Does he get an Attack of Opportunity?

[Macrado]

PC wizard cast Daze on a creature successfully, but he did so in a threatened square.

Daze has a 1 round duration.

On the wizard's next turn, can he move out of that square without provoking an attack of opportunity?

The argument is whether the Daze effect ends when the wizard's turn begins or when the wizard's turn ends. If the daze effect remains, then he can move out safely, but if it doesn't remain, then an AoO would be provoked.

For now, I ruled in favor of the wizard, but I'm not sure if that's the right call.

Thoughts?

[Douglas]

Technically, I don't think an AoO even counts as an action in the first place so Daze would never prevent it.

[RndmNumGen]

Technically, I don't think an AoO even counts as an action in the first place so Daze would never prevent it.

Wouldn't an AoO be an Immediate Action?

[Zaq]

Wouldn't an AoO be an Immediate Action?

Very emphatically no. An immediate action is totally different. An AoO is usually no action.

[holywhippet]

I'm pretty sure an AoO is an action since it is listed under the Actions In Combat section of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

I'd lean towards the enemy not being able to attack as the enemy would have had an AoO while the wizard was casting the spell which means the duration ends sometime during their turn.

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure an AoO is an action since it is listed under the Actions In Combat section of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

I'd lean towards the enemy not being able to attack as the enemy would have had an AoO while the wizard was casting the spell which means the duration ends sometime during their turn.

Check pg. 8 of the Rules Compendium. It's listed under the "No Action" table, right next to the 5-foot step, delay, and so on.

[Douglas]

I'm pretty sure an AoO is an action since it is listed under the Actions In Combat section of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm
I just checked, and every last mention of AoOs in that entire section is specifically about whether or not some other action provokes them, not about AoOs themselves.

Attacks of Opportunity have their own section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm), which says nothing about it being an action.

[Veyr]

That may be true by RAW, but it does seem kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, regardless, I am interested about the RAW on durations: is it the beginning or the end of the Wizard's turn? I'm inclined to say beginning, personally.

[holywhippet]

AoO's are stated as being a melee attack. A melee attack is an action - what kind of action is hard to say since the SRD says "Making an attack is a standard action." I'd say you could class it as a standard action, but it's a special case which can occur more than once in a round (with combat reflexes).

[Zaq]

AoO's are stated as being a melee attack. A melee attack is an action - what kind of action is hard to say since the SRD says "Making an attack is a standard action." I'd say you could class it as a standard action, but it's a special case which can occur more than once in a round (with combat reflexes).

The Rules Compendium lists it as "No Action" on page 8. Quite simply, good sir, you are wrong.

[Douglas]

AoO's are stated as being a melee attack. A melee attack is an action - what kind of action is hard to say since the SRD says "Making an attack is a standard action." I'd say you could class it as a standard action, but it's a special case which can occur more than once in a round (with combat reflexes).
One option for a standard action is a melee attack. That does not mean that all melee attacks are standard actions.

Rules Compendium explicitly puts AoOs under the "No Action" category.

[Sir_Wulf]

I don't have my books handy to document my reasons, but I'm confident that the daze effect ends when the wizard's turn ends. An Attack of Opportunity requires the person making the attack to make a decision, thus would be prevented by daze.

While an Attack of Opportunity isn't a defined action, by definition, it happens during another person's turn. That suggests it could be considered as an immediate action.

[Vladislav]

A spell with a duration of 1 round expires just before the caster's next action. I don't actually have the source for that, but I specifically remember seeing it somewhere. So the target becomes un-dazed just before the wizard's move and can AoO.

[Zaq]

I don't have my books handy to document my reasons, but I'm confident that the daze effect ends when the wizard's turn ends. An Attack of Opportunity requires the person making the attack to make a decision, thus would be prevented by daze.

While an Attack of Opportunity isn't a defined action, by definition, it happens during another person's turn. That suggests it could be considered as an immediate action.

Except that it's not. An immediate action is something very specific, and it's not that. You only get one immediate action per round, and taking it eats your next round's swift action. Taking AoOs has no effect on your immediates or your swifts.

Yes, the terminology is awkward, but it's not that bad.

[Forged Fury]

Hmmm...

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.So, the common denominator is threatened square. Let's see what that says...

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.So, in order to threaten a square, you have to be able to make a melee attack into it... which you cannot do when you're dazed since you cannot act. Regardless of whether an AoO is "not an action", you can't even get to the point of arguing that unless you threaten a square (which you don't when you're dazed).

Edit: Also, Rules Compendium's definition of Not An Action is:

NOT AN ACTION
Some activities are so minor that they aren’t even considered
free actions. They literally don’t take any time
at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing
something else.When you're dazed, you can't do anything else, so it seems that you can't even take "Not An Action"

[gallagher]

more of speculation than an argument for the rules, but a dazed creature cant make a melee attack in the first place. i know that logic doesnt really apply to dnd, but i can not imagine being able to make an attack of opportunity when i couldnt attack in the first place

[Grendus]

That said, the daze wears off the instant before the wizard's turn, and he threatens the wizard's square again.

The Wizard gets AoO'd.

[holywhippet]

That said, the daze wears off the instant before the wizard's turn, and he threatens the wizard's square again.

The Wizard gets AoO'd.

That's the thing I'm suspicious about. The wizard would have granted his enemy an AoO when casting daze in the first place. Presuming it didn't hit or interrupt the spell it would then stop the enemy from taking any actions. If it wore off just as the wizards next turn began, it would mean the wizard would be vulnerable to a second AoO when they tried moving away. To me that would mean the spell didn't work for a full round since it was only working from the end of the wizards last turn to the start of the new one.

[Macrado]

Hmmm...
So, the common denominator is threatened square. Let's see what that says...
So, in order to threaten a square, you have to be able to make a melee attack into it... which you cannot do when you're dazed since you cannot act. Regardless of whether an AoO is "not an action", you can't even get to the point of arguing that unless you threaten a square (which you don't when you're dazed).

Edit: Also, Rules Compendium's definition of Not An Action is:
When you're dazed, you can't do anything else, so it seems that you can't even take "Not An Action"

This is the logic I used to determine that a dazed creature doesn't get an attack of opportunity. Since he can't make a melee attack into any squares, then he doesn't threaten any squares, and thus doesn't get any attacks of opportunity.

Further, the creature only gets one AoO per turn, so I agree with the idea that he wouldn't get another one before the end of the wizard's turn.

I'm surprised at the debate this stirred up :-)

[Greenish]

Further, the creature only gets one AoO per turn, so I agree with the idea that he wouldn't get another one before the end of the wizard's turn.There are two turns. One where the wizard casts, then the later one where the wizard moves.

[Veyr]

Yeah, even if he's Dazed in between, he's had a turn and his AoO's for the round have refreshed in between the two Wizard turns.

[Pigkappa]

The Rules Compendium lists it as "No Action" on page 8. Quite simply, good sir, you are wrong.

Does anyone really prefer this total nonsense to some basic common sense while playing?

I mean, a dazed creature can't attack someone who is unconscious (unless being unconscious provokes AoOs, but I don't think so), but he can attack someone who moves away from him?

[Forged Fury]

Does anyone really prefer this total nonsense to some basic common sense while playing?
I think (hope?) that it was simply an exercise in the convoluted reading of RAW. Incidentally, by the hyper-contextualized reading, a stunned opponent who is a monk, has improved unarmed strike, armor spikes, a locked gauntlet, or natural weapons would also be able to make an AoO.

[Greenish]

Does anyone really prefer this total nonsense to some basic common sense while playing?Of course no one plays totally by RAW, but that is no reason not to discuss about what the RAW says.

Saying "no one plays like that" is silly and totally missing the point.

[Sir_Wulf]

A spell with a duration of 1 round expires just before the caster's next action. I don't actually have the source for that, but I specifically remember seeing it somewhere. So the target becomes un-dazed just before the wizard's move and can AoO.
Since I don't remember my source (and have less confidence in my interpretation), let's agree with your interpretation that the spell expires at the start of the mage's next turn. The caster would need to retreat with his move action in the same turn.

My real beef was with the idea that since an Attack of Opportunity is not defined as an action, a dazed warrior could still use one. That seems an odd rule interpretation. There are other activities that aren't defined as actions, but which I wouldn't allow for a stunned foe. Examples include taking a 5-foot step ("I'd rather be over here..."), starting a "delay" ("That way I can act right after after that pesky wizard!"), or "countertripping" someone whose trip attack failed.

[Taelas]

I have to agree that a Dazed character cannot threaten the square in question, thus cannot make AoOs.

[Lapak]

I have to agree that a Dazed character cannot threaten the square in question, thus cannot make AoOs.I agree with this. So if the wizard cast Daze defensively and then moved out on the same turn, he wouldn't suffer an AOO. But spell durations that end on your turn end at the start of your turn, so if he waits until the following round to move away then he's going to suffer the AOO.

[Fuhrmaaj]

My interpretation of Daze however is that it wears off before the wizard's next turn. The target has not used its one AoO that turn (because he was dazed), so he can use it when the wizard leaves the square (because he's not dazed anymore).

So:
Wizard Turn 1: Cast daze (and provoke AoO if enemy in melee range).
Target Turn 1: Dazed (takes no actions).
Wizard Turn 2: Target is no longer dazed. Wizard leaves square and provokes AoO.

I am also in the camp that believes that between Wizard Turn 1 and Wizard Turn 2, the Target is unable to make AoOs. The AoO has not been spent however, so he is free to nail the Wizard on his turn.

[Grendus]

That's the thing I'm suspicious about. The wizard would have granted his enemy an AoO when casting daze in the first place. Presuming it didn't hit or interrupt the spell it would then stop the enemy from taking any actions. If it wore off just as the wizards next turn began, it would mean the wizard would be vulnerable to a second AoO when they tried moving away. To me that would mean the spell didn't work for a full round since it was only working from the end of the wizards last turn to the start of the new one.

Fair enough. I think the rules were expecting the wizard to do the logical thing and take a five foot step back, cast daze, then move on his next turn. Or just cast defensively and then move. Or full round withdraw. Or Abrupt Jaunt. Or use a swift action teleport item (one of a dozen). Or use a spell with a duration greater than one round (they have them from level 1).

[Taelas]

Regardless, the target was dazed for a full round -- his own.

[KillianHawkeye]

Fair enough. I think the rules were expecting the wizard to do the logical thing and take a five foot step back, cast daze, then move on his next turn. Or just cast defensively and then move. Or full round withdraw. Or Abrupt Jaunt. Or use a swift action teleport item (one of a dozen). Or use a spell with a duration greater than one round (they have them from level 1).

To be fair, the rules could not possibly have expected those two things, since they didn't exist when the rules were made.

[Geigan]

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.
Technically it says nothing about not being able to take AoOs but it doesn't really make sense to me. I agree with the interpretation that says you can't AoO while dazed.


For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
There's the source that says it ends before the wizard's turn.

[holywhippet]

Regardless, the target was dazed for a full round -- his own.

That isn't quite right - it's not a single persons round, it's everybodys. Everyone involved in the battle gets to act and they have 6 seconds to do so. Some people as just a bit faster and act before the others. My view is that the wizard casts daze (either as an exclusive action or after moving) which either uses up all 6 seconds worth of action time, or uses up half of it (if they didn't move) so for remaining 3 seconds they do nothing.

Now, at the start of the next combat round either no time has passed, or those 3 remaining second have passed. Since the spell lasts for a full round (6 seconds) it is still in effect. The wizard should have time for a single action before it wears off.

[Geigan]

That isn't quite right - it's not a single persons round, it's everybodys. Everyone involved in the battle gets to act and they have 6 seconds to do so. Some people as just a bit faster and act before the others. My view is that the wizard casts daze (either as an exclusive action or after moving) which either uses up all 6 seconds worth of action time, or uses up half of it (if they didn't move) so for remaining 3 seconds they do nothing.

Now, at the start of the next combat round either no time has passed, or those 3 remaining second have passed. Since the spell lasts for a full round (6 seconds) it is still in effect. The wizard should have time for a single action before it wears off.

Initiative count refers to the wizard's turn. Separate actions within that turn don't have their own count, as the rules simplify anything that happened to before his turn, not during. Otherwise you have to have to keep track of fractional initiative counts and that can be confusing. Perfectly valid interpretation on your part and I believe I can't word my own interpretation well enough to convince you otherwise. I would suggest posing a question to the RAW thread for them to chew on, though.

[Taelas]

That isn't quite right - it's not a single persons round, it's everybodys. Everyone involved in the battle gets to act and they have 6 seconds to do so. Some people as just a bit faster and act before the others. My view is that the wizard casts daze (either as an exclusive action or after moving) which either uses up all 6 seconds worth of action time, or uses up half of it (if they didn't move) so for remaining 3 seconds they do nothing.
The opponent has six seconds to move on his own round, during which he is dazed.

D&D does not model real-time in combat--it is a turn-based game. The opponent has had a full round--six seconds--between the end of the wizard's previous round and the beginning of his current round, despite the fact that no 'time' has actually passed (and if he was not dazed, he would be fully capable of taking actions in response to the wizard's action, meaning his turn must happen after the wizard's has ended--even though that is also the start of the wizard's next turn). This is the abstract nature of the system. You cannot simply ignore this because it is inconvenient.

[myancey]

PC wizard cast Daze on a creature successfully, but he did so in a threatened square.

Daze has a 1 round duration.

On the wizard's next turn, can he move out of that square without provoking an attack of opportunity?

The argument is whether the Daze effect ends when the wizard's turn begins or when the wizard's turn ends. If the daze effect remains, then he can move out safely, but if it doesn't remain, then an AoO would be provoked.

For now, I ruled in favor of the wizard, but I'm not sure if that's the right call.

Thoughts?

The wizard would provoke an attack of opportunity in the next round because his spell ends the moment it becomes his turn.

Any other character who would provoke an attack of opportunity between the wizard casting the spell and the spells end time does not provoke an AoO, because the affected bag guy can't do anything--including 'no actions' or immediate actions.


D&D does not model real-time in combat--it is a turn-based game. The opponent has had a full round--six seconds--between the end of the wizard's previous round and the beginning of his current round, despite the fact that no 'time' has actually passed (and if he was not dazed, he would be fully capable of taking actions in response to the wizard's action, meaning his turn must happen after the wizard's has ended--even though that is also the start of the wizard's next turn). This is the abstract nature of the system. You cannot simply ignore this because it is inconvenient.

I absolutely agree. The fact that everyone moves in the same round doesn't overrule the turn-based game mechanics. It'd be way too difficult to have everyone's turn 'exactly' at the same time.

[holywhippet]

Initiative count refers to the wizard's turn. Separate actions within that turn don't have their own count, as the rules simplify anything that happened to before his turn, not during. Otherwise you have to have to keep track of fractional initiative counts and that can be confusing. Perfectly valid interpretation on your part and I believe I can't word my own interpretation well enough to convince you otherwise. I would suggest posing a question to the RAW thread for them to chew on, though.

Yeah, honestly I'm not convinced that either interpretation is the true and correct one. This is the kind of thing I'd leave up to the DM. From my point of view, not allowing an AoO would be fairer.

[Geigan]

Yeah, honestly I'm not convinced that either interpretation is the true and correct one. This is the kind of thing I'd leave up to the DM. From my point of view, not allowing an AoO would be fairer.

Well that's why I said go to the RAW thread for a ruling if you're not convinced. I believe my interpretation to be the generally accepted one and I'm sure if you go to the RAW thread you'll get a more definitive answer. You can leave it up to your DM of course, as he has the final say in-game.

[myancey]

Yeah, honestly I'm not convinced that either interpretation is the true and correct one. This is the kind of thing I'd leave up to the DM. From my point of view, not allowing an AoO would be fairer.

Except that RAW states:


Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

This is from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#theCombatRound

So yes, a DM can house rule whatever the heck he wants...but RAW clearly states that the spell would end just as the wizards' turn was about to begin, making him vulnerable to AoO's.

[holywhippet]

Well, technically you could still interpret that it ends after the wizard has their turn using that rule. If the wizard was acting on initiative count 12 and they cast daze thus ending their turn. You could argue that because the daze comes into effect as the wizard's turn end then it starts on initiative count 13.

[myancey]

Well, technically you could still interpret that it ends after the wizard has their turn using that rule. If the wizard was acting on initiative count 12 and they cast daze thus ending their turn. You could argue that because the daze comes into effect as the wizard's turn end then it starts on initiative count 13.

Except that they end before the same initiative count...not before the wizards last action. Before the same initiative count literally means before his turn, period. The broken down actions of the wizards' previous turns have no play in RAW when it comes to this rule.

[Veyr]

I'm pretty certain myancey is absolutely, 100% objectively correct.

[myancey]

I'm pretty certain myancey is absolutely, 100% objectively correct.

Thanks! You just gave me my signature line. :thog:

[cfalcon]

"Not an action" is still an action. It's a kind of action that doesn't use up any of your actions.

Much like you can't make AoOs when dead, asleep, or not present, you can't make them when stunned or dazed. Because these prevent all actions, even those of the 'not an action' variety.


Honestly, the stuff I see on the internet...



Now as for the undazing, I don't know the official rule. However, lines like "A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action)." (stunning fist) are talking about what "1 round" means. So I would go with that. However, I'm almost positive this is covered somewhere, being a common question. So I would assume he would undaze right before the wizard's turn, and he'd get walloped. But I can't say that with authority.

[Fuhrmaaj]

Wait, I just realized something. The wizard could have taken a 5-foot step, then cast daze on the target so that there is no AoO being threatened in the second turn. If the wizard cast daze in melee range, then he would have provoked an AoO then and again when he tried to walk away.

So I say that he deserves the AoO because he didn't 5-foot step out.

[Greenish]

"Not an action" is still an action.You just broke my brain.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/561342/gil-head-explode-again.gif

[myancey]

Wait, I just realized something. The wizard could have taken a 5-foot step, then cast daze on the target so that there is no AoO being threatened in the second turn. If the wizard cast daze in melee range, then he would have provoked an AoO then and again when he tried to walk away.

So I say that he deserves the AoO because he didn't 5-foot step out.

I totally agree. In my group, we'll cut the newbies' some slack on occasion when they forget to cast defensively, and I'll occasionally allow someone to take an action they had meant to but forgot to say...

But yeah, he should have 5-footed back before he cast. Poor choice of action...but as a wizard, you'll learn quickly that being in melee and casting cantrips is not the best course of action. Or you'll get good at making characters. :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

You just broke my brain.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/561342/gil-head-explode-again.gif

I haven't seen that image in years. (Well, at least a year.)

I really need to catch up on Gil Thorp again.