighting styles'

And water is really good if you want to enforce dehidration and what not (ala Desert Punk)

Grendus
2011-05-19, 01:48 PM
A lot will come down to what the society in question needs. A farming community in a zombie apocalypse might be desperate for guns, but might could be so well stocked on grain they would flat refuse to trade for it. Meanwhile, the former military base could be set on guns and defenses, but would kill for something to eat besides old C-Rations. Down the road, the former CEO holed up in his bunker could be set for everything... but he could use a little company (if you know what I mean). And the tattered remnants of the old government might be good on everything except diplomatic relations with the other powers in the area.

Unfortunately, a lot of the value system comes down to what you decide during world gen. Some of this will vary depending on the type of apocalypse (food and water become valuable in a nuclear apocalypse, weapons are more highly valued in a zombie apocalypse, depending on the type of infection medicine would be valuable in a biological apocalypse), but generally speaking just ask yourself - what does this city need?







On the topic of currency, it would be quite likely that every group large enough to be called a city-state would have it's own form of currency. Once a band of survivors gets coordinated enough to have a central government, printing their own money would be the next logical step. How valuable that money is varies based on two key factors - how stable the government is and how dangerous the trip is. If a city is known for changing their currency every other week (former Soviet states, for example), their money is basically worthless outside the city walls. If they're incredibly stable (traditionally American money held it's value well, modern politics aside), the value probably won't change and may become a common medium for trade even outside it's borders. If getting to the city is almost impossible (bio-apocalypse, for example), nobody will care if you have 100,000,000,000 spud-bucks, they're worthless in Research-ville. If it's hazardous but doable (zombie apocalypse, un-nuked route in a nuclear-apocalypse), they may have a suitably reduced value but could still be traded. If it's a cakewalk (a quick, well protected route), the money may hold it's value well. Distance plays a factor here too, traveling ten days in a zombie apocalypse to redeem the money would be suicide, traveling an hour wouldn't be so bad.

randomhero00
2011-05-19, 01:59 PM
Sorry if this has been said...

no one would trust the promise of a printed note (i.e. dollar). So they'd either trade in weaponry or food. If it was really really advanced they might trade in exotic metals and wares (gold, silver, etc.) Whichever is more scarce and important (almost always food). Food is generally rice or wheat. Weaponry is usually gunpowder/explosives (depending on time) or actual weapons of the time, depending.

JonestheSpy
2011-05-19, 02:25 PM
So far I think cigarettes are the best suggestion if you want a currency that's not backed by a government or the Water Guild or whatever. It's a luxury item, so people would not have the same motivation for hoarding as they would for essentials like water, fuel, or ammo. I mean really, if you've only got 50 gallons of clean water and no guaranteed access to more, would you trade it away in anything other than life-threatening circumstances? At the same time, it's got more immediate use than gold or whatever - smokers get a lot of pleasure out of smoking, far more than staring at the shiny rock. And even if you don't smoke, you probably know plenty of people who do (cause come on, who worries about long-term health risks in a post-Apox world, anyway?).

randomhero00
2011-05-19, 02:33 PM
So far I think cigarettes are the best suggestion if you want a currency that's not backed by a government or the Water Guild or whatever. It's a luxury item, so people would not have the same motivation for hoarding as they would for essentials like water, fuel, or ammo. I mean really, if you've only got 50 gallons of clean water and no guaranteed access to more, would you trade it away in anything other than life-threatening circumstances? At the same time, it's got more immediate use than gold or whatever - smokers get a lot of pleasure out of smoking, far more than staring at the shiny rock. And even if you don't smoke, you probably know plenty of people who do (cause come on, who worries about long-term health risks in a post-Apox world, anyway?).

And equally I'd say, c'mon, who cares about a cigarette when you're trying to survive? The snipers see the glow... ;D

I could see some kind of drug as being the currency (maybe MJ) but not cigs.
They would only get scarcer and scarcer. Wheras MJ would remain about equal (B/C so many pot heads know how to grow it), plus there's all sorts of uses for hemp. Anyways its like you said, no one is trading something life saving for some crappy cigs.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-05-19, 03:47 PM
People realize the difference between currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency) and barter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter), right?

Cigarettes, water, and ammo are all items used in a Barter situation. They have no fixed value as mediums of exchange and are traded because of their usefulness.

Coins and caps are examples of Currency. They have no (or little) inherent use-value and are only accepted in exchange for goods and services because of the value in goods that they represent.

You can pretend that cigarettes or ammo have fixed value in some notional "dollar" system but that's not how they would really work in a post-apocalyptic situation. No farmer is going to trade his crops for cigarettes if he needs scrap metal to repair his roof; he would only trade his crops for ammunition if it was something he could use and he needed it more than he needed the potato.

Eldest
2011-05-19, 03:58 PM
So in a post apocalyptic world, either there is a body big enough to support currency or there is bartering. Since the OP asked about currency, let's drop the arguments for water/food. They are really only bartering things that everyone needs. Instead, come up with something that might work as coin/coin stand-ins.

GolemsVoice
2011-05-19, 04:41 PM
Well, I think if you work with coin stand-ins, it's basically just "these are dollars, but X", which is fun in it's own right, but in the end, you're just substituting paper and metals for, say, bone chips or little pieces of cloth. Imagining how an economy would work with a different system sound much more fun to me.


But now that I'm saying: Say, in cities with a strong presence of a certain gang, you get scraps of paper/cloth marked with the insignia of the gang. They tell everyone: "This person is trusted/has performed work for the gang". The shopkeepers would accept them, because the gang would enforce them, and because, inside the city, they themselves could use them to buy other stuff.

randomhero00
2011-05-19, 05:03 PM
Alright, how about ears? Yes, as morbidly as that sounds. Say they've had a problem with orc invasions for generations. You take their ears, give them to the "bank" for leatherfied (don't know the word....so they last and don't stink) ears and buy whatever. The brand new ears then go from the bank to the leather maker dude (sorry about loss of official names). And of course each of them would make a small profit all the while getting rid of their enemy.

Joran
2011-05-19, 05:38 PM
But now that I'm saying: Say, in cities with a strong presence of a certain gang, you get scraps of paper/cloth marked with the insignia of the gang. They tell everyone: "This person is trusted/has performed work for the gang". The shopkeepers would accept them, because the gang would enforce them, and because, inside the city, they themselves could use them to buy other stuff.

The three options for currency seem to be:

1) Commodity currency: the money itself is worth something intrinsically. So, a gold coin is worth something because it's made out of gold.

2) Backed currency: a currency is worth something because an organization promises that if you redeem the money, you get a valuable good in return. For instance, gold standard; I can take my money into a bank and redeem it for its value in gold.

2) Fiat currency: a currency is worth something because an institution SAYS it's worth something. There's nothing backing it other than the institution's word and stability.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-05-19, 06:20 PM
Well, I think if you work with coin stand-ins, it's basically just "these are dollars, but X", which is fun in it's own right, but in the end, you're just substituting paper and metals for, say, bone chips or little pieces of cloth. Imagining how an economy would work with a different system sound much more fun to me.


But now that I'm saying: Say, in cities with a strong presence of a certain gang, you get scraps of paper/cloth marked with the insignia of the gang. They tell everyone: "This person is trusted/has performed work for the gang". The shopkeepers would accept them, because the gang would enforce them, and because, inside the city, they themselves could use them to buy other stuff.
But... that's the exact same system as using coins or caps! Currency is currency - it's an idea, not a medium.

The most interesting ideas are actually on different ways to run an economy. You could have a "favor" based system in which people exchange promises of favors in return for goods and services. So, if you eat at my place, you'll have to do the dishes. Or any of the various forms of communitarian living you see in political literature and history.

power4me
2011-05-19, 10:22 PM
I think your currency should be something that everybody uses and that life would be absolutely horrible without. Preferably something that would be difficult to make without factories. To this end I suggest rolls of toilet paper. Anyone preparing for an apocalypse should horde this like gold!

FelixG
2011-05-20, 11:23 AM
I think your currency should be something that everybody uses and that life would be absolutely horrible without. Preferably something that would be difficult to make without factories. To this end I suggest rolls of toilet paper. Anyone preparing for an apocalypse should horde this like gold!

Hmm, not the best of idea. Having something that can be ruined by bad weather would be a bad idea.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-05-20, 11:56 AM
Here's an idea that may or may not work depending on how it was handled. Instead of using something tangible to represent transactions, the people of the wasteland trade in "favors."

A favor would basically be any good or service. If a man gave his neighbor a gun, the neighbor would now owe the man a favor, meaning the man could ask his neighbor for something in the future, whether that be food during a lean year, medical treatment in a time of need, or something tangible like a radio.

The problem is this would need some method of enforcing, otherwise you'd get issues where a person might try to cheat someone by claiming they're owed a favor and all anyone has to go on is one person's word over the other. It also would require that people not move around much, because what's to stop a person from just skipping town to avoid returning their favors?

The core principle of this system would be a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" mentality, I suppose.

Feel free to poke holes in it as you desire. :smallsmile:

Tanngrisnir
2011-05-20, 12:54 PM
Here's an idea that may or may not work depending on how it was handled. Instead of using something tangible to represent transactions, the people of the wasteland trade in "favors."

A favor would basically be any good or service. If a man gave his neighbor a gun, the neighbor would now owe the man a favor, meaning the man could ask his neighbor for something in the future, whether that be food during a lean year, medical treatment in a time of need, or something tangible like a radio.

The problem is this would need some method of enforcing, otherwise you'd get issues where a person might try to cheat someone by claiming they're owed a favor and all anyone has to go on is one person's word over the other. It also would require that people not move around much, because what's to stop a person from just skipping town to avoid returning their favors?

The core principle of this system would be a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" mentality, I suppose.

Feel free to poke holes in it as you desire. :smallsmile:

A similar idea to this was used in Peter F. Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" trilogy. Basically, one character instigated a 'work for magic' scheme. Some people could do magic (those in power) but most couldn't.

Instead of wages, those who couldn't do magic would be paid by being able to commission magic from the magic users. For example, working for three hours would entitle you to have a magic user come to your house and reshape one room to your specifications.

As anyone who has read the books will know, that is a very simplified retelling of what was happening, but it's a good example of a 'favour' based economy.

SamBurke
2011-05-20, 01:03 PM
I'm just gonna point out the value of Gold/Silver, and the fact that it has ALWAYS been of value in the world. Since ancient times, those two precious metals have always been currency, and retain their value amazingly well.

Example: In around 1900, you could use a 20$ gold piece and get yourself a nice suit. Nowadays, that 20$ gold ounce could get you a suit worthy of the Trump. Even with the rampant inflation.

Example Deux: A silver dime used to be able to buy about one half of a gallon of gas (I KNOW! So amazing). Nowadays, that same dime is worth about 2$, and can still buy half a gallon of gas.

Thus, I vote for gold and silver.

Possible places of origin: It might be hard in a post-apocalyptic world, but, then again, most people who prepare for the apocalypse (and there are many) would have gold/silver and other ways of preserving their money value.

Also, bullets. Bullets would be very important in most apocalypses, more so in a zombie version. The hard part would be caliber and the differences there.

LibraryOgre
2011-05-20, 02:55 PM
As others have mentioned, you're probably looking primarily at Trade Goods.

Heck, I've been playing a lot of Fallout 2 recently... I buy most things with leftover guns and equipment, not cash, saving cash for things I can't buy with "trash."

Depending on your level of advancement, you might try what Dragonlance did unsuccessfully and make the main form of currency useful metal. In their case, it got ridiculous because "steel pieces" were supposed to have value because they were steel... but where 3/10s of a pound of steel could by you a long sword that weighed ten times that.

thumbprince
2011-05-20, 03:24 PM
Batteries?

LibraryOgre
2011-05-20, 05:12 PM
Batteries?

A good form of currency, actually. They're useful (especially if they're rechargeable) and relatively portable. Plus, they're hard to counterfeit, since even if you make a fake battery, anyone who can check batteries (which many large places would be able to) would know it is a fake.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-20, 10:08 PM
Rechargeable batteries can only be recharged so many cycles for so long and well, how do you recharge them? Even if you have access to solar cells, they degrade over time and a generator needs fuel and new parts, new parts that require a quite extensive infrastructure to produce. Solar cells even more so. This has probably already been brought up, but any currency needs a pretty strong government or other organization to back its use, something fairly scarce in a recently post-apocalyptic world. Barter and the exchange of favours are the real "currencies" of such a world.

Bogardan_Mage
2011-05-21, 01:11 AM
People realize the difference between currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency) and barter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter), right?

Cigarettes, water, and ammo are all items used in a Barter situation. They have no fixed value as mediums of exchange and are traded because of their usefulness.

Coins and caps are examples of Currency. They have no (or little) inherent use-value and are only accepted in exchange for goods and services because of the value in goods that they represent.

You can pretend that cigarettes or ammo have fixed value in some notional "dollar" system but that's not how they would really work in a post-apocalyptic situation. No farmer is going to trade his crops for cigarettes if he needs scrap metal to repair his roof; he would only trade his crops for ammunition if it was something he could use and he needed it more than he needed the potato.
Sure he would, if he knew there was a marketplace nearby that used cigarettes/ammunition/water/whatever as a standard unit of exchange. I'm not sure why you think the usefulness of things prevents their use as currency; it complicates it, but it doesn't strictly prevent it. If a postapocalyptic community gets together and decides to place a particular value on bottlecaps and use it as currency, how is it any different if they instead use bullets? And unlike bottlecaps, bullets have an actual use thus shielding their value (that's why people used to, and in some cases still do, use precious metals as currency). I certainly agree barter is more likely in a postapocalyptic community than currency, but why is a currency made of a useful good so unimaginable?

NNescio
2011-05-21, 01:30 AM
Water, Food, Ammunition, Fuel.

Whether used directly or by backing up fiat currencies (bottlecaps, food tickets, etc.)

Ravens_cry
2011-05-21, 01:50 AM
In a fairly recent apocalypse, it makes sense but for one as old as presented in, say, Fallout 3 and sequals, you really should not be able to get ammunition in any significant quantities. A modern bullet is a pretty infrastructure intensive artefact. Some people reload their own, but they still need primers and gunpowder or cordite.

Hylleddin
2011-05-21, 02:23 AM
Water isn't going to make a good currency because it's too heavy for traders to carry large quantities around easily. Bullets come in lots of sizes and compositions, and how much they're needed depends a lot on who you are. Good commodity currencies have fairly stable value. Precious metals are good for that because their value comes from rarity and the supply doesn't change much.

Aluminum is a potential commodity at doesn't get looked at much in historic context's because it requires electricity to extract in large enough quantities to even be a commodity. But we have enough aluminum now, and would after an apocalypse.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the first people with fiat currencies backed the pre-apocalypse currencies, especially if they're trying to create a sense of continuity with the old world.

Batteries have a problem in that a half drained battery is hard to tell from a full battery and they're consumable. Consumables have been used as currencies, but if there isn't any source of more, supplies will dwindle.

Gnoman
2011-05-21, 09:42 AM
In a fairly recent apocalypse, it makes sense but for one as old as presented in, say, Fallout 3 and sequals, you really should not be able to get ammunition in any significant quantities. A modern bullet is a pretty infrastructure intensive artefact. Some people reload their own, but they still need primers and gunpowder or cordite.

The only thing about modern ammunition that's difficult to make is the casing. You can use just about anything for the actual bullet, and all you need for the primer is some kind of contact explosive. Both contact explosives and gunpowder are fairly easy to make from basic chemicals. Realistically, whatever war that took out civilizaton would not be a "clean broom" and would leave enough intact to keep some small-scale manufacturing going until equipment breaks down, and that's that's long enough to keep the concept alive.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-21, 11:16 AM
If you can't manufacture new cases, how can you manufacture new primers? It's by no means "just" a little contact explosives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition#Boxer_primer). Gunpowder at it's most basic may be easy to make, but it's harder to make GOOD gunpowder, gunpowder that won't settle (corned gunpowder) is an industrial process. Sure, you know the basic formula, but do you know how to make a gunpowder that is good for a cannon and not a handgun, or vise versa? Not to mention the chemicals involved. Sulphur may or may not be available in your area locally, and saltpetre isn't easy to come by either. In fact, it often had to be made.
Also, most modern guns use smokeless powder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder) and they are even more complicated.

Traab
2011-05-21, 11:57 AM
Im sure its been said, but ill weigh in anyhow. An ideal currency in a post-apocalyptic world is a lightweight, portable, useful item. Like clean water, ammo, long lasting food, things with an actual common use for a society thats still struggling to survive. If you have bullets or arrows to trade that would be highly valuable as it can be used for protection, or hunting.

Gnoman
2011-05-21, 12:18 PM
If you can't manufacture new cases, how can you manufacture new primers? It's by no means "just" a little contact explosives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition#Boxer_primer). Gunpowder at it's most basic may be easy to make, but it's harder to make GOOD gunpowder, gunpowder that won't settle (corned gunpowder) is an industrial process. Sure, you know the basic formula, but do you know how to make a gunpowder that is good for a cannon and not a handgun, or vise versa? Not to mention the chemicals involved. Sulphur may or may not be available in your area locally, and saltpetre isn't easy to come by either. In fact, it often had to be made.
Also, most modern guns use smokeless powder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder) and they are even more complicated.
You *can* load them with regular powder, it's just less nice. As for the rest, it's not as complicated ass it looks.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-21, 02:21 PM
You *can* load them with regular powder, it's just less nice. As for the rest, it's not as complicated ass it looks.
Yeah and leaves behind gunge that does nasty things to a likely irreplaceable barrel. You say it's Not that complicated? Tell, me, if you were forced to use only local materials, where would you get saltpetre and sulphur? Even actual charcoal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charcoal) might be hard to find. We are not talking nice bagged chemicals off of eBay here. Same with the chemicals involved in primers. Sure, some people may know the theoreticals and even fewer may know the practicals, but for most people, modern technology is basically magic.

Gnoman
2011-05-21, 02:24 PM
Hitorically, saltpeter was aquired from dung. Sulfur contamination in water supplies has always been a problem. Regarding the "grunge", alt that means is that you have to clean the barrel more often. The idea that such a basic concept would be "magic" is a fallacy.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-21, 02:41 PM
Hitorically, saltpeter was aquired from dung. Sulfur contamination in water supplies has always been a problem. Regarding the "grunge", alt that means is that you have to clean the barrel more often. The idea that such a basic concept would be "magic" is a fallacy.
Do you know how to extract it? And if you do, does the average guy (or gal) on the street who wants a weapon if the world goes all pear shaped?
Just because it is old technology does not give us an automatic understanding. Ever tried flint knapping? Not as easy as it looks.

Aux-Ash
2011-05-21, 03:04 PM
Fuel, ammo, water, food, cigarettes, iron and anything else useful makes for a horrible basis for a currency. The reason is that their value is not stabile.

Water sounds great as a currency, until you realise that the money would undergo massive deflation during the first draught.
Ammo would work... until a armed conflict happens. Then suddenly massive deflation.
And so on

The need for the item that makes up the money suddenly increases dramatically and makes the money vastly more valueable than the commodities traded for it. The key to a currency is that it no matter what has the same value. That you can always correlate what you get for it.

That's why most currencies in history have been items or materials of very little use. Gold, silver, seashells, cocoa beans... In themselves not very valueable. Which makes their value stabile and unchanging. How much a commodity is worth depends on the supply and demand, but the value of the money remains the same.

Pre-apocalypse money would work as a currency actually. As long as people believe it has a worth, it does. If you can exchange it at a market for stuff... it is a currency. No matter if there is a central authority saying it is worth something or not.
What truly matters in the end is wether you can buy something for it or not.

And a state is not necessary for a currency, a market is. A currency might only be limited to that market, but if it works there it works. It really is as simple as that.

That said, in a post-apocalyptic world most people would probably rely on bartering first.

Tvtyrant
2011-05-21, 03:32 PM
Actually the best currency would be something that is inherently useful without being consumed. Everlasting solar panels that can be hooked into things for example; make them small and able to be used as a normal battery and you have a form of currency that is worth a lot but is never used up by its own existence.

Aux-Ash
2011-05-21, 03:37 PM
Actually the best currency would be something that is inherently useful without being consumed. Everlasting solar panels that can be hooked into things for example; make them small and able to be used as a normal battery and you have a form of currency that is worth a lot but is never used up by its own existence.

Not really. Those kind of solar cells is something you'd want to keep. The whole point of money is that it is supposed to circulate and that it is only valuable if you give it away for something else.

Tvtyrant
2011-05-21, 03:41 PM
Not really. Those kind of solar cells is something you'd want to keep. The whole point of money is that it is supposed to circulate and that it is only valuable if you give it away for something else.

I disagree, the point of money is that it has a fixed worth. Gold was valuable without trade and was the first real standard; French peasants were found with gold crosses an inch thick during the revolution. You simply have to trade something worth more then the battery is worth to use it as money, which is how money works in the modern economy; we just use it as a standard of labor. If the worth of the object is not equal to the amount of labor you don't buy it.

Aux-Ash
2011-05-21, 04:00 PM
I disagree, the point of money is that it has a fixed worth. Gold was valuable without trade and was the first real standard; French peasants were found with gold crosses an inch thick during the revolution. You simply have to trade something worth more then the battery is worth to use it as money, which is how money works in the modern economy; we just use it as a standard of labor. If the worth of the object is not equal to the amount of labor you don't buy it.

Indeed. But I'd argue that the value of a solar cell is dependant on how much it can be used to power individually and/or in combination with other solar cells. If noone has anything these solar cells can be used for, the price will be fixed... but it'd sort contradicts the point of having useable currency.

If there is items they can power around, then their price will start to depend on how much of those that circulate. If someone discovers a new cache/starts manufactoring more electronics/electrically powered machines then the value of the solar cells will start to increase.
In addition... everyone will try to keep at least one at home and rich people will probably surround themselves with things requiring electrical power (to show off how wealthy they are) and thus starts hoarding the solar cells to power their stuff... taking money out of the system and therefore changing it's worth.

That's sort of the problem with currency that is useful as anything other than being currency. It is what it is used for that will determine it's value and like all things... that value will fluctuate according to the market.

Izual
2011-05-21, 05:51 PM
Water is drunk, bullets are fired and food is eaten; these aren't a form of currency, they are bartered.

Currency is something that won't be used in any other necessary way, is hoardable, and can be carried easily in large quantities.

Thinking more on this, I think maybe coins will continue to be used as currency in any given apocalypse. In the USA, Quarter or Dime coins will be used as currency, just that their value will be different than that which is stamped on them. Say maybe an assault rifle will be worth 2000 coins rather than 500 dollars (or whatever they are actually worth nowadays, I can't remember). Why coins? They are metal and therefore more likely to survive relatively untarnished into the post-apocalyptic world.

randomhero00
2011-05-21, 06:37 PM
Well if the place gets any kind of serious winter then furs would be big on the barter list. I know this because, well it used to be that way. Everybody needs to stay warm. Anyone can horde (treated) furs.

Bogardan_Mage
2011-05-21, 10:28 PM
Water is drunk, bullets are fired and food is eaten; these aren't a form of currency, they are bartered.
Please stop just asserting this. If they are the standard medium of exchange then they are currency, whether they're consumable or not. Rum has been used as currency in the real world, for example. The definition of barter is not "trading things that can be consumed".

BobSutan
2011-05-22, 12:44 AM
Hey Playground, Im currnently formulating a post apocalyptic campaign, likely with gurps 3rd ed as the system and was wondering if anybody had interesting currency suggestions. Assume a world similar to fallout but with less radioactive menace.

The only information I can offer in regards to the setting is that it would be an alternate world to earth with different geographies cultures ect. Probably black powder tech levels mainly with some "artifacts", thanks in advance :smallsmile:.

Bottle caps. :smallsmile:

Aux-Ash
2011-05-22, 01:36 AM
Please stop just asserting this. If they are the standard medium of exchange then they are currency, whether they're consumable or not. Rum has been used as currency in the real world, for example. The definition of barter is not "trading things that can be consumed".

The problem with consumable resources is that they too have a supply and demand that determines their price. If the medium of exchange is water, then virtually all trade will cease during a water shortage and the world will undergo massive inflation during the first clean rain. If the drought is real bad... then people will start trading goods for water. Not the other way around. Where one bottle of water bought you two guns before, now ten guns buys you a bottle of water. Which is fair in bartering... but a disaster for a currency. Kind of like those cases where people melted down coins to get the metal in it (since it was much more valuable than the coins themselves)
If the value of what makes up the money becomes greater than what can be bought for it, then people will stop trading with money.

Tetsubo 57
2011-05-22, 03:29 AM
Barter to my mind will be the most likely means of exchange in a PA setting. If there is need of actual currency I see no reason that precious metals will fall out of fashion. Silver and gold are both durable materials that have been used as currency for thousands of years. Bottle caps seem an absurd idea to me. They are nigh ubiquitous. A poor feature for something that is suppose to be a stable currency. Heck, find a bottling plant and you are 'rich'. I would much rather stick with silver and gold coins and ingots thanks.

Bogardan_Mage
2011-05-22, 04:20 AM
The problem with consumable resources is that they too have a supply and demand that determines their price. If the medium of exchange is water, then virtually all trade will cease during a water shortage and the world will undergo massive inflation during the first clean rain. If the drought is real bad... then people will start trading goods for water. Not the other way around. Where one bottle of water bought you two guns before, now ten guns buys you a bottle of water. Which is fair in bartering... but a disaster for a currency. Kind of like those cases where people melted down coins to get the metal in it (since it was much more valuable than the coins themselves)
If the value of what makes up the money becomes greater than what can be bought for it, then people will stop trading with money.
So it's not a very stable currency, but it's still currency. And in a postapocalyptic society, nothing is very stable anyway. The mere possibility of consuming the thing doesn't necessarily result in the situation you describe anyway. Sure, water is something people will be consuming every day, and if it's not replenished at a constant and consistant rate it's going to be unstable as a currency (although I can imagine settings where it is stable enough, obviously it won't work in most) but just because ammunition for example can be spent doesn't mean it can't be traded. You're not going to get a rain of bullets causing mass inflation. You might have a situation where the settlement is under attack which drains the economy, but depending on the setting that might not be very common. Basically, there are situations where it can work, and there's no sense in dismissing things because if it's consumable it must be barter, not currency.

FelixG
2011-05-22, 04:47 AM
Barter to my mind will be the most likely means of exchange in a PA setting. If there is need of actual currency I see no reason that precious metals will fall out of fashion. Silver and gold are both durable materials that have been used as currency for thousands of years. Bottle caps seem an absurd idea to me. They are nigh ubiquitous. A poor feature for something that is suppose to be a stable currency. Heck, find a bottling plant and you are 'rich'. I would much rather stick with silver and gold coins and ingots thanks.

The reason they used bottlecaps was because they couldnt be remade, and sure, the person who finds a bottling plant will be rich, but that will get spread around as they trade for other things.

there is a plot in fallout 3 (or new vegas, I cant remember which) where some manages to get a press working again and starts to "print" new bottle caps, you are hired to go in and shut him down so he doesnt upset the balance.

Aux-Ash
2011-05-22, 05:42 AM
So it's not a very stable currency, but it's still currency. And in a postapocalyptic society, nothing is very stable anyway. The mere possibility of consuming the thing doesn't necessarily result in the situation you describe anyway. Sure, water is something people will be consuming every day, and if it's not replenished at a constant and consistant rate it's going to be unstable as a currency (although I can imagine settings where it is stable enough, obviously it won't work in most) but just because ammunition for example can be spent doesn't mean it can't be traded. You're not going to get a rain of bullets causing mass inflation. You might have a situation where the settlement is under attack which drains the economy, but depending on the setting that might not be very common. Basically, there are situations where it can work, and there's no sense in dismissing things because if it's consumable it must be barter, not currency.

But stability is precisely what one looks for in a currency. That's why massive inflation and deflation can be so disastrous for an economy. If people no longer trust the currency to be stable enough, they'll abandon it and fall back on something more stable.

In a shortage of the examples (food, water, fuel, ammo, batteries, farmable earth) people will stop using it as a currency and start trading other stuff for it. They'll pay for money with something else. Eventually it can reach a point where a single "unit" of money will be worth more than any commodity that is available.
Why would anyone trade say, a bottle of water or a cache of ammo, if that bottle/cache is worth more than anything you can buy for it?

During a drought, noone would willingly give away water. During a conflict, noone would give away ammo. During a famine, noone would give away food. If you got vehicles, you want to accumulate all the fuel you can. If you got stuff needing batteries you want to keep those plugged into a battery/solar cell.

If the money itself is more valuable than the commodities (for an example: I need ammo, but I need water more) then noone will use it for trade. Which is sort of contrary to the point of currency.
In all other cases people will hold onto it tight and only give it away for things they really need. Making "pawning stuff off" a more accurate description than "paying for with". Which means it's not really a currency, just very valuable items. Something you barter, but not a medium of exchange.

The reason the consumables are very poor currencies is that unlike items of low intrinsic value, they stand up poorly in times of great supply or great demand. Those are precisely the times you want the currency to be stabile.

FelixG
2011-05-22, 05:59 AM
In a place where things are very consistent Water can be a very good currency though... A lot of RPG settings are fairly consistent, and then something that threatens the currency can become a quest on its own.

mindforge
2013-01-26, 03:12 PM
I think it depends on the type of apocalypse and how long the fall has lasted. If you are going for the fallout style, generations after the fall then your currency would be far different than weeks after the fall.

In the first weeks, your main currency is going to be medicine - especially insulin. Meds for bad hearts, diabetics and necessary medication will cause a run on the stores. Looting will occur within days of the fall. Gangs and groups will have formed. Isolated people will have been killed, raped, left without anything by more violent groups - especially in major cities where gangs will unite because they already have group formed in pre-apocalypse. Ammo will not be a major issue yet. Food is still readily available if you are in a group. Marauding will start once the stores have been looted.

Months after the fall the primary barter will be water and food.

To understand the barters system will follow Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. So, every group will have different needs and only the barter system will rule. So...

Here are a group/individual needs basis - in order.

1. (physiological needs) Breathing, Food, Water, Sex, Sleep, Homeostasis (staying warm) and Excretion. These needs are the primary things they need and people. In desperation, they will trade for these items at a higher value if they need them bad enough. Someone will trade ammo for water if they are dying of thirst. Now, it is a very real situation that having a woman is a valuable commodity in the post-apocalyptic world. Sex is a driving factor for human beings - only food, water and breathing are more important. Some people might argue the fact but it is how our brains work.
- gas masks or suits in a radioactive environment
- canned and packaged foods
- drinking water and water purification
- sex is a bartering tool also
- clothing, especially in a cold environment or nuclear winter

2. (safety needs) Security of body, employment, resources, morality, the family, health and property. Security is essential to our mental well being and in a post-apocalyptic environment - once food and water have been established, security like guns, ammo, a place to sleep and defenses will be top priority.
- guns
- ammo
- protection (armored vest, weapons, barbed wire, etc)
- religious items
- medicine
- a secure place to live

3. (love and belonging) Friendship, family and intimacy. Once necessary needs are taken care of of the first two tiers of needs the barter system changes. If people have the first two tiers taken care of a community or individual can barter more effectively and can now trade for 'wants'...
- items that will impress family and friends
- at this point the individual will trade for the future if necessary.

4. (esteem) It is at this point and even the tier before that people will seek respect of others. People will actively look for power and respect. When people are no longer busy with survival they have time to think about their situation. This can cause a violent breakdown in violent groups like pre-fall gangs. People will make alliances at this point and most people are more able to made trades and might even make trades for items that will be valuable after the fall.

5. (self-actualization) At this point, members of a group will begin problem solving, accept facts and be very creative. They are well fed and have high bartering power. Groups and individuals that are at tier 5 even have things like electricity and are seeking to find answers that will make their lives better.
- solar panels
- generators
- engineering equipment

To sum it up... people at a tier 1 are easily taken advantage of in trade with a group that has taken care of all their needs.

Example: A group of people that has solar power, charging station, organized trash collection, water recycling and plenty of food (gardens, animals, etc) has a lot of bargaining power with a nomad that needs water. The nomad might give up guns, ammo and higher tier items for water. Water is not nearly as valuable to the tier 5 people. They might have plenty of water. If someone had a lot of water already and came into the group, their trade power is reduced... let's say they wanted solar panels from the group, they would never trade it for water, maybe for guns or something else.

As you can see, the barter system would be the only real currency and everyone has a different need based on what needs they have already covered. A guy that has 100 pounds of food and no water will trade 5 pounds of food for some water... a guy with 2 pounds of food and no water might trade half his food... and maybe get the same amount of water. There is no set price...

Here is what I did in my own post-apoc game I made. This was basically for easy use of a monetary system that could be used as a base. I created 4 unit values based on Maslow's Needs.

Consumable Unit = Can of Food and 4 cups of water or 2 cans of food or 8 cups of water. Water and food are the basic currency in a P.A. world.
Security Unit = Gun or 10 rounds of ammo.
Luxury Unit = Can of Coffee or a Pack of Cigarettes or a Gallon of Gas
Resource Unit = Solar Panel Setup. Working Vehicle.

In P.A. society you have two primary groups. Territorial fortified groups and wandering marauders. Those people that are unwilling to kill another person will die in a P.A. world. One side finds a place and decides to settle down and try and grow food and raise animals. Sometimes a group will settle because they find an area with abundant hunting. Trading tendencies will be different.

Dr.Epic
2013-01-26, 03:12 PM
Bartering seems like the most basic.

mindforge
2013-01-26, 04:12 PM
In RPG terms I guess it depends on how you play. I created a currency system based on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Each 'unit' is focused on the tiers of Maslow's theory.

Consumption Unit (CU) is the amount that one person needs to consume to survive for one day. In order to survive, it takes 1,000 calories and 4 cups of water per day. It's a guideline. Keep in mind that different people will have different survival requirements. But a general rule of thumb. is 8 cups of water, 2000 calories or 1000 calories and 4 cups of water is a consumption unit.

Security Unit (SU) is a single basic firearm or 10 rounds of ammo. Now, certain guns are going to be more efficient and will cost more security units. A .50 machinegun with a belt of ammo would cost dozens of regular guns.

Luxury Unit (LU) represent things that are not necessary but are very useful. Gas, propane are all luxury units.

Resource Unit (RU) is a major resource like solar panel setups, propane heaters, engines, generators, working cars and wind power.

Consumption Unit (CU) equals one day of survival.
Security Unit (SU) equals 5 Consumption Units.
Luxury Unit (LU) equals 10 Consumption Units.
Resource Unit (RU) equals 50 Consumption Units.

This is just a general rule. I have a bartering skill in my game that allows for changes in the system.... but generally, 10 bullets would be worth 5 days of survival but bartering changes the whole game. Luxury units like gasoline or a tank of propane would cost 10 days of food and water (consumption unit). A working wind generator would cost 50 consumption units.

My prices are based on 50 years after the fall for my game. But the general system for creating a good fast way to round off prices for a barter roll...

LibraryOgre
2013-01-26, 10:50 PM
The Mod Wonder uses Turn Undead!
It's very effective!