binder refluff

[Darth Stabber]

So I was working on a way to fit binder into a homebrew setting, but there was no fluff fit since almost all of the vestiges make no sense given the fluff of the world. Then I hit upon something: ancestor worship. You rename each vestige to something that works for you tribes normal nomenclature, and each morning pray to a specific ancestor (or ancestors for higher level) for their aid in the day's coming trials dependant on what made them notable. Like Andromalius could be refluffed as a nth great grandfather who was known for his sneakyness and practical jokes.

Does anyone else have any ideas or thoughts about this?

[TimeWizard]

Which tribe has an ancestor that is a five legged lion head?. Most of the vestiges exist outside of time space and reality. Maybe them being ancient totemic gods of holy hell what was that thing might be more fitting.

[gallagher]

you know how tribes tend to have different gods for every tribe, and thus those gods wouldnt have that high of salient abilities? maybe you could make the ones that dont fit as ancestors like that.

imagine what vestige banjo or giggles would provide

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If the world has incarnum, just refluff it as a really weird off shot of that with each vestige being a very specific, powerful soul.

[Darth Stabber]

If the world has incarnum, just refluff it as a really weird off shot of that with each vestige being a very specific, powerful soul.

That is a very simple and sensible solution that i'd not thought of (and incarnum is certainly already in).

There are various reasons why, as written, binding doesn't fit into the campaign setting. The major one is lack of deities, which kills the fluff of over half of the vestiges. There is still an afterlife, but no deities descernible by all the works of magic, outsiders pick up a lot of additional duties, and all clerics are based on pure effort of will, and dedication to ideals (which means pick two domains and explain your resultant philosophy), and favored souls use very similar fluff to sorcerers. Paladins don't exist (replaced by gestalt soulknife//soulborn "bladeborn" for thematic purposes, but ultimately still driven by internal rather than external factors).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Excellent! I was worried that it may not help, considering how much of an odd-ball incarnum can be, but I figured it was worth a mention, at the very least. Happy to be of service, Darth Stabber! :smallbiggrin:

[GoatBoy]

That sounds a lot like my idea for working Binders into Eberron. Having contactable vestiges makes some pretty major assumptions about the divine, which is supposed to be distant and unknowable.

The Valenar elves are particularly big on ancestor worship. It'd be a little harder to fit in with the rest of the races, though. Maybe binding could be considered a highly specialized form of divine magic.

Claiming that your ancestors are five-legged lion-wheels is rather bizarre, but you can re-work the fluff to just about anything as long as most of the crunch is intact.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That sounds a lot like my idea for working Binders into Eberron. Having contactable vestiges makes some pretty major assumptions about the divine, which is supposed to be distant and unknowable.

The Valenar elves are particularly big on ancestor worship. It'd be a little harder to fit in with the rest of the races, though. Maybe binding could be considered a highly specialized form of divine magic.

Claiming that your ancestors are five-legged lion-wheels is rather bizarre, but you can re-work the fluff to just about anything as long as most of the crunch is intact.

I don't really like the ancestor worship bit, because, to me, it feels way, way, way too restrictive. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just raise my eyebrows at it. I mean, what if the binder wanted to swap out vestiges? Suddenly, he's either started worshiping a different ancestor, has a slew of them to worship to the point where all of the vestiges are there in his ancestry, or, if not, then well, crap, how do you explain him suddenly getting X's powers for a day?

At least with the Incarnum idea, if a binder wanted, he could claim a vestige to be a god, and, in doing so, keep the already present fluff that most divinely powered characters really don't like binders and view them as heretics.

EDIT: I don't mean to rag on you here Goatboy or say my idea is better in a condescending way, I was just giving my two cents on the whole ancestor worship angle and how it clashes with my opinions and (possibly) the default binder fluff.

[Eldan]

Which tribe has an ancestor that is a five legged lion head?. Most of the vestiges exist outside of time space and reality. Maybe them being ancient totemic gods of holy hell what was that thing might be more fitting.

That's what refluffing means. Actually, great-uncle Buer isn't a lion. He just shows up as a slightly annoyed old man with a crutch.

[TimeWizard]

That's what refluffing means. Actually, great-uncle Buer isn't a lion. He just shows up as a slightly annoyed old man with a crutch.

Let me elaborate. To go from thing that spits in the face of all that obeys the rules of existence to great uncle so-and-so the ornery is MASSIVE. The entire POINT of Vestiges is how unnatural they are. As one of the few things in DnD that doesn't fit the staple of "things lifted from [[Major Popular Work]]" I find a personal investment in them. But it's homebrew. If you want them to be dead family members you'd better have a good reason why they have really creepy a** powers.

Or whatever. I guess I'm just a
Slightly annoyed old man myself. [/rant] [/vent]

[Zaq]

The entire POINT of Vestiges is how unnatural they are. As one of the few things in DnD that doesn't fit the staple of "things lifted from [[Major Popular Work]]" I find a personal investment in them.

You sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetic_demons_in_popular_culture) about that? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon)

[Darth Stabber]

You sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetic_demons_in_popular_culture) about that? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon)

Yeah, that was what I thought of when I first read ToM. Having spent some time studying western occult traditions, binder fluff does a good job of conjuring up some of that type of imagery.

[manyslayer]

One other alternative to the ancestor worship or powerful souls for incarnum based would be animistic spirits. That could explain strange appearance and powers. If you want to keep some of the outcast idea for binders, have them be spirits of the various entities that act for the natural world (the outsiders and such you spoke of that pull a lot of the duties deities would in a traditional setting) that have fallen from their path/duty or been cast out by the heavenly/hellish/whatever host or mortals that attempted to achieve forbidden power and paid for their hubris with being cast outside of the natural cycle.

[Goober4473]

That sounds a lot like my idea for working Binders into Eberron. Having contactable vestiges makes some pretty major assumptions about the divine, which is supposed to be distant and unknowable.

I'm currently using them in Eberron as beings from the dream plane, stuck in a sort of "forgotten dreams" realm. Their backstories are just something someone, or many people over time, dreamed up (literally).

[Eldan]

Yeah, that was what I thought of when I first read ToM. Having spent some time studying western occult traditions, binder fluff does a good job of conjuring up some of that type of imagery.

It doesn't just conjure up the imagery. It takes the names and description from the goetic demons. The abilities granted are often divorced from it, but not entirely, and of course the backstories are new. The Sigils are directly lifted from Aleister Crowley's works.

[Veyr]

You sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetic_demons_in_popular_culture) about that? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon)
Fun-fact: an uncredited artist for Tome of Magic was Aleister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Crowley), who drew the seals (http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/ceremonial/classics/plancy/demony.html) for most of the Goetic Demons Vestiges.

[TimeWizard]

Great. Now I'm going to get a copy off that book and make a room full of crazy in my own blood or something. I'm not sad I didn't know that: I'm said that now that I DO know that I'm going to go full on crazy. Also, geez wizards. A little creativity?

[Quietus]

One other alternative to the ancestor worship or powerful souls for incarnum based would be animistic spirits. That could explain strange appearance and powers. If you want to keep some of the outcast idea for binders, have them be spirits of the various entities that act for the natural world (the outsiders and such you spoke of that pull a lot of the duties deities would in a traditional setting) that have fallen from their path/duty or been cast out by the heavenly/hellish/whatever host or mortals that attempted to achieve forbidden power and paid for their hubris with being cast outside of the natural cycle.

I really like this. It'd definitely contribute to the oddness and unknowability of the vestiges, while still keeping a reason for divine casters to hate them. Perhaps replace the void with the far realm? These outsiders that were cast from their roles were sent into the far realm, a place from which they cannot escape, and - in many cases, such as Buer's - have been fundamentally altered by their new surroundings. They accept pacts in a desperate attempt to see the real world, rather than the twisted reality of the far realm, and displaying the individual's sign/influence is representative of the far realm touching the mind of the binder in some small way...

[Ungoded]

Fun-fact: an uncredited artist for Tome of Magic was Aleister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Crowley), who drew the seals (http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/ceremonial/classics/plancy/demony.html) for most of the Goetic Demons Vestiges.

Even-More-fun-Fact: S.L. Mathers merely redrew the seals from the original 17th century manuscripts that he and Crowley used as a basis for the 1904 revised English edition of The Goetia, which is the first book of The Lesser Key of Solomon.

[JonRG]

Which tribe has an ancestor that is a five legged lion head?. Most of the vestiges exist outside of time space and reality. Maybe them being ancient totemic gods of holy hell what was that thing might be more fitting.

Agh... my monitor.

Good times. :smallbiggrin: