Wait... What's that feat...

[Kife]

I could have sworn there is a feat that allows someone to add to their AC = to their intelligence modifier in return for a penalty to attack. Expertise or something like that? It'd really help Roy out against Thog till his rage expires.

[Absol197]

It's called Combat Expertise. Instead of adding their Intelligence modifier, they can take a penalty on attacks (up to -5) and add that amount to their AC, which of course means that it'll probably add up to more than Roy's Int modifier.

While it might be useful, there are two things about that:

A +5 to AC isn't a whole lot against a high-level melee character (Thog's Base Attack Bonus is likely between +13 and +16; i.e. equal to his level) when there are no magic items (especially armor) in play.

Second, Thog doesn't seem to be raging right now, and he's still doing quite well. When he does rage, his already massive attack bonus will go up, probably by +3 (because of his increased Strength).

Combat Expertise might help Roy, but it along won't be enough to win this fight, if it continues the way it has been going.

[Squirrel_Token]

I don't really know that Roy is definitively behind in this fight. So far, they both got in a small hit, and it appears Thog managed to get a single critical hit--a single critical hit doesn't really prove Thog is definitively stronger than Roy.

Furthermore, back in 788, Roy got Thog pretty good when Thog was flatfooted, so their HP are probably similar at this point in the fight.

[Gray Mage]

I don't really know that Roy is definitively behind in this fight. So far, they both got in a small hit, and it appears Thog managed to get a single critical hit--a single critical hit doesn't really prove Thog is definitively stronger than Roy.

Furthermore, back in 788, Roy got Thog pretty good when Thog was flatfooted, so their HP are probably similar at this point in the fight.

I'm not sure if that last attack was a critical. I just think Thog used a higher Power Attack, it's not like Roy has a meaningfull AC now. Btw, Thog probably has a higher HP than Roy because of higher hit dice, not to mention probably DR and the HP bonus he'd get when he rages. That together with his likely higher str means Roy is behind in the fight, although not by much yet, IMO.

[Squirrel_Token]

I'm not sure if that last attack was a critical. I just think Thog used a higher Power Attack, it's not like Roy has a meaningfull AC now. Btw, Thog probably has a higher HP than Roy because of higher hit dice, not to mention probably DR and the HP bonus he'd get when he rages. That together with his likely higher str means Roy is behind in the fight, although not by much yet, IMO.

Meh. As many other have pointed out, Roy likely has some feats that will at least partially offset Thog's rage.

In any case, I think we're both essentially arguing that the fight is mostly even at worst right now for Roy.

[Gray Mage]

Meh. As many other have pointed out, Roy likely has some feats that will at least partially offset Thog's rage.

In any case, I think we're both essentially arguing that the fight is mostly even at worst right now for Roy.

Yes, but Combat Expertise would probably put Roy in a worse condition, because of the attack penalty. Also, what could partially offset rage in core? I'm drawing a blank here. :smallconfused:

[Thanatosia]

There are a couple prestige classes that let you add your int modifier to Attack rolls. The Duelist lets you do it as long as you are wearing light or no armor and only using a rapier-type blade in one hand. There Bladedancer is a elf/halfelf only one with some magical abilities that also lets you add int bonus to attack rolls IIRC if you use a longsword. I don't know of any that would provide that kind of a bonus with a greatsword tho, and given Roy's attachment to his family sword.....

As for the chances of winning, unless Roy can use his Int in a roleplaying sense to come up with some devious trick (which really has nothing to do with the mechanical aspects of the int stat), or he's just much higher level then Thog, he's screwed, IMO.

[QDI]

Hum, Combat expertise > Improved Disarm?

Roy has probably a better attack bonus for the moment (Greater weapon focus) so he would probably be able to disarm the Half Orc.

Sadly, we don't know if he took this excellent feat.

[factotum]

Yes, but Combat Expertise would probably put Roy in a worse condition, because of the attack penalty.

I'm not so sure. If his to-hit on Thog is already pretty high (which it's likely to be, given his level and the poor armour) then taking a -5 to hit might not reduce his chance to hit by that much. It's whether the bonus to AC would *reduce* Thog's chance to hit by enough to make a difference that's critical.

[Thanatosia]

I'm not so sure. If his to-hit on Thog is already pretty high (which it's likely to be, given his level and the poor armour) then taking a -5 to hit might not reduce his chance to hit by that much. It's whether the bonus to AC would *reduce* Thog's chance to hit by enough to make a difference that's critical.
Since Thog probably has a higher +hit modifier then Roy (I'm assuming they are close in level, both with weapon focus, and Thog having a significantly higher STR bonus), using Expertise would be very counterproductive I'd say.

[dabone]

Maybe somebody is allready talling this on another post, but why should it be a feat and not just something with skills (since int = skillpoints) or maybe a feat that doesnt use Int but needs a high Int as an precesite.

[derfenrirwolv]

Meh. As many other have pointed out, Roy likely has some feats that will at least partially offset Thog's rage.


Unlikely. The line is "linear warriors quadratic wizards" but the fact is that fighters aren't even linear. Going by core (which oots normally does) a fighter cannot put all of their feats into combat at the same time. You take one combat "tree" and then after level 8 you have to shop for feats outside of that tree, starting over with feats that are balanced for first level characters rather than 8th level characters.

Roy's only saving graces here are greater weapon focus (+2 to hit) and greater weapon specialization (+4 to damage). Thog (as a level 2 warrior level x barbarian) most likely has weapon focus, and being a half orc has a higher strength, making their to hit even: BEFORE Thog rages. Roys damage is str 20 *1.5 +4 (about 11) and Thogs is str *1.5 (+9) . This is before thog rages.

After he rages his hit goes 2 higher than roys. His damage becomes roughly +12. and there's pretty much no reason for these guys not to power attack full on: they almost can't miss.

[JonestheSpy]

A +5 to AC isn't a whole lot against a high-level melee character (Thog's Base Attack Bonus is likely between +13 and +16; i.e. equal to his level) when there are no magic items (especially armor) in play.



Since Thog probably has a higher +hit modifier then Roy (I'm assuming they are close in level, both with weapon focus, and Thog having a significantly higher STR bonus), using Expertise would be very counterproductive I'd say.



After he rages his hit goes 2 higher than roys. His damage becomes roughly +12. and there's pretty much no reason for these guys not to power attack full on: they almost can't miss.

You know, I still find it amazing when folks focus on the game mechanics to the point that they ignore what's happening in front of their eyes. Case in point, if one actually looks at the pictures in the fight scenes, one would notice that both Thog and Roy are missing each other rather frequently.

So yeah, I think it would be pretty easy to infer that Roy would be better off if he had Combat Expertise, OR that he does have it and is using it, which would explain why Thog is having trouble hitting him and why he's having trouble landing a blow himself.

Also, there's a pretty obvious way focusing on defense would help Roy - if he provokes Thog to rage and then goes full defensive, he has a good chance of outlasting the rage, after which he gets to face an opponent suffering from Fatigue.



You take one combat "tree" and then after level 8 you have to shop for feats outside of that tree, starting over with feats that are balanced for first level characters rather than 8th level characters.


Improved Critical would like a word with you.

[derfenrirwolv]

You know, I still find it amazing when folks focus on the game mechanics to the point that they ignore what's happening in front of their eyes. Case in point, if one actually looks at the pictures in the fight scenes, one would notice that both Thog and Roy are missing each other rather frequently.

I'm aware of that and assume that either 1) its there for art/dramatic purposes and/or 2) its part of the caveat in the world of 6 second rounds that not all motions you make with your swords are the actual attack. The last attack by thog is the only thing that looks like a power attack.



So yeah, I think it would be pretty easy to infer that Roy would be better off if he had Combat Expertise, OR that he does have it and is using it, which would explain why Thog is having trouble hitting him and why he's having trouble landing a blow himself.

Wouldn't explain why Roy is missing thog.


Also, there's a pretty obvious way focusing on defense would help Roy - if he provokes Thog to rage and then goes full defensive, he has a good chance of outlasting the rage, after which he gets to face an opponent suffering from Fatigue.

Would very well be thematic and work well in comic. Its what i think he's going to try to do next.

It would not work well in game. Even with armor and ac boosting gear attacks outstrip AC by a fair bit. With the plate iron bikini's those two are wearing +5 shouldn't make any difference.





Improved Critical would like a word with you.

Its 1) available at level 8 , when i said the cutoff happened 2)Just as available to thog as it is to roy.


Improved Critical [General]

Choose one type of weapon.
Prerequisite

Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit

When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special

You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Gray Mage]

I'm not so sure. If his to-hit on Thog is already pretty high (which it's likely to be, given his level and the poor armour) then taking a -5 to hit might not reduce his chance to hit by that much. It's whether the bonus to AC would *reduce* Thog's chance to hit by enough to make a difference that's critical.

The thing is that every point of penalty he takes to increase his AC is better spent in Power Attack to increase his damage, since the difference would be Thog needing, like, a 4 or 5 instead of a 2 to hit him.



Meh. As many other have pointed out, Roy likely has some feats that will at least partially offset Thog's rage.


Unlikely. The line is "linear warriors quadratic wizards" but the fact is that fighters aren't even linear. Going by core (which oots normally does) a fighter cannot put all of their feats into combat at the same time. You take one combat "tree" and then after level 8 you have to shop for feats outside of that tree, starting over with feats that are balanced for first level characters rather than 8th level characters.

Roy's only saving graces here are greater weapon focus (+2 to hit) and greater weapon specialization (+4 to damage). Thog (as a level 2 warrior level x barbarian) most likely has weapon focus, and being a half orc has a higher strength, making their to hit even: BEFORE Thog rages. Roys damage is str 20 *1.5 +4 (about 11) and Thogs is str *1.5 (+9) . This is before thog rages.

After he rages his hit goes 2 higher than roys. His damage becomes roughly +12. and there's pretty much no reason for these guys not to power attack full on: they almost can't miss.
Actually, if you assume their to hit to be even before rage, then with rage Thog would be at least +2 higher. More if his level is higher than 12.

[Ninjaman]

They can´t hit eachother becourse they are wearing a +10 plot armor.

[Calmness]

They can´t hit eachother becourse they are wearing a +10 plot armor.
Yeah. Their fight would last about two rounds otherwise.

[Gurgeh]

Obviously the fight is going much slower than it would in pure D&D rules - it'd be boring otherwise.

I feel I should correct a misconception some people seem to have: the 1.5x bonus to strength that fighting with a two-handed weapon grants is only a bonus to damage, not attack rolls - it's not like two-handed power attacking isn't already way too good without having boosted accuracy thrown into the bargain.

[cupkeyk]

Speaking of Feats, does anyone else other than me think that Thog Used Leap Attack in the second to the last panel. And it knocked Roy prone, so I think that's another feat... Shock Trooper or something.

[Gray Mage]

Speaking of Feats, does anyone else other than me think that Thog Used Leap Attack in the second to the last panel. And it knocked Roy prone, so I think that's another feat... Shock Trooper or something.

Although it'd be fitting with apparent damage, Leap Attack needs to be done after a charge.

[cupkeyk]

Isn't there another feat that makes any jump check up, into a charge down?

[GSFB]

Going by core (which oots normally does) a fighter cannot put all of their feats into combat at the same time. You take one combat "tree" and then after level 8 you have to shop for feats outside of that tree, starting over with feats that are balanced for first level characters rather than 8th level characters.

That's funny. I've never seen this in any 3.5 core book.

[Nightmarenny]

That's funny. I've never seen this in any 3.5 core book.

I... think you may want to reread that.

Its not a rule. It the way the system works. Take Roy. He takes Weapon Focus(1) Power Attack(1) Cleave(1). Until level four he's out of directly useful feats. So lets say he takes Quick Draw(2) Improved Bullrush(3). Ok both of those are only sorta useful. Weapons Specialization(4) Great Cleave(6). Again we're out. For that second six he takes Improved Initiative(6). Improved Critical(8), Greater Weapon Focus(9). Then I couldn't even think what feat to take for ten. then he takes greater Weapon Specialization(12) and your done. what could you take that directly improves Roys abilities fighting with the Greatsword?

Heck he had to take like 8 crappy feats to get that far anyway.

[Ninjaman]

I know how Roy will use int to beat Thog, he got more skill points. Skill points FTW.

[GSFB]

directly useful feats

And that is what I am talking about. Yes, there are trees that create limitations because of what has to come first, etc. But these are not the only useful feats. There are many other feats that have nothing to do with the trees, and a smart player can take advantage of them. And, we know that OotS world includes many rules from supplements, house rules, and writer rule zero for plot/funny.

[sr123]

Skill points FTW.

Since Roy's CHA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7287015&postcount=1) is decent, he should be able to skill-buy enough to get some great feints (Bluff) against an orc's Sense Motive check. Improved Feint would be needed to get it as a usable move-action.

Oops... and as I just found out, he would have had to max out those Bluff buys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) in the last three levels. Intimidate... seems a less-likely winner against an orc.

But of course, there's also Jump attacks (Battle and Mantis feats), Tumble evasions, and the like. We'll see.

[derfenrirwolv]

And that is what I am talking about. Yes, there are trees that create limitations because of what has to come first, etc. But these are not the only useful feats. There are many other feats that have nothing to do with the trees, and a smart player can take advantage of them. And, we know that OotS world includes many rules from supplements, house rules, and writer rule zero for plot/funny.

The problem is that the trees get rather sparse after level 8 and stop completely after level 12. From there you need to bail out, jump to the bottom, pick another tree suitable for a first level character and start all over. Its hard to use great cleave and point blank shot in the same round. You may be an awsome archer and a crack swordsman, but you can only be one on any given action.

[Thanatosia]

Yeah. Their fight would last about two rounds otherwise.
How so?

Both Thog and Roy seem to be moving a lot during the fight, which is preventing them from using full attacks. This means only 1 attack per round, and a fight between 2 high HD melee limited to 1 attack per round can stretch a combat out a fair bit.

Standing still and trading full attacks would pretty much favor whoever has the better hit bonus (probably Thog) - their first attack each round is probably pretty much guaranteed to hit for both of them (an attack in D&D terms is not neccisarily equal to each melee swing in RP terms btw, yes they can miss swings while hitting on every 'attack'), but if they get subsequent attacks, the 3rd and (if their BAB is 16+) 4th attacks could easily miss - so whoever has the higher hit bonus can translate that into more damage per round if they get to use full attacks - so keeping the fight mobile and avoiding full attack action trading would be the wise course for the one with the lower hit bonus (probably Roy) - which also buys him time to think up something clever to overcome or bypass Thogs mechanical combat advantages.

[JonestheSpy]

The problem is that the trees get rather sparse after level 8 and stop completely after level 12. From there you need to bail out, jump to the bottom, pick another tree suitable for a first level character and start all over.

Except it would rarely, if ever, actually work out that way. Fighters have tons of feats, so many that they're going to have far more than they can use on a single "tree" by the time they hit level 12. So they're not going to be going back and starting over, they'll be moving up two or three feat trees simultaneously as they gain levels.

[Gurgeh]

Which is still pretty lame, because you don't generally get to use many different trees in conjunction.

[derfenrirwolv]

Except it would rarely, if ever, actually work out that way. Fighters have tons of feats, so many that they're going to have far more than they can use on a single "tree" by the time they hit level 12. So they're not going to be going back and starting over, they'll be moving up two or three feat trees simultaneously as they gain levels.

Usually they fill in the non tree feats with one off feats like improved initiative and quickdraw. Even if you assume that they are working on 2 trees simultaneously what you wind up with is 2 8th level abilities rather than 2 12th level abilities.

Can you show me a 14th level fighter build who's power level doesn't level off sharply?

[Ancalagon]

D&D is a lot about tactics. So it makes sense for a fighter to have a main-tree - and use his other bonus feats to get better outside of it.
Like being able to use a bow/crossbow as well or get better with other weapons (or without some).

What do you do if you are the most awesome melee-fighter but then meet someone you can only damage with ranged weapons or who has specialised in disarming you and you suddenly are without weapon? I bet you wish you practiced unarmed, then.

To me, a fighter is not just someone who is really good at fighting with his weapon of choice but who can use other styles of fighting just as well.
And here comes the excessive amount of bonus feats into the game. If you have a fighter who is lost as soon as some DM takes away his favourite weapon... you made a mistake. ;)

[Albonor]

Funny, I always thought that after Power Attack, Improved Trip was the best melee feat around. Sure, you could lose the Str contest but if it works the other guy is flat on his back with a penalty to AC and to-hit and it gives you a free attack.

He wants to get up? AOO in the face.

Roy's intelligence score can be used to get Combat Expertise which is the prereq for it. And using this seems like the only way even out the odds a bit.

Like some people already wrote:

Thog:
-Probably 10-14 hp more than Roy before rage is factored in simply with the Barb levels.
-Better total to-hit with much higher Str due to Rage (Great exp is +2; Rage + str is at least +3 or +4)
-Damage to close to call (1d12+12 vs 2d6+11 before Power Attack? Critical hits will count).

Roy:
-Maybe a feat or two that can be used to gain a strategic advantage. Because otherwise he's screwed in a pure bashing contest.

[Ancalagon]

I always thought that Improved Trip and especially Improved Disarm (worse: if you have a 2-handed weapon) could nearly be considered as cheats. :smallbiggrin:

[JonestheSpy]

Can you show me a 14th level fighter build who's power level doesn't level off sharply?

Get into a whole optimization/build debate on the OotS board? Um, no.

I merely pointed out that your initial assertion that a fighter had to go back and start at the beginning of a tree when they reached 12th level was not very likely.

[derfenrirwolv]

Get into a whole optimization/build debate on the OotS board? Um, no.

I merely pointed out that your initial assertion that a fighter had to go back and start at the beginning of a tree when they reached 12th level was not very likely.

you TOLD me it was not likely. I'm asking you to SHOW me.

[JonestheSpy]

you TOLD me it was not likely. I'm asking you to SHOW me.

I'm not sure how to 'show' you that the majority of people who play fighters are not dumb or incredibly inexperienced.

Without going into extraneous detail, let me enlighten you with some simple math. A 12th level human fighter like Our Hero Roy has got 13 feats under their belt. The weapon focus tree, as a convenient example, takes up all of 4, 5 if you throw in Improved Critical - and those have to be spaced out as Our Hero gains levels, after level 4 they can't take another until level 8. That leaves plenty of room for progressing on three feat trees simultaneously, plus a few one-shotters.

So as I said, one would have to be either very new at the game or just plain dim to wait until they're level 12 and finish one tree and then start over again with a feat that begins a new tree.

[Kish]

Or, you know, not care that much about optimization, and have a roleplaying reason why his/her level 13 fighter is suddenly more interested in (say) archery than previously.

[JonestheSpy]

Now that's just crazy talk.

[Andorax]

Just as a mental exercise, I took up the challenge of "what would you give a fighter after 8th level to make him still better at killing things with a greatsword".

Rules:

1) All demonstrated Roy feats are assumed as part of the build, and nothing he is highly unlikely to have (nothing requiring an absurdly high Dex, for example).

2) All choices must apply to greatsword combat.

3) Non-core is permitted (it has been evidenced in other places that the characters are not bound by core).

4) Choices must be "high end"...ie, they have to require high BAB, be deeply placed on a tree that Roy could conceivably or demonstratably have, and illustrate that you aren't "starting over" after level 8.

5) Not all choices have to be "more damage". Choices that are applicable to self-defense and Roy taking less damage are also quite valid (and useful in the present circumstance).

To that end:

PHB:

Greater Specialization (BAB +12; obvious)

PHB2:

Melee Evasion (Dodge, Combat Expertice; replace AC with attack roll for 1 attack)

Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (BAB +8, Weapon Spec: Slashing weapon; untyped +2 atk/dmg)

Combat Tactician (BAB +12; damage bonus against a target that starts your turn outside of threat range)

Slashing Flurry (MWM Slashing, BAB +14; +1 attack as part of standard or full attack, with penalties to hit)

Defensive Sweep (BAB +15; AoO against foes that don't keep moving)


Complete Warrior:

Improved Toughness (Fort +2; more hps. Yes, this isn't high-end, but a fighter with feats to burn could buy this one easily at any vacant point in the build)

Power Critical (Focus, BAB +4; +4 to confirmation rolls. Again, not truly high-end, but only fighters get enough feats to spare on one like this).

Improved Combat Expertice (Combat Expertice, BAB +6; removes the +5/-5 cap)

Combat Brute (Improved Sunder, BAB +6; bonus damage vs bull rush targets, cleave into someone who's stuff you sundered, charge then power attack for even more damage)

Elusive Target (Mobility, BAB +6; Your dodge target gets no Power Attack bonus damage, free trip against someone who misses an AoO against you)

Shock Trooper (Imp. Bull Rush, Bab +6; Bull rush diagonally, knock multiples over, take PA penalties from your AC instead of your to-hit).

--------------------------

Combat Expertice is hardly an unheard-of choice due to Roy's Int, and could partly explain the amount of missing going on with two high-level, unarmored fighters.

Improved Combat Expertice could go even further to explain it. Combine that with fighting defensively and/or Melee Evasion to help take away Thog's first attack each round, and that can slow the fight down considerably (well established that this helps Roy). All potentially obtained by L6.

Melee Weapon Mastery helps take up some of the difference rage grants. Now we're talking about +4 atk/+6 dmg (Focus/Spec/MWM/GFocus/Gspec) versus Rage (+3 atk/+6 dmg)

Elusive Target could negate Thog's PA bonus damage when he does land hits, Improved Toughness helps him stay in there longer.

If the levels allow it, Defensive Sweep and Slashing Flurry means making two attacks to Thog's one, whether toe to toe or staying mobile.

And that's without getting into the extremly unlikely (spring attack tree, etc.) or obscure (Dragon magazine) feats and options...which couldn't honestly be called off-limits. Elan, after all, has a non-WOTC prestige class, not just a non-core one.

Not that Roy has ANY of the above feats...all of this is purely speculation


Long story short, there are options to make a straight-up fighter dedicated to one combat style continue to become still better at that style. You have to think outside the box (set of core rulebooks), but the options are there.

[Anxe]

Perhaps Roy will use that feat he learned from his Grandpa? Or one of the other five members of the Stick will come save him. Without one of those things happening I think Roy is going to lose. Not that losing is a bad option for the story. It's happened before.

[factotum]

Perhaps Roy will use that feat he learned from his Grandpa?

Why do people keep talking about that? The feat Roy learned from his grandfather is designed to disrupt a spellcaster's ability to cast spells. Unless Thog multiclassed to Wizard while he was off-panel, that feat is going to do precisely jack and squat to help Roy out here.

[Seerow]

3) Non-core is permitted (it has been evidenced in other places that the characters are not bound by core).


Out of curiosity, where is that? The only example I can think of is Elan's prestige class, which I'm not even certain is a real class as opposed to something the Giant made up. Regardless, non-core WotC products would likely be off limits to everyone in the story due to the lack of OGL applying to non-core products. Chances are the characters are restricted to SRD only simply because if they go beyond that, the Lawyers come after them.

[Aricandor]

Tsukiwhatever used Orb spells.

...

That's about the full extent of explicit non-core use I can remember off the top of my head.

[Andorax]

Non-Core:
orb spells
huecuva

Completely made up:
Dashing Swordsman
Titanium & Chlorine Elementals
(sure there are numerous other examples, those just immediately lept to mind)
Roy's mysterious grandpa-tutored anti-spellcaster feat.

Seems like precident enough that Roy's OTHER feat choices don't have to be bound to core-only choices.

[137beth]

Yes, but Combat Expertise would probably put Roy in a worse condition, because of the attack penalty. Also, what could partially offset rage in core? I'm drawing a blank here. :smallconfused:

Combat expertise could allow Roy to survive more easily until thog's rage wears off (though admittedly his rage could last quite awhile, at least 5-10 rounds). But is so far seems in the OOTS universe that the classes are a tad more balanced than they are in core, so who knows?

[derfenrirwolv]

Without going into extraneous detail, let me enlighten you with some simple math.

Your point isn't going to become true by insulting anyone.





The weapon focus tree, as a convenient example, takes up all of 4, 5 if you throw in Improved Critical - and those have to be spaced out as Our Hero gains levels, after level 4 they can't take another until level 8. That leaves plenty of room for progressing on three feat trees simultaneously, plus a few one-shotters.

I would like to see a build that does that, and one someone that's actually playing and leveling a character would take, rather than someone who's sitting down to make a 12th level fighter from scratch.



So as I said, one would have to be either very new at the game or just plain dim to wait until they're level 12 and finish one tree and then start over again with a feat that begins a new tree.

two things

1) Show me the build so you even get the tree right.

2) You're completely missing the forest here. The big picture is that in core the more feats you have the less useful each one becomes. As you take the few feats that are useful to you the remaining ones are more situational, less powerful, and can't be combined into the same action. (example, weapon focus Greatsword, weapon specialization great sword, are all usable in the same action. WF greatsword and wf bow are not) this means that Roy's extra feats are less useful than their sheer numbers would indicate.

[Gray Mage]

Combat expertise could allow Roy to survive more easily until thog's rage wears off (though admittedly his rage could last quite awhile, at least 5-10 rounds). But is so far seems in the OOTS universe that the classes are a tad more balanced than they are in core, so who knows?

The up to +5 to AC bonus? With Roy's probable current AC it's not going to help much, or even at all depending on Thog's PA. Even then I'd hardly call it a way to offset rage, but more of a way to offset attacks in general.

[JonestheSpy]

Ah, I think we're getting to the "better to walk away" stage, but stubborn is as stubborn does.


Your point isn't going to become true by insulting anyone.

Well, I certainly wasn't trying to be insulting, merely point out that simply counting up the number of feats should make the point without needing to do a whole dang build analysis. So much for that idea, though.



I would like to see a build that does that, and one someone that's actually playing and leveling a character would take, rather than someone who's sitting down to make a 12th level fighter from scratch.

Here, I have better idea - why don't you try and do so? I've played fighters plenty of times - I'm kind of getting the feeling you haven't. Just make an honest effort to build a fighter up from level 1 to 12 without having to "start over" with sucky feats, progressing up two or three feat trees simultaneously. I suspect you'll find it's not that hard. If you try and claim it's impossible, then I'll do it for you.

[derfenrirwolv]

Well, I certainly wasn't trying to be insulting


I'm not sure how to 'show' you that the majority of people who play fighters are not dumb or incredibly inexperienced (implying that i am dumb or inexperienced for building fighters in such a way that they have to start over)

Without going into extraneous detail, let me enlighten you with some simple math. (this is simple, you must be stupid for not understanding)


So as I said, one would have to be either very new at the game or just plain dim to wait until they're level 12 and finish one tree and then start over again with a feat that begins a new tree (what you did with your fighters makes you a dim wit. You are a dim wit)




merely point out that simply counting up the number of feats should make the point without needing to do a whole dang build analysis. So much for that idea, though.




Here, I have better idea - why don't you try and do so?

I don't see a core build that wouldn't start over around level 8 unless i was planning for level 12.


I've played fighters plenty of times - I'm kind of getting the feeling you haven't.

Whatever mechanism you're using to get that feeling is faulty

Just make an honest effort to build a fighter up from level 1 to 12 without having to "start over" with sucky feats (translation, you're not honestly trying)



progressing up two or three feat trees simultaneously. I suspect you'll find it's not that hard. If you try and claim it's impossible, then I'll do it for you.

I'll say it. Its impossible. Do it.

[JonestheSpy]

I don't think you've tried. Here, give it your best shot, post the attempt, explain why you think it sucks. Then I'll do it.

And no, I was not implying you are dumb, I was implying that you seem to be not too familiar with playing Core fighters and are therefore assuming automatic difficulties that actually aren't that hard to avoid.

[derfenrirwolv]

The whirlwind chain fighter

Human level 12 fighter

First: EWP spiked chain

Human: Combat reflexes

F1 Dodge

F2 Combat expertise

3rd Improved trip

F4 mobility

6th weapon focus spiked chain

F6 Spring attack

F8 Weapon spec. spiked chain

9th whirlwind attack

F10 Improved weapon focus

F12 Improved weapon specialization

12th Iron will.

And beyond?
????


-Why this build?-

i Since the purpose is to hold off the flat lining of a fighters power, i picked the most feat intensive build in core I've used. It not only uses the 5 feat whirlwind tree but since you have combat expertise anyway snatches improved trip. it also blows feats on exotic weapon prof. chain and combat reflexes. The chain allows you to take advantage of the 3.5 change to hit every opponent within REACH with the attack. Get a caster to put enlarge person on you and that's the entire room.

-why does this build suck?-

two reasons. A LOT of the gratification is delayed. You can play with it a bit and get the whirlwind attack at 6th, but then you hold off the combat reflexes till 9th. As a fighter, I find my primary job is to keep mooks away from the casters so they can let loose with the destruction unperturbed.

-even taking the abilities asap, you're still getting the abilities a level or 2 behind a more focused character. (weapon spec. 4 levels late for example)

While sitting down to play with this guy at level 12 was great, for the first 8 levels or so you kinda suck compared to your power attacking cleaving counterpart. That's a LOT of real world time with no guarantee that the campaign will get to the level where the build starts to shine and then stay there long enough to make up for the suckage.

The single target damage is fairly low. If you don't have a lot of mooks with the BBGED or multiple monsters in the encounter a lot of the abilities are wasted.

You STILL hit the wall at level 12. Sure, i can grab improved disarm or power attack but 1) those are 1st level abilities and 2) imp. disarm is redundant with improved trip. The build does a good job of delaying the inevitable, but it still happens.

Now. You've insulted my intelligence, you've insulted my ability, you've insulted my experience, and you've insulted my integrity. Lets see what you've got.

[JonestheSpy]

Sigh, alright already.

No, I wasn't insulting your intelligence. Really. And hey, I think the build you did would be just fine, especially in an OotS style campaign where large numbers of lower-level creatures are still frequent enemies.

Also, I think you're rather prejudiced about the usefulness of certain feats - just because you can get it at a low level doesn't mean it's not worth taking when you're higher up. Feats aren't spells. And no, Improved Trip does not make disarming redundant.

So here's what I'd do if I was playing a Roy-type fighter from the ground up, from 1 to 12.

1st level: WF (greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave
2nd: Combat Expertise
3rd: Improved Initiative
4th: WSp (greatsword)
6th: Great Cleave, Improved Disarm
8th: Improved Critical (greatsword)
9th: Greater WF (greatsword)
10th:Blind fight
12th: Greater WSp (greatsword), Improved Trip

There, everything useful, consistently worthwhile from beginning to end, especially in the already-referenced OotS-style/old school campaign where hordes of low-CR mooks are recurring threats. Moving up three feat trees simultaneously, and still plenty of useful feats to pick from later, especially if one can branch out of the SRD.

[derfenrirwolv]

Also, I think you're rather prejudiced about the usefulness of certain feats - just because you can get it at a low level doesn't mean it's not worth taking when you're higher up. Feats aren't spells.

Its worth taking because you don't have anything else to do with the feat.



And no, Improved Trip does not make disarming redundant.

They're both a usable vs humanoid inconvenience. Improved trip is nasty because of the bonuses you get vs a prone opponent and the AoO you get for standing up. Improved disarm is trading your multiple attacks for their multiple attacks unless you have an initiative order that puts an ally between you and your opponent or have a follower/companion that can fetch (My dragon disciple liked to use his weasel familiar for this) or you have a group that can work together (most of the ones I've been in have been of the origins of PC's well oiled machine variety)

Improved disarm has a few problems: at lower levels its not that useful because the difference between the main and backup weapon that they can draw for a move action is pretty minimal. it can also be pretty much negated by a locked gauntlet. Its also very situational: you can't disarm things that hit you with their fists, claws, teeth, horns, hooves, spells, special abilities, breath weapons, gaze attacks, grappling....


So here's what I'd do if I was playing a Roy-type fighter from the ground up, from 1 to 12.

1st level: WF (greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave
2nd: Combat Expertise
3rd: Improved Initiative (1st level ability)
4th: WSp (greatsword)
6th: Great Cleave, Improved Disarm (second level ability)
8th: Improved Critical (greatsword)
9th: Greater WF (greatsword)
10th:Blind fight (1st level ability)
12th: Greater WSp (greatsword), Improved Trip (1-3 level ability)



There, everything useful, consistently worthwhile from beginning to end, especially in the already-referenced OotS-style/old school campaign where hordes of low-CR mooks are recurring threats. Moving up three feat trees simultaneously

and runs smack into the problems we said would happen. You have feats that you can't use at the same time

power attack doesn't work with expertise, improved disarm, improved trip

Improved disarm and improved trip can't be used together.

Improved disarm doesn't work with specialization.

the cleaves don't work with improved disarm

Its like being a mystic theurge (a class i like btw) is embedded in the fighters' dna. Each additional feat adds versatility but not raw power. That's why a simpler numeric comparison between X feats + barbarian powers and Y feats. You could easily build the same feats around finishing off one tree sooner to get the same effect. You've just spead out the delay of gratification.

You took combat expertise at second level, but you need to wait FOUR levels to go into the next branch of the tree with improved disarm and even longer to finish it out with improved trip. That's a long time to wait to get any use out of a second level feat rather than grabbing something that will pay off now. How much IRL time is that in the campaigns you play in? Its the difference i pointed out between playing a character and building one.

Power attack and expertise don't work together. (not that expertise works...) power attack and



and still plenty of useful feats to pick from later,

such as?

[JonestheSpy]

You know what, if you think that all one's feats have to be able to work with all the other feats to be useful, I just think you have ridiculously high expectations from the mechanics. And you clearly predisposed to find fault with every feat instead of looking at its possibilities - using Improved Disarm to take away a caster's wand or spell components, for instance. Just because something isn't applicable in every circumstance doesn't mean it's not useful.

This conversation has obviously been a waste of time. Can't stop a hater from hatin'.

[derfenrirwolv]

You know what, if you think that all one's feats have to be able to work with all the other feats to be useful, I just think you have ridiculously high expectations from the mechanics.[quote]

Thog elegant in thog's simplicity.

What i said was the truth. Fighters do not manage to be linear.

[QUOTE]

And you clearly predisposed to find fault with every possible feat instead of looking at it's benefits

ad hom. Refute the problems I've pointed out rather than insisting that I'm seeing problems because there's something wrong with me.



using Improved Disarm to take away a caster's wand or spell components, for instance.

You cannot disarm the pouch, as it is secured to the wizards person.

3.5 srd You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.



Holding an action to disarm the component from their hand as they draw it is useless, because drawing the component is a non action and there's nothing to prevent the caster from simply drawing another one as a non action.


This conversation has obviously been a waste of time. Can't stop a hater from hatin'.

People can disagree with your point for other reasons than emotions. Facts, reason, and evidence for example.

[Snails]

You are exaggerating wildly, and your analysis rests on the assumptions (or conclusions) that are contrary to my experience.

For example, Power Attack and Improved Trip have very powerful synergies. If your Attack Bonus is sufficient to employ PA against this opponent, and if you have high enough Str to be using Trip, then you absolutely should be using both at the same time.

In fact, I have seen sequence employed by a very tactically savvy player dozens of times: charge minion standing next to Big Bad, apply Power Attack (-5 to hit, +10) damage, Improved Trip against minion, Trip success, hit & kill prone minion, Cleave, Improved Trip against Big Bad, trip Big Bad, hit prone Big Bad.

You denigrate some feats as "1st level" when their value is proportional to the combatants involved. Thus they are easily "linear or better". (Of course, merely linear is not actually good enough, but that is another topic.)

Iron Will gives you a 10% of nullifying Sleep... or Dominate Monster cast by an Arch-Lich.

Blind-fight gives the ability to partially nullify Mirror Image or Displacement. In fact, Blind-fight is very attractive to a melee specialist when facing Mirror Image + Displacement -- a trick you can expect to see regularly at high levels.

Improved Initiative is a great feat for any character who values offense over defense. That would apply to many melee specialists, but not all.

[derfenrirwolv]

[QUOTE=Snails;11159603]You are exaggerating wildly, and your analysis rests on the assumptions that are contrary to my experience.

For example, Power Attack and Improved Trip have very powerful synergies. If your Attack Bonus is sufficient to employ PA against this opponent, and if you have high enough Str to be using Trip, then you absolutely should be using both at the same time.



alright, that's one possible synergy i missed. How about the rest of it? your case rests on disproving one thing i said (and i think you did a good job of that) but doesn't make the entire thing a wild exaggeration.

Where's the synergy between disarm and trip? Wheres the synergy between Power attack and disarm? Combat expertise and power attack?


You denigrate some feats as "1st level" when their value is proportional to the combatants involved. Thus they are easily "linear or better". (Of course, merely linear is not actually good enough, but that is another topic.)

Blindfight is highly situational. Its great when it comes up, but the rest of the time its not helping you at all. Its a perfect example of what i said about gaining versatility without gaining power.




Iron Will gives you a 10% of nullifying Sleep... or Dominate Monster cast by an Arch-Lich.

A flat 10% that's linear at best.



Improved Initiative is a great feat for any character who values offense over defense. That would apply to many melee specialists, but not all.

Its a good feat, but +4 probably isn't going to make much of a difference at higher levels. Sometimes you're better off letting the monster come to you and then full attacking it rather than waste your move (and thus full attack) to get to the monster sooner.

[Snails]

Blindfight is highly situational. Its great when it comes up, but the rest of the time its not helping you at all. Its a perfect example of what i said about gaining versatility without gaining power.

On one hand, I do get your drift.

On the other hand, I am not sure it is relevant. Do I care if, say, a Wizard wants to complain that having prepared both Fireball and Cloudkill is so situational? Or that Invisibility and Scorching Ray have only weak synergy?

PCs have strengths and weaknesses. It is the situational "texture" of the character, how it fits with the rest of the party, how it fares in the particular encounter the DM throws at the party that makes D&D a tactically interesting stew.

If a Fighter could actually buy 20 feats that gave him nothing but pure power that stacked up much better than linearly in a very straightforward manner, that would probably actually suck as a game. Is a perfectly boring one note character something worth encouraging?

The real question is whether the Fighter class hits a wall where he gets notably diminishing returns relative to the power ups of other classes.

If we stick to pure Core, I would actually agree that such a wall sort of exists.

Then the question becomes where is that wall.

The fact is that any style Fighter has at least 6-7 superb quality, no brainer feats that stack up beautifully. If we are sticking to pure Core, depending on your style, there are probably another 3-4 feats that are also approximately as superb -- some of these may be situational (e.g. I love Improved Trip but it may not be reliable enough against a dragon).

Yeah, I think pure Core pure Fighters see a little fading past level 12. But that does depend on the campaign. And adding a few choice non-Core feats into the game can push that wall out indefinitely.

But this just does not make any sense to me...


I don't see a core build that wouldn't start over around level 8 unless i was planning for level 12.

Really? You going to grab Greater Weapon Specialization and then you are plain out of good ideas for the PHB feats?

And this...

Its a good feat, but +4 probably isn't going to make much of a difference at higher levels.

Actually it has an approximately 20% chance of helping at 1st level and an approximately 20% chance of helping at 20th level. The key difference being that combats are potentially over much faster at higher levels, thus the bad luck of going the very last in a combat is more likely to be fatal.

[Thanatosia]

On the other hand, I am not sure it is relevant. Do I care if, say, a Wizard wants to complain that having prepared both Fireball and Cloudkill is so situational? Or that Invisibility and Scorching Ray have only weak synergy?
Really bad comparison. One is a temporary allocation of plentiful resources (spell slots), the other is a permanent allocation of rare resources (feats).

[Snails]

The point still holds.

It is well nigh inevitable that Wizards will have a portion of the primary resource pool turn out to be useless due to situational effects.

And we can debate also how lousy the feat Spell Penetration is, because it merely increases versatilty without increasing power. Boo. Hoo.

The "problem" exists for all characters. It may be more mechanically obvious with the Fighter class, but it does not necessarily follow that the Fighter suffers to an unreasonable degree, or to a significantly greater degree than most other classes.

[Gurgeh]

It is well nigh inevitable that Wizards will have a portion of the primary resource pool turn out to be useless due to situational effects.
But (the usual suspects instantly declaim!) that's only if that situation is over before the wizard has time to rest and prepare new spells.

The sorcerer's spell selection is a much closer analogue to the fighter's bonus feats, and its permanent (and limited) nature is one of the big reasons the munchkins tend to consider the sorcerer to be essentially inferior to the wizard.

[Kish]

But (the usual suspects instantly declaim!) that's only if that situation is over before the wizard has time to rest and prepare new spells.
Whenever I see that argument, I get this image of a lot of people for whom adventuring is something done for 15-minute intervals between resting for eight hours, and I shake my head. What do we call that game--Snoozing and Spellcasting? Beds and Blasting?

[derfenrirwolv]

The point still holds.

It is well nigh inevitable that Wizards will have a portion of the primary resource pool turn out to be useless due to situational effects.

Its much less noticeable for the wizard because it is in reality a much smaller problem.

1) As someone else pointed out, a wizards main resource pool changes on a daily basis.

2) the wizard has a much larger resource pool, if 3/4 of his resource pool can't be brought to bear the other 1/4 is usually still pretty big.

3) For really odd situations the wizard can pack a scroll in advance. You can store the spell "banish blue flamenco dancing flamingo demon" on a scroll and save it until you come across one.

4) The wizards available pool can be pretty versatile. The same summon monster spell can help you spot an invisible creature, dig through rock, kill an iron gloem, dig through rock, or heal your companions.


And we can debate also how lousy the feat Spell Penetration is, because it merely increases versatilty without increasing power. Boo. Hoo.

At the level where you're most likely to take it the situation comes up roughly every other fight.

[Snails]

Its much less noticeable for the wizard because it is in reality a much smaller problem.

1) As someone else pointed out, a wizards main resource pool changes on a daily basis.

2) the wizard has a much larger resource pool, if 3/4 of his resource pool can't be brought to bear the other 1/4 is usually still pretty big.

Even a pretty boring Human Fighter 12 brings to bear 75% or more of his 13 feats virtually every single fight. The complaint against Core fighters boils down to the belief that not employing a minimum of 11 or 12 of these precious feats every single fight is a crippling design flaw.

While there is a kernel of truth in the sentiment, in full context, it is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Every competently played Wizard faces the same kind of problem. It just so happens that how badly the Wizard will fares on his spell choices on this adventuring day could theoretically vary between 0% and 100%. Unless the DM decides to hand the PCs a perfect scouting report on what they will face in the next day, the problem will be real enough for the Wizard, too.

IME it is pretty normal for even well played Wizards to be declare "I am done, today. My remaining spells are not good enough for what we are up against," with somewhere between 20% and 50% of spell slots still unused. It happens. The fact that it happens to the Wizard differently every single day does not make the problem any less real.

[derfenrirwolv]

Even a pretty boring Human Fighter 12 brings to bear 75% or more of his 13 feats virtually every single fight.

Oh hell no.

First off, the more boring characters are the ones that use more of their feats more often. The more complex, tricky, and interesting you try to make the fighter the less often he gets to use most of his toys.


1st level: WF (greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave - Wf greatsword will be in effect ALMOST constantly. Power attack might be. Cleave is at the discretion of the DM and gets less useful at higher levels because it takes more rounds for a fighter to kill things (Hit points scale faster than hit point damage)


2nd: Combat Expertise- used infrequently if ever because monster hit outpaces AC by a fair margin.

3rd: Improved Initiative- technically used every fight

4th: WSp (greatsword) Constant.


6th: Great Cleave- At the DM's discretion.

Improved Disarm- Questionable at best at low levels: you're trading your attack action for your opponents move action. (also varied wildly depending on if the dm lets you retrive an item from an adjacent square or if you have to be in the square to retrieve it) Less and less useful at higher levels as fewer monsters use weapons and the ones that do tend to be larger, stronger, and harder to disarm. Also rendered fairly in effective by the investment in a cheap locked gauntlet.

8th: Improved Critical (greatsword) - Only useful against things that can be critted. Gets less and less useful as you level and more monsters become crit immune.


9th: Greater WF (greatsword)- always on.

10th:Blind fight- only useful vs dark/invisible blurry opponents. Completely depends on the dm.

12th: Greater WSp (greatsword) - always on

Improved Trip- Awesome when it works, less and less useful as you level. Does not work against flying opponents (which become more common as you level) . Is highly unreliable against large and bigger creatures and quadrupeds. (or sextupeds or millipedes)






The complaint against Core fighters boils down to the belief that not employing a minimum of 11 or 12 of these precious feats every single fight is a crippling design flaw.

My complaints are that

1) more feats give diminishing returns.

2) the improvements aren't even linear. the casting classes are quadratic (to the point that the druid makes a better melee fighter than the fighter and the druids PET can make a better melee fighter than the fighter if outdoors)

3) the feats themselves don't scale/get less useful. I've had very frustrating experiences trying to play whirlwind fighters and high level trippers.



While there is a kernel of truth in the sentiment, in full context, it is making a mountain out of a mole hill.



If anything I'm understating it.


Every competently played Wizard faces the same kind of problem. It just so happens that how badly the Wizard will fares on his spell choices on this adventuring day could theoretically vary between 0% and 100%. Unless the DM decides to hand the PCs a perfect scouting report on what they will face in the next day, the problem will be real enough for the Wizard, too.

The only time i've come close to doing that with a high level wizard was when the wizards pre used 60% of his spells buffing the party at breakfast. After that you have wands and scrolls, and in my case a fun polymorph tensers transformation combo.




IME it is pretty normal for even well played Wizards to be declare "I am done, today. My remaining spells are not good enough for what we are up against," with somewhere between 20% and 50% of spell slots still unused. It happens. The fact that it happens to the Wizard differently every single day does not make the problem any less real.

How many encounters are you going through before hitting that point?

[Thanatosia]

And we can debate also how lousy the feat Spell Penetration is, because it merely increases versatilty without increasing power. Boo. Hoo.
How many people think of 'feat progression' as the main advantage to being a caster?

How important is feat progression to a fighter by comparison?

The comparisons are flawed and bad.

[Gurgeh]

How many encounters are you going through before hitting that point?
Naturally, this is where every wizard debate ends up going.

Me, I prefer a long adventuring day. Our DM usually hits us with a minimum of three combat encounters a day - more often five or six, with quite a bit of non-combat interaction on top of that.

I play a Mystic Theurge - a veritable font of versatility, if not power - and my character frequently finds himself out of useful ways to contribute to a combat (i.e., spells) well ahead of any designated "party rests now" time. Since his cleric levels are using the cloistered cleric variant, he's a pretty good skillmonkey outside combat, so he's always able to help with some knowledge checks (or survival, or diplomacy, or spellcraft, or sense motive, or heal...) but his domination of the battlefield doesn't last all day.

[Snails]

Yeah, Whirlwind Attack is a "sucker's bet" in most campaigns. I do not blame you for you error -- it is one that I could have easily made years ago as well. But yours is an extreme position, contrary to my experience.

A human Fighter 9 can be using 7 of 10 feats on extremely solid options (Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical), and there are still excellent feats to choose from. There may be mechanical problems for a pure Core Fighter, but there surely are not significant until later levels, and the problem can be alleviated by cracking open some other books.

I am getting the feeling this is really an anti-non-spellcaster issue on the other side of this debate, rather than anything specific about the Fighter.

If "versatility instead of power" is such an inescapable problem for an 8th level Fighter, it surely must apply to other classes as well. Apparently I am not allowed to apply this logic to any spellcaster. So surely every melee class in the PHB must suck -- all that is left to debate is at what level they become hopelessly hapless.

[Snails]

How many people think of 'feat progression' as the main advantage to being a caster?

How important is feat progression to a fighter by comparison?

The comparisons are flawed and bad.

Either "versatility, but not more power" is a compelling description of a flaw, or it is not. If it is a flaw, it applies to more than just the Fighter.

Paladins and melee Rangers and Monks are like Fighters, except with less power and more versatility. Do they suck also?

[Seerow]

Paladins and melee Rangers and Monks are like Fighters, except with less power and more versatility. Do they suck also?


In core? Yes. They all suck terribly. Outside of core, Monks still suck terribly (worse than Fighters even), but Paladins and Rangers get some nice unique spells that help prop them up and at least make them viable (The Ranger more than the Paladin)

[derfenrirwolv]

Either "versatility, but not more power" is a compelling description of a flaw, or it is not. If it is a flaw, it applies to more than just the Fighter.

Two thiings

1) It doesn't apply to the wizard because they get versitility AND more power. Its not an either/or option.

2) Versatility is power but, if we could go back to my original point, it is not a linear increase in power. I'm not saying its not power, I'm not saying its ultimate power, I'm saying that at the level the fighter has versatility it gives an increase but its returns are highly diminishing.

I don't know that rangers and pallies have less power. They have fewer feats but how you include feats into the progression is kind of the point here.

[derfenrirwolv]

A human Fighter 9



My entire position here has been that after level 8 you run into some pretty heavy Diminishing returns (thanks to the above poster for reminding me of the term i was trying to express) so that a comparison of Roy's 13 feats vs Thogs 5 feats was more complicated than a simple numbers game. I don't think an examination of a level 9 fighter helps to make that point, especially when Roy's probably around level 12.

[JonestheSpy]

In core? Yes. They all suck terribly. They aren't very effective in that style of game favored by optimizers that doesn't resemble the way combat occurs within the story of the OotS much at all.

Fixed that for you.

[Seerow]

Fixed that for you.

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing game mechanics, not rule of plot. Yes, in the comic Fighters and Rangers and multiclass Paladins/Monks can be viable and strong combatants. But we weren't discussing what happens in comic, we were discussing actual games.

In game mechanics terms, all of the core martial classes a objectively terrible, mostly due to lacking the ability to do anything other than damage, and having piss poor mobility options making it hard for them to even do that in a large variety of encounters without outside support.

Outside of core, Paladins and Rangers pick up some new nice options via their spells, letting them catchup and be viable, if not the best of options, but Monks are still terrible, and Fighters are still only good at one thing at a time, though they can at least manage to hyper specialize in that one thing.

[JonestheSpy]

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing game mechanics, not rule of plot. Yes, in the comic Fighters and Rangers and multiclass Paladins/Monks can be viable and strong combatants. But we weren't discussing what happens in comic, we were discussing actual games.


See, you're doing that thing optimizers do when they assume everyone must play like them or they're doing it wrong.

This may come as a horrible shock to you, but there are plenty of actual campaigns out there where melee classes do just fine, and this here comic strip is not a bad portrayal of that type of game.

[Seerow]

See, you're doing that thing optimizers do when they assume everyone must play like them or they're doing it wrong.

This may come as a horrible shock to you, but there are plenty of actual campaigns out there where melee classes do just fine, and this here comic strip is not a bad portrayal of that type of game.

I've played in as many (or more) low op games as I have high op games. Even in a low op game, the lack of mobility options at the very least is very keenly felt (and has been shown as a problem at least once in OotS). The lack of alternate attack options is felt keenly against any number of higher level opponents especially in a low op game, where you don't have the damage throughput to drop enemies in 1-2 rounds, and debuffing is more useful.


Unless by low op you mean that the cleric plays a healbot, the wizard does nothing but blast, and everything attacks the fighter while ignoring the squishies because that's the fighter's job... but not even OotS goes that far. Durkon uses Righteous Might and mixes it up in melee when needed, Druids do their Druidzilla thing soloing half the party, and V is slowly weaning himself off blasty spells and using more utility/buffing spells.

[JonestheSpy]

Perhaps instead of trying to second guess what I mean, you could read the strip again and have an idea what I mean. You may notice, for instance, that though Durkon does use Righteous Might, Roy and Belkar have somehow not become obsolete.

[Seerow]

Perhaps instead of trying to second guess what I mean, you could read the strip again and have an idea what I mean. You may notice, for instance, that though Durkon does use Righteous Might, Roy and Belkar have somehow not become obsolete.

And that's going back to "This is a comic strip following the rule of drama and not how actual games work". The comic has situations that parallel those in the actual game, but does not follow them strictly, because it would be a boring comic if half the main characters were useless.

I have made the argument that even in a low op game the core fighting classes lack the mobility and versatility to be viable, using character archtypes in the strip as a reference for what is considered low op. You are trying to extrapolate that to the strip itself doesn't show them as constantly left with no viable options so that doesn't actually happen. That is a leap in logic that's not valid.

[Kish]

Guys? If you're discussing something that has nothing to do with OotS, could you please take it to the Gaming forum instead of this one?

[Shahadet]

Guys? If you're discussing something that has nothing to do with OotS, could you please take it to the Gaming forum instead of this one?

I second this vote - please get your gaming mechanics "Fighters/melee types stink in 3.5 and aren't as good as spellcasters" discussion out of this sub-forum. It has quite obviously devolved away from OotS, as noted by the way Seerow dismisses JonestheSpy's attempt at using the comic strip as an example for anything.

On a personal side note to the "At high levels, all the other classes that don't cast spells stink in 3.5",.....
.... all I have to say is "Well, DUH! Go play 4th ed if you want, as Giant would put it, 'Strangely Balanced Invaders from another Dimension'."