Why doesn't Roy

[Aasimar]

take some levels in Spellsword or some spell-casting fighting class that would allow him to take advantage of his high int?

I know, I know, the whole argument with his father about magic. But really, a spellsword or another such prestige class is really just about using magic to become better at hitting things with a big piece of metal.

Or at the very least some kind of prestige class, kensai, tempest, cavalier, dervish, whatever.

At this point in his career, anything at all (with a good base attack) is better than a straight up fighter.

[Kish]

take some levels in Spellsword or some spell-casting fighting class that would allow him to take advantage of his high int?

Because his family has a rich heritage as warriors.

Because he's proud of being a single-classed fighter like his grandfather.

Because...


I know, I know,
...of reasons which you appear to want to wave away as meaningless roleplaying gludge that shouldn't get in the way of optimization.

[Yana]

I think that at this point, it's a matter of his pride. Just as Eugene was always spouting off about the superiority of wizards, Roy has his heart set on his current class make up, as did his grandfather before him.

Fighters are obviously not the most useful or overpowered class in the OotS universe, but this class is the path Roy has chosen, and he likely won't deviate from it without a really good reason.

Edit: Swordsaged by Kish in a more eloquent fashion.

[Aasimar]

Well, yeah.

But who's to say that a fighter/cavalier isn't following in the footsteps as much as a fighter. It's a martial heritage, not necessarily a fighter-only heritage.

Well, this being a world where class-levels and class names are known to everyone and an obvious feature, I can see how this might happen.

But I'm not talking about some ubermunchkined Fighter/barbarian/kensai/dervish/battlerager/hackmaster combo.

Just trying to address the question in the latest comic, Roy is smart, how can he use his smartness to better address his problems and attain his goals?

[Aasimar]

basically, just saying that it annoys me that a guy like roy can be taken apart by an idiot like Thog, not because he refuses to ubermunchkinize, but just because he refuses to even be a little bit smart about his choices.

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not sure why this annoys you. People make choices based on such things all the time. One's relationship with one's father is an incredible motivator for good or for ill. People aren't computers who always make the most logical choices, they have emotions. This is what makes Roy a well-rounded character. He is a fighter because his grandfather was a fighter. Its that simple.

Also, there is an edit button, you know. No need to bump your thread.

[Gnome Alone]

It seems like the villains of the comic are practically the only ones that use non-core material anyway. (Elan's got that prestige class though.) Haley gets upset when Tsukiko uses Electric Orb ("Hey, that's not a core spell!") and Redcloak digs up weird undead and psionics. There's probably more examples, but I think in general the implication is that only the evil characters will use slippery munchkin tricks and such.

So, besides the reasons already beautifully elucidated, I don't think that such classes are actually supposed to be available to Roy.

I mean, if he was a Warblade and not a Fighter, that'd be a bit esoteric and specific considering the comic is written for a general audience, at least in that one is not supposed to need to know a bunch of stuff about D&D to read it.

[Aasimar]

{{scrubbed}}

(just so we're clear, I wasn't 'bumping', that'd be really pathetic)

I'm actually a big fan of core-only play. Back when I played d&d 3.5, that was how most of our games were. I just mention a bunch of options because you need to stray a bit from core to find real options for fighters to get real practical uses from their int.

[Kish]

I'm actually a big fan of core-only play. Back when I played d&d 3.5, that was how most of our games were. I just mention a bunch of options because you need to stray a bit from core to find real options for fighters to get real practical uses from their int.
So...you're a big fan of Roy not being able to do what you think he should do? :smallconfused:

[Aasimar]

I think he should pick some prestige class at least.

It's been a huge while since I played d&d 3rd, I've never considered stuff like spellsword very far off-core, but I never played that sort of character so it didn't come up much.

And yes, he's put himself in the situation where his choice of 'career' for lack of a better word, makes him less and less able to compete on the level that he needs to in order to attain his goals. In order to start catching up, he needs to do something.

Be it a fighter-type prestige class, core multiclassing of some sort or even psionics. (which I've always found annoying, but hey, that's what the situation is)

At any rate, I wanted to discuss the pros and cons of it and what his possibilities were, if there were less outrageous choices than arcane magic. Dismissing it on just 'how stupid I am for even raising the question and what a munchkin I must therefore be' is just plain annoying.

[Kish]

1) Eugene, and 2) people on this forum, have proposed that Roy is unable to accomplish his goals because he's a fighter.

The comic has never borne them out. Roy's clash with Thog is not the comic bearing them out either.

[Aasimar]

1) Eugene, and 2) people on this forum, have proposed that Roy is unable to accomplish his goals because he's a fighter.

The comic has never borne them out. Roy's clash with Thog is not the comic bearing them out either.

Well, sure, the comic does give him some leeway. But consider how his last confrontation with Xykon went. The gap between them does nothing but grow.

Levels 10-12 are the last before spellcasters start 'seriously' outstripping fighter types in terms of abilities. So even if against non-Xykon characters he could previously hold his own, he will start to be less and less able to as time goes on.

Further, even against non-fighter melee types, his one distinction, feats, starts having less and less impact (as he runs out of meaningful feats to pick) against barbarians, paladins and rangers who continue accruing special features of some sort. (spells in the case of paladins and rangers, DR and extra hp in the case of barbarians)

[ThePhantasm]

But consider how his last confrontation with Xykon went. The gap between them does nothing but grow.

Xykon is an epic level lich. Roy becoming a spellsword wouldn't exactly help him here. "The gap between them does nothing but grow"? Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Wasn't trying to be snippy earlier, apologies if it came off that way.

[Kish]

Well, sure, the comic does give him some leeway. But consider how his last confrontation with Xykon went.
Like a clash between a mid-level character and a thoroughly epic character, sure enough.

Or are you implying that "Tier 1" Vaarsuvius did better?

From the rest of your post, you appear to be very certain that Rich will want to or feel obligated to or...for any reason, will spend the rest of the comic demonstrating that Roy's class is inferior to other classes. I don't think that's even a good bet, much less as certain as you're making it out to be.

[Aasimar]

I think the battle would have been much more equal had Roy been a level 14 wizard and Xykon a level 24 fighter.

Not equal enough for Roy to win perhaps, but you see where I'm going.

The basic problem is that as levels progress, the fighter gets to do the same thing, only incrementally better, while spellcasters get brand new tricks, the best of which are absolutely game-breaking.

At the very least, someone devoted to being a fighter should pick up tricks like sundering, tripping, etc.

[Gullintanni]

As much as Rich's world plays by the rules of 3.5, there are judicious applications of homebrew, artistic license and rule of cool. I wouldn't count on Rich using the tier system as a guideline for his story board. If Fighter needs to be effective to beat Lich, then Fighter will be effective. Roy wants to go single classed Fighter. Maybe he'll pick up a homebrew Feat or ACF, but regardless, there's no reason for Rich to confine himself to the pre-conceived limits of 3.5.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the battle would have been much more equal had Roy been a level 14 wizard and Xykon a level 24 fighter.

Not equal enough for Roy to win perhaps, but you see where I'm going.

The basic problem is that as levels progress, the fighter gets to do the same thing, only incrementally better, while spellcasters get brand new tricks, the best of which are absolutely game-breaking.

At the very least, someone devoted to being a fighter should pick up tricks like sundering, tripping, etc.

A triple gestalt epic level wizard lost in a fight to Xykon later in the comic and managed to do less bodily damage then Roy did either time. A level 14 wizard who is a control specialist might have been able to do more if they were built for it, but Xkyon can simply do what the ABD did and AMF+beat them to death. Short of absolutely tremendous shanananigans, a level 14 character is not going to beat an epic level lich.

And how would a real being separate themselves from their bias in the first place? In RL people still do martial arts, which are of extremely limited use against anyone with a gun, and for the most part striking styles are inferior to grappling styles yet are as common. The Japanese abandoned guns at one point for much less effective weapons, and the entire planet has taken its hands off of nukes. Yes, Roy could be more effective with a different build, just as all of them could be more effective. But they wouldn't be realistic characters at that point, they would be builds.

[Cizak]

OotS isn't a DnD campaign. The characters don't get certain skills because there aren't players who are just playing to create good monster killers.

Roy lived his entire life with a father who never did anything more than trying to push Roy inte chosing a profession he wasn't interested in and bashing the profession he eventually chosed. Then, Roy died and got to meet his grand father, and one of the very first things this grand father said as they went fishing was (basiclly): "And you've done a damn good job of it, son. A single classed fighter, just like me. I couldn't be more proud of you."

I at least think it's pretty clear why Roy doesn't multiclass.

[Nightmarenny]

A lot of people have been suggesting this. As the standard answers arn't working how about a new one?

It wouldn't do him any good. Lets assume that the Geekery thread is correct. Say Roy is level 12. So he takes his 13th level in in Wizard. So he is a Fighter 12/ Wizard 1. He has traded an increase in effectiveness(Base attack, Good Hit Die) for 1st level spell casting. Not great. He then is forced to take two more levels to get 2nd level spells. So he's a Fighter 12 Wizard 3. He's traded his strength for spells five levels lower than the max. Then at level 20(when V would have been able to Time stop, meteor Storm, Wish for several levels) Roy is a fighter 12/Wizard 3/Spellsword 5 and now has level 3rd level spells, he can cast Heroism and Fly. Versions of those spells that last much shorter than if V cast them.

Its to late for the addition of spell casting to make a significant difference.

[Aasimar]

Well, Fly would've made a huge difference the last time around. :-P

But sure, spellsword ain't so great. But there must then be a fighter-choice of some sort that gives him a chance. If Elan could get a 'you really need this powerup son' prestige class, then surely Roy could get some anti-magic fighter class (I'm sure there is one somewhere) that gives him SR or something.

Like I said, I'm not trying to diminish Roy's character here. Just agreeing with Thog that there must be something he can do to get that monstrous intelligence working for him.

[Nightmarenny]

Well, Fly would've made a huge difference the last time around. :-P

But sure, spellsword ain't so great. But there must then be a fighter-choice of some sort that gives him a chance. If Elan could get a 'you really need this powerup son' prestige class, then surely Roy could get some anti-magic fighter class (I'm sure there is one somewhere) that gives him SR or something.

Like I said, I'm not trying to diminish Roy's character here. Just agreeing with Thog that there must be something he can do to get that monstrous intelligence working for him.

Certainly Roy could really use something. He likely will stay a fighter but if he really wanted to change his game Witch slayer or that class from weapons of Legacy would work better.

RE:The Fly Spell, He does need something but an item that lets him fly would be more cost efficient.

[G-Man Graves]

basically, just saying that it annoys me that a guy like roy can be taken apart by an idiot like Thog, not because he refuses to ubermunchkinize, but just because he refuses to even be a little bit smart about his choices.

Roy lost in a fight to Thog? I don't think I've seen that, could you post the link?

[rewinn]

RE:The Fly Spell, He does need something but an item that lets him fly would be more cost efficient.
Indeed! MOST of what Roy could accomplish by deviating from his chosen path could be accomplished by acquiring better magic items (...an option that Elan rejected for reasons of squamishness....the besetting weakness of chaotic good I suppose.) For example, Miko took V out of a fight with a simple tanglefoot bag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

Keep in mind Roy's objective is not to be the best at PvP. His objective is to Save The World. For that, it's more important that he assemble a ragtag band of misfits than that he become Conan. Of course, when he is stuck in a 1v1 situation, optimizing his build for Conanosity would be useful.

[Aasimar]

Obviously, he hasn't lost...probably won't.

But it's a real possibility.

[veti]

I think the obvious point that we're in danger of overlooking here is that Roy does use his INT, WIS and CHA. Those are the qualities that make him a good party leader, and he uses them to put and hold together his team of semi-trained quasi-professionals - who, together, are far more effective than any one character could be.

Roy recognises that D&D is a team game - one character isn't supposed to be able to do everydamnthing, just fill a niche to support their teammates.

Of course when he's on his own, that strategy doesn't look so hot. But those times are the exception. Besides, his teammates may yet help him out there too.

[Nightmarenny]

Obviously, he hasn't lost...probably won't.

But it's a real possibility.

I can think of a few way Roy might beat thog but I should point out that Roy winning is not a forgone conclusion. The fight may be stopped by the the other fights spreading to far. Roy could be tossed his Sword. Roy could simply loss and be spared.

If however Roy is beaten by Thog I do feel that despite his pride of being a single Class Fighter he will be looking for a way to better use his attributes. Using his int for something crunch-wise would seem an ok deviation as long as he stays a melee oriented Fighter. Perhaps a home-brew feat?

Side-note I want to point this out because everybody seems to forget this. He doesn't have the feat his grandfather taught him. Or at least we can't be sure he does. His grandfather told him he'd have to take the feat when he leveled. We haven't seen him level yet.

[rolling 4]

but does that keep it from happing off panel im pretty sure ive only seen maybe two lvl ups in the entire comic and one was on the first strip.

[Nightmarenny]

but does that keep it from happing off panel im pretty sure ive only seen maybe two lvl ups in the entire comic and one was on the first strip.
As i said we can't be sure. He may have gained the feat already but if there are any level ups you could bet we will see its this one. I is very plot-centric.

[GSFB]

Funny, the only time we have seen Roy and Thog actually finish a fight, didn't Roy win due to his fighter-class weapon specialization?

My prediction is, Roy wins again, probably due to a new bonus feat - a bonus feat he was able to get because fighters get bonus feats.

[Nightmarenny]

Funny, the only time we have seen Roy and Thog actually finish a fight, didn't Roy win due to his fighter-class weapon specialization?

My prediction is, Roy wins again, probably due to a new bonus feat - a bonus feat he was able to get because fighters get bonus feats.

Back then they were, like, level 6. back then a slightly better Str and Con combined with the feat he had and a good AC could go toe to toe with a barbarian. Plus thog had likely used his rage already. Now both are armor-less with mundane weapons. At this level the barbarian has long surpassed even a well build fighter. All things equal Thog wins this fight.

[SPoD]

I think the obvious point that we're in danger of overlooking here is that Roy does use his INT, WIS and CHA. Those are the qualities that make him a good party leader, and he uses them to put and hold together his team of semi-trained quasi-professionals - who, together, are far more effective than any one character could be.

Roy recognises that D&D is a team game - one character isn't supposed to be able to do everydamnthing, just fill a niche to support their teammates.

Of course when he's on his own, that strategy doesn't look so hot. But those times are the exception. Besides, his teammates may yet help him out there too.

I was reading this thread, getting ready to post this exact thing.

Roy will beat Xykon not because of his personal stats, but because he has built a team that will work well together and offset each others' weaknesses. His mistake when he fought Xykon before was not "being a single-classed fighter," it was "being alone." That won't happen when the final confrontation happens.

And I would bet any amount of money that the most recent strip is the first part of Rich showing that you DON'T need to multiclass or optimize to play intelligently. I'm sure Roy will beat Thog, and possibly the whole Linear Guild, by using the very Intelligence score that Thog is now mocking as useless. Because brains will always win over brawn in the end.

[Holy_Knight]

If Elan could get a 'you really need this powerup son' prestige class, then surely Roy could get some anti-magic fighter class
I think you're looking at it too mechanically. When Elan became a Dashing Swordsman, it was largely just an extension of who he was already. He's always had a flair for the dramatic, always seen the world in terms of narrative, and so on. The story called for him to transcend his role of singing about heroes, to become a hero himself--and his training with Julio Scoundrel was basically learning how to apply the inner qualities he'd always had in order to do that. In the same way, any sort of upgrade Roy gets ought to come from within him as well. In his case, that's probably going to mean specifically not changing or adding classes at all, because showing that a single-classed fighter is a viable and valuable life path is such a large part of who he is. What Roy needs to show is the benefit of a strong mind in combat, apart from any strict numerical type of advantage. Remember when Roy and Thog first met, and Roy hoped to compare tactical notes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) with him? That's the kind of thing that Thog, a "smash it 'till it's smashed" kind of character will never understand or be capable of, and it's that sort of thing--i.e. cleverness and cunning in fighting--that I expect will allow Roy to prevail over Thog here, rather than any silver bullet feat or Intelligence modifier-based advantage of the type Thog alludes to in his taunts.

[SPoD]

In a way, having a feat or class that adds your Int modifier to your attack rolls is just another kind of dumb force. After all, Intelligence scores are just a number on a page, applied to a die roll. They require no more planning or strategy on the part of the player than a barbarian smashing with Strength. True intelligence comes from how you use those numbers.

[Morgan Wick]

OotS isn't a DnD campaign. The characters don't get certain skills because there aren't players who are just playing to create good monster killers.

This. The OP is falling victim to a variant of OOTS Gamer Theory Syndrome (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2008/11/if-this-post-is-full-of-the-html-code-for-an-ampersand-in-hyperlinks-that-get-broken-as-a-result-blame-bloggers-draft-post-editor/), attempting to apply gamer logic to the decisions of the cast. A gamer, even a non-munchkin one, can look at the situation perfectly logically, and sees no reason not to optimise his build to his stats. Roy is an actual character with actual life experiences, not merely "roleplaying kludges", that have shaped who he is and given him certain neuroses that affect the way he makes decisions. Sure, he could take a fancy prestige class that would be better suited for his Int... but he'd never be able to live with the gloating he knew his father would engage in for eternity.

Now, I am open to the possibility that Roy may eventually swallow his pride and add some magic to his build - he's shown signs of dabbling in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html)- but it is rather unlikely.

[Souhiro]

You know, Spellsword would do more harm than good!
Since Roy won't be able to use his armor, if he want to use any spells in combat.

A Fighter is the one who charges, the one who smash and tank. If he want to use his spells, he won't be able to use most of his feats, nor able to attack thrice, and until he can channel spells many times, his spells would be useless in combat, in the front line (which is his place)

Taking a wizard/sorc level, would only be useful to him in order to use scrolls, wands and rods. But he has Vaarsuvius to do that.

And seriously, Roy is just AWESOME as a Fighter. He is truly brave (Most of PCs in any game won't charge, without fear of death, as he does!)

[Souhiro]

I think you're looking at it too mechanically. When Elan became a Dashing Swordsman, it was largely just an extension of who he was already.

I must disagree. Elan didn't did many thing by himself in all the sory of the comic, until he became a Dashing Swordman. He was a Load for the order: he didn't defeat any bad guys by himself, his songs tended to do more harm than good... I think the only time he did something REALLY important for the order, was keeping the girdle of masculinity/feminity for Roy. Darn, remember than in the first battle against Xykon, Roy didn't give any orders to him!

When he went into training with Jack Sparr... er... J.S. he was finally a USEFUL character and a companion for everyone, but before that, he was just the team pet.


Roy IS useful, he is the pride of "I'm a Lawful Good Fighter With high INT, WIS and CHA, and I do NOT want to be a Paladin nor a Wizard". If he puts himself into spellcasting, he would betray everything he has been.

[Dingle]

Roy has used his intelligence in a fight; one-on-one with an optimised melee build AND with an improvised weapon no less.

see oots 0216 Perfect Combo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

[Zmflavius]

I must disagree. Elan didn't did many thing by himself in all the sory of the comic, until he became a Dashing Swordman. He was a Load for the order: he didn't defeat any bad guys by himself, his songs tended to do more harm than good... I think the only time he did something REALLY important for the order, was keeping the girdle of masculinity/feminity for Roy. Darn, remember than in the first battle against Xykon, Roy didn't give any orders to him!

When he went into training with Jack Sparr... er... J.S. he was finally a USEFUL character and a companion for everyone, but before that, he was just the team pet.


I believe in this case, you're misinterpreting what Holy Knight said. What he said was not that he became more useful, but that Dashing Swordsman was a natural personality progression from Bard. That he became more useful naturally occurred as part of this character growth.

[FujinAkari]

Its simple.

Prestige Classes are PRESTIGIOUS. They're bloody rare and it is an extreme accomplishment to be awarded one. You can't just choose to become one, it has to be given to you.

This is not to undercut the other points in this thread, as I think Roy would refuse, but Aasimar is falling for "gamer-logic" and forgetting the flavor of the Prestige Class.

[Holy_Knight]

I believe in this case, you're misinterpreting what Holy Knight said. What he said was not that he became more useful, but that Dashing Swordsman was a natural personality progression from Bard. That he became more useful naturally occurred as part of this character growth.
Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you, Zmflavius.

[Hironomus]

How many people in the Oots comic are optomized? I don't think that the characters are aware of optomization, or they are but only in the same way that people like us are aware that some people become astronauts (any astronauts reading this aside, of course).

Not much attention to detail is paid to any stats really. That's why stats speculation threads exist I guess. Thats just the way the comic is written. It's better that way I think.

[Jubal_Barca]

As everyone's said, playing D&D effectively doesn't have to be all about your level and abilities - in fact, this is a thread running right through OOTS. The most obvious example, of course, is V; V with epic spells and soul splices achieves LESS against Xykon than regular, beaten-up V who plays smart and uses what he has to hand. This is another twist of the same thread really, Roy can do more with his brain than just use it as part of a statline.

[Knaight]

Roy will beat Xykon not because of his personal stats, but because he has built a team that will work well together and offset each others' weaknesses. His mistake when he fought Xykon before was not "being a single-classed fighter," it was "being alone." That won't happen when the final confrontation happens.

Its not even just a matter of being alone. Xykon initiated that battle, Xykon was prepared, and Roy chose to fight on Xykon's terms. That's a terrible idea, fighting on Xykon's terms tends to work poorly for people. V and his soul splices lost due partially to this, Dorukon lost partially to this, Eugene Greenhilt's mentor lost to this, and off screen 12 druids and a potted bush lost to this.

[BlackestOfMages]

well, as stated, Roy wants to prove to his father that arcane magic is not all-powerful and unbetable, so becoming an arcane mage probably wouldn't achieve that goal. He's also very proud of his families heratige as Fighters (everyone other than Eugene), so he's probably gonna avoid that class.

though the ammount of power he gets from anger sometimes make me thing Thog's the fighter, and Roy is the barbarian...

though they do know about optimisation*, I doubt anyone is that much of an adherant to is. save redcloak, who's probably optimized to fudgem, but that's just the kinda vibe I get from him
*
Thog's two level's of fighter, and the mage aiming for arcane trickster in OoPCs, who literally states he nly has 2 more levels of sucking ass...

[Jubal_Barca]

off screen 12 druids and a potted bush lost to this.

And I bet the potted bush wasn't even masterwork, either. :smallbiggrin:

[Typewriter]

The fact of the matter is that Roy isn't going to succeed or fail based off of his class, feats, stats, or any other gaming construct.

He's going to succeed or fail based off of what the story calls for. If the story is about Roy losing this battle then it doesn't matter if he's a level 30 deity fighting a level 1 commoner - he's still going to lose because that's what the story calls for.

The story may use his class, feats, stats, and other gaming constructs to explain his loss or victory, but it doesn't mean that they're the reason he wins or loses.

/2 cents

[ThePhantasm]

The fact of the matter is that Roy isn't going to succeed or fail based off of his class, feats, stats, or any other gaming construct.

He's going to succeed or fail based off of what the story calls for. If the story is about Roy losing this battle then it doesn't matter if he's a level 30 deity fighting a level 1 commoner - he's still going to lose because that's what the story calls for.

The story may use his class, feats, stats, and other gaming constructs to explain his loss or victory, but it doesn't mean that they're the reason he wins or loses.

/2 cents

Well, isn't this kind of obvious? Of course Rich isn't rolling die here to see if Roy wins or loses. Of course this is planned out in advance according to plot. But Roy will have to succeed based on the skills and abilities he has at his disposal. . . perhaps I'm missing your point?

[Typewriter]

What I was saying is that Roy isn't going to optimize because the story doesn't call for it. Even if it did he would still lose this fight if that twas the way the story was aimed.

I agree that this is obvious, but my point was aimed at Aasimar, who seems to think that Roy would have an easier time if he optimized. What I'm saying is that he wouldn't because the characters effectiveness does not determine the story, it's the story that determines the characters effectiveness.

[FujinAkari]

Which should be the same as a real game anyway... any DM worth his or her salt will craft encounters based on the party... it was an ongoing rule in any game I was in: "The cheesier <censored> you all try and pull, the more the enemy'll do to you..."

It was funny... one guy did some crazy build and had SOOO many Harm / Quickened Cause Light Wounds after that...