[3.5] Need help with a tibbit Dragonfire Adept // Spellthief

[Hawkflight]

Hi. So, I'm making a character for a 5th-level gestalt campaign. She's a Tibbit with dragon ancestry, and she's a DFA and a Spellthief. Problem is, I'm not entirely sure how to make this character, because I've never played a Spellthief before. (Or a DFA, but I've done plenty of research on that topic.) I was planning on being the team's skillmonkey and face, using the draconic invocation for +6 Diplomacy, Intimidate and Bluff, and also battlefield control using Slow Breath and Clinging Breath, and maybe Entangling Breath. I was also going to be a bit of a know-it-all with the invocation for Knowledge checks.

So, can someone help me out with making this character? I've decided on my classes and invocations, and a couple of skills, but other than that she's a clean slate. Though, I do intend to burn a feat on getting a familiar or a cohort, as I really want a talking mouse companion. Still working out the details on that.

Fun fact: I almost went Spellthief // Fire Mage, for 1d6/level firebolt (ranged sneak-attackable fire touch attack) and fireball at-will. But then I wouldn't be able to use these nifty invocations, like the one to turn invisible next level.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention: I don't think this game will go past level 10. Just in cast that changes everything (which it probably does).

EDIT: I want to remain in cat form as much as possible, but I won't be upset if I have to use my human form for certain tasks.

[Glimbur]

Spellthief doesn't add a lot to DFA. You have to make attack rolls to sneak attack, and most spellthief abilities key off of sneak attack. You might be better served as Warlock//Spellthief, which also gives invocations but you attack with a ranged touch attack. Pick up Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic and, assuming you can survive in melee, you can use many sneak attacks.

Alternately, go DFA//Rogue or Bard for extra skillmonkey-ness and other boosts.

In general, Gestalt works well if you have an active side and a passive side. DFA takes your actions during combat, so it is good if your other class supports that passively. It could be Monk for saving throws, a caster class for pre-buffs, rogue for skills, barbarian for better hit die and rage to up Con, (but the BAB is kind of a waste), or Binder(Tome of Magic) or Incarnate(Magic of Incarnum) for passive boosts.

[Hawkflight]

I ... see. But isn't the Spellthief just a Rogue with less Sneak Attack and the ability to steal spells? Forgive my ignorance, as I said I've never played a Spellthief before.

EDIT: What I was thinking was, outside of combat I could be the skillmonkey and face, with help from the draconic invocations (some of which the Warlock doesn't get). In battle, I could Clinging Slow Breath a group of enemies for battlefield control, and while I'm not doing that I can do ... rogue-y stuff.

[Darth Stabber]

Spell thief is mostly terrible, infact it is lower tiered than rogue if memory serves (and has less splat support). As a dfa you primary combat ability does not require an attack roll, as a spell thief you need to make attack rolls to use half your class features. Warlock on the other hand makes attack rolls, and more to the point I do believe that they actually can use the invocations from dragon magic (though not the breath weapon stuff). Spell thief trades some sneak attack dice, skill, and debatably useful abilities for magic and stealing other people's magic. Their own spell progression is too weak to be useful, and the requirements to steal spells are too stringent, you are honestly better off as a rogue, especially in gestalt. Spell thief tries to be a self contained arcane trickster while still having their own unique thing, but the result is an ugly mess. DFA is a decent class, even in gestalt, but given that it's primary offense doesn't support precision damage, it won't mix well with rogue-ish types. DFA mixes very well with favored soul btw.

Warlock//spell thief maintains the vast bulk of what you want, while having much better synergy. DFA//Incarnate is a bit MAD, but it better supports your firebreathing skill mokey plans. DFA/feat rogue, offers a good fit as well, since you get all the skill, but you traded the otherwise useless SA for fighter bonus feats, it seems strange, but think of the weird crap you could pull off with that many feats.

[Hawkflight]

So, you're suggesting Martial Rogue over Spellthief. Got it. Should I take it all the way through, or should I sprinkle in two Fighter levels for more bonus feats, or three levels of Factotum for awesomesauce?

Also, what's Incarnate? MAD might not be a problem, I rolled a pair of 17s, a pair of 15s, and a pair of 14s.

[Darth Stabber]

Incarnate is one of the classes in magic of incarnum. Basically every morning they shape sooul energy into soulmelds, which are like items. And you can change which ones you shape every day leading to a lot of versitility. Most of the incarnate's soulmelds give bonuses to skills. They also have essentia which are bits of energy they can move around to make each soulmeld better, so if one meld gives a +4 to say search and spot checks, you can move a point of essentia to it to give you an additional +2. The essentia capacity of each meld is dependant on on hit dice not class level, so they can still be functional as adip. As they level up they gain the ability to bind their soulmelds to a magic item slot, making them more powerful, but they lose access to magic items that sit in that slot. Like if you have a soulmeld bound to you hands, you can't use magic gloves. Some of the soulmelds do damage or give you armor or raise zombies, but given that a wide variety give you skill bonuses and you can pick different skill to get those bonus each morning, you end up with a decent skill monkey with some awesomely weird attacks and abilities.

And incarnate is dependant of con and wisdom (though wisdom is only used to set save DCs, and you can make a fine incarnate that doesn't throw out a ton of saves, but they are very con dependant).

[Hawkflight]

Hmmm ... I think I'll stick with DFA. It's more flavorful. I'm already losing the ability to steal spells, which was one of my favorite flavors.

EDIT: Oh, misread that. Nah, Incarnate just doesn't fir the flavor of the character, IMO. I might actually try to work up a Spellthief fix sometime we'll see how it goes.

[Darth Stabber]

So, you're suggesting Martial Rogue over Spellthief. Got it. Should I take it all the way through, or should I sprinkle in two Fighter levels for mot re bonus feats, or three levels of Factotum for awesomesauce?

Also, what's Incarnate? MAD might not be a problem, I rolled a pair of 17s, a pair of 15s, and a pair of 14s.

You probably should not take it all the way through. Two levels of fighter couldn't hurt, but you probably want to take a prestige class on the rogue side, couldn't tell you which though. Factotum is nice if you've got the int for it, but I don't know beyond that. Factotum abuse in gestalt usually involves wizard, archivist, or warblade.

[Hawkflight]

Right, so ... Martial Rogue seems made for a 2-level dip, but doesn't seem to offer much beyond that. A PrC would indeed be helpful, but I can't get it yet anyways, so I have time to think about that.

Is Swashbuckler worth the levels?

[Amnestic]

Hmmm ... I think I'll stick with DFA. It's more flavorful. I'm already losing the ability to steal spells, which was one of my favorite flavors.

EDIT: Oh, misread that. Nah, Incarnate just doesn't fir the flavor of the character, IMO. I might actually try to work up a Spellthief fix sometime we'll see how it goes.

Jarian made a Spellthief fix aimed at around Tier 2. Was it successful? I dunno! You can find it here though. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189612)

[Darth Stabber]

Hmmm ... I think I'll stick with DFA. It's more flavorful. I'm already losing the ability to steal spells, which was one of my favorite flavors.

I was suggesting incarnate replace spell thief, not DFA. I was suggesting warlock as a replacement for DFA if you wanted to keep spellthief, since they actually have some synergy together.

I never really understood DFA's flavor, especially in light of dragon shaman's existance. There is a ton of flavor overlap, and I always liked warlock's flavor. DFA seems like they took Dragon shaman's fluff and warlock's crunch and mashed them together. But then again I guess since I'm not a dragon fanboy I can't see why we need two types of dragon worshipping baseclasses.

[Hawkflight]

I was suggesting incarnate replace spell thief, not DFA. I was suggesting warlock as a replacement for DFA if you wanted to keep spellthief, since they actually have some synergy together.

I never really understood DFA's flavor, especially in light of dragon shaman's existance. There is a ton of flavor overlap, and I always liked warlock's flavor. DFA seems like they took Dragon shaman's fluff and warlock's crunch and mashed them together. But then again I guess since I'm not a dragon fanboy I can't see why we need two types of dragon worshipping baseclasses.

Yes, as I said, I misread.

And ... Dragon Shaman, you say? What is this and where is it from?

[Amnestic]

Yes, as I said, I misread.

And ... Dragon Shaman, you say? What is this and where is it from?

PHB2. It's a Dragon-themed class based primarily around passive auras. Its d10HD and primarily passive-stuff make it not bad for Gestalt. There are better options, but it's not bad in my eyes.

[Kylarra]

I think you should make bard into the other side. You inspire courage/dragonfire inspire through... purring. :smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

Yes, as I said, I misread.

And ... Dragon Shaman, you say? What is this and where is it from?

Dragon Shaman is an amusing little class from PHB2. You get auras that are somewhat like a marshal's, a breath weapon, and several weird abilities, mostly based off your character's choice of dragon color. I'll admit that the class isn't vey good, but it can be a ton of fun (though I usually strip all the dragon flavor out of it, and make it a more tribal thing, including the addition of illiteracy, and by the same token, the only time I ever played a DFA, he was refluffed as a firebreathing warlock).

[MeeposFire]

Dragon Shaman is an amusing little class from PHB2. You get auras that are somewhat like a marshal's, a breath weapon, and several weird abilities, mostly based off your character's choice of dragon color. I'll admit that the class isn't vey good, but it can be a ton of fun (though I usually strip all the dragon flavor out of it, and make it a more tribal thing, including the addition of illiteracy, and by the same token, the only time I ever played a DFA, he was refluffed as a firebreathing warlock).

Personally I prefer the DFA to dragon shaman (outside of the name shaman is a better name). DFAs can breath every round which is key to any class that wants to be a dragon (yea dragons can't do it but DFA is more about fun while dragons get more power). Dragon shamans have a weaker breath weapons, their aura is almost subverted by one feat (you only get one but really how many different auras are you going to use), and are not that strong in general. DFAs are actually very strong (better than warlocks even) as they are very good controllers and are tough.

One houserule I have considered though is adding the dragon shaman to the DFA to make a new Dragon Shaman. This class would have great skills, decent BAB, good saves, invocations, breath weapon, I let it add the dragon shaman BW dice to the DFA dice as an enhanced second breath weapon (there are a few restrictions of course), and decent healing. Could be very strong with good flavor.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DFAs can't use metabreath feats (Clinging Breath), due to their requirement of a wait-between-breaths-expressed-in-rounds, but Entangling Exhalation still works.

Why not just DFA//Factotum all the way? You'll get any skill you want, plenty of other nice Factotum abilities, DFA gives you offensive power and buffs, and you can use those Factotum spells for Breath Flare and Blinding Breath. Factotum spells are cast as though they were spell-like abilities, so you can even use them in cat form. Pick up Entangling Exhalation, maybe Ability Focus: Breath, and grab Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) three times. Say you visited the Iron Wyrm Vault detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat Tactile Trapsmith for 3,000 gp without spending a feat on it, it turns Search and Disable Device into Dex-based skills, and Factotum will add your Int bonus back into them again.

[Amnestic]

DFAs can't use metabreath feats (Clinging Breath), due to their requirement of a wait-between-breaths-expressed-in-rounds, but Entangling Exhalation still works.

Power Surge feat from Dragon Magazine...313? Can give your breath weapon a one round cooldown, letting you qualify for metabreath feats ;>

[Tokuhara]

I actually suggest Dragon Shaman as the other side of the gestalt. Better HD, Better BAB, Fills missing saves (IIRC), and let's you buff the rest of the party while also buffing yourself. Not to mention a second breath weapon/additional usages for Breath Invocations

[Hawkflight]

Okay, so my options:

DFA 5 // Martial Rogue 5
DFA 5 // Martial Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Something Else 1 (LA?)
DFA 5 // Martial Rogue 2 / Factotum 3
DFA 5 // Factotum 5

Thoughts?

[Kylarra]

Out of those I'd probably say straight factotum.

[Hawkflight]

Why, may I ask?

[Kylarra]

It's simplest and gives you a nice chassis to do whatever you want. Factotum is a very nice passive side and both classes are only really one stat dependent to function passably well. So you can pump your Con for survivability, Int for Skill points and Factotum abilities and then whatever's leftover can go into Dex or Cha to taste. You'll have D8 HD, Medium BAB and all good saves with 6+int skills and all skills class.

[Zaq]

(though I usually strip all the dragon flavor out of it, and make it a more tribal thing, including the addition of illiteracy, and by the same token, the only time I ever played a DFA, he was refluffed as a firebreathing warlock).

The one time I played a DFA, he was fluffed as Inspector Gadget. Go Go Gadget Hot Glue!

[Hawkflight]

I'm ... still having difficulty understanding why Factotum would be so good for me. It's not like I have 3 free feats to spend on Font of Inspiration.

[Kylarra]

Factotum don't need FoI to be good. It's a particular build that is never bad, but it's not needed to be good.

It really depends on what you want. Martial rogue 2/factotum 3 will work. You'll lose out on second level dilettante spells, a few other factotum tricks, and a few HPs, but if evasion, 2 more skillpoints/level and the bonus feats are what you want, then go for it. Try to trade out one of your trapfindings for something else though. I really wouldn't bother with fighter since you'll be losing out on a ton of skillpoints just for 2 bonus feats.

[Zaq]

A Factotum doesn't need FoI to do most of what they do so well. Even only one extra standard action per encounter is still an extra standard action per encounter. That's damned impressive. That's like a free Quickened spell in every encounter, only better, because it doesn't eat your swift action and doesn't restrict what you can do to just low-level stuff.

[Hawkflight]

Actually, I think I'll probably go with DFA 5 // Scout 5, with the feats Power Surge, Clinging Breath, Wild Cohort (for a talking mouse who can Detect Evil, non-negotiable), Improved Skirmish, and either Darkstalker or Extra Invocation.

[Zaq]

Actually, I think I'll probably go with DFA 5 // Scout 5, with the feats Power Surge, Clinging Breath, Wild Cohort (for a talking mouse who can Detect Evil, non-negotiable), Improved Skirmish, and either Darkstalker or Extra Invocation.

Scouts don't mesh terribly well with DFAs, if for no other reason than that Skirmish doesn't trigger on a breath weapon. If you're just going Scout for the secondary benefits (great skill points, decent skill list, etc.), more power to you, but from the fact that you took Improved Skirmish . . . well, I just don't see you having enough actions to maximize DFAness and Scoutness.

On the subject of the mouse, if you want something less houseruled, DFAs do qualify for Obtain Familiar, and I know that the feat Celestial Familiar can get you a musteval guardinal as a familiar, which is a tiny and mouse-like creature with Detect Evil (and rather a lot more) at will. They can not only talk, they have hands. They're still Tiny, though.

[Hawkflight]

Well, yes. I mostly took Scout to make me ... well, a scout. Scouting stuff and ... such. Yeah. Though my character herself is less a scout and more a noble thief. As for Skirmish, here's the thing. Slow Breath + Clinging Breath to slow down foes, have it persist for a few rounds, then move in and claw and bite 3 times, for 3 bouts of 4d6 + a bit. That's not too shabby. Though come to that, I might want to get a feat that gives me Pounce....

As for the mouse, that does sound tempting. But I've already worked up an entire backstory for the mouse that involves having been a novice Paladin who got turned into a mouse by an evil Paladin's god. And I'm not sure I want to burn 2 whole feats for it....

[Zaq]

Well, yes. I mostly took Scout to make me ... well, a scout. Scouting stuff and ... such. Yeah. Though my character herself is less a scout and more a noble thief. As for Skirmish, here's the thing. Slow Breath + Clinging Breath to slow down foes, have it persist for a few rounds, then move in and claw and bite 3 times, for 3 bouts of 4d6 + a bit. That's not too shabby. Though come to that, I might want to get a feat that gives me Pounce....

Yeah, without Pounce, you're not triggering (Improved) Skirmish and getting thee attacks in, entangle or no entangle.

Of course, one feat won't get you Pounce. You could get Travel Devotion for easy Skirmish on one encounter per day, you could blow two feats on getting Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws and Open Least Chakra: Hands (which will only work with natural weapons, but that sounds like you have that covered), or . . . well, I guess you could drop a level of Scout and take Barbarian.

[Hawkflight]

Actually, there is a feat. Lion Tribe Warrior. I'm going to see if I can use that, maybe reflavored. If not, I can homebrew a feat or see if I can adjust the Catfolk Pounce feat in order to work with all felines.

[Darth Stabber]

Actually, there is a feat. Lion Tribe Warrior. I'm going to see if I can use that, maybe reflavored. If not, I can homebrew a feat or see if I can adjust the Catfolk Pounce feat in order to work with all felines.

I can't be certain, but are you instead thinking of spirit lion totem? Because that is a barbarian ACF (trade fast movement for pounce) in complete champion. It could be a feat (my knowledge of and patience for setting specific material is limited).

[Hawkflight]

No, it's something entirely different, and a feat.

Here's what I have so far: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=299767

Though I am going to request that I can use a homebrewed template instead of Dragonborn. A toned down Dragon-Descended without the +1 LA.

[Amnestic]

Here's what I have so far: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=299767


I prefer Endure Exposure to Draconic Knowledge as your second Least Invocation, if only so you don't have to concern yourself with friendly fire. I notice that you've not taken Entangling Exhalation either. It's pretty much the bread+butter feat of a DFA. I'd try to make room for it if you can.

[Hawkflight]

I don't think friendly fire will be a problem, considering my planned tactics of stacking Clinging Breath. As for Entangling Exhalation, I see your point, but I'm pretty feat-starved. Which feat would you suggest I replace it with? (And NO I am not getting rid of Wild Cohort.)

[Kylarra]

Are you planning on obtaining weapon finesse at some point? An attack routine of +1/+1/-4 for claw/claw/bite is not going to hit much at level 5, so all the bonus skirmish damage in the world is useless to you for the majority of the time.

[Hawkflight]

Yeah, I'm thinking I'll drop Improved Skirmish for it. I just realized that I can't get it until 6th level anyways.

Also, update, my DM allowed me to use Catfolk Pounce, since it works RAI (whatever that means).

Also also, I think I'm just gonna drop the Dragonborn template. I don't want her to look like a freak of nature, and the only thing dragonborn really gives me that isn't redundant is wings.