Role for a Binder? [3.5]

[Private-Prinny]

I'm currently playing a Binder in a large (8 people including myself) RL group, and we just hit level 3. As a human, my first two feats were Improved Binding and Expel Vestige, which I don't regret at all, but the next feat puts me one step closer to falling into a role, and I want to make sure it's one where I can contribute.

The party is composed of:

Binder (Me)
Favored Soul
Bard (plans on going Sublime Chord and taking Snowflake Wardance)
Rogue
Duskblade
Scout/Healer (The player has two different characters, not one multiclassed abomination)
Samurai
Barbarian

The Favored Soul and the Bard switch off the DM's seat, so only one of them is active at a time. Only one of the Scout/Healer duo is active at a time as well.

I plan on my final build being either Binder 12/Vestige Summoner 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171823) or Binder 7/KotSS 5/Vestige Summoner 8, but I don't know what I should do when I'm not ripping otherworldly beings from beyond the void.

Any suggestions?

[Veyr]

I'm worried about your intra-party balance, but...

It seems likely you should be maybe going a bit more casterly. You've got skillmonkeys and BSFs out the wazoo, so less need to focus on those. Unfortunately, healing/arcaning are the two things that the Binder does less-than-well, but you can probably make do...

An interesting idea would be to take Metabreath feats to go along with Amon's Fire Breath, and later Focalor's and Orthos's. Entangling Exhalation is the obvious choice.

In case you were unaware of it, The Consolidated Binder Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook) has a lot of ideas. Just skim it for non-skill/non-melee things to do; there's quite a few.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'd definitely take a look at what Veyr suggested, since I know binders do extremely well at melee combat. I personally love using Focalor and whatever the other vestige is that slaps -2 on saves to help out the casters, being a sort of support-y caster myself.

That said, the breath idea ain't a bad one. Stack the various breath vestiges and just check out all of the metabreath feats and go nuts!

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm worried about your intra-party balance, but...


Doesn't strike me as too bad. I mean, the Samurai and the Healer could probably use a judicious application of That Damn Crab and maybe re-roll in classes that aren't painful to look at, but apart from those two, it isn't too bad.

Two in Tier 2, two in Tier 3, three in Tier 4, and two in Tier Useless 5.

Huh. Now that I look at it, it seems a bit wonky. I stand corrected, Veyr. Perhaps the Tier 2 players could bump down to Tier 3. That would fix pretty much any balance issues, so long as Samurai/Healer get their butts in gear and play classes that don't suck.

[zagan]

Someone want to play my class, I'm so proud. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway on feat choice, well you'll need rapid pact making to qualify later but in the meantime I'll advise against something that relly on some vestiges granted abilities to use because once summoned that feat become useless.
Debuffing can be a very good binder strategy with a fair number of vestiges that use aura that reduce your foe saves. So feat that capitalize on that might work, you get intimidate as class skill and you need it for rapid pact making so working with that might be nice. Sadly Imperious Command (DoTU p50) isn't avaiable until 6th level (well 5th but you don't get a feat at this level). Intimidating Strike (PHBII p79) isn't great but allow you to not waste an action to intimidate a foe (until or unless you have acces to a fearsome armor (DoTU p97)).
If you want to go KoSS, and it's not a bad choice, you'll need weapon focus. It's a very poor feat but the class is worth it.
Ignore special requirement can be really useful too, perhaps sudden ability focus for the one time you really want an enemy to fail a save and it's useful with nearly all vestige.
Anyway good luck with your character.

[Veyr]

Doesn't strike me as too bad. I mean, the Samurai and the Healer could probably use a judicious application of That Damn Crab and maybe re-roll in classes that aren't painful to look at, but apart from those two, it isn't too bad.

Two in Tier 2, two in Tier 3, three in Tier 4, and two in Tier Useless 5.

Huh. Now that I look at it, it seems a bit wonky. I stand corrected, Veyr. Perhaps the Tier 2 players could bump down to Tier 3. That would fix pretty much any balance issues, so long as Samurai/Healer get their butts in gear and play classes that don't suck.
Three Tier 2's, if the Binder can use Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) (at least, once he hits 10th) — a Sublime Chord is definitely a Tier 2, not a Tier 3 as a normal Bard. Though I suppose only two Tier 2's will be in play at a time.

I see a rather large gap between Tiers 3 and 4, myself, but that may be personal preference there. I'm surprised to see the Scout as Tier 4, too... might be something I'm missing there.


I mean, it's not the end of the world. The Tier 2's are DMing, so they probably know what's going on and won't overshadow everything. I agree that it's the Samurai and Healer that look most problematic, but like I said, I'd also be worried about the Scout and the Rogue if he's not pumping UMD.

[Cieyrin]

Three Tier 2's, if the Binder can use Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) (at least, once he hits 10th) — a Sublime Chord is definitely a Tier 2, not a Tier 3 as a normal Bard. Though I suppose only two Tier 2's will be in play at a time.

I see a rather large gap between Tiers 3 and 4, myself, but that may be personal preference there. I'm surprised to see the Scout as Tier 4, too... might be something I'm missing there.


I mean, it's not the end of the world. The Tier 2's are DMing, so they probably know what's going on and won't overshadow everything. I agree that it's the Samurai and Healer that look most problematic, but like I said, I'd also be worried about the Scout and the Rogue if he's not pumping UMD.

The samurai may not be quite as bad as perceived, as it depends on whether we're talking the CW version or the OA version, which is the superior choice.

[Veyr]

Oh, true. I haven't read it but the OA version's supposed to be a lot better.

[Cog]

The samurai may not be quite as bad as perceived, as it depends on whether we're talking the CW version or the OA version, which is the superior choice.
OA Samurai is basically just a Fighter with restricted feat access and easier access to magic weapon upgrades.

[Private-Prinny]

The inter-party balance actually isn't too bad, since the only people who even remotely try to optimize are the bard player and myself. I also cannot use Zceryll (much to my disappointment).

And about that Samurai... funny story... it's the CW version...

Anyway, I'll probably go with Focalor for unlimited power!!! since metabreath feats would require an outside dip to actually be able to use (vestiges don't qualify you for feats).

[subject42]

I also cannot use Zceryll (much to my disappointment).

It's a shame you can't use Zceryll. I used Zceryll + Haures to create a character that played up the fact that binder effects are supernatural, and therefore it's not obvious that the Binder is creating them.

He never explicitly acted like the effects of either vestige were his doing. When asked, he was just "lucky".

[Veyr]

unlimited power!!![/B] since metabreath feats would require an outside dip to actually be able to use (vestiges don't qualify you for feats).
Says CustServ; RAW they definitely do. You might double-check that one.

[Grendus]

And about that Samurai... funny story... it's the CW version...

Uhh... well... if he optimizes the hell out of it, CW Samurai can hit T4. Pump intimidate like there's no tomorrow and they make decent debuffers. You just need to show him how to reroll optimize that abomination.

[Thurbane]

From the OP, sounds like the party really needs an area control/debuffer specialist, and with the right vestiges, a Binder can definitely fill this roll (although not was well as some full casters, obviously).

Is your race set? If you want to go down the breath weapon route without needing a dip (if you go with the cust serv ruling), you could consider Dragonborn. This would also open up a bunch of feats that require dragonblood subtype, that might be useful. +2 CON, -2 DEX isn't a bad payoff for a Binder (dependant on base race, of course).

[Private-Prinny]

My base race is human, so I'd lose a feat and skill points, and Dragonborn would be hard to justify based on the fact that my character does not like deities.

[Greenish]

The samurai may not be quite as bad as perceived, as it depends on whether we're talking the CW version or the OA version, which is the superior choice."Superior" in the sense of being better than the CW samurai, not in the sense of actually being any good as a class. Nifty skill list and 4+int/level skillpoints might drag it to tier 5, tops.