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chrisrawr
2011-05-19, 01:12 AM
Okay so enough with trying to fit mechanics to Archer. I am going to bring Archer to mechanics!

I'm aware that a bunch of the abilities are a bit heavy-handed in their wording. I forced this out like a long poop :c

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Archers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Dexterity provide damage, but only if you have enough strength to wield a powerful bow. WISDOM and INTELLIGENCE are both important.

Alignment: Archers are best suited towards the Neutral and Lawful alignments, favoring patience, and acting on a big-picture agenda. There are, of course, as many exceptions as there are those who follow the stereotype.

Hit Die: D4
Starting Age: As Paladin
Starting Gold: As Ranger

Table: Archer
{table=head]Level|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2| Shooter Man

2nd|
+0|
+3|
+3|So Ranged

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3| Threatening Archery

4th|
+1|
+4|
+4| Flecher

5th|
+1|
+4|
+4| Craft Magic Projectiles

6th|
+2|
+5|
+5| Deadly Aim

7th|
+2|
+5|
+5| Frustrating Shot

8th|
+2|
+6|
+6| Improved Sniping

9th|
+3|
+6|
+6| Woodcraft

10th|
+3|
+7|
+7| Exhibitionist

11th|
+3|
+7|
+7| Extreme Range

12th|
+4|
+8|
+8| Ranged Combat Maneuver

13th|
+4|
+8|
+8| Hide in Plain Sight

14th|
+4|
+9|
+9| Renowned Exhibitionist

15th|
+5|
+9|
+9| Shredding Shot

16th|
+5|
+10|
+10| Keen Eyes

17th|
+5|
+10|
+10 | Blot out the Sun

18th|
+6|
+11|
+11| Legendary Exhibitionist

19th|
+6|
+11|
+11| Shoot the Moon

20th|
+6|
+12|
+12| Peerless Archer
[/table]

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.

Class Skills: The Archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex),
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate, Listen (Wis),
Knowledge: Arcana, Nature, Religion (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int),
Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

Unless stated otherwise, all abilities are (Ex) effects, and all attack modifiers only affect
ranged attacks.

Proficiencies: The Archer gains proficiency with Simple weapons and Ranged Martial
Weapons, Light armour, and Bucklers. The Archer gains proficiency with all Ranged Weapons,
Exotic or not.

Level 1: Shooter Man (Su)
Archers do not roll to-hit. Each round, as a full-attack action, they may make 1 attack that
counts as having defeated the target's AC. Archer levels cannot select feats requiring BAB,
and cannot gain additional attacks from sources other than Archer class features. At level 6,
11, 16 and 20, the Archer's Full attack gains an additional attack that does not roll to-hit, and
counts as having defeated its target's AC. These attacks must be made with a Bow or
Crossbow, and do not affect other Ranged attacks such as Spells, throwing weapons, or
Special Abilities. These attacks otherwise follow the normal rules for concealment, damage,
range, etc.

Additionally, Archers add their Dexterity Modifier to damage with bows and crossbows when
making ranged attacks. The Archer suffers no penalties to shooting an adjacent target, and
does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for doing so. Conversely, for each number of Range
Increments equal to their weapon's Critical Modifier (x2, x3, etc.), the Archer suffers a -1
penalty to damage rolls made with Bows and Crossbows. Archers never threaten Critical Hits
with bows or crossbows, or with any attack using this class feature.

If this ability would be negated (via Antimagic or similar ability), instead it functions as normal
up to 5 Range Increments. Beyond this range, the Archer makes attacks as normal, with
Archer Levels contributing poor BAB to the Attack Bonus.

If the Archer would attack an enemy more than 1000 feet away, the attack takes 1 round of
travel time to reach its destination, and suffers a miss chance of 5% for each 100 feet beyond
1000. As well, Enemies moving more than 200 feet per round at these ranges gain an
additional 30% miss chance.

Variant: Dual-CrossBow / Manyshot Archer
When wielding 2 1-handed or light (or a 1-handed and a light) crossbows, the Archer may
attack with both once each round as a full-attack action, reloading as a free action in between
shots while both hands are otherwise unengaged - the Archer must reload normally if their
hands would become occupied with something else. Alternatively, the Archer may choose to
knock and fire 2 arrows at once when wielding a bow. At levels 6, 11, 16, and 20, the Archer
may make an additional attack with both in their full-attack action. These attacks each gain
only half the Archer's Dexterity Modifier to their damage, and have only 5 range increments of
15 feet (75 feet total range).

Level 2: So Ranged
At 2nd level, the Archer's range increment with any Ranged Weapon doubles, before any
other modifiers. If this is combined with a similar effect, the cumulative effect is x3, as usual
when stacking multipliers. This does not apply to thrown weapons because the Archer does
not use throwing weapons, it uses bows and crossbows.

Level 3: Threatening Archery
At 3th level, the Archer threatens Attacks of Opportunity out to a range 15 feet with a wielded
Bow or Crossbow. At 5th level, and every 2 levels after, this range increases by 10 feet (25 at
5, 35 at 7, 45 at 9, etc.).

Level 4: Fletcher
Archers are incredibly quick at creating arrows, and often do so in their spare time. In addition
to the allotted 8 hours per day for crafting, an Archer may craft arrows or bolts exclusively for
4 extra hours. Archers gain a +1 competence bonus to Craft when they craft arrows, bolts,
bows, or crossbows of any type.

Level 5: Craft Magical Projectiles
The Archer gains the Craft: Magic Arms and Armour feat, but may only use it to enhance Bows,
Crossbows, and Ammunition for each. When crafting ammunition, an Archer may ignore the xp
cost by doubling the crafting time and spending additional 1gp per xp ignored. The Archer
must embark on a side quest in order to research the desired enhancements, be it studying a
mage's spells or observing magic in nature.

Level 6: Deadly Aim
On your action, before you attack with a full-attack, you may choose to subtract a number of
attacks from your full-attack action, to a minimum of 1. For each attack subtracted this way,
add the damage of that attack to the damage of your remaining attacks, spread out as evenly
as possible (rounding down).

Example: Mary, a 10th level Archer, has 3 attacks with her Composite Longbow, 1D8+5
damage from Dexterity and enhancements.She sacrifices 1 attack, and rolls the damage for it -
an 11. She divides this damage amongst the other two, granting +5 to each. The remaining
damage is split, and lost.

When using the Dual-Crossbow or Manyshot variant, the minimum attacks that can be made is
2 (1 from each weapon if Dual-Crossbow, 1 from each many-shot arrow), and each weapon's
or arrow's attacks gain bonus damage only from attacks it has sacrificed.

Level 7: Frustrating Shot
If the Archer successfully attacks a target, that target count as being flanked by the Archer
until the beginning of the Archer's next turn.

Level 8: Improved Sniping
When attacking a target unaware of its location from at least 5 range increments away, for
each range increment beyond the 5th the Archer adds a cumulative +5 Sniping bonus to its
hide check to remain concealed. The Archer may make a hide check to remain concealed after
making a full attack, if it sacrifices all of its available attacks to Deadly Aim, and the target is
unaware of the Archer's location.

When using the Dual-Crossbow or Manyshot variant, this becomes Fusillade . Once per
encounter, the Archer may make an additional Full Attack on a turn in which it has already
made a Full Attack. The Archer must attack the same targets with the Fusillade as it did with its
first Full Attack, even if this would mean attacking a downed or dead target.

Level 9: Woodcraft
The Archer gains a +1 competency bonus to survival checks made to find crafting materials for
bows, crossbows, or ammunition for either.

Level 10: Exhibitionist:
The Archer may perform a feat of stunning archery as part of a Full-round Action Intimidate or
Perform(Archery) check. If this attack hits and deals damage, substitute the result Damage Roll
for the result of the Intimidation or Perform(Archery) check.

If this attack is against an opponent during or before the First Round of Combat, opponents
who fail WILL against 10+1/2 Archer Level+CHA suffer a -2 Morale Penalty to Attack and
Damage rolls, Saves vs. Fear effects, and CHA-based Skill Checks for 2 rounds. Only opponents
that witnessed the Archer perform this stunt are affected. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

When using the Dual-Crossbow or Manyshot variant, the Archer must destroy an object with
at least 50 HP, or deal at least 50 damage to an opponent.

Level 11: Extreme Range
At 11th level, and every 4 levels afterward (15, 19), the Archer's ranged attacks extend an
additional 5 range increments (15 at 11, 20 at 15, and 25 at 19). The penalty to Damage rolls
with Bows and Crossbows is halved.

When using the Dual-Crossbow or Manyshot variant, the Archer instead adds 1 extra attack to
their full attack at each interval.

Level 12: Ranged Combat Maneuvers
You gain Ranged Pin, Ranged Trip, and Ranged Disarm. If you already have these abilities, or
gain them later, you gain a +4 bonus to the opposed roll. You also now count as having Full
BAB for the purpose of these rolls.

Level 13: Hide in Plain Sight
As the Ranger Ability of the same name.

Level 14: Renowned Exhibitionist
The penalties against opponents from Exhibitionist increase to -4. Opponents who gain these
penalties are Shaken. If Exhibitionist was used as a Perform(Archery) ability, increase the
result of the check by +2.

Level 15: Shredding Shot
The Archer's attacks are fired in such a way as to shred through resistances. Each attack after
the first against a target in the same round ignores a cumulative 2 points of hardness, DR, or
other damage-reducing resistance. When attacking through effects such as Walls of Wind or
Force Walls, each attack goes 20 feet further than the last, but suffers half damage should it
hit (this damage reduction also being reduced by the Shredding Shot effect). This ability
ignores an additional point of reduction, and allows attacks to travel an additional 10 feet
beyond effects such as Wall of Wind or Force Wall for each level beyond 15th (3 points of
reduction and 30 feet per attack at 16th, 4 and 40 at 17th, etc.).

Level 16: Keen Eyes
The Archer gains a +20 insight bonus to Spot and Search checks, and suffers no distance
penalty to Spot checks.

Level 17: Blot out the Sun
As a Full-Round action that leaves the Archer exhausted, the Archer may choose - and make a
single attack against - up to 20 targets within its maximum range. For each enemy beyond the
5th, the Archer takes 3 points of HP damage at the end of its turn. If the Archer is immune to
Exhaustion, it instead takes 5 points of HP damage for every enemy beyond the 5th, and
cannot Blot out the Sun for 1D3 hours. The Archer may not Blot out the Sun while suffering a
negative status such as Fatigued, Sickened, Frightened, etc.

Level 18: Legendary Exhibitionist
The penalties against opponents from Exhibitionist increase to -6. As well, allies that witness
the stunt gain a +2 Morale bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, and Saves vs Fear effects for
duration. Everyone gains a +5 Reputation bonus to Spot Checks made to witness the Archer's
stunt.

level 19: Shoot the Moon
The Archer's ranged attacks with bows and crossbows fly swifter than any wind, farther than
any ship. The Archer's attacks with these weapons hit any creature within 3000 feet on the
same turn they're fired, and suffer no miss chance for distance or creature speed. Additionally,
they are unhindered by winds (magical or nonmagical).

Level 20: Peerless Archer
The Archer's exploits and abilities are legendary. The Archer's ranged attacks with bows and
crossbows do not suffer miss chances against any target. The Archer may make a single attack
with a bow or crossbow against any target within twice its maximum range as a full-round
action. The Archer takes no penalties when sniping,

chrisrawr
2011-05-20, 10:09 PM
BLERGH.

Credits

Credits go to people who made this class better than anything I could have produced on my own - be it through pointing out serious flaws in mechanics, or offering far better wordings for abilities. My thanks to them :D

MageofMystra - Thanks to whom a massive overhaul and inclusion of called shots was made possible, and from whom many encouraging words did flow. Also, thanks for allowing it to be run in your game :D I can't wait to slay me some corrupt dragon scum!

Lyndworm - Thanks to whom the Sniper's Path was greatly improved, both mechanically and conceptually, and from whom many encouraging words did flow.

Elfstone - Thanks to whom the Sniper has Hide in Plain Sight, a much needed addition, and from whom many encouraging words did flow.

Gardner - Thanks to whom many balancing adjustments were made, Forceful Shot was made viable, and from whom many encouraging words did flow.

Dryad - Thanks to whom the Exhibitionist ability was clarified and reworked, as it was broken until she came along, and from whom many encouraging words did flow.



Comments

BLERGH


Changelog

1. Posted: May 18, 11:11PM PST, 2011

2. Updates: May 18-19, 11:37PM-2AM PST, 2011 Added the Class Picture, added Alignment, Background, Capabilities, etc., updated format somewhat. Added scaling penalty vs. AC on Chink in the Armor. Added capstone (Intentionally weak, will improve as I round out the class), created limited ranged AoO generation class feature. Thinking of replacing Fighter Bonus Feats with Bonus Feat List, to reduce requirements and make the class flow better. Comments added.

3. Moar updates: May 19, 6AM PST, 2011 swapped out AoO's and bonus feats for Archer Paths, similar to Ranger styles.

4. Updates: May 20, 10:36AM PST, 2011 - Some slight changes to Sniper path, large changes to Chink in the Armor and Precision Shooting. More content and changes to come as I address obvious issues and fill in dead levels. Filled in a couple more paths, edited and cleaned up Precision Shooter, added Precision Shooter abilities, cleaned up and fixed Chink in the Armor, adjusted Spot Check to flat DC = AC, adjusted action requirements for spot check.

5. Added: May 21, 10:35AM PST, 2011 - Added special arrows, reworded some abilities for clarity.

6. Not Raptured: May 22, 6ishPM PST, 2011 - Reworded (again) Paths, Chink in the Armor, to remove potential abuse.

7. Still not raptured: May 24, 12:30 in the morning, PST, 2011 - Clarified the Sniping Path gained at level 2 - It's a mini crit. Deal with it. Intend to add weights to the special arrows - assume they are arrow-weighted for now. Archer levels stack with and count as fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that affect ranged weapons.

8. May 29, 5:55PM, PST, 2011 - Changed full-turn actions back to full-round actions. Mah mistake on that. Added "Archer's" to chink in the armor, for clarification on which/whose turn it lasts until.

9. June 2, 6:50AM, PST, 2011 - Added the final two paths to the archer, dinked around with the Peerless Archer, changed Precision Damage progression to 4+3, changed Arrow theory to 3+5, messing with Precision Damage names and bonuses.

10. June 3, 10:40AM, PST, 2011 - Significant Changes! Sniping path overhauled.

11. June 6, 2:40PM, PST, 2011 - Overhaul complete. Changes to everything. Change log will reflect on these new changes, previous changes invalidated.

12. June 6, 5:18PM, PST, 2011 - Placed Archer Path after Arrow Theory, instead of before it. Altered Final Sniping Path's wording and removed skill masteries, as Peerless Archer contains them already.

13. June 8, 10:15AM, PST, 2011 - Precision Damage changed to Precision Archery, Archery Tokens now fuel precision effects, precision effects added or expanded.

14. ", 12:05PM, PST, 2011 - Archery Tokens added as a side progression, increased, more effects added.

15. ". 7:25PM, PST, 2011 - Hand and Lung Called Shot costs swapped. Damage requirement added to Lung. Ranged Bull Rush no longer works with Dungeon Crasher and similar feats/abilities.

16. June 9, 1:42PM, PST, 2011 - Ranged Bull Rush changed to Forceful Shot, much more elegant. Exhibitionist altered to actually work.

17. June 12, 9:31PM, PST, 2011 - Save DC's for called shots altered from Damage Dealt to 10+1/2Damage Dealt, clause added to ignore non-critable damage in this calculation (such as flaming, precision damage, etc.)

18. June 13, 5:18PM, PST, 2011 - Heavier Arrows have been given 5 less range increments - halving their maximum range in most cases.

19. June 14, 11:00PM, PST, 2011 - Skirmisher's level 5 Evasion given a movement requirement, Volley Archer's level 5 has had its Archery Tokens removed, Archery Pool lowered overall, Pool refreshing requires a move action and restricts the archer, Volley Archer's Ranged AoO's given supplemental Archery Tokens. Added a range for Precision Effects, equal to 10xArcher's Level. Wordings on various Precision Effects has been clarified, as well as the mechanic itself. Precision Damage now only applies to targets of successful chink in the armor spot checks. Called shots specified that only 1 effect can be applied to any single attack. Archery Token costs fumbled around a bit to make the resource last, while still making refreshing the pool important. More work soon! Minor wording edits.

20. June 15, 11:20PM, PST, 2011 - Made CitA Standard Action's Attack non-mandatory. Secondary Edit: Precision Effects altered - Only one effect per arrow, to prevent nova arrows. Exceptions added in certain cases, Improved Vital Aim updated to reflect this.

21. June 16, 2:45AM, PST, 2011 - Removed extra attack for volley 10. Tinkering with Volley 20. Removing free Archery token per attack on Volley 10. Adding an attacks system to Volley 20 in place of extra attack and bleed - I want him to feel like a gatling gun, at the expense of maybe health, saves, and eventually ability scores? WE'LL SEE!

22. June 17, 4:07PM, PST, 2011 - Wording changes to skirmish path, removed vestigial bonus attack at 10, looking at more edits that need to be done to it, thinking of spreading the paths out over 5 abilities again.

23. July 2, 11:50AM, PST, 2011 - Implementing changes - Level layout is being altered, paths back over 5 increments.

24. July 11, 6:02AM, PST, 2011 - Consolidating abilities for compactness, ease of reading. Slightly nerfing Chink in the Armor, beginning work on feats, Mounted path scrapped in favor of Martial path. Martial path started.

25. March 27, 12:07 AM, PST, 2013 - Lolol 2 years later and it's still garbage. New take. Everything redone.

Lyndworm
2011-05-25, 02:41 PM
I've only skimmed this, but I really, really. like it. Good job, man.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-25, 04:52 PM
This has excellent potential. Unfortunately, it doesn't grant enough bonuses to fix the low-damage problem. Dex replacing Strength and 3d8 precision (which several creatures are immune to) are not suitable replacements for Power Attack. The best way I know of to bypass the problem is to maximize your attack numbers and use a force weapon, which ignores DR for a +2 equivalent bonus.

The Vital Aim ability to trade AC for attack and damage is the right idea, but there still needs to be something more that doesn't mess up skirmish-type archers.

chrisrawr
2011-05-25, 09:21 PM
This has excellent potential. Unfortunately, it doesn't grant enough bonuses to fix the low-damage problem. Dex replacing Strength and 3d8 precision (which several creatures are immune to) are not suitable replacements for Power Attack. The best way I know of to bypass the problem is to maximize your attack numbers and use a force weapon, which ignores DR for a +2 equivalent bonus.

The Vital Aim ability to trade AC for attack and damage is the right idea, but there still needs to be something more that doesn't mess up skirmish-type archers.

I'm keeping the class intentionally low for now, to get some playtest results, but I agree - it doesn't make up for these things. I'm toying with precision damage slots - I might make it every 3 levels - 4,7,10,13,16,19, and I might be adding power shot (wording from the Energy Bow) at the cost of 3, as well as ignoring wind-wall at 2, and trying for at least 2 effects at every higher one, or perhaps combined effects if I run out of ideas.

I'll also be adding, at later levels (17 and 18 are dead at the moment) an ability to allow critical hits against those immune to it, or perhaps tack it onto the sniper path at 16. Improved Vital Aim will be increased, as well - it will be increasing crit modifier as well(stacks with sniper path). The capstone will also be adding a final path ability to each path, in the interest of being really, really good at what you do (Volley will get an effect similar to time stands still, sniper will be getting massive range increases for spot and increment, and who knows what, skirmish will... I don't even know man, I don't even have 16th level done yet.)

So really, any ideas are welcome for improvements and modifications. What I don't want to do is just add damage to the class as a balancing factor, though.

Also, the Energy Bow is pants on head retarded - it's a +2 force bow that deals 2d6 damage, lights up, and lets you power attack... for 22,600 gold. If you stick it at ~50,000 gp (where it should be), it's nice. Otherwise, it's silly and you have no reason not to take it.

Edit: LYNDWORM HOW DID I MISS YOUR COMMENT? MANY LOVES :>

chrisrawr
2011-06-01, 09:32 PM
The Archer is now being playtested in a few games. Updates from playtesting will go in this post.

Moribundus
2011-06-02, 01:40 AM
I wish I was one of those people who was good at making classes and offering advice about them, alas, I am not. . . which is why I usually just lurk and read the forums a couple of times a week. That being said, I think this has got to be one of the coolest ranged base classes I have ever seen. Even with the dead levels problem. . it is downright elegant. kudos and I can't wait to see what you do with it!

Knaight
2011-06-02, 02:22 AM
The Sniper option appears much weaker than the other two, and the class is remarkably low on damage for the time being.

chrisrawr
2011-06-02, 07:24 AM
The Sniper option appears much weaker than the other two, and the class is remarkably low on damage for the time being.

The sniper begins triggering massive damage rules at 11 from hundreds of feet - but I agree, it's less useful in an actual battle, because if you want skirmish or volley power, you need to give up feats that would help sniping.

I'm also tinkering with the removal of the sniping penalty - I honestly don't agree with there being one at all, so I'll probably have it -10 at level 2, and gone at 11, replacing the level 6 buff with level 11's and giving masteries for them at 11. Would replacing "Wis" to skills with a flat +5 untyped be better? I like tying abilities to scores, for flavor, but sometimes mechanics recommend a flat buff.

I'm in 3 games right now with a variety of other classes and builds. The Archer is very intentionally under-powered at the moment, as I'm still tinkering with the level advancement. As of now, he has 6 scaling features - I might do with simply rearranging them to fill the dead levels, but I would rather like to add things. I also like tying abilities to skills, but I don't want to enforce skill requirements to play a class; I've got spot set on chink in the armor because you're going to have spot anyways, and craft because you can hit the DC's with fairly little effort.

tl;dr - still intentionally underpowered; a highly optimized fighter or ranged warblade can still easily put out more damage at range, but there would be less tripping :> Also, any ideas on the last 4 levels would be appreciated, as I'd like to make people squirm when trying to decide between them, and four levels of cragtop archer (which has a lot to add for almost any arhcer - if only its requirements were reasonable :I )


I wish I was one of those people who was good at making classes and offering advice about them, alas, I am not. . . which is why I usually just lurk and read the forums a couple of times a week. That being said, I think this has got to be one of the coolest ranged base classes I have ever seen. Even with the dead levels problem. . it is downright elegant. kudos and I can't wait to see what you do with it!

elegant... tehe:smallredface:

Lyndworm
2011-06-02, 07:34 AM
As pointed out by Knaight, Sniping seems a little weak. I love the idea of a sniper character, and I feel that they're almost impossible to do well. I understand that the class is intentionally built low and unfinished right now, but you may want to check out the Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150215&highlight=sniper) for inspiration. It's not perfect (I have a few modifications I make to actually use it), but it's very nice.

I agree that the damage seems low as well; that's ranged combat's biggest problem, really. I think that if the Precision Shooting ability came every three levels (3, 6 ,9, 12, 15, 18) it might help the issue a little bit.

Multiplying the damage on a crit's a little strange; maybe just add it on a crit like Telling Blow? My only issue is that it's strange language not found anywhere else (to the best of my knowledge) that actually goes against the standard definition of Precision Damage, whereas a built-in Telling Blow-like ability does have some precedent.

I look forward to reading your playtesting information.

chrisrawr
2011-06-02, 08:47 AM
Comments bolded :3


As pointed out by Knaight, Sniping seems a little weak. I love the idea of a sniper character, and I feel that they're almost impossible to do well. I understand that the class is intentionally built low and unfinished right now, but you may want to check out the Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150215&highlight=sniper) for inspiration. It's not perfect (I have a few modifications I make to actually use it), but it's very nice.

Agreed, I like it very much, and will probably find inspiration from it.

I agree that the damage seems low as well; that's ranged combat's biggest problem, really. I think that if the Precision Shooting ability came every three levels (3, 6 ,9, 12, 15, 18) it might help the issue a little bit.

Close to what I was thinking; I'm going with 4/7/10/13/16/19 for now, and also moving the Arrow Theory to 3/8/13/18 - I want to have enough arrows to tailor to a broad range of campaigns, without making the choice of arrow a big deal, but still keeping your choices limited so they feel speshul. You should be able to say "ooh, there's lots of crackly undead, let's take incendiary arrows.", or "ooh, we're going to be sneaking into a castle, let's take an arrow that can anchor our climbing rope." I've also added the last two paths... they feel kind of uninspired at the moment :c

Multiplying the damage on a crit's a little strange; maybe just add it on a crit like Telling Blow? My only issue is that it's strange language not found anywhere else (to the best of my knowledge) that actually goes against the standard definition of Precision Damage, whereas a built-in Telling Blow-like ability does have some precedent.

I'll look into it; Precision Damage is just the crappy placeholder name I gave it for now; "Damage that applies to Chink in the Armor victims" just doesn't have the same ring to it. Having it apply on criticals against non-chink'd targets seems about right.

I look forward to reading your playtesting information.

Hrawr; I had one DM turn it down because it was overpowered. The rest of the party looks like full casters. Though, Swiftblade was also turned down. Apparently having the ability to simulate spells and shoot arrows is more powerful than being able to cast genesis all day without restriction :I

MageofMystra
2011-06-03, 04:52 PM
Since I also have an interest in this class and that I should really get to know this if you're going to use this in my game, here are my two cents, feature by feature.

I'm not the strongest mechanical person, nor the best eye for balance, so take all of this with a grain of salt. My opinion might be worth far less than I hope.

Chink in the Armour:
maybe I'm being silly, but it might make a bit more sense to let the effect last until right before the beginning of the Archer's next turn, for corner cases like wanting to make a readied attack with Chink in the Armour (since you can't do this as is--maybe consider letting people do that at a slightly later level.)
The scaling's also a bit wonky, in my opinion. At level 1, trying to find a chink in the armour's ridiculously difficult against anyone in actual armour. It would probably get a bit better later in the game, but don't quote me on that.
Also, at level 7, way to encourage belts of battle (or Marshals.) :P

Archer Paths:
Skirmish:
Maybe I don't play often enough, but how often do you absolutely need to attack in the middle of a move action that would justify this being a proper class feature, especially given that it has to sit next to x2 damage, and Rapid Shot redux at level 2?
Sniping:
Why not just say "use normal multiplier stacking rules"? You're overcomplicating the wording, especially since it operates almost exactly as a critical hit's multiplier, if I'm not misreading this:
By the normal rules, a x2 and a x2 make a x3. By your wording, if you get a x2 critical on that special hit you do x1 which is doubled, then another x1--for x3. Even if a bow normally does x3, both methods still add up to x4.

Arrow Theory:
I like the idea here. If you want to give him more options, why not homebrew more of these, divide them into tiers, then give them several choices amongst the tier they're on?
Shattering Arrow:
Just nitpicking here: additional implies that you're doing damage to that 5 foot burst to begin with.
Flash-bang Arrow:
More nitpicking: I'm not sure why you added the "as the spell, except as noted" clause there. You've more or less covered your bases already, and you're only adding extra silliness--in that I think you've allowed the effect to be dismissable (debatable, of course),and made it treated as a spell, so globes of invulnerability ignore it (somewhat debatable, but why not just avoid this entirely?)
Incendiary Arrow:
Just nitpicking here, but you might want to define igniting the target (refer to Alchemist's Fire, etc.) Most people'd probably understand, though.
Draining Arrow:
How does bleed damage work? Is this in a book I haven't read? (if it is, you might want to put a refer to Source, pg. or something: note.) If it isn't, how does it work? Does the draining arrow just do one extra point of bleeding damage, period? (beacuse that sort of stinks.)

Precision Shooting:
How does this interact with a critical on Chink in the Armour? Would I assume it activates twice? By the wording, it's a bit confusing.
Just my opinion here, but you should only really penalize the precision damage drop for the one attack you're making a maneuver on. I think you're encouraging them to go all one way or the other. You're also encouraging trying these maneuvers on the last hit of their full round attacks--assuming they can hit (which probably will be the case.)
Ranged Bull Rush: You might want to add some clauses to defer to the normal Bull Rush rules in terms of bonuses (especially the more than 2 legs thing), because you're almost certainly not including all corner cases and bouts of silliness. Other than that, I like this class feature.

Vital Aim:
I understand the penalties cannot become bonuses clause is to prevent someone from completely dumping STR, but it also makes Rays of Enfeeblement stupidly good to use against Archers. "Oh, look, he has 10 STR, let's nullify his DEX or WIS for attacks." Also, in my opinion, this should come earlier.
Improved Vital Aim @ level 10:
...why would you base it off of the lower bonus? You're encouraging a bit of MAD here. Understandably, basing it off of the higher may not be too prudent either, and I don't think people would appreciate trying to calculate the mean of the two stats in combat, so you might not have too many alternatives, however, in my opinion, it's really not asking much to get some sort of bonus to damage. Also, that's really mean to the skirmisher.
I'd also recommend you split the two parts of the ability to seperate entries. It's a bit weird reading.

Improved Archer Paths:
Skirmish:
The wording confuses me somewhat. I'm not sure what the (this stacks) part means (the only thing I can think of is that it stacks with Manyshot and anything else that enhances Manyshot, to which end I say "wasn't that implied?") You might want to reword the last sentence a bit. May I suggest something like "In addition, the attack penalty from using Manyshot is lowered from -4 to -3, and the cumulative penalty for adding additional arrows is reduced from -2 to -1" or something to that effect? Also, does the feature's extra arrow also add a -2 penalty due to Manyshot?
Sniping:
You're giving a lot of features there. Let me try this one at a time. Study Counters seem to be a bit of extra paperwork, but manageable. I won't complain there. I've already complained before about the critical threat range increase. Also, awesome, a WIS archer gets to double his stat bonuses to his attacks.
Volley:
Wait, another free attack? Also, the volley ability confuses me somewhat. If he misses target A, he gets to re-roll the attack against A's buddy, B, but the target isn't changed at all? Are we hitting A or B, because I'm a little confused. Also, if you wanted to be really be a jerk in a strict reading, an opponent within 15 feet of the original target includes the original target, I think.

Chink in the Armour @ Move Action:
At this point, I say "Get that belt of battle over here." Volley archers seem to be getting at least 5 touch attacks with added +2d8 precision damage on each. Granted, they might not all hit, but still, that's appreciable at level 7.

Greater Paths:
Skirmish:
I might be being stupid here, but you can use standard actions to move normally, and people would actually abuse this to justify writing that exception? Another attack? Double Manyshot attack routines? I think your Skirmish archer is about two attacks (from class features) behind the Volley archer, and +2 AB ahead.
Sniping:
Alright, awesome, I can now spot things several miles away with absolutely no penalty. I'd love to be a level 11 archer in the Sniping path just for that.
Volley:
More extra attacks. This has the potential to get really silly. since they can shoot 10 attacks in a full round action, each of them doing extra damage. With a belt of battle, proper weapons, buffs, and a nice powerful Vital Aim... you have appreciable damage output, at least.

Archer Paragon Path:
Skirmish:
This seems a bit weak.
Sniping:
This seems a bit strong, but probably isn't much to talk about at level 16.
Volley:
Goodie, Time Stands Still every other round! I think you might get some annoyed glares if you actually roll all of them. Also: warforged.

Peerless Archer
I'd recommend changing this and other mentions of flat-footed to "denied dexterity to AC", mainly since I think there are some oddities in flat-footed vs. DEX to AC in the books. Don't quote me on that, though.
With adequate eyesight, a volley archer properly built is now launching lots and lots of arrows at enemies thousands of feet away. No complaints here. Why couldn't this come earlier? :D

Skirmisher:
OK, a free +20 to massive damage save DCs.
Sniper:
You're just now giving HIPS?
Volley-Man:
This is a really badass class feature name. It's like having a superhero for a class feature. A free double move per round is nice. Does the bleed damage carry through between rounds, becaue I can't see anything that'd say otherwise.
...I won't comment on balance here, since this is a level 20 capstone, but I will comment on what bonuses we've gotten:

Skirmishing:
Two standard actions for multishots on the run, 6 shot multishots with absolutely no penalty, both of them can be combined to super shots with DC whatever + 20. Also, a tasty miss chance that seems to be completely unavoidable, that can be easily raised to high amounts if the archer took methods of being faster.
Sniper:
HIPS at level 20 up to +100 critical threat range, damage, and to hit. And the ability to do a +60 critical threat range, damage, and to hit attack as an immediate action. I've made the lightning mace comment before (though, admittedly, this is absurdly shaky; I think even a modron would smack you, though it might work with hand crossbows.) Notably, no ability to avoid miss chances.
Volley-Man (awesome):
Withdraw as a free action, 24 (?) attacks per round with zero buffs, and a whole lot of bleed damage per round. If I did my math right, if all of them hit, that's 300 bleed damage. Also, wounding arrows. That is all.

...I realize this isn't world-shattering at level 20, but it feels somewhat wrong.
It is, however, very awesome.


Closing comments on features:
Skirmish and Volley-Man both feel somewhat similar. Granted, a lot of the features and what they can do are different, but their modus operandi feel, at least, somewhat similar. Also, why did the Volley-Man get more mobile than the skirmisher at level 20, and get to keep the extra attacks? :/



All in all, this class really feels like a one trick pony. You shoot arrows. You can shoot arrows better. You can shoot more arrows. You can power up your arrow shooting. Strictly speaking, I suppose it is an upgrade on the archer classes we have in the official stuff right here, but it doesn't feel like an upgrade so much as just a bump in power. You can shoot arrows better, and you get some skill points. That's about it. *shameless plug for my called shot system*

A few of my gripes with the class:
As it stands, it's fairly MAD. You need at least 10 STR (more to not get completely screwed over by any sort of ability drain), good DEX and WIS, and good CON. I'd recommend some sort of clause to allow WIS to help qualify for DEX related feats that relate directly to archery, and maybe help out initiative, but that's just me. I'd also consider bumping up the hit die to a d8; you're remarkably glass cannonish.
The power scaling rubs me wrong. The new iterative levels get the path progressions, and seem like Christmas to me. Some of the archery path abilities are ridiculous (but are kind of balanced by the level at which they come.)
I've got a lot of gripes with wording. Nobody else seemed to, though, so I don't think that that's too much of an issue.
For volley archers, did you get some sort of sneaky marketing deal with a d20 manufacturer?

What I like about this class:
Well, it's a better archer, at least, and I can't ever say no to that.
This class has got a lot of potential. The chassis's nice.

All in all, I'd say that this is a decent homebrew (with no sarcasm.) It has room for improvement.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-03, 04:56 PM
What, you made an archer class and didn't include Horizon Shot?

Elfstone
2011-06-03, 05:12 PM
Comments bolded :3
Hrawr; I had one DM turn it down because it was overpowered. The rest of the party looks like full casters. Though, Swiftblade was also turned down. Apparently having the ability to simulate spells and shoot arrows is more powerful than being able to cast genesis all day without restriction :I

I would suggest you stay far away from that DM... Unless it was for fluff reasons, Id think that GM was crazy.

Anyway, I think that the paragon abilities gained at 20th are lack luster. You need to be able to HiPS from at least level 11 or less (Wizards have invisibility from way earlier...) Ill post more in depth later. That just jumped out at me.

chrisrawr
2011-06-03, 09:35 PM
The Paragon and Peerless features are terrible right now; I've front-loaded the class and rand out of interesting things for it later on.

"What, you made an archer class and didn't include Horizon Shot? "

If you want Cragtop Archer, I've given everything needed to PrC into it at the earliest possible entry. Fixing Cragtop Archer can be another task, for someone else :I (someone better than me D: ) Though I agree, many of this class's abilities are meant to synergize well with the Cragtop Archer; It's such a nice 4 level PrC.

Mage: Your comments really help put things into a bit of perspective.

Since I also have an interest in this class and that I should really get to know this if you're going to use this in my game, here are my two cents, feature by feature.

I'm not the strongest mechanical person, nor the best eye for balance, so take all of this with a grain of salt. My opinion might be worth far less than I hope.

Spoiler
Chink in the Armour:
maybe I'm being silly, but it might make a bit more sense to let the effect last until right before the beginning of the Archer's next turn, for corner cases like wanting to make a readied attack with Chink in the Armour (since you can't do this as is--maybe consider letting people do that at a slightly later level.)

This will be changed to "For the rest of the round" - I dun goof'd. Perhaps I should change it to start as a Standard Action, allowing you to ready it if you so please?

The scaling's also a bit wonky, in my opinion. At level 1, trying to find a chink in the armour's ridiculously difficult against anyone in actual armour. It would probably get a bit better later in the game, but don't quote me on that.

At level 1, it can be anywhere from 2 to 9, without any other optimization. With 14 Wis and skill focus, you can get it to 9 no problem; an average 70% chance, with little drawback, as you still gain your attack. It stays around 70% with CR, as you stick a point in it each level, and occasionally buy something +wis. At level 5 you can have goggles of the eagle no problem, to keep up with any surprise boosts to AC.

Also, at level 7, way to encourage belts of battle (or Marshals.) :P
Belt of Battle is going to be amazing no matter what you put it on. It's just that good :D


Archer Paths:
Spoiler
Skirmish:
Maybe I don't play often enough, but how often do you absolutely need to attack in the middle of a move action that would justify this being a proper class feature, especially given that it has to sit next to x2 damage, and Rapid Shot redux at level 2?

It lets you attack from total cover; you can peek out, attack, and dodge back in. This lets you make sniping checks incredibly easily - free flat-footedness, and no retaliation until they start taking readied actions.

Sniping:
Why not just say "use normal multiplier stacking rules"? You're overcomplicating the wording, especially since it operates almost exactly as a critical hit's multiplier, if I'm not misreading this:
By the normal rules, a x2 and a x2 make a x3. By your wording, if you get a x2 critical on that special hit you do x1 which is doubled, then another x1--for x3. Even if a bow normally does x3, both methods still add up to x4.

It was meant to imply that the restrictions for critical hits - namely immunities - apply to it, but without their benefits (shocking burst, etc.)

Arrow Theory:
I like the idea here. If you want to give him more options, why not homebrew more of these, divide them into tiers, then give them several choices amongst the tier they're on?

I'd intended to break them up into level requirements, so that their DC's are slightly higher than a character's base craft ability with 14 Int. This would mean that the character would have to actually, you know, care about crafting his arrows.

Spoiler
Shattering Arrow:
Just nitpicking here: additional implies that you're doing damage to that 5 foot burst to begin with.

Will be fixed.

Flash-bang Arrow:
More nitpicking: I'm not sure why you added the "as the spell, except as noted" clause there. You've more or less covered your bases already, and you're only adding extra silliness--in that I think you've allowed the effect to be dismissable (debatable, of course),and made it treated as a spell, so globes of invulnerability ignore it (somewhat debatable, but why not just avoid this entirely?)

It causes both blindness and deafness. The spell causes one or the other. I'll probably just be rewording this entirely.

Incendiary Arrow:
Just nitpicking here, but you might want to define igniting the target (refer to Alchemist's Fire, etc.) Most people'd probably understand, though.

Clarification will be added.

Draining Arrow:
How does bleed damage work? Is this in a book I haven't read? (if it is, you might want to put a refer to Source, pg. or something: note.) If it isn't, how does it work? Does the draining arrow just do one extra point of bleeding damage, period? (beacuse that sort of stinks.)

Bleed damage deals itself once per round at the beginning of your turn, until a DC 15 heal check has been made, OR any amount of magical healing has been administered. I'd thought it was in the PHB, but it's in Complete Scoundrel, and a couple other places. I will be adding a definition for it to the class.

Precision Shooting:
How does this interact with a critical on Chink in the Armour? Would I assume it activates twice? By the wording, it's a bit confusing.

Double Precision on a critical is correct. An extra couple D8's at level 4 isn't going to phase much, considering sorcerers are going around tossing scorching rays out their bottoms.

Just my opinion here, but you should only really penalize the precision damage drop for the one attack you're making a maneuver on.

I'll consider it. I intend to rewrite the entire set of abilities; I'd like for there to be more, with scaling costs, and for there to be a mechanic to combine them, as well.

I think you're encouraging them to go all one way or the other. You're also encouraging trying these maneuvers on the last hit of their full round attacks--assuming they can hit (which probably will be the case.)

The damage is sacrificed on all attacks made that round. Attack rolls happen before damage rolls. I'll add a "declare your intent at the beginning of the round" dealio to clarify, though.

Ranged Bull Rush: You might want to add some clauses to defer to the normal Bull Rush rules in terms of bonuses (especially the more than 2 legs thing), because you're almost certainly not including all corner cases and bouts of silliness. Other than that, I like this class feature.

Will do. Knockback is a +3 modifier, meaning a bow of knockback costs 32,330gp at its very basic, least powerful self. This is unacceptable.

Vital Aim:
I understand the penalties cannot become bonuses clause is to prevent someone from completely dumping STR, but it also makes Rays of Enfeeblement stupidly good to use against Archers. "Oh, look, he has 10 STR, let's nullify his DEX or WIS for attacks." Also, in my opinion, this should come earlier.

Perhaps I'll slot it at level 3, and swap Arrow Theory out as a spell-like progression. You need 12 strength, actually, to make use of it. And having your Str zapped means you take nonproficiency penalties with composite bows.

Improved Vital Aim @ level 10:
...why would you base it off of the lower bonus? You're encouraging a bit of MAD here.

The archer is about Precision and Patience, with a side of Planning; He's no more MAD than the Warblade or SwordSage, which is where I want him.

Understandably, basing it off of the higher may not be too prudent either,

Agreed. Perhaps a set bonus, equal to 1/3-1/2 of the Archer's levels?

and I don't think people would appreciate trying to calculate the mean of the two stats in combat,

Heavens no!

so you might not have too many alternatives, however, in my opinion, it's really not asking much to get some sort of bonus to damage. Also, that's really mean to the skirmisher.
I'd also recommend you split the two parts of the ability to seperate entries. It's a bit weird reading.

I don't know whether to change this, or give the skirmisher a clause that allows him to gain Wis to damage. Agreed about setting it in its appropriate spot.

Improved Archer Paths:
Spoiler
Skirmish:
The wording confuses me somewhat. I'm not sure what the (this stacks) part means (the only thing I can think of is that it stacks with Manyshot and anything else that enhances Manyshot, to which end I say "wasn't that implied?")

D&D is an allowance based game; I have to specifically say it happens, or it doesn't. I'll remove the redundancy if I can get a couple others saying it's not needed, I suppose.

You might want to reword the last sentence a bit. May I suggest something like "In addition, the attack penalty from using Manyshot is lowered from -4 to -3, and the cumulative penalty for adding additional arrows is reduced from -2 to -1" or something to that effect?

Suggestion will be taken.

Also, does the feature's extra arrow also add a -2 penalty due to Manyshot?

Yes.


Sniping:
You're giving a lot of features there. Let me try this one at a time. Study Counters seem to be a bit of extra paperwork, but manageable.

I shamelessly stole the idea from here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150215&highlight=sniper) I intend to tweak it based on comments.

I won't complain there. I've already complained before about the critical threat range increase. Also, awesome, a WIS archer gets to double his stat bonuses to his attacks.

Critical range increase applies only to first attack made. Since critical hits are, in general, underpowered when compared to power attack and the likes, I figured that having a fairly decent critical chance in exchange for move actions wasn't a big deal. If it becomes a dominating feature, I will remove it, or tone it down.

Volley:
Wait, another free attack? Also, the volley ability confuses me somewhat. If he misses target A, he gets to re-roll the attack against A's buddy, B, but the target isn't changed at all? Are we hitting A or B, because I'm a little confused. Also, if you wanted to be really be a jerk in a strict reading, an opponent within 15 feet of the original target includes the original target, I think.

Crap, I wanted him to get an attack at 2, and at 11, with the ability to buy off the penalty from 2 with Imp Rapid Shot. Six was a carryover mistake :I The "target" thing is so that the archer can't benefit from Precision Damage against an opponent that was not his target. I'll change it to "This attack gains no benefits from Chink in the Armor, and Precision Damage cannot be applied to it."

Chink in the Armour @ Move Action:
At this point, I say "Get that belt of battle over here." Volley archers seem to be getting at least 5 touch attacks with added +2d8 precision damage on each. Granted, they might not all hit, but still, that's appreciable at level 7.

Two from Full-Round, or two from standard action if move is used? I think. Fighters get Dungeon Crasher at level 6. You be the judge :P

Greater Paths:
Spoiler
Skirmish:
I might be being stupid here, but you can use standard actions to move normally, and people would actually abuse this to justify writing that exception? Another attack? Double Manyshot attack routines? I think your Skirmish archer is about two attacks (from class features) behind the Volley archer, and +2 AB ahead.

Skirmish Archers are supposed to make up for having slightly less attacks by being more mobile. You raise an incredibly good point later on, and I feel silly for not noticing it myself. Yes, people would abuse this ability without the clause to either A) move infinitely far in a round, or B) do horrible, terrible things. People are mean, and I hate them.
+2AB?


Sniping:
Alright, awesome, I can now spot things several miles away with absolutely no penalty. I'd love to be a level 11 archer in the Sniping path just for that.

The spot rules in D&D are stupid. A supermegaoptimized spot person who isn't a wizard can only see maybe 2000-3000 feet. Normal people can't see the Sun, or Clouds, or anything outside of a ~500 foot bubble - and at that, only colossal+. The other option is to halve the penalties again, I suppose.

Volley:
More extra attacks. This has the potential to get really silly. since they can shoot 10 attacks in a full round action, each of them doing extra damage. With a belt of battle, proper weapons, buffs, and a nice powerful Vital Aim... you have appreciable damage output, at least.

Once Improved is fixed, at 11th level, the Archer should be putting out 6 from BAB, and 2 from Rapid Shot and Volley, for a total of 8. I can pop it down to 6, by bringing it to "an extra attack" - This way just feels like two-weapon fighting with perks, to me. The more I look at it, the more I think I'm going to swap it down.

Archer Paragon Path:
Spoiler
Skirmish:
This seems a bit weak.

AND uninspired!

Sniping:
This seems a bit strong, but probably isn't much to talk about at level 16.

I'm looking at a couple one-shots to test it against CR appropriate opponents.

Volley:
Goodie, Time Stands Still every other round! I think you might get some annoyed glares if you actually roll all of them. Also: warforged.

Warforged? Can't a Warblade use Time Stands Still every other round :S The archer gets it a level early, but the archer isn't a d12 chasis with full maneuvers.


Peerless Archer
I'd recommend changing this and other mentions of flat-footed to "denied dexterity to AC", mainly since I think there are some oddities in flat-footed vs. DEX to AC in the books. Don't quote me on that, though.

Flat footed is a special case of denied dex to ac. The opponent mustn't know you're there / where you are for it to be applicable.

With adequate eyesight, a volley archer properly built is now launching lots and lots of arrows at enemies thousands of feet away. No complaints here. Why couldn't this come earlier? :D

You should see my Cragtop Archer build; it can fire an arrow a mile away at no penalty. Remember the Archer is still limited to about 1000 feet because of his bow's range increments.

Skirmisher:
OK, a free +20 to massive damage save DCs.

DELICIOUS DEATH. DC 15 for eradicating half of a dragon seemed underwhelming to me. I'll scale it back for now, and see where testing goes.

Sniper:
You're just now giving HIPS?

Hrmmmm. I just don't know where to put it T_T

Volley-Man:
This is a really badass class feature name. It's like having a superhero for a class feature.

I COULDN'T THINK OF WHAT TO CALL IT! THE OTHER TWO ARE OBVIOUS!

A free double move per round is nice. Does the bleed damage carry through between rounds, becaue I can't see anything that'd say otherwise.

Yes. You are CHALK FULL OF ARROWS. SO MANY ARROWS.

...I won't comment on balance here, since this is a level 20 capstone, but I will comment on what bonuses we've gotten:

Skirmishing:
Two standard actions for multishots on the run, 6 shot multishots with absolutely no penalty, both of them can be combined to super shots with DC whatever + 20. Also, a tasty miss chance that seems to be completely unavoidable, that can be easily raised to high amounts if the archer took methods of being faster.

I'll cap the miss chance at 30; that was what was intended, and the rules will reflect on that. DCs will be scaled back (for now!) The Skirmisher in general feels subpar to me, and I have nothing in mind to fix it T_T


Sniper:
HIPS at level 20 up to +100 critical threat range, damage, and to hit. And the ability to do a +60 critical threat range, damage, and to hit attack as an immediate action. I've made the lightning mace comment before (though, admittedly, this is absurdly shaky; I think even a modron would smack you, though it might work with hand crossbows.) Notably, no ability to avoid miss chances.

I'll pop the Critical threat range down to 1/2 sniper levels, and take away its scaling so that it's only +1 per Counter. Miss chance will be removed at a rate of 5% per counter. +60 damage on a single attack that requires some modifiers seems alright to me, considering Barbarians get about that on every attack, and can pounce with it.

Volley-Man (awesome):
Withdraw as a free action, 24 (?) attacks per round with zero buffs, and a whole lot of bleed damage per round. If I did my math right, if all of them hit, that's 300 bleed damage. Also, wounding arrows. That is all.

I think it's 22, but it might be 20. It's a lot of bleed damage; might cap all bleed damage from the archer at 20, as this is still more than anything else I can think of.

...I realize this isn't world-shattering at level 20, but it feels somewhat wrong.
It is, however, very awesome.

Volley-Man: Wrong, but Awesome.

Closing comments on features:
Skirmish and Volley-Man both feel somewhat similar. Granted, a lot of the features and what they can do are different, but their modus operandi feel, at least, somewhat similar. Also, why did the Volley-Man get more mobile than the skirmisher at level 20, and get to keep the extra attacks? :/

I DON'T KNOW AHHHH. I'm going to remove the movement from the Volle-Man entirely and give him bonuses for STANDING HIS GROUND and BEING A BOSS. The Skirmisher will get... Something. I just feel so uninspired when I look at him, even though he's my favourite for rogues.



All in all, this class really feels like a one trick pony. You shoot arrows. You can shoot arrows better. You can shoot more arrows. You can power up your arrow shooting.

Isn't that all Wizards do, but with spells? Or Fighters, with attacks? Agreed, it's a... focused class. I'm open to anything to broaden its horizons :D

Strictly speaking, I suppose it is an upgrade on the archer classes we have in the official stuff right here, but it doesn't feel like an upgrade so much as just a bump in power. You can shoot arrows better, and you get some skill points. That's about it. *shameless plug for my called shot system*

If we can find a way to incorporate your called shot system into this class (if you're willing), I'm all for it.

A few of my gripes with the class:
As it stands, it's fairly MAD. You need at least 10 STR

12, and yeah, you won't find anyone who shoots arrows from a bow for a living with weak arms.

(more to not get completely screwed over by any sort of ability drain), good DEX and WIS, and good CON.

CON is a bit misleading; you preferably don't want to get hit at all. The class's main focuses are Dex and Wis, and it gets enough bonuses for having both to make it worth it, in my eyes.

I'd recommend some sort of clause to allow WIS to help qualify for DEX related feats that relate directly to archery, and maybe help out initiative, but that's just me.

Perhaps include this with Vital Aim, letting you do either or, or adding half the bonus (minimum 1) from the lowest? Also, if I swapped it to level 4, popped Precision Damage to 3, and moved Arrow Theory to 5? I'm going to dink with the class table in Word for a bit tonight, I guess.

I'd also consider bumping up the hit die to a d8; you're remarkably glass cannonish.

I'll see how fast it dies at 6 for now. If you want to wade into battles and charge range with this class, you're... I don't even know :I

The power scaling rubs me wrong. The new iterative levels get the path progressions, and seem like Christmas to me. Some of the archery path abilities are ridiculous (but are kind of balanced by the level at which they come.)

I basically stole the paths idea from Rangers. I still want 5 progressions; 5 is a magic number for D&D. Perhaps I'll go 5/10/15/20, giving me a bit of leeway to rearrange the other abilities?

I've got a lot of gripes with wording. Nobody else seemed to, though, so I don't think that that's too much of an issue.

It's very unpolished and redundant right now, as I want to keep clarity issues to a minimum. Also, there haven't been many reviews as in-depth as yours :smallbiggrin:

For volley archers, did you get some sort of sneaky marketing deal with a d20 manufacturer?

I have a thing for it. Our bees will blot out the sun/so we will hug in the shade, kind of thing.

What I like about this class:
Well, it's a better archer, at least, and I can't ever say no to that.
This class has got a lot of potential. The chassis's nice.

Agreed. I'm kind of frustruated with it at the moment, because my inspiration for class features and nice things petered out at level 11, but it's my baby and I love it D:

All in all, I'd say that this is a decent homebrew (with no sarcasm.) It has room for improvement.

I'd like to think so!



Blargh overhaul in process. I'm liking what I'm seeing so far, but if anything I feel like it's frontloading the class even more.

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 06:05 PM
Updated 6:03PM EST

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0| Precise Shot, Vital Aim

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0| Chink in the Armor (Standard)

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1| Precision Shooter +1d8

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1| Arrow Theory

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1| Archer's Path

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2| Precision Shooter +2d8

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2| Chink In the Armor (Move)

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Arrow Theory

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3| Precision Shooter +3d8

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3| Improved Archer's Path

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Improved Precise Shot, Improved Vital Aim

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4| Arrow Theory, Chink in the Armor (Swift), Precision Shooter +4d8

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4| Exhibitionist

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|Precision Shooter +5d8, Greater Archer Path

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5| Arrow Theory

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5 | Chink in the Armor (Free)

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|, Precision Shooter +6d8

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6| Legendary Exhibitionist

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6| Arrow Theory, Peerless Archer, Armor Piercing [/table]


Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate, Listen (Wis), Knowledge: Nature (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

New Abilities at 14, 19
Exhibitionist (Ex): The Archer may perform a stunt as part of an Intimidate check, substituting a single attack roll against a target at least 600 feet away for his Intimidate ranks. If this attack is against an opponent during the first round of combat, opponents suffer a -2 Morale Penalty to Attack and Damage rolls, Saves vs. Fear effects, and Skill checks until the Archer misses an attack in combat.

Legendary Exhibitionist (Ex): The Morale Penalty from the Archer's Exhibitionist ability increases to -4, and the Archer and his allies gain a +2 Morale bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, and Saves vs Fear effects until the Archer misses an attack in combat. As well, the Archer's critical hits and successful Exhibitionist attacks demoralize opponents within 30 feet of the target by 1 step. This demoralization stacks with itself.


Something to toy with, for now.

137beth
2011-06-04, 06:55 PM
Hrawr; I had one DM turn it down because it was overpowered. The rest of the party looks like full casters. Though, Swiftblade was also turned down. Apparently having the ability to simulate spells and shoot arrows is more powerful than being able to cast genesis all day without restriction :I
I don't think that should be a limiting factor, that DM simply had a poor understanding of game balance.

Anyways, because this class is extremely combat focused, I think it should be substantially more powerful, as it has no place outside of combat.

To help deal with MAD, eliminate the restriction on Str penalties for damage given in Vital Aim. Specifically: allow the archer to substitute their dex or wis bonus for a str bonus/penalty for damag. There's still some MAD, but not quite as much.

As an additional feature (I'm not sure where this would best fit), increase the range increment of all bows, and allow archers to make Sneak Attacks from further away. This could upgrade over several levels, and fill in some of the dead level gaps.

Give the sniper archer Sneak Attack.

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 07:02 PM
I don't think that should be a limiting factor, that DM simply had a poor understanding of game balance.

Anyways, because this class is extremely combat focused, I think it should be substantially more powerful, as it has no place outside of combat.

To help deal with MAD, eliminate the restriction on Str penalties for damage given in Vital Aim. Specifically: allow the archer to substitute their dex or wis bonus for a str bonus/penalty for damag. There's still some MAD, but not quite as much.

As an additional feature (I'm not sure where this would best fit), increase the range increment of all bows, and allow archers to make Sneak Attacks from further away. This could upgrade over several levels, and fill in some of the dead level gaps.

Give the sniper archer Sneak Attack.


I'd debated it, but opted for Precision Damage instead; I'm going to be expanding Precision Shooting and Arrow Theory substantially during this overhaul, giving them performance abilities and support options (flare arrows, alarm arrows, splitting an arrow with another arrow, trick shots, called shots, etc.)

I'm currently overhauling many of the class features; I'm setting Improved Vital Aim up to be a straight 1/2 Archer Levels to damage, and I'm reworking the Paths to 5/10/15/20. This leaves many levels open for perhaps the choice between an animal companion and a weapon familiar.

Elfstone
2011-06-04, 07:04 PM
If you want to make it much more powerful, make the attacks more "powerful" to the point that they ignore immunity to critical hits (on golems and such). That would be a decent capstone.

Lyndworm
2011-06-04, 07:16 PM
Maybe add some bonus feats? You'd need to make an archery-specific list, but I'd be willing to scrounge some of my resources and help with that. Maybe 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19? Seven is a really nice number, and it would fill some of your blank spots. It would also alleviate some of the feat-dependency archery has.

Preliminary Feat List:
Able Sniper, Bowslinger, Deadeye Shot, Defensive Archery, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(?), Far Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Mobility, Penetrating Shot, Plunging Shot, Point Blank Shot, Power Critical, Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm(?), Ranged Pin(?), Ranged Sunder(?), Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run(?), Skill Focus, Stealthy, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Woodland Archer, Zen Archery
Assuming you went that route, you'd only have to fill the 14th and 19th level abilities. That's a 5 level gap, and a really nice place to put a scaling ability. I'm thinking something with called shots and critical hits, like reducing the attack bonus by 3 to increase the threat range and/or multiplier by 1... Any thoughts?

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 07:58 PM
Maybe add some bonus feats? You'd need to make an archery-specific list, but I'd be willing to scrounge some of my resources and help with that. Maybe 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19? Seven is a really nice number, and it would fill some of your blank spots. It would also alleviate some of the feat-dependency archery has.

I was hoping to avoid bonus feats, adding what I needed through class features (Manyshot was already written out for me, so I kept it as such, but for Pathfinder play I would write it out.)

Assuming you went that route, you'd only have to fill the 14th and 19th level abilities. That's a 5 level gap, and a really nice place to put a scaling ability. I'm thinking something with called shots and critical hits, like reducing the attack bonus by 3 to increase the threat range and/or multiplier by 1... Any thoughts?

I can see putting something nice in at 14 and 19. Called shots looks like a nice piece, but it and Critical Hit shenanigans will be going into Precision Damage. Perhaps some demoralizing or exhibitionist stunts? At 14th level, you're probably renowned enough to have a bit of a reputation to exploit :P




If you want to make it much more powerful, make the attacks more "powerful" to the point that they ignore immunity to critical hits (on golems and such). That would be a decent capstone.



I want to make it more versatile; if I want to add power, I've got a bunch of class features that I can always just add a "The Archer gains a +1 untyped bonus to his ranged attack's damage rolls" clause to. The Sniper has been given a feature to remove immunities at 15, as well as HiPS at 10 and improved HiPS at 20, AS WELL as no sniping penalties at 15. The Skirmisher has been given Evasion/Improved Evasion. Volley Archer is already powerful, for now at least.

Lyndworm
2011-06-04, 08:03 PM
I was hoping to avoid bonus feats, adding what I needed through class features (Manyshot was already written out for me, so I kept it as such, but for Pathfinder play I would write it out.)
Fair enough. I'm afraid that I'm out of ideas... :smallfrown:

I'll keep checking back, though; keep up the good work.

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 08:20 PM
Fair enough. I'm afraid that I'm out of ideas... :smallfrown:

I'll keep checking back, though; keep up the good work.

I filled the dead levels with Exhibitionist and Legendary Exhibitionist; 13th level might get a bonus feat to be forever alone with.

Lyndworm
2011-06-04, 08:33 PM
I like'em, mostly.

As it's currently worded, the enemy must be at least 605ft away. Is this intentional? It seems a little odd.

Also, why Perform? Since you're substituting an attack roll anyway, wouldn't Intimidate make more sense?

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 09:46 PM
Gha, I wrote performance once and then perform was stuck in my head. Intimidate was intended, thanks. Swapped to "at least 600 feet" from "more than." Many thanks :D

Lyndworm
2011-06-04, 09:49 PM
So you can't make this check against an enemy 100ft away, or 30ft away? I suppose that's a truly Archeresque ability... No other class could even make the Spot check to see an enemy that far out.




I understand that the class is intentionally built low and unfinished right now, but you may want to check out the Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150215&highlight=sniper) for inspiration. It's not perfect (I have a few modifications I make to actually use it), but it's very nice.
Would you be interested in seeing the changes I make to the Sniper class? They're mostly small, but it could help you, I suppose.

Here they are:
The Sniper

Alignment: Snipers can be of any alignment.
Hit Die: d6. A sniper focuses on the ability to defeat enemies from afar rather than face them in melee.
Starting Gold: As Rogue.

Class Skills:
The class skills for a Sniper(and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6+Int Mod) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: (6+Int Mod)

The Sniper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st Level|2nd Level|3rd Level|4th Level

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Eagle’s Eye, Trapfinding|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Stationary Protection|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Uncanny Vision, Great Precision|-|-|-|-

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat, Undaunted Missiles|0|-|-|-

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Definite Strike, Extended Range|0|-|-|-

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|Quick Missiles, Reactive Shot|1|-|-|-

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|Master Sniper|1|-|-|-

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat, Excellent Vision, Improved Eagle's Eye|1|0|-|-

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+3|Hide In Plain Sight|1|0|-|-

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+3|Endless Range, Sniper's Sight|1|1|-|-

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+3|Piercing Missiles|1|1|0|-

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat|1|1|1|-

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Awesome Vision|1|1|1|-

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+4|Expert Sniper|2|1|1|0

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+5|Greater Eagle's Eye, Infinite Range|2|1|1|1

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat|2|2|1|1

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Hail of Missiles|2|2|2|1

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Flawless Vision|3|2|2|1

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Unparalleled Sniper|3|3|3|2

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Bonus Feat, Perfect Eagle’s Eye|3|3|3|3[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Snipers are proficient in the use of all simple weapons, plus all straight bows. Snipers are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Spellcasting:
A sniper casts Arcane spells which are drawn from the sniper spell list, below. A sniper regains spell slots after 8 hours of rest. He casts spells as a sorcerer, using the sniper spell list as his spell’s known list.

To cast a spell, the sniper must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sniper’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sniper's Intelligence modifier. A sniper gains bonus spells per day based on his Intelligence score.

Eagle’s Eye (Ex):
By focusing on an opponent, a sniper can study him or her, focusing in on the target’s weak points and movement patterns. By spending a move action observing a creature, a sniper can get a lock on that creature. On the next attack the sniper makes against that creature, he gets a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls, a +1d6 bonus on damage, and an increase of 1 to his critical threat range. A sniper can maintain multiple locks on the same creature, and may maintain a number of locks equal to his class level. Multiple locks stack, unlike most competence bonuses. The extra damage from a lock is precision damage, and is not normally able to affect creatures immune to critical hits.

Trapfinding (Ex):
Snipers can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Snipers can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A sniper who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

Stationary Protection (Ex):
Snipers often find themselves staying in one place for long periods of time. As such, snipers train to turn a lack of movement into protection. At the end of each sniper’s round, if the sniper did not move, he gains a +1 competence bonus to AC. This ability stacks with itself, to a maximum AC bonus of ½ the sniper’s class level.

Uncanny Vision (Ex):
A sniper gains a +5 bonus on all Spot checks, and a +2 bonus on Initiative checks.

Great Precision (Ex):
The sniper has spent countless hours training to place his shots accurately, to inflict the maximum amount of damage with arrow or bolt. A sniper may add his Intelligence modifier to all damage he deals with ranged weapons as precision damage. Additionally, by taking the entire round to study his opponent a sniper may gain three locks at once, though gaining locks in this way does not increase the maximum amount of locks held.

Undaunted Missiles (Ex):
Snipers, although they aim for one point, can still hit despite missing that point. Whenever a sniper attacks a creature that he has a lock on and misses by 3 or less, the sniper may deal normal weapon damage to that creature.

Bonus Feat:
The sniper gains any Ranged Combat, Skill Focus or Weapon Focus feat for which he meets the prerequisites. He gains another Bonus Feat every four levels after 4th (at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th).

Extended Range (Ex):
The sniper trains long and hard to increase the range at which he can deal death on swift wings. The range increment of any projectile wielded by the sniper increases by 50%. The range increment of any thrown weapon wielded by the sniper increases to 100%.

Definite Strike (Ex):
A sniper's accuracy with his weapon is undaunted, allowing him to scope out weak points in any being. Whenever a sniper attacks a creature that he has at least one lock on, that creature takes half damage from precision damage and critical hits from that attack. This ability does not apply to creatures that are immune to critical hits due to the Fortification ability.

Improved Eagle’s Eye (Ex):
A sniper’s use of his Eagle’s Eye ability matures, giving him the ability to further analyze his targets. A sniper may use a move action to create two locks instead of one, or he may spend the entire round studying his opponent to gain six locks instead of three. These locks may be on the same creature or different creatures.

Master Sniper (Ex):
A sniper becomes a master at dealing damage while hidden. When a sniper makes a hide check after a successful attack, he only takes a -10 penalty, as opposed to the normal -20 penalty.

Excellent Vision (Ex):
A sniper's bonus on Spot checks increases to +10, and his bonus on Initiative checks increases to +4.

Quick Missiles (Ex):
A sniper’s training allows him to attack more quickly than normal. A sniper may make a single attack with any ranged weapon as a Swift action. The sniper deals minimum Eagle's Eye damage with this attack. For example, if the sniper has six locks on a target and uses Quick Missiles to fire a missile as a Swift action, that attack does +6 damage rather than +6d6.

Reactive Shot (Ex):
If a creature within 15' of the sniper takes an action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, he may make a single ranged attack against it at his highest attack bonus. This consumes all of his remaining Attacks of Opportunity for the round. At 15th level this ability can be used out to 20', and at 20th level this ability can be used out to 25'.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
The sniper’s long training in the wild allows him to fade into the shadows. As long as the sniper is within a shadowed area, he may use the hide skill without concealment.

Endless Range (Ex):
A sniper’s skill at hitting far away creatures increases farther. The range increment of any thrown weapon wielded by the sniper increases by a total 200%. The range increment of any projectile weapon wielded by the sniper increases by a total 100%.

Sniper's Sight (Su):
The sniper’s choice of spells is a careful assortment, chosen to aid the sniper instead of hindering him. The sniper can see and attack through any effect of any spell he casts. For example, the sniper would ignore the concealment of other creatures within his Fog Cloud spell, in addition to being able to see through it as easily as normal weather.

Piercing Missiles (Ex):
A sniper can pour so much force into his weapons that they can slice right through one creature and hit another. Whenever a sniper makes a ranged attack, successfully hits a creature, and has another creature in the weapon’s path, he may make an attack against the second creature at a -5 penalty to hit.

Awesome Vision (Ex):
A sniper's bonus on Spot checks increases to +15, and his bonus on Initiative checks increases to +6.

Expert Sniper (Ex):
A sniper becomes an expert at dealing damage while hidden. When a sniper makes a hide check after a successful attack, he only takes a -5 penalty, as opposed to the normal -10 penalty.

Infinite Range (Ex):
A sniper becomes able to hit enemies accurately, no matter what the distance between him and his target. A sniper only takes a -1 penalty per range increment, instead of -2.

Greater Eagle's Eye (Ex):
A sniper’s ability to lock onto targets becomes nearly inhuman. A sniper may now use a move action to create three locks, or he may spend the entire round studying his opponent to gain nine locks. These locks may be on the same creature or different creatures.

Flawless Vision (Ex):
A sniper's bonus on Spot checks increases to +20, and his bonus on Initiative checks increases to +8.

Unparalleled Sniper (Ex):
A sniper takes no hide penalty after attacking, instead of a -5 penalty.

Hail of Missiles (Ex):
As a full round action, a sniper can fire a missile at each target within range. Each attack uses the sniper's highest attack bonus and each enemy may only be targeted by a single missile. Extra damage from Eagle's eye applies to any enemy with at least one lock on it.

Perfect Eagle’s Eye (Ex):
A sniper’s ability to lock onto targets almost infallible. A sniper may now use a move action to create four locks, or he may spend the entire round studying his opponent to gain twelve locks. These locks may be on the same creature or different creatures.



Sniper Spells:
1st Level: Accelerated Movement, Arrow Mind, Camouflage, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Jump, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Pass Without Trace, Rooftop Strider, Sniper's Shot, True Strike

2nd level: Cat's Grace, Darkness, Easy Climb, Flame Arrow, Fog Cloud, Greater Magic Weapon, Invisibility, Owl's Wisdom, See Invisibility, Snare, Spiderclimb, Undetectable Alignment, Web

3rd level: Arcane Sight, Discern Shapechanger, Keen Edge, Flashburst, Gaseous Form, Nondetection, Shrink Item, Sleet Storm, Water Breathing, Weapon of Impact, Wraithstrike

4th level: Arrow Storm, Bane Bow, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Illusory Wall, Solid Fog

chrisrawr
2011-06-04, 10:43 PM
Hrawr, I'll gladly look-over and pull from your wisdom :3 The Exhibitionist ability is a no-save demoralization, and although it's a mere fear effect, it will be useful in battles. I originally intended it to be 300 feet, and I think I'll go back to that; I need to add a clause that says "Also the enemy needs to see you for this to work because otherwise it's just arrows, arrows everywhere."

As well, for ease of placement, Here is the current updated overhaul. I've incorporated changes proposed for what I hope are many serious improvements. The paths need to be are properly spaced again; I had them put together so I could observe what they looked like a bit easier. As well, I still need a good idea for Peerless Archer; it feels like it could use a bit more of a cap than what the paths are giving it.

Peerless Archer Updated:
Peerless Archer (Ex): At 20th level, In any encounter which the Archer may take part of a surprise round, the Archer may take a full round, instead of the normal standard action. The penalties to Ranged Attacks and Spot Checks due to range are halved, and the Archer may take 10 on Ranged Attack rolls and on his class skills.

Is this too powerful? Too limited in use? Too boring?


Changing Precision Damage to "Precision Archery", changing 1d8's to precision tokens, which can be exchanged for a variety of effects.

chrisrawr
2011-06-08, 02:12 PM
Precision Archery and Archery token progression added - Tell me what you think! Especially tell me if I've ruined everything forever :smalleek:

Gardener
2011-06-08, 07:55 PM
Called Shot: Lung is way too cheap for what it does. If you take two shots to the lungs, you're suffocating, which means you get one round of being staggered before you fall unconscious. Especially with the rate at which the tokens regenerate (so as long as I keep full-attacking, I can keep spending all my tokens every turn?), an Archer is going to turn a lot of encounters into "pierce both its lungs before it mauls me to death". Possibly swap it with Hand in the progression for Called Shots.

Also, Ranged Bull Rush seems *really* expensive for just 5 feet - Ranged Trip costs less than half as much, and takes out a whole move action.

Otherwise, it looks like a clever and interesting set of mechanics - it is to maneuvers what psionics is to magic.

chrisrawr
2011-06-08, 09:21 PM
Called Shot: Lung is way too cheap for what it does. If you take two shots to the lungs, you're suffocating, which means you get one round of being staggered before you fall unconscious. Especially with the rate at which the tokens regenerate (so as long as I keep full-attacking, I can keep spending all my tokens every turn?), an Archer is going to turn a lot of encounters into "pierce both its lungs before it mauls me to death". Possibly swap it with Hand in the progression for Called Shots.

Also, Ranged Bull Rush seems *really* expensive for just 5 feet - Ranged Trip costs less than half as much, and takes out a whole move action.

Otherwise, it looks like a clever and interesting set of mechanics - it is to maneuvers what psionics is to magic.

I'll be messing with the DC's, costs, and attack penalties/other requirements for a lot of the Called Shots as I get play-test results; Called Shots to lungs will likely have a damage requirement very soon, as Heart does - heart and lungs damage requirements may go up substantially depending on the damage I start seeing.

Bull Rush get an extra 5 feet for every 5 you beat the check by, doesn't it? Since the DC is damage based, you can boost the distance with precision damage and other modifiers; you can easily push someone back a move action or farther with the Sniper path, or later on, the skirmish path - As it is already, the Volley path can trigger a bull rush attempt on almost every attack - a +3 weapon modifier. I'll also be adding clause so that it doesn't benefit from certain abilities (cough dungeoncrasher cough cough).

As for the way you have tokens regenerating - your pool is full for any attack action you make. You can make a single attack as a free action? Full pool for it. Full attack? Full pool. It doesn't discriminate; you can't be as precise with a volley of attacks as you can with a single intentional attack (although the Volley path hopes to mitigate this somewhat, at the expense of mobility of course.)

"15. ". 7:25PM, PST, 2011 - Hand and Lung Called Shot costs swapped. Damage requirement added to Lung. Ranged Bull Rush no longer works with Dungeon Crasher and similar feats/abilities."
This should alleviate the problem, thanks :D

Any ideas for feats, Archery Token abilities, Called Shots, tricks, etc., are gladly welcome :D

Dryad
2011-06-08, 09:23 PM
I'm a bit in two minds about 'Called Shots,' because.. Well; called shots are already in the game. I was hoping for a removal of the penalties to attack rolls, but instead, you gave them a bit of a re-work. Which makes it awkward for other people using called shots. I'm not opposed to the rework you gave them, of course. ^_^ But it would mean that a fighter could use the same called shots without paying Token points for it. In fact; the Archer could in theory use the exact same effects without spending Token points. Anyone can poke someone's liver out, if they know where to find the liver.

Exhibitionist:
Two problems. One: You substitute a roll for(?)(with) intimidate ranks. Now; at lvl 10, you'll have thirteen ranks (max), and an average roll of twenty (10+BaB, no modifiers). So that's not very good.
Two: Is it still an attack? Do you try to hit against AC, against a save, against an opposed skill check/opposed skill ranks? Does it deal damage? What does it do? It's very unclear.
Three: Why would an ability called 'exhibitionist' ever be associated with an archer? I just don't see it working, flavour-wise.

For everything else: Even though the phrasing is unclear at some points, and a tad haphazard at other points, I really do love this class! Keep up the good work!

Gardener
2011-06-08, 09:45 PM
Bull Rush get an extra 5 feet for every 5 you beat the check by, doesn't it? Since the DC is damage based, you can boost the distance with precision damage and other modifiers; you can easily push someone back a move action or farther with the Sniper path, or later on, the skirmish path - As it is already, the Volley path can trigger a bull rush attempt on almost every attack - a +3 weapon modifier. I'll also be adding clause so that it doesn't benefit from certain abilities (cough dungeoncrasher cough cough).

Actually, the "except as follows" bit of Ranged Bull Rush includes "If this attack hits and deals damage, the target is pushed back 5 feet". This replaces the normal pushback distance of a Bull Rush.

Frankly, the ability could use a good re-word. Perhaps something like this?

Forceful Shot.
By spending seven Precision Tokens, an Archer can make one of his ranged attacks a Forceful Shot. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must make a Strength check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be pushed back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet per 5 points the check is failed by. This Strength check gains any bonuses or penalties the target has to resist a bull rush.

We don't need a clause to avoid Dungeoncrasher or similar because the attack was never a bull rush to begin with, and since the DC is set by the damage, not rolled as a Strength check, Improved Bull Rush and similar never applied to begin with.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-09, 12:53 PM
I don't see the point of the token system, if they refresh every time you use them. You use them on an attack, and then the attack refreshes your pool. In other words, you might as well just have a set number of customization slots to put the abilities into for each attack.

chrisrawr
2011-06-09, 02:53 PM
Replies in Bold


I don't see the point of the token system, if they refresh every time you use them. You use them on an attack, and then the attack refreshes your pool. In other words, you might as well just have a set number of customization slots to put the abilities into for each attack.


It scales the abilities you can use, and the amount of combinations you can do in an attack; You can't use some called shots or abilities like Bull Rush until later levels. It also limits the number of abilities you can apply per attack per attack action - a Full Attack Action only gets you 6 tokens to spread among your arrows, while a standard attack action would get you 6 tokens for that single arrow. Is this relevant at all to what you were talking about?




I'm a bit in two minds about 'Called Shots,' because.. Well; called shots are already in the game.


I didn't know there was a Called Shots system in the game! There's a 3.0 version, I think, but there's nothing about it I can find in 3.5 or pathfinder.


I was hoping for a removal of the penalties to attack rolls, but instead, you gave them a bit of a re-work. Which makes it awkward for other people using called shots. I'm not opposed to the rework you gave them, of course. ^_^ But it would mean that a fighter could use the same called shots without paying Token points for it.


I don't actually think you can use an ability simply because it has the same name as another ability; D&D is an allowance based game, and the only way to use the abilities listed under the Archer's Precision Archery is by spending Archery Tokens.


In fact; the Archer could in theory use the exact same effects without spending Token points. Anyone can poke someone's liver out, if they know where to find the liver.


See above; One thing I thought of was Meta-Archery or Archery Mastery feats, but that's pushing too far into the spells/psionics territory.

Exhibitionist:
Two problems. One: You substitute a roll for(?)(with) intimidate ranks. Now; at lvl 10, you'll have thirteen ranks (max), and an average roll of twenty (10+BaB, no modifiers). So that's not very good.


This ability either A) saves you skill points, if you never intended to focus on being scary, or B) gives you the chance to intimidate at range, with extra effects. The intimidate roll at level 10 will be closer to 16 (10BAB+4Abilit Mod+Enhancement Bonus +2) - Giving you an average roll of 26, which is quite decent.


Two: Is it still an attack?


Yes. It's an attack action against a target (which may be an opponent). This will be clarified.


Do you try to hit against AC, against a save, against an opposed skill check/opposed skill ranks? Does it deal damage? What does it do? It's very unclear.


You make an attack against a target at least 300 feet away. You make an attack roll against that target's AC. This attack grants special bonuses if it's against an opponent, and the roll's result is used as an intimidation check. This will be clarified.


Three: Why would an ability called 'exhibitionist' ever be associated with an archer? I just don't see it working, flavour-wise.


Think: Robin Hood - Exhibitions are a large part of how Archers compare their e-peens.


For everything else: Even though the phrasing is unclear at some points, and a tad haphazard at other points, I really do love this class! Keep up the good work!

Thank you very much! Thank you for your critique; Exhibitionist wording changes and a bit of a rewrite, and perhaps a name change for Called Shots (to remove confusion with any other similar abilities) will be made.




Actually, the "except as follows" bit of Ranged Bull Rush includes "If this attack hits and deals damage, the target is pushed back 5 feet". This replaces the normal pushback distance of a Bull Rush.

Frankly, the ability could use a good re-word. Perhaps something like this?


Agreed :D


Forceful Shot.
By spending seven Precision Tokens, an Archer can make one of his ranged attacks a Forceful Shot. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must make a Strength check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be pushed back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet per 5 points the check is failed by. This Strength check gains any bonuses or penalties the target has to resist a bull rush.

We don't need a clause to avoid Dungeoncrasher or similar because the attack was never a bull rush to begin with, and since the DC is set by the damage, not rolled as a Strength check, Improved Bull Rush and similar never applied to begin with.


Wonderful and elegant; it will be replacing my drivel at once!

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-09, 06:37 PM
Thing is, your pool refreshes with every attack you make, meaning that you do have access to your full token pool for each individual attack in a full attack. This means that you're not really 'expending' points so much as filling slots.

Also, the ranged pin feat is not exactly useful, unless you rework it so as to only require the target and a surface to pin them against. It's not hard to imagine putting an arrow through someone's arm to pin them instead of through their sleeve.

chrisrawr
2011-06-09, 07:56 PM
Thing is, your pool refreshes with every attack you make, meaning that you do have access to your full token pool for each individual attack in a full attack. This means that you're not really 'expending' points so much as filling slots.

Also, the ranged pin feat is not exactly useful, unless you rework it so as to only require the target and a surface to pin them against. It's not hard to imagine putting an arrow through someone's arm to pin them instead of through their sleeve.

Ranged pin is wonderfully useful as is; remember that the ground is a surface.

The Token Pool explicitly refreshes with each attack action the Archer makes, not with each attack.

mucco
2011-06-12, 05:25 PM
Regarding Ranged Pin, I always considered that feat very broken. Mix it with the Volley variant of your class, haste, and Rapid Shot at level six. You get five arrows, and the target will have to remove each one via a standard action. Mix it with a Belt of Battle, and you can have someone pop arrows out of the ground for a full minute before they can do anything else.

The rest of the class looks awesome! Kinda reminds me of Incarnum with the bonus points you can reposition each time... should be fun to play.

EDIT: looking better into this class, something about called shots didn't convince me. The DC seems a bit too high: some effects are save-or-lose like stun, daze, suffocate. With a DC == 10 + damage + points spent, I believe it's a bit too high.

Hope you don't mind if I do some math here :smallsmile:

Let's take a decently optimized level 11 Archer who started with 20 Dex and now has 26 (+2 increments, +4 item). He also invested his resources in a Fierce Collision Composite +1 bow, and let's say he has 12 Str. Deciding to put all his Dex into damage, he now can shoot an arrow dealing 1d8+8(Vital Aim)+8(Fierce)+5(Collision)+1(enh. bonus)+1(composite) = 1d8+23, averaging 27.5 damage. Let's say he's a skirmisher. His manyshot can employ four arrows for average 110 damage. +2d4 just for kicks. He'll shoot to the head, forcing a Fort DC 129 to not be stunned, dazed, and sickened.

He'll then move 10 feet and add another Manyshot, aiming at an Ability Score of his choice and dealing average 6 damage, DC 129 save.

End result: 225 average damage, target out of combat for two rounds and probably for the rest of the encounter. A bit strong if you ask me.

May I suggest the usual progression of 1/2 Archer level + Dex? Also maybe banning Fierce looks like a sane choice, given Vital Aim to put Dex into damage. Still it's probably over 150 dmg per round at level 11, maybe a bit high, don't know.

Oh and a crit would make stuff explode xD

Moar EDIT: man, I just pictured myself screaming MANYSHOT STRAIGHT IN HIS EYE! while playing. Four arrows in a single eye. Awesomeness. Keep the work up.

chrisrawr
2011-06-12, 07:58 PM
Regarding Ranged Pin, I always considered that feat very broken. Mix it with the Volley variant of your class, haste, and Rapid Shot at level six. You get five arrows, and the target will have to remove each one via a standard action. Mix it with a Belt of Battle, and you can have someone pop arrows out of the ground for a full minute before they can do anything else.

The rest of the class looks awesome! Kinda reminds me of Incarnum with the bonus points you can reposition each time... should be fun to play.

EDIT: looking better into this class, something about called shots didn't convince me. The DC seems a bit too high: some effects are save-or-lose like stun, daze, suffocate. With a DC == 10 + damage + points spent, I believe it's a bit too high.

Hope you don't mind if I do some math here :smallsmile:

Let's take a decently optimized level 11 Archer who started with 20 Dex and now has 26 (+2 increments, +4 item). He also invested his resources in a Fierce Collision Composite +1 bow, and let's say he has 12 Str. Deciding to put all his Dex into damage, he now can shoot an arrow dealing 1d8+8(Vital Aim)+8(Fierce)+5(Collision)+1(enh. bonus)+1(composite) = 1d8+23, averaging 27.5 damage. Let's say he's a skirmisher. His manyshot can employ four arrows for average 110 damage. +2d4 just for kicks. He'll shoot to the head, forcing a Fort DC 129 to not be stunned, dazed, and sickened.

He'll then move 10 feet and add another Manyshot, aiming at an Ability Score of his choice and dealing average 6 damage, DC 129 save.

End result: 225 average damage, target out of combat for two rounds and probably for the rest of the encounter. A bit strong if you ask me.

May I suggest the usual progression of 1/2 Archer level + Dex? Also maybe banning Fierce looks like a sane choice, given Vital Aim to put Dex into damage. Still it's probably over 150 dmg per round at level 11, maybe a bit high, don't know.

Oh and a crit would make stuff explode xD

Moar EDIT: man, I just pictured myself screaming MANYSHOT STRAIGHT IN HIS EYE! while playing. Four arrows in a single eye. Awesomeness. Keep the work up.

For a minute there, I was really worked up - you'd found my secret backdoor a serious flaw in the mechanics to fix- hooray!

But then I remembered that each attack from a manyshot requires its own allotment of archery tokens, and they apply their DC's separately - meaning that, using your example, the DC will be around 27.5 for each effect - 19.5, when you consider that not every DM will allow 3.0 material (the Fierce enhancement, from the A&E, IIRC?) in their 3.5+ games.

His arrows also have to hit, which, while a bunch easier due to chink in the armor, still ends up at around an 83% chance on average (70% to hit the spot DC, 95% to hit unless they're ridiculously Dex based, or have non-standard armor bonuses). While still high, there's a flat miss chance that applies before you even get to apply the effect. Still, I'm thinking of changing it to 10+1/2damage dealt; I've always felt that "character level" - while a good progression statistic mechanically speaking - is incredibly unflavorful. This change would help early characters, and tone later ones way down - An incredibly skilled, high level archer that deals no damage to the monster whose eye he's trying to put out still putting the eye out makes less sense than a lucky shot by a plucky young wannabee's arrow critting for full and slamming right through that eye.

I'd thought about making the Skirmisher's manyshot count as a 'single attack' for all purposes, but it ended up feeling too much like a mobile sniper, without all the studying. The Sniper's path is what's really going to test the limits of called shots' DC's - If it becomes too unbalanced, I might unfavorably switch it to a level-based progression, no matter how flavorful a sniper shooting someone's eye out is.

chrisrawr
2011-06-16, 05:31 AM
I'm looking for abilities to replace the Bleed Damage from the Peerless Archer's Volley Path. I'm also looking for aid in fleshing out and balancing the skirmisher's path. Finally, if anyone has ideas for arrows or Precision Abilities, shoot them at me - Arrows are not limited to 3 per level scheme, and Precision Effects, well, if anyone has a way to make some kind of penetrating line shot work, I'm all ears.

Bleed Damage Replacement:
One proposal is extra attacks as free actions, at the cost of Hit points and ability scores. But, devising a system for this that's not inherently abusable (fast healing and strongheart vest somehow?) is looking to be a challenge. Making it encounter or round-based, so as to avoid a 5-minute workday, is another problem. Avoiding the Volley-Man going nova on everything and then retreating to rest in a rope trick or similar easily accessible hide-away is, again, another problem.

My proposal: "The Archery may make a number of desperation attacks each round equal to his Dexterity Bonus. These desperation attacks are made as free actions, any time during the round (even when it is not the Archer's turn). Each desperation attack costs 5 health. For every 10 health spent on this ability, the Archer takes a -1 penalty to Dexterity for the rest of the encounter."

The Skirmisher:
The skirmish path is teetering on the verge of being 'almost worth it' in comparison to the other two, mechanically. If it gets any direct buffs, it becomes silly powerful, in comparison. If I take something out, it looses feel, and becomes clearly underpowered.

I really have nothing to fix this at the moment. I enjoy skirmish battles, blends of stealth and scouting, reactionary clashes and chance encounters, but D&D (and table-top games in general) have always left me feeling a little empty when it comes to this kind of playstyle, so I've got nothing to build on.
Any help with this would be appreciated.

chrisrawr
2011-07-01, 04:53 PM
Remaking the paths, splitting Precision Archery into Archer's Tricks and Called Shots.

Path Remake basics: I've re-split the paths into 5 steps, placing step 1 at level 1. This is to immediately differentiate the class's flavors, and make it more attractive overall.



The Skirmish path has been changed quite a bit - it's now much more focused on sustained harassment than it was - repeatedly dancing into range for large gains is now incredibly potent.

Skirmish

At 1st Level, the Archer may take a Standard action at any point during a Move Action used to move, though he may not use his Standard action to move as well. (This ability is similar to Fly-by attack. If there is confusion on what one can and can't do with this ability, refer to Fly-by attack.) As well, the Archer gains a +10 Skirmish bonus to all of his Move Speeds

Skirmish

At 5th Level, the Archer gains the following bonus feats: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot. He gains the benefits of these feats even if he does not meet their prerequisites. If the Archer already has a feat listed here, for each feat listed here he has he may choose another feat that he qualifies for, and gain that instead. As well, the Archer gains the benefits of Evasion during any round he moves more than 10 feet.


Skirmish

At 10th Level, the Archer gains an extra Standard Action, once per round, that can only be used during a Move Action in which the Archer moves more than 10 feet. This Standard Action cannot be used to move. The Archer may sacrifice this standard action, and the attack gained from a Standard Action Chink in the Armor Spot Check, to gain a Manyshot attack against the target of that spot check instead. The Archer gains the benefits of Improved Evasion during any round in which he moves more than 20 feet.

Skirmish
At 15th level, the Archer no longer provokes attacks of opportunity due to his movement. The Archer may make "Ranged Charge" attacks, adding his considerable momentum to that of a fired arrow or manyshot. The Archer chooses a target, and moves at least 10 feet towards that target. He sacrifices his regular and skirmish Standard Actions in order to make an attack or Manyshot attack against the target, gaining a +1 Skirmish bonus to his attack and damage rolls, as well as to the numeric effects from his Archer's Tricks or Called Shots. This bonus has a maximum of +5. (For example) The Archer moves 30 feet towards his target, firing 3 arrows with a Manyshoy. 1 normal, 1 carrying 2d4 Precision Damage, and 1 Called Shot to the Heart. Each of those arrows gains +3 to the Attack and Damage rolls. The arrow carrying Precision Damage deals 2d4+3 Precision Damage, and the arrow to the Heart deals 1d6+3 bleed and constitution damage.)

Skirmish:
At 20th level, the Archer takes no penalty to his attack rolls from the use of the Manyshot and Greater Manyshot feats. The Archer gains an Ex Freedom of Movement effect during any movement action he takes, and opponents taking hostile actions that target the Archer suffer a 10% miss chance against him for every 10 feet the Archer has moved during the round, up to a maximum of 30%. Only movement using the Archer's move speeds increases this miss chance. The archer gains a +10 Skirmish bonus to all of his Move Speeds.

The Sniper's path got the least changes - Study Counters from level 1, a few alterations to Sniping and Sniping Attacks, etc. Mostly though, it's retained the core of sitting in one spot for 14 hours and then shooting a hole in someone.


Sniping

At 1st level, the Archer may use a Move Action to Study a Target within [10xClass Levels+WIS bonus] feet, adding 1 Study Counter to that target.The Archer may only study 1 Target at a time. If Study Counters have not been added to a Target within 3 rounds, they are removed from that Target at a rate of 1 per round. A Target may have a number of Study Counters applied to it equal to the Archer's class levels plus his WIS bonus.

A Study Counter grants a stackable +1 Study bonus to the Attack and Damage rolls of the Archer's next attack against the Target. As well, for every Study Counter on his target, the Archer removes 5% of his chance to miss against that target, and his critical threat range increases by 1/2 (round down) on his next attack against that target.

If the target is immune to critical hits, the Archer may spend a full round in study, taking no other actions, to negate this immunity for the Archer's next attack against it. This round of study still adds Study Counters, and the same restrictions for adding Study Counters apply to it.


At 5th Level, the Archer takes only half the penalty due to range on his attack rolls and spot checks. If the Archer successfully attacks a flat-footed foe that is unaware of his location using his Chink in the Armor ability, he may make his first attack of the round into a Sniping Attack. This attack deals double damage (subject to the same restrictions, but not the other benefits of a critical hit, i.e. shocking burst or telling blow), and takes no special penalties if a natural 1 is rolled. If this attack is also a critical hit, do not multiply this extra damage. Instead, add the damage from this ability after calculating the damage from the critical hit. This ability has no effect against creatures that are immune to critical hits. In addition, the penalty for Hiding while sniping is reduced by 10, to a maximum of 0.

Sniping

At 10th Level, each Move Action the Archer uses to Study a Target adds 1 extra Study Counter to that Target, and the Archer adds his Wis bonus (if any) to his Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks. The Archer may use Dex instead of Str for Climb checks. The Archer gains Hide in Plain Sight as an Ex ability, usable only in dim light or less, and may move and hide (using the penalty to hide from Sniping) after an attack, but only if that attack was a Sniping Attack (Normally, the move action required to Hide made after an attack does not allow movement.)

Sniping

At 15th Level, the Archer may distribute up to 3 Study Counters to his Targets with a single Move Action, and may study up to 3 targets at once. The Archer may make a Sniping Attack against a target that is not flat-footed at the time of the attack - though the other restrictions still apply. The bonuses from his Study Counters improve to +2 if the Archer uses the Attack granted by the Standard Action Chink in the Armor Spot Check to make this Sniping Attack. In addition, the penalty for Hiding while sniping is reduced by an additional 10, to a maximum of 0.

Sniping

At 20th level, the Archer's Hide in Plain Sight ability improves - the Archer can become Invisible as an extrodinary ability whenever he hides, as the spell Greater Invisibility. The Archer may distribute up to 5 Study Counters to his Targets with a single Move Action, and can Study up to 5 Targets. The bonuses from Study Counters double. Study Counters now last until the Archer dismisses them, a free action that can be made any time. Additionally, the Archer automatically confirms critical hits for Sniping Attacks.






The Volley Path has been cleaned up, reduced in attacks slightly, and the capstone has been changed to a more fitting ability. It seriously emphasizes standing one's ground and forcing enemies back with a hail of arrows, rather than tactical positioning or mobility.


Volley

At 1st Level, the Archer gains Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the requirements for it. If the Archer already has Rapid Shot, he may choose another feat that he qualifies for, and gain that instead.

Volley

At 5th Level, whenever the Archer makes a Full Attack, he may make an extra attack at his full BAB. Every attack roll the Archer makes this round is subject to a -2 penalty. This ability stacks with Rapid Shot, Haste, and similar effects. When the Archer gains the Improved Rapid Shot feat, the penalty from this extra attack is removed.

Volley

At 10th Level, the Archer now threatens an area of 30 feet with his ranged attacks. He gains Combat Reflexes and Improved Rapid Shot as bonus feats, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisits. If the Archer already have one or both of these feats, he may choose another feat that he qualifies for, for each feat he already has, and gain that instead.

Volley

At 15th Level, the Archer can now make two Full Attacks as a single Full-Round action. If he does so, he becomes fatigued for the rest of the round at the end of his Turn. If the Archer is immune to fatigue and similar effects, he pays 20 points of health after every use of this ability. This health cost cannot be reduced or negated. The Archer cannot use this ability within one round of suffering from the effects of a negative status, such as Shaken, Sickened, or Fatigued.


Volley

At 20th Level, the Archery may make a number of desperation attacks each round, equal to his Dexterity Bonus. A single desperation attack can be made as a free action whenever the Archer makes a ranged attack roll. Each desperation attack costs 5HP, which cannot be reduced or negated, and the Archer takes a -1 penalty to Dexterity for the rest of the encounter for every 10 hp he pays in this way.



Finally, I have separated Precision Effects (Now called Archer's Tricks), and Called Shots.

Archer's Tricks (Ex): At 3th level, the Archer gains access to his pool of Archery Tokens, given in the far right column of Table: Archer. He may pay Archery Tokens to apply Archer's tricks to Ranged Attack Rolls. Paying Tokens is a free action: before a Ranged Attack roll, the Archer announces how many Archery Tokens he will pay to enhance that attack, and which effect(s) he will pay for. Paying Tokens does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and can be done any time the Archer makes a ranged attack roll (including outside of his turn, assuming he still has tokens left to pay with). Some of the Archer's Tricks granted by paying tokens have further requirements, which will be listed with them.

During the Archer's Turn, he may use a Swift Action to fully replenish his Token Pool. He may not pay Archery Tokens to gain Archer's Tricks during any turn which he does this, and may not do this on any turn he has paid Archery Tokens, but may otherwise move, attack, and take other actions as normal.

The Archer may only use effects which he can pay all of the cost(s) for. The Archer may not use these effects against targets with concealment from the Archer unless otherwise noted. The range at which these Archer's Tricks affect targets is equal to [Archer's Class levels+DEX Bonus]x10 feet, unless otherwise noted. The Archer may not apply more than 1 Archer's Trick to any single attack, unless otherwise noted.

Archer's Tricks

Precision Damage

By Paying 1 Archery Token, the Archer may add +1d4 damage to his attack. This damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are immune to this extra damage. The Archer may pay any amount of Archery Tokens for this effect, but the Archer may only pay tokens for Precision damage against targets of successful Chink in the Armor Spot Checks.

Ranged Combat Maneuvers

By spending 3 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may make that attack into a Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, or Ranged Sunder. All of these abilities work exactly as the feats of the same names (from the Complete Warrior), with the following exceptions: The Archer may substitute his Dex for Str when determining the results of the opposed checks, and the range for these maneuvers is the standard range for Archer's Tricks. The Archer may only pay for one of these maneuvers per attack (i.e., he cannot make a single attack a ranged pin and a ranged disarm).

Ranged Trip

By spending 4 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may attempt to trip his target with that attack. If the attack hits and deals damage, make a trip check as normal, except for the following: The Archer may use his Dex instead of his Str for this check, and does not become tripped if the attempt fails. Improved Trip grants only the +4 bonus on this check - the Archer gains no extra attacks from tripping a foe. The Archer may only gain one trip attempt from any single attack with this effect.

Bounce Shot

This Archer's Trick may be used against opponents who have concealment from the Archer. By spending 4 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may 'bounce' that attack off of walls, roofs, floors, or other solid surfaces, in order to circumvent cover or obstacles. The attack bounces off of up to 1 surface and takes a -2 penalty to attack and damage, but is treated as if the Archer has line of effect from the point of the surface from which the attack bounced. If the Archer has no line of sight to his target, he must still attack a square, and roll against a miss chance - this effect simply gives the Archer the ability to circumvent objects and obstacles blocking his ability to attack. The Archer may spend an additional number of Tokens equal to half his Archer Class Levels on this effect; for each additional Archery Token paid, the Archer may bounce the Arrow off an additional surface at a cumulative -2 penalty to attack and damage.

Forceful Shot

By spending 6 Archery Tokens on a ranged attack, the Archer can that attack a Forceful Shot. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must make a Strength check, DC10+1/2 Damage Dealt, or be pushed back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet per 5 points the check is failed by. This Strength check gains any bonuses or penalties the target has to resist a bull rush.




Called Shots (Ex): At 4th Level, the Archer gains the ability to make Called Shots. By spending various Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may hinder his target in various ways. Unless otherwise noted, a called shot takes a -4 penalty to attack. Apply the appropriate effect if the attack hits and deals damage.

A Fortitude save DC 10+1/2 Damage Dealt negates the effects of a called shot. Damage that isn't multiplied on a critical is not counted toward this DC. The effects from a called shot last until either magical healing is received, or a Heal Check that beats the Called Shot's Save DC is performed on the target, although HP damage and ability damage must be healed naturally. The Archer may only apply one of these effects to any single attack, and may not combine Called Shots with Archer's Tricks.

Costs:

By spending 1 Archery Token on an attack, the Archer may aim that attack at an Arm or Leg of his target.

By spending 3 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may aim that attack at a Foot or Hand of his target.

By spending 5 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may aim that attack at a Throat of his target, or may ignore up 50% miss chance against a target.

By spending 7 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may aim that attack at a Knee or Lung of his target.

By spending 9 Archery Tokens on an attack, the Archer may aim that attack at a Head or Heart of his target.

By spending 11 Archery Tokens on an Attack, the Archer may aim that attack at an Eye or Ability Score of his target.

Effects:
Ability Score - This attack deals 2d4+1 damage to a target's ability score of the Archer's choice. This effect is not applied to creatures immune to critical hits.

Arm - This attack causes a 1d3+1 penalty to the target's attack, damage, skill, and ability checks made with the arm. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible arms.

Eye - This attack destroys one of the target's eyes - this effect cannot be healed normally. The attack is made at a -8 penalty, instead of the standard -4. The target is also dazed for one round. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible eyes.

Foot - The target takes a -10 penalty to its land speed, to a minimum of 5. This penalty can only be applied once per foot (until healing is received), and can only be made against creatures with discernible feet.

Hand - The target cannot hold objects, make attacks or gestures, or make skill checks with that hand. This effect can only be applied once per hand (until healed). This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible hands.

Head - The target is stunned for 1 round, dazed for 1 round, and then sickened until the damage from this attack is healed. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible heads.

Heart - This effect only applies if the attack deals at least 10 points of damage to the target. The target takes 1d6 bleed damage, and 1d6 points of constitution damage. Using an action to do anything other than move causes another 1 constitution damage. In addition to the normal duration, this effect lasts until the arrow is removed (one full-round action that triggers the constitution damage). This attack can only be made against creatures not immune to critical hits.

Knee/Wing/Flipper - The target can only move over land/air/water as a full-round action, and its appropriate movement speed is halved. If all of a target's knees/wings/flippers have been affected by this ability, that target can no longer use its appropriate speed to move. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible knees, wings, or flippers.

Leg - The target takes a 1d3+1 penalty to the target's attack, damage, skill, and ability checks made with the leg, as well as a -5 penalty to its land speed, to a minimum of 5. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible legs.

Lung - This effect is only applied if the target takes at least 10 points of damage from the attack. The target becomes fatigued. If at least half of the target's lungs have been affected, the target becomes exhausted, instead. If all of the target's lungs have been affected, it immediately begins making saves against suffocation. This attack can only be made against creatures with lungs, that need to breathe, and that are not immune to critical hits.

Throat - The target is unable to create more than a guttering gurgle from the mouth the attacked throat is attached to. This may cause it to be unable to perform the verbal components some spells require. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible throats.

Incoming progress table - some dead levels, I took bonus feats out for now in order to look at how I'm going to progress them.
Table: Archer
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special |
Archery Tokens

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0| Precise Shot, Archer's Path |
0

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0| Chink in the Armor (Standard) |
1

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1| Archer's Tricks, Arrow Theory|
3

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1| Called Shots, Vital Aim |
4

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1| Improved Archer's Path |
5

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2| Arrow Theory, Bonus Feat |
7

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2| Chink In the Armor (Move) |
8

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2| Practiced Draw |
9

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3| Arrow Theory, Exhibitionist|
11

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3| Greater Archer's Path|
12

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3| Bonus Feat, Expert Aim|
13

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4| Arrow Theory, Chink in the Armor (Swift)|
15

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4| Improved Precise Shot |
16

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4| Renowned Exhibitionist |
17

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|Arrow Theory, Paragon Archer's Path |
19

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5| Bonus Feat |
20

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5 | Chink in the Armor (Free)|
21

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6| Arrow Theory |
23

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6| Legendary Exhibitionist |
24

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6| Armor Piercing, Peerless Archer |
25[/table]

Practiced Draw (Ex): The Archer may now wield a ranged weapon one size smaller or larger than normal at no size penalty. This ability does not stack with similar abilities, such as Powerful Build.


Working on Mounted Path. It's tricky :I

Wyntonian
2011-07-09, 08:16 PM
Hey, I'm designing a lowish-magic world, and I'd like to make this a "sponsored" homebrew class, and make it available to players. Are you ok with that?

chrisrawr
2011-07-10, 11:30 AM
Hey, I'm designing a lowish-magic world, and I'd like to make this a "sponsored" homebrew class, and make it available to players. Are you ok with that?

Am I ever! You might want to raise the archery/gold costs of some of the abilities and arrows, however, as some are meant to compete with weak spells at later levels. Namely, blindness/deafness arrows can be fun in the hands of a volley archer.

DracoDei
2011-07-10, 12:44 PM
Have you looked at the Archery Resource Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=152550&pp=40)?

Sidenote (and I really need to say this more), I fully support writing up one's own ideas before checking out "prior art" so your ideas are fresh and new, without being shackled to the past. But AFTER that, one should check out what has gone before, so as to hone what you have.

chrisrawr
2011-07-10, 02:38 PM
I pulled heavily from the Sniper listed there after Lyndworm suggested it; this archive is wonderful and I'll probably find something to improve on :V Many thanks your way.

Your sniper feat on page 1 is awesome :V Could come in all sorts of handy. I'm thinking of compiling a list of Path feats once I finish the Mounted Path, and get the OP formatted and updated properly. Such a pain~

Improved Close Combat Fighting is... wow. Just thinking of how to fluff it, you'd need to be able to see into the future D: Especially since I'm a fan of having a range increment of over 200, as a rule. Perhaps I'll work it into the path feats, somehow.

I might take a page from Lix Lorn's book; instead of ranged touch attacks, I'll let the Archer negate AC equal to his class level - perhaps his class level + his Wis Mod later on. Armor Piercing will still simply negate the need for a check.

The Demented One's "Nock the Sword" ability is... pure awesome. I need to work it in, somehow, somewhere. To heck with the guy who can throw 16 Katanas a turn, I'll grab the feat that gets me proficiency with improvised werapons, use a dwarf dual-wielding crossbows loaded with petals dual-wielding crossbows, as an improvised weapon, and fire that. With Splitting. Someone should make a picture of that.

On that note, I might pick up a bit of "Strike True" with the Damage reduction reduction. Perhaps by boosting the Chink in the Armor check time one notch - ignoring DR from Armor, shields, and armor and shield enhancements only, where a Standard action would become full-round, etc. I'll need a bit of wording changes to some of the sniper's path abilities, but I suppose it could help?

Maybe I'll add an ability that stacks enhancement effects; I personally think they're fine as is, though I might let the archer alter arrows so that they don't need a +1 enhancement to be enhanced further - saving you a huge chunk on your frost/flaming burst arrows (from +1,000 each to 640, delicious).

On a design note: Should I consolidate the abilities into spoilered blurbs? i.e. have all the Archer's Path abilities under a spoiler at level 1, all of the Chink in the Armor upgrades under a spoiler at level 2, etc.?

Ranged Weapon Aptitude will be added, as it is needed. Thinking of giving the option of a 'Disciplined' path; might just focus on that, instead of mounted path. There's too much wrong with the entire mount system as is for me to be adding to it. I'll give it another couple days.

Might brew up a variation of the Cragtop Archer that progresses a few things, and gains entry at 10th level. This would be as an alternate for 'extreme range' attacks - people want Arcing Shot and 15 range increments. I don't feel that it's for this class, as there's a 4 level (lastlevelissouselessohgod.) PrC that does it, and does it well.



As a side note, I really want to gestalt Kellus' Sagittarius with his Truenamer. Delicious hueg bonus to truespeaking. I am a bad person, and that is all.

DracoDei
2011-07-10, 03:05 PM
You are welcome.

jojolagger
2011-07-28, 03:20 AM
Level 20 sniper, with 20 Wis, has been studying someone for about 30 seconds. Said sniper now get's +50 to attacks/Damage agaisnt them, a threat range of about -6 to 20, and ignore the first 250% miss chance against them. Unless they attack using the standard action chink in the Armor, in which case it's +100 to attack/damage. And the tokens only ever go away if he want's them to. The bonuses even apply to melee attacks. Oh, and you auto-confirm crits, so it's more like +100 attack +200 damage. :smallannoyed:
And that's without archer's tricks. Throw in forceful shot to throw the enemy back 60 feet (assuming enemy is pulling +25 STR at level 20).

Vs. the tarrasque, a sniper can drop it in 6 rounds. And can throw it back about 70 feet with a single arrow.
A solar or pit fiend dies after a snipers first shot.
A sniper can drop a great wyrm gold dragon, the highest CR creature in the monster manual, in 2 shots..

Lyesmith
2011-07-28, 03:44 AM
Level 20 sniper, with 20 Wis, has been studying someone for about 30 seconds. Said sniper now get's +50 to attacks/Damage agaisnt them, a threat range of about -6 to 20, and ignore the first 250% miss chance against them. Unless they attack using the standard action chink in the Armor, in which case it's +100 to attack/damage. And the tokens only ever go away if he want's them to. The bonuses even apply to melee attacks. Oh, and you auto-confirm crits, so it's more like +100 attack +200 damage. :smallannoyed:
And that's without archer's tricks. Throw in forceful shot to throw the enemy back 60 feet (assuming enemy is pulling +25 STR at level 20).

Vs. the tarrasque, a sniper can drop it in 6 rounds. And can throw it back about 70 feet with a single arrow.
A solar or pit fiend dies after a snipers first shot.
A sniper can drop a great wyrm gold dragon, the highest CR creature in the monster manual, in 2 shots..

Boom. Headshot.

jojolagger
2011-07-28, 10:27 AM
Boom. Headshot.

You can do said damage with a foot shot.

ILM
2011-07-28, 10:32 AM
I've got three comments about the class:
1. Greater Skirmisher: granting extra standard actions is a bad thing. The one thing that's sure to break the game (or give a player the power to do so) is breaking the action economy. Even WotC had to admit this when they nerfed Haste. Granted, you'd need 10 levels of Archer to get this so it's not going on a full caster chassis, but you're still asking for trouble. Why don't you rephrase it to something more specific?

2. A level 20 archer pretty much auto-hits anything he wants to (ranged touch, full BAB, take 10 on the roll: nothing has that kind of touch AC)... unless they're a level 5 caster, in which case they have Wind Wall and the Archer is rendered completely useless. You need a way to deal with that.

3. I also think you need to cap the Sniper's Study Counters earlier. Maybe 1/2 class levels + Wis? Or cap the number of rounds you can observe a target for (say, three).

Knaight
2011-07-28, 01:55 PM
A solar or pit fiend dies after a snipers first shot.
A sniper can drop a great wyrm gold dragon, the highest CR creature in the monster manual, in 2 shots..
Both the solar and pit fiend have methods to not get shot that aren't AC or miss chance. Still, a limit to time spent studying a target (say, 2 rounds) would probably be helpful.

chrisrawr
2012-01-31, 02:47 PM
Casting Revive! I've been away a long time, and in that time I learned a lot about homebrew and creation in general. Since this project was one I enjoyed immensely, I'm going to be working some magic on it over the next few weeks during breaks and lunch at work. Here's what I've got so far! Replace all instances of SPECIAL with STUFF I'M WORKING ON, and all rules not mentioned yet are also STUFF I'M WORKING ON

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Archers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Dexterity provides accuracy and damage, but only if you have enough strength to wield a powerful bow. Wisdom is important, as Spot plays an important role. Intelligence may serve you well as a scout or skill-monkey.
Alignment: Archers are best suited towards the Neutral alignments, favoring patience, and acting on a big-picture agenda.
Hit Die: d6
Starting Age: As Fighter
Starting Gold: As Fighter


Table: Archer
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special |
Archery Tokens

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0| Precise Shot, Archer's Path |
5

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Arrow Theory|
10

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1| Path Advancement |
15

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1| Vital Aim |
20

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1| Path Advancement |
25

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2| Arrow Theory, Called Shots |
30

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2| Path Advancement |
35

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Faster Shots, Practiced Draw|
40

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3| Path Advancement |
45

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Arrow Theory, Exhibitionist|
50

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Path Advancement|
55

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4| Expert Aim |
60

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4| Path Advancement |
65

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4| Arrow Theory, Renowned Exhibitionist |
70

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5| Path Advancement |
75

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat, Faster Shots|
80

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5 | Arrow Theory, SPECIAL? |
85

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6| Path Advancement |
90

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6| Legendary Exhibitionist, SPECIAL? |
95

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6| Path Advancement, SPECIAL?|
100[/table]


Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.

Class Skills: The Archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate, Listen (Wis), Knowledge: Nature (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

Unless noted, all abilities are (Ex) effects, and all attack modifiers only affect ranged attacks.
Proficiencies: The Archer gains proficiency with Simple weapons and Ranged Martial Weapons, Light and Medium armor, and Bucklers. The Archer gains proficiency with a Ranged Exotic Weapon of his choice, as long as that weapon can be purchased with gold available at character creation. As well, Archer levels count as, and stack with, Fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for Fighter Bonus Feats that affect ranged weapons. (For example, a Fighter 2 / Archer 2 would count as Fighter 4 for taking Fighter Feats)

Archery Tokens: The column on the right gives a character's Archery Tokens. Archery Tokens are used for a number of the Archers' special abilities. An Archer gains a pool of Archery Tokens which fills at the beginning of each of the Archer's turns, and which may not be filled beyond maximum.

Level 1: Precise Shot and the Archer's Path
At first level, the Archer gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't qualify for it. The Archer also picks which path to follow, from the following: Skirmishers Path, Sniper's Path, Volley-man’s Path. Only Archer levels count towards the progression of these abilities. The benefits of each path are described below -

Skirmishers Path:
Upon taking the Skirmishers Path, the Skirmisher gains a 10 foot Skirmish Bonus to all of his movement speeds. He may take his Standard action at any point during a Move Action used to move. Only normal movement (using one of the Skirmishers' movement speeds) counts toward satisfying any conditions involving movement from the Skirmishers abilities. (i.e. being teleported does not count toward any of the Skirmishers' abilities).

At 3rd level, attacks and hostile effects that target the Skirmisher specifically will miss the him 10% + Archer Levels% + INT% of the time during any round the Skirmisher has moved.

At 5th level, the Skirmisher may negate a number of attacks of opportunity from his movement each turn equal to his INT modifier. A negated attack of opportunity does not count toward a character's limit. The Skirmisher gains a 10 foot Skirmish Bonus to all of his movement speeds.

At 7th level, the Skirmisher gains the Multishot and Greater Multishot feats.

At 9th Level, the Skirmisher gains an extra Standard Action during any turn he moves. He gains a 10 foot Skirmish Bonus to all of his movement speeds.

At 11th level, the Skirmishers flight skill increases by 1 step if he can fly. He gains the ability to walk on walls at half his land speed, if he did not already have it. He is unhindered by difficult terrain.

At 13th level, the Skirmisher gains SR 15+Archer Levels against spells that limit or impede movement, but only during turns he's already moved.He gains a 10 foot Skirmish Bonus to all of his movement speeds.

At 15th Level, the Skirmisher gains another extra Standard Action during any turn he uses a Standard Action to move.

At 18th Level, the Skirmisher gains (Ex) Freedom of Movement during any round he's moved. His movement speeds gain a 10 foot Skirmish bonus.

At 20th Level, the Skirmisher gains that extra Standard Action during any turn he moves. The Skirmisher may sacrifice any 2 Standard or Move actions for a Full-Round action. (Allowing up to 2 Full-Round actions each turn!) He may fire ranged attacks through up to 10+INT feet of intervening matter or spell-work (including force effects) unhindered (his arrow essentially phases up to 10+INT feet.) The Skirmisher must still roll miss chance if he doesn't have sight to his target, and still takes any applicable penalties for concealment or total concealment.




The Sniper's Path:
The Sniper may use a Move Action to Study a Target within 50+Search feet. This Distance increases to 75+Search feet at level 5, 100+Search feet at level 10, 125+Search feet at level 15, and 150+Search feet at level 20.

Studying a target adds WIS Study Counters to that target at level 1, WIS+1 at level 5, WIS+2 at level 10, WIS+3 at level 15, and WIS+4 at level 20.

The Archer may only study 1 Target at a time at level 1, 2 at level 5, 3 at level 10, 4 at level 15, and 4+.5WIS at level 20. If Study Counters have not been added to a Target within 3 rounds, they are all removed from that Target.

A Target may have a number of Study Counters applied to it equal to the Archer's class levels plus his WIS bonus. Study Counters may only be spent when the Target is unaware of the Sniper, and only on attacks being made – you can't spend study counters on an attack that will be made next round, for instance.

At 3rd level, The Sniper may spend a Study Counters to apply a +1 Study bonus to the Attack or Damage roll of his next attack against the Target. If the Sniper successfully attacks a flat-footed foe that is unaware of his location, his first attack of the round becomes a Sniping Attack. Sniping Attacks deal additional damage equal to the Sniper's Archer Levels + Wis Bonus. If this attack is also a critical hit, do not multiply this extra damage. This damage is ignored by Targets immune to critical hits.

At 5th level, the Sniper reduces the penalty due to range on his attack rolls and spot checks by his Archer Levels + WIS. The Sniper's penalty to Hiding while sniping is reduced by 10, to a maximum of 0. The Sniper may spend Study Counters to Remove 5% of his chance to miss on his next attack against the Target.

At 7th Level, the Sniper adds WIS to his climb, hide, and move silently checks, and may use Dex instead of Str for climb checks. The Sniper may spend Study Counters to lower the Archery Token Cost of his next attack against that Target by 1.

At 9th level, If the Target is immune to critical hits or precision damage, the Archer may spend a full round in study, taking no other actions, to negate this immunity for the Archer's next attack against it. This round of study still adds Study Counters, and the same restrictions for adding Study Counters apply to it. The Sniper may spend Study Counters to increase his Critical Threat range by 1/2 (round down) on his next attack against the Target.

At 11th Level, the Sniper gains Hide in Plain Sight as an Ex ability, usable only in dim light or less, and may move and hide (using the penalty to hide from Sniping) after an attack, but only if that attack was a Sniping Attack (Normally, the move action required to Hide made after an attack does not allow movement – this essentially allows a Sniper to strafe-run targets from the shadows.) The Sniper may spend study counters against a target that is aware of the Sniper, but not his location.

At 13th Level, the Sniper may make a Sniping Attack against a target that is not flat-footed at the time of the attack - though the other restrictions still apply. The Attack and Damage bonuses from his Study Counters improve to +2 per Study Counter for Sniping Attacks.

At 15th level, the Sniper may Hide in Plain Sight in all conditions, though he takes a -10 penalty in open, brightly lit areas. The Sniper's penalty to Hide while sniping is reduced to 0, before any other modifications. The Sniper may move at full speed with no penalty to hide or move silently.

At 18th level, Study Counters now last until the Archer dismisses them, a free action that can be made any time. Additionally, the Archer automatically confirms critical hits for Sniping Attacks. Study Counters can be spent on any target at any time.

At 20th level, the Sniper's Hide in Plain Sight ability improves - the Archer becomes Invisible as an extraordinary ability whenever he hides, as the spell Invisibility. The Sniper may take 10 for his attack roll when attacking from such an invisible state.

Lyndworm
2012-02-01, 02:30 AM
Wow! This is looking really good, man. I can't wait to check in once you've got the STUFF a little more fleshed out.

chrisrawr
2012-02-01, 03:57 AM
Oh, sure, way to make my day, man. What an upper. Punk.

Volleyman's Path:
The Volleyman's path is perhaps the most reliant on Archery Tokens, and gains his Archer Level as a bonus to his Archery Token pool. Taking the Volleyman's Path grants the Bonus Feat, Rapid Shot.

From 1st level onward, a Volleyman may spend a full pool of Archery Tokens to make an extra ranged attack at Full BAB as a free action during your turn. This ranged attack must be made against an enemy you've already attacked this turn, and uses the same weapon as that attack.

At 3rd level, the Volleyman may re-roll missed ranged attacks for 10 Archery Tokens.This ability may only be used once per attack, and the only the re-rolled attack counts towards effects that take hits or misses into account (such as Woodland Archer).

At 5th Level, whenever the Archer makes a ranged Full Attack, he may make an extra ranged attack at his full BAB. Every ranged attack roll the Archer makes this round is subject to a -2 penalty. This ability stacks with Rapid Shot, Haste, and similar effects.

At 7th level, each Ranged Attack that hits a target refills the Volleyman's Archery Token pool by 5. This may not take the pool over its maximum.

At 9th level, the Volleyman threatens an area of 30 feet with ranged weapons. He gains Combat reflexes as a bonus feat.

At 11th level, the Archer gains Improved Rapidshot. The Volleyman may now make 2 additional ranged attacks at his full BAB, instead of 1, in exchange for a full Archery Token pool.

At 13th level, any damage done by the Volleyman's ranged attacks also replenishes his Archery Token pool for that amount.

At 15th level, the Volleyman may make two Full Attacks as a single Full-Round action. If he does so, he becomes fatigued for the rest of the round at the end of his Turn. If the Archer is immune to fatigue and similar effects, he pays 20% of his maximum HP after every use of this ability. This health cost cannot be reduced or negated. The Archer cannot use this ability within one round of suffering from the effects of a negative status, such as Shaken, Sickened, Level-Drained, turned to stone, Fatigued, etc.

At 18th level, any ranged weapon the Volleyman wields gains the benefit of the Splitting enchantment.

At 20th level, a Volleyman may make a number of desperation ranged attacks each round, equal to his Dexterity Bonus. A desperation ranged attack is a ranged attack with the Volleyman's currently wielded ranged weapon made at full BAB. A single desperation ranged attack can be made as a free action, as a part of any non-desperation ranged attack roll. Each desperation attack costs 5HP, which cannot be reduced or negated, and the Archer takes a -1 penalty to Dexterity for the rest of the encounter for every 10HP he pays in this way.


STUFF incoming

Arrow Theory: At levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 17, the Archer gains the ability to craft one of the following specialty arrows. Anyone without an Archer level takes a -4 penalty to Attacks made with these arrows. An Archer may combine 2 arrows known to him by passing Craft and Knowledge: Engineering checks, each with DC equal to the Craft DC of the Higher plus half that of the lower. The cost and time is double the highest.

Table: Crafting
{table=head]Name|Cost|Crafting DC|Time:|Effect
5xIncendiary Arrow|2GP|15|3 Hours| Adds 1 point of Fire Damage to the attack and ignites the target.
5xBurrowing Arrow|2GP|15|3 Hours| Counts as Bludgeoning/Piercing, will imbed into stone or wooden surfaces, holds up to 200lb. Bypasses the hardness of objects and constructs.
5xFar-Shot Arrow|3GP|15|3 Hours| Increases the Firer's range increment by 20 feet, firer may shoot up to 2 extra range increments.
5xSwift Arrow|3GP|15|3 Hours| Firer ignores penalties for first 2 range increments.
5xSwimming Arrow|5GP|20|5 Hours|Firer ignores penalties for underwater ranged attacks.
5xShattering Arrow|7gp|20|5 Hours|Deals 1d4 slashing damage in a 5-foot burst centered on the opponent hit.
5xPoisonVial Arrow|10GP|20|5 Hours|+2 to the DC of any poisons applied by it.
5xFlashbang Arrow|15GP|25|7 Hours| causes 1d4 rounds of blindness and deafness in a 10-foot burst when it strikes an opponent. Fortitude save DC equal to 5+1/2 the Craft Check used to create the arrow. Opponents are dazzled for 1 round on a successful save. Resolve misses as if it were a thrown splash weapon.
5xFog Arrow|20GP|25|7 Hours|Target is affected as if by the Fog spell, except the 20x20 burst is (Ex). By voluntarily increasing the craft DC by 10, the Archer my add poisons to this Fog. If he does so, creatures in the Fog's area take 1d4 acid damage per round, and become Nauseated (Save DC 5+1/2 the Craft Check used to create the arrow) Resolve misses as if it were a thrown splash weapon.
5xDraining Arrow|30GP|30|8 Hours|Causes 1 point of bleed damage. This damage stacks with itself. This bleed damage is removed if the target receives a heal check DC15, or is magically healed for at least 1 point of damage.
5xExploding Arrow|30GP|30|8 Hours|Explodes upon hitting a target, dealing 1d6 points of force damage and 1d6 points of fire damage in a 10 foot burst. Resolve misses as if it were a thrown splash weapon.
[/table]

Vital Aim: At 4th Level, once per ranged attack, the Archer may spend an Archery Token to add his DEX to that ranged attack's damage. This damage is treated the same way as damage from a high STR mod is treated.

Called Shots: Beginning at level 6, the Archer may spend Archery Tokens and a Full-Round action to make a Ranged attack that applies a special effect. At level 8, the Called Shot may be made as a Standard Action. At level 16, you may spend Archery Tokens to apply the effects to any ranged attack made.

Each effect may only be applied once to each body part. Some effects will not work against targets immune to critical hits - these will be specified.

The effects of a called shot are negated if any magical healing is received, or if a DC8+Archer Level Heal check succeeds on the Target. Each of these effects has a Fortitude or Reflex save (choose the highest) equal to the Attack Roll or the Damage (choose the highest) to negate.

For 11 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot to an arm or leg of the Target. If the attack hits, it causes a 1d3+1 penalty to the target's attack, damage, skill, and ability checks made with that arm or leg. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible arms or legs, and its effects apply only once per arm or leg affected. Its effects stack if multiple limbs are being used to perform the same action (wielding a 2-handed weapon, climbing, etc.)

For 26 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot to a hand or foot of a target. If Foot, the target takes a -10 penalty to its land speed, to a minimum of 5. This penalty can only be applied once per foot (until healing is received), and can only be made against creatures with discernible feet.

Against the Hand, the target cannot hold objects, make attacks or gestures, or make skill checks with that hand. This effect can only be applied once per hand (until healed). This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible hands.

For 41 Archery Tokens, the Archery may call his shot against the Throat of a Target, or ignore concealment for that attack. Against the Throat, the target is unable to create more than a guttering gurgle from the mouth the attacked throat is attached to. This may cause it to be unable to perform the verbal components some spells require. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible throats, and its effects apply only once per throat (until healing is received).

For 56 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot to the Knee or Lung of a Target. Against the Knee (which includes wing-joint, flipper, etc.), the target can only move over land/air/water as a full-round action, and its appropriate movement speed is halved. If all of a target's knees have been affected by this ability, that target can no longer use its corresponding speed to move. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible knees and its effects apply only once per Knee (until healing is received).

Against the Lung, if the Target loses at least 10% of his max health from the attack, the target becomes fatigued. If at least half of the target's lungs have been affected (usually 2, but DM's call), the target becomes exhausted, instead. If all of the target's lungs have been affected, it immediately begins making saves against suffocation as if its CON was 0. This attack can only be made against creatures with lungs, that need to breathe, and that are not immune to critical hits, and its effects apply only once per Lung (until healing is received).

For 71 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot to a Head or Heart of the target. Against the Head, the target is sickened until healing has been received, stunned for 1 round, and dazed for 1 round after that. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible heads, and its effects may only be applied once per head (until healed).

Against the Heart, Roll an appropriate knowledge check for the Target, DC=CR. The effects of this called shot may only be applied if this check is passed. If the Target loses at least 10% of his max health from the attack, he takes 1D6 CON damage, and 1D6 Bleeding. Unlike a normal called shot, the effects last until the arrow is removed, and the CON damage must be healed normally or by magic. If an affected target has multiple hearts, each heart after the first reduces both damages by 1, to a minimum of 1. This attack can only be made against creatures with hearts, that are not immune to critical hits, and its effects may only be applied once per heart (until healed). If CON is reduced to 0 or below, the Target immediately dies.

For 86 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot to an Eye of his target, or double the critical range of his next attack. Against the eye, his attack destroys one of the target's eyes. Unlike a normal called shot, this effect must be healed by either Regeneration or Magic. This attack can only be made against creatures with discernible eyes, and its effects applied only once per eye. If the target would make a save against massive damage, the DC is increased by 5.

For 91 Archery Tokens, the Archer may call his shot directly against an ability score of his target. The attack is representative of the Archer seriously hampering his target, and you might represent it with dismemberment a series of well-placed arrows to a specific region. To apply the effects of this called shot, the Archer must pass a Knowledge check with DC = 5+Target's CR. If this check is failed, the attack does nothing - not even damage. Additionally, the target must lose at least 10% of his max health from the attack for the effects to apply. If these conditions are met, the target takes 2d6+1 points of damage to the ability score of your choice. This damage is permanent and can only be healed at an unalterable rate of 1 point per 8 hours of rest. This attack's effects may be applied once to each of a Target's ability scores (until healed).

For 100 Archery Tokens, the Archer's next attack will kill the target. The target must lose at least 20% of his maximum health from the attack, Massive Damage must be triggered, and the Archer must succeed on a Knowledge check with DC = 5+Target's CR.

Rapidghoul
2012-02-01, 01:05 PM
I really like this. It's nice to see some ranged-fighter love.

Some of it... is exceptionally complicated. Skirmisher's % miss chance is kind of INSANE to use every attack. A simple bonus to AC like the Scout's Skirmish would be a lot simpler and easier to understand (+1 AC = 5% miss chance), or maybe just give them general Concealment. Simplicity is always appealing.

Is there a reason the class gets actions as they move rather than attack actions? Giving them bonus standard actions / full-round actions can apply to a lot of unrelated stuff like casting spells, but if you made it specifically bonus attacks you'd accomplish the same thing for moving attackers.

Overall, I like this a lot. There's a LOT to go over, but good by what I can tell.

chrisrawr
2012-02-01, 05:51 PM
:D thanks for the feedback. With the skirmisher. I figured the level sink would be thw biggest detriment to caster abuse. Might be a gestalt issue, but really, gestalt casters are already broken beyond the pale, so an extra salvo in a game of rocket tag isn't going to be noticed much. I agree the miss chance might get tedious. Ill change it to an intbased ac bonus.The main reason for bonus standard actions is they can be used to manyshot, or run, or set traps, or do any number of speedy things. Action economy is the easiest way to level the caster/martial field.

chrisrawr
2012-06-18, 10:07 PM
Reopened for PEACH and suggestions.

chrisrawr
2012-10-24, 11:00 AM
Re-open for feedback, I'll be updating this incrementally and a re-do might be in order.

Chaos_Laicosin
2012-10-25, 02:00 AM
Ok... A little drunk, so I might not remember everything a read 10 minutes ago...

Anyway, this seems to be vary similar to an arching class I wanted to make a little while ago (I was going to go Box/xbow/handxbow, similar to volley/snipe/skirmish) and it seems to work out pretty well.

However, I was thinking that a sniping path would be more for strategic reasons, such as extra spot distance (3x maybe?) so that they could set up the field and dictate assault against multiple opponents. And automatic crit hits with extended target study.

I WAS going to have my h-xbow path using a specialized h-xbow (though in retrospect it might no make sense to have it class-limited) that would have 2 triggers, one to shoot and one to re-load. Effectively allowing one to dual wield ranged weapons (to 30 ft.) without having to use 2 hands to reload. Though I was going to have it as one size lower in damage. This might make moot your skirmisher's extra action when using a FRA for movement, though.

Also, hi-5 on the arrow crafting. Way more option than I could think up.


Just some thoughts and comments. I might make a separate class using some of your ideas.

chrisrawr
2012-10-25, 09:47 AM
Thanks :D I actually really want to steal a lot from some of the more recent archer classes that've popped up (MoL's is beautiful!), so definitely look out for changes you'll like.

I especially want to continue cutting away at the base issue for snipers, which is yeah - spot, and feeling like you've significantly damaged something when you've spent time studying it, without making it into a "I wait 10 turns and then shoot"-action route.

I'm also working on updating this entirely to pathfinder, as that's what's being used in more of my gaming IRL; continuing to remove the "dip" viability is another important aspect... womp womm

chrisrawr
2013-03-27, 01:40 AM
Reopening. Some of the abilities feel forced or out of place at certain levels, but I'm feeling brainfarty. Open to suggestions, but want to retain lack of needing to hit, and poor BAB if lack-of-need-to-hit is negated for whatever reason.

Salbazier
2013-06-12, 09:40 PM
Awww, I like the old one. Why the drastic change? No sniper path anymore and study counters anymore? The old class was probably the only archery class that support 'slow-rate, carefully calculated shooting' style which befit a sniper more than the normal 'rain of arrows' style

LordErebus12
2013-06-12, 10:42 PM
I made an archer for my campaign setting a while back, figured you could peak through it for ideas.

Hammerhold archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278594).

chrisrawr
2013-06-15, 07:23 PM
Awww, I like the old one. Why the drastic change? No sniper path anymore and study counters anymore? The old class was probably the only archery class that support 'slow-rate, carefully calculated shooting' style which befit a sniper more than the normal 'rain of arrows' style

Mostly because I lost all my notes on it, and Circle of Life's Archer class is about a hundred times better :P

This is now something I've abandoned; it didn't pan out.