Can Redcloak...(SoD SPOILERS!) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Dr.Epic

2011-05-19, 02:52 PM

Can he resurrect his family?

In theory he can as he is a high enough cleric to do it. The possibility he can/will do this?

Right Eye: Yeah, I doubt he'll open up that can of worms.
His other relations: He could if he's high enough level to perform a True Resurrection which Belkar hinted at he's high enough to do, though I'm not sure why he'd want to this late in the game.

Morty

2011-05-19, 02:52 PM

Yeah, what Kish said. Redcloak needs diamonds for the ressurection, and I very much doubt Xykon would let him spend 15k worth of diamonds to ressurect some 1 HD goblin mooks.

Caractacus

2011-05-19, 02:56 PM

Even if Redcloak got together the diamonds necessary in a way that meant no loss to Xykon, the point above about permission bulks pretty large.

The Brother issue and the Eye issue suggest that Xykon would throw a nasty fit - and with Xykon, you have NO idea what that might mean.

I would LOVE Redcloak to get his family back - he certainly deserves it, but he'd pretty much have to do it behind Xykon's back I should think...and I wouldn't go there...

Fitzclowningham

2011-05-19, 03:04 PM

He definitely couldn't res his parents - they'd be too old by now.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-19, 03:20 PM

He definitely couldn't res his parents - they'd be too old by now.

What does that have to do with being able to res them? In D&D, you can resurrect anyone of any age.

Roland Itiative

2011-05-19, 03:38 PM

He definitely couldn't res his parents - they'd be too old by now.

I think that brings up an interesting point... If someone dies, and then people try to resurrect this someone after some years... Would they age accordingly?

If the answer is "yes", then Redcloak probably can't resurrect his family, as they'd be beyond their natural lifespan (don't forget the Crimson Mantle allows RC to live longer than his lifespan would allow, and Goblins are short-lived).

Caractacus

2011-05-19, 03:46 PM

I think that brings up an interesting point... If someone dies, and then people try to resurrect this someone after some years... Would they age accordingly?

If the answer is "yes", then Redcloak probably can't resurrect his family, as they'd be beyond their natural lifespan (don't forget the Crimson Mantle allows RC to live longer than his lifespan would allow, and Goblins are short-lived).

Unless the rules have changed since I played (and that was a looong time ago, so they may have), they return at the age they died, but then continue ageing normally. When someone dies of old age, however, that's it. Hence, Roy's dad's comment about really dying after being resurrected a number of times...

martianmister

2011-05-19, 03:50 PM

So, he can resurrect them without any problem about rules, right?

Caractacus

2011-05-19, 03:52 PM

I *think* that that's the case, yes. But as I am waaay out of date, I am open to those who can show me to be wrong...:smallbiggrin:

Kish

2011-05-19, 04:36 PM

So, he can resurrect them without any problem about rules, right?
Rephrase "about rules."

AKA_Bait

2011-05-19, 04:41 PM

So, he can resurrect them without any problem about rules, right?

In 3.5, which is the OotSverse rules-wise, mostly, yes.

But, as said, the whole Xykon thing is the major issue. Also, consider too that Redcloak might not want to face his remaining family after what he did to Right Eye.

IronWilliam

2011-05-19, 04:55 PM

I think he could, but in SoD he chose not to raise right-eye, and 15k worth of diamonds could be hard to find even if xycon would let him.

Swordpriest

2011-05-19, 05:12 PM

By the rules, he can raise them. But would they return just to be cannon fodder for Xykon again? Heck, would Right-Eye trust his backstabbing older brother after being set up like that?

CletusMusashi

2011-05-19, 06:20 PM

Xykon would probably kill and zombify them the second they re-appeared.

BlackestOfMages

2011-05-19, 06:31 PM

Xykon would not give up 15k worth of diamonds to raise any number of goblins, save for Right eye as he's not an average goblin, just because of the cost.

He'd also not give up the cash to raise Right eye, as he's not loyal, and also near natural dead at time of disintigration, so it wouldn;t be worth it.

and Redcloak couldn't do it without Xykons permision, as he's too much of a spineless coward

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-19, 11:04 PM

But, as said, the whole Xykon thing is the major issue. Also, consider too that Redcloak might not want to face his remaining family after what he did to Right Eye.
Right. If he raised the rest of his family, he’d have to grow the balls to lie to them about why Right-eye didn’t get raised.

By the rules, he can raise them. But would they return just to be cannon fodder for Xykon again?
It’s likely Right-eye would be the only one aware that they’d be returning as little more than canon fodder. The rest of his family died long before Redcloak ever met Xykon, and the dead generally don’t watch the living (Eugene and Roy being notable exceptions).

Heck, would Right-Eye trust his backstabbing older brother after being set up like that?
SoD
Xykon certainly doesn’t think he would.

GSFB

2011-05-20, 12:25 AM

all the other points are valid, but the diamonds required would not be a factor. team evil is high enough level that mere fiscal wealth is of little consequence. they have a city and all its coffers, and that's just what they recently captured, and does not even contemplate what they already had stashed away. redcloak probably has a large stash of suitable diamonds in his own reserve, just for use should he want/need to perform any resurrections.

the real issues are: 1) would they want to come back? and 2) what would xykon do? my guess is 1) no, because 2) if they came back, xykon would turn them into undead for fun.

SPoD

2011-05-20, 01:09 AM

Tvtyrant

2011-05-20, 01:27 AM

If Redcloak resurrected his mother, sister, older brother, etc., the first question they would ask him would be, "Where's your younger brother?"

Redcloak does not want to answer that question, so he won't ever resurrect them, all other concerns aside.

"He wouldn't come" would be the easiest response, but more importantly IMO is the fact that Redcloak couldn't protect them right now; its not till Xykon is dead and the goblins are a free people that it would even start seeming probable.

Gift Jeraff

2011-05-20, 01:45 AM

Even if Redcloak out"lives" Xykon, the only person I can see him trying to resurrect is his Sister, since a) she was young (possibly even younger than Right-Eye), b) she didn't get to die fighting or anything (unlike Redcloak's Uncle, Eldest Brother, and Right-Eye's family), and c) he views her death as something that could have been prevented were it not for Right-Eye's actions.

factotum

2011-05-20, 01:59 AM

I like the way everybody (other than Kish) is assuming Redcloak is high enough level to cast True Resurrection--because he'd have to be to be able to resurrect people who died more than 30 years before the online strip started! The only member of his family who he *could* raise, assuming he's only high enough level for a standard Resurrection, is Right-Eye--and we all know darned well why THAT won't happen.

Gift Jeraff

2011-05-20, 02:22 AM

I like the way everybody (other than Kish) is assuming Redcloak is high enough level to cast True Resurrection
Or maybe we're just assuming he can just in this purely hypothetical situation for the sake of discussion. Besides, it's not like he can't eventually reach 17th-level. :smallconfused:

faustin

2011-05-20, 04:16 AM

Redcloack´s relationship with his own past is contradictory... for one hand, all his actions and goals are motivated for it; on the other hand, He is afraid to confront his past mistakes and sins (like killing his own brother to protect Xykon for the sake of the Plan), so He really hides of it. I doubt he is prepared to face his long dead family and give them explanations about his doings.

HappyBlanket

2011-05-20, 04:43 AM

Ancalagon

2011-05-20, 05:42 AM

Redcloak is at least level 15. True Res isn't that far away.

Also: He has been level 15 for a long, long time. So he cannot be far away if he cannot do it it already.
Apart from that: Scrolls! So Redcloak is two or so levels too low to cast a specific spell? Well, casting the spell from a scroll is not that hard, especially if he has time to prepare (by boosting his wis + make sure he can take the possible repercussions of a backlash).

Now, you could assume it's hard to get level 9 scrolls but "stuff" seems to be available in general in the OotS-world. So I'd be surprised if you could not get Level 9 scrolls in some magic shop, in the Quick-E-Mart, or from ebay.

martianmister

2011-05-20, 11:31 AM

Also remember, his other family members could be more supportive about Dark One's plan.

Psyren

2011-05-27, 01:24 AM

"He wouldn't come" would be the easiest response,

...And one not even the densest family members would accept.

No, I'm with SPoD on this one.

Morquard

2011-05-27, 01:55 AM

Most people assume Right-eye would not want to come back.
I think he might. If he ever gets a ressurrection attempt by Redcloak (remember, dead souls know who is trying to ress them) he might take the chance in the hope that Redcloak is finally free of Xykon.

What is quite another possibility that prevents this is that Xykon might have stashed Right-eye's zombie body somewhere that RC doesn't know about, as I think even TR has the restriction that the original body (even though you don't need it and it can have been completely destroyed), can't have been turned into an undead and still be around.

As for the rest of the family: They might know what happened. RE might have met them in the afterlife and told them. One of them might have watched and told the rest.
They might or might not come back for any number of reasons.

Souhiro

2011-05-27, 02:16 AM

I would LOVE Redcloak to get his family back - he certainly deserves it...
Seriously, wht comic has been you reading?
Many Hobbo-Gobbo lovers say that Azurites weren't any better than hobbos. But azurites didn't keep hundreds (or even thousands) slaves from the war, nor did they threaten a prisoner with the posibility of cast docents of innocents to the Rift to the Snarl (And a Cleric would know that is a fate worse than death, since those souls may don't get to the afterlife)

Nor did they feed it's own men to a monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0192.gif), or sacrificing them to make a ladder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/Jm1k8pD0PPxQ9ci1EIZ.gif)... And that is what I found in just a minute, in the webcomic.

The ONLY thing Redcloack deserve is the hammer of Durkon coming down to his skull at high speeds, or O'Chul's blade in it guts, or being cast to a fate worse than death.

He definitely couldn't res his parents - they'd be too old by now. I remember a campaign, were there was an ancient hero who defeated "Your stantard evil guy absurdly powerful". And fearing that evil guy could back, he let's himself be killed, and put into a graveyard with his weapons, and a scroll of True Rez, "Just in case he is needed again". So, according that campaign, while you're dead, you don't age.

Tvtyrant

2011-05-27, 02:22 AM

...And one not even the densest family members would accept.

No, I'm with SPoD on this one.

And? Why does he have to care? I wouldn't in his place. Unless resurrecting them is only for his own enjoyment and he doesn't actually care about them.

Psyren

2011-05-27, 03:00 PM

And? Why does he have to care? I wouldn't in his place. Unless resurrecting them is only for his own enjoyment and he doesn't actually care about them.

If he doesn't care about them, he won't resurrect them.

If he does care about them, he won't be able to face them as they ask more and more pointed questions about Right-Eye's absence.

Either way, he wouldn't resurrect them. (Assuming he even has the capability.)

The Pilgrim

2011-05-27, 05:01 PM

To be fair, Xykon can't tell one goblin from another, so he could not notice Redcloak had resurrected his family.

Plus, Redcloak could resurrect them just before Team Evil leaves Gobbtopia, so Xykon wouldn't even met them.

Won't happen, through. Whould kill most of Redcloak's personal motivation. Also, the Battle for Azure City made him shackle his chains a bit, but Xykon has already forced him back to lapdog status, and Redcloak won't dare to work behind him.

cho_j

2011-05-28, 02:21 AM

In theory he can as he is a high enough cleric to do it. The possibility he can/will do this?

Right Eye: Yeah, I doubt he'll open up that can of worms.
His other relations: He could if he's high enough level to perform a True Resurrection which Belkar hinted at he's high enough to do, though I'm not sure why he'd want to this late in the game.

This is pretty much it, right here. I bet Redcloak is powerful enough, but it seems silly for him to do it this long after the fact and he's got a whole lot of 'splaining to do if he does.

The only reason I can come up with that he'd suddenly decide to res them for at this point is that he's now sure there's a safe place for them: Gobbotopia. After all, "this one's for you, Mom," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) right? But given the fact that he knows he'll be leaving Gobbotopia ASAP, coupled with the nasty little reminder he just got that his and everyone he knows' well being is dependent on Xykon's good mood, I doubt Redcloak would bring his family back even now.

Ancalagon

2011-05-28, 03:33 AM

I doubt he'll do it, simply because Redcloak is someone who is out to justify what he did, not to fix the side effects.

Raising his family and working to get things in a good order again is not what he does. All of SoD is about setting a character who does only look back to find guilt and only looks forward to ponder how to justify all that he has done.

Changing that to "fixing things of the past" would be a change of character that we have not been hinted to.

Blackcloak

2011-05-29, 09:32 PM

Seriously, wht comic has been you reading?
Many Hobbo-Gobbo lovers say that Azurites weren't any better than hobbos. But azurites didn't keep hundreds (or even thousands) slaves from the war, nor did they threaten a prisoner with the posibility of cast docents of innocents to the Rift to the Snarl (And a Cleric would know that is a fate worse than death, since those souls may don't get to the afterlife)

Nor did they feed it's own men to a monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0192.gif), or sacrificing them to make a ladder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/Jm1k8pD0PPxQ9ci1EIZ.gif)... And that is what I found in just a minute.
Wait just a minute! For the second one, that's "Xykon", not Redcloak! And also...
It appears that you're forgetting that Redcloak has given up everything from his name to his family to his honor for the goblin race- The Dark One's plan. Sure, it's an evil plan, but it's a lawful evil plan for racial equality. Redcloak getting his family back is the very LEAST he deserves.

Red XIV

2011-05-29, 11:36 PM

Redcloak is at least level 15. True Res isn't that far away.
At what point did we establish what Redcloak's exact level is?

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-05-29, 11:51 PM

At what point did we establish what Redcloak's exact level is?
We don’t have his exact level. Hence “At least” level 15.

The mark for at least level 15 is from OotS 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), where Redcloak casts extended summon monster VII. A cleric must be at least 15th level to have the 8th-level spell slot required by that spell and metamagic combination. Therefore, Redcloak must be 15th level or higher.

rewinn

2011-05-30, 12:22 AM

Why would Redcloak want to bring his family back from the goblin afterlife?

It doesn't seem to be such a bad place. The Dark One isn't torturing his followers or anything. It seems a much safer place than anywhere within Xykon's line-of-sight.

Conuly

2011-05-30, 09:52 AM

But Azurites didn't keep hundreds (or even thousands) slaves from the war, nor did they threaten a prisoner with the posibility of cast dozens of innocents to the Rift to the Snarl

1. We don't know if they kept slaves or not, do we? We haven't seen any evidence of such - but then, we don't constantly see slaves in the Gobbotopia scenes today either. Lack of proof is not proof of lack and all that.

Now, I agree it is *unlikely* that they kept slaves... but only because I think they were more inclined to slaughter everybody down to the last baby. Why do I think this? Because we've seen it happen. And when we're debating the relative ethics of slavery vs. wholesale slaughter of infants and toddlers (among others), I don't think either side is going to come out looking too rosy. Heck, you could easily make the argument that the goblins are better *because* they are keeping slaves instead of killing them en masse!

2. They didn't have that option, though, as they had no rift and the snarl was safely contained. Would they have done so had they had the option? I don't think so - but honestly, we've only seen the actions of relatively few paladins, so we don't know. Likewise, we've only seen the actions of a few high-ranking goblins, so, again, we don't really know if his actions would be approved or condoned by most.

As far as feeding "his own men" to a monster or building a ramp out of their bodies, remember that at the time he held a huge grudge against hobgoblins. He's since had character development. Not *much*, but learning to accept all goblinkind as his own people is definitely a step forward.

Of course, the question is "How much redemption and character development can you get, and is it enough to make up for the bad things you did before?", and none of us has the answer to that.

Bleak Ink

2011-06-02, 10:15 PM

Why would Redcloak want to bring his family back from the goblin afterlife?

This is my question, as well. In the afterlife, his family will never have to worry about adventurers, paladins, disease, death or separation again; they’re about as safe and cared for as possible. Not to mention, all of their friends and extended family are there as well. They have literally nothing for them back on the mortal plane, except Redcloak.

KillItWithFire

2011-06-03, 05:44 AM

We don’t have his exact level. Hence “At least” level 15.

The mark for at least level 15 is from OotS 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), where Redcloak casts extended summon monster VII. A cleric must be at least 15th level to have the 8th-level spell slot required by that spell and metamagic combination. Therefore, Redcloak must be 15th level or higher.

and if that's not enough when Redcloak summons the blade barrier to keep Tsukiko out of the castle he remarks on how it does 15d6 of damage. Blade Barrier does cleric caser leveld6 and caps at 15. :smallsmile: