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View Full Version : Making Shields More Effective & Interesting



Ziegander
2011-05-19, 04:30 PM
Shields don't grant a shield bonus to AC, instead they grant wearers Cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). This cover is always effective against any attacks (including ranged or reach attacks).

Unlike other cover, you cannot use the cover granted by a worn shield to make Hide checks.

The cover bonus to AC and reflex saves is equal to the normal shield bonus to AC a worn shield would grant (+1, +2, +4, etc; this includes enhancement bonuses).

Shield wearers add their cover bonus to AC/Reflex to their touch AC and may use their shields to make bull rush and overrun attempts with a bonus equal to their shield's cover bonus to AC/Reflex. Using your shield in this way doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. If you fail an overrun attempt when using a shield your opponent is unable to react and attempt to knock you prone in return.

Light and heavy shields as well as tower shields grant improved cover (double the bonuses as well as grant improved evasion) when their wearers fight defensively or use total defense.

Tower shields also grant total cover (fully denying line of effect) when their wearers fight defensively or use total defense. Unlike as normal for Tower Shields, this does not preclude making attacks (hence the option for fighting defensively).

I can't think of anything else... but I feel like there should be something else here to do with attacks of opportunity.

Glimbur
2011-05-19, 04:45 PM
Tower shields also grant total cover (fully denying line of effect) when their wearers fight defensively or use total defense.

This makes tower shields too good. Total cover is a big deal, and if one can take that while still making attacks... better look up the rules for sundering, because that shield has to go for melee or ranged attacks to work at all.


Light and heavy shields as well as tower shields grant improved cover (double the bonuses as well as grant improved evasion) when their wearers fight defensively or use total defense.

Fighting defensively just became a lot better. Improved Evasion should not be available at level 1. Possibly put a BAB requirement on this?

Hyudra
2011-05-19, 04:52 PM
What if, instead of cover, you offered a percentage based protection against attacks and possibly spell effects? - it could vary from shield to shield, starting at 15% for bucklers and topping off at say, 40% for tower shields.

Altair_the_Vexed
2011-05-19, 04:54 PM
I like the idea of adding shield bonus to Reflex saves an touch AC, it makes a kind of sense, and encourages shield use. Shields get dreadfully neglected.

In my game, a shield gives you a "shield range" above your regular AC equal to its bonus. If an attack roll falls within that shield range, then you can elect to let the shield be hit with a sunder attack (without AoO) instead of being hit yourself.
Example: Alf has a heavy shield and no armour or dex bonus. He is AC 12 with a shield range of 13-14. Bob attacks Alf and gets a 13. Alf can elect to put his shield in the way and take Bob's damage as a successful sunder attack on the shield, or he can take the damage himself.

Meanwhile, Glimbur's comments are very valid:

This makes tower shields too good. Total cover is a big deal, and if one can take that while still making attacks... better look up the rules for sundering, because that shield has to go for melee or ranged attacks to work at all.+1 to this.

Fighting defensively just became a lot better. Improved Evasion should not be available at level 1. Possibly put a BAB requirement on this?
I'd say avoid granting improved evasion through equipment use. It's there for classes that don't get much armour, not for tanks.

Veyr
2011-05-19, 04:55 PM
This makes tower shields too good. Total cover is a big deal, and if one can take that while still making attacks... better look up the rules for sundering, because that shield has to go for melee or ranged attacks to work at all.
One: the Total Cover option on Tower Shields precludes making attacks; this doesn't seem to have been changed.

Two: Tower Shields generally require a feat; that's a big deal.

Three: Tower Shields apply a penalty to your attack rolls just for having it.

All-in-all, Tower Shields are really bad. I think something like Total Cover is necessary to justify it. I have a character with a Tower Shield, and he's yet to use the Total Cover option.

Seerow
2011-05-19, 04:55 PM
This doesn't really do anything to address the biggest concern of the shield fighter: You can have defenses approaching infinite, but no matter how high they are, the opponent can just hit someone else other than you.

The ability to have your shield block line of effect to yourself (and thus negate a large number of spells) is pretty cool though. I do like that, I just think it's a two pronged problem that you can't fix just one part of.

Mulletmanalive
2011-05-19, 05:24 PM
There's nothing to stop allies claiming cover from you and there are several feats that allow you to grant your Shield bonus to allies

As the shield bonus is cover in this case, you can protect folks from spells and seriously crimp the attacks of others too.

Just throwing that out there...

Ziegander
2011-05-19, 05:28 PM
The only thing I can't figure out, and maybe it should just be a feat or line of feats, but there should be an offensive benefit from wearing a shield. Something akin to the effect one can achieve by causing an attacker to recoil off of your shield with a successful block, and then taking advantage of their disorientation in order to deal a telling blow.

Hyudra
2011-05-19, 05:33 PM
"Opponents critically fumble their attacks against you on a 1 (or 1-2, 1-3, depending on size/quality/nature of shield). If they do, they provoke an attack of opportunity."

jmelesky
2011-05-19, 05:34 PM
The only thing I can't figure out, and maybe it should just be a feat or line of feats, but there should be an offensive benefit from wearing a shield. Something akin to the effect one can achieve by causing an attacker to recoil off of your shield with a successful block, and then taking advantage of their disorientation in order to deal a telling blow.

You can use a shield as an off-hand weapon to make a shield bash. There are feats to improve that. Is that what you're looking for?

Spate
2011-05-19, 10:03 PM
Tower shields also grant total cover (fully denying line of effect) when their wearers fight defensively or use total defense. Unlike as normal for Tower Shields, this does not preclude making attacks (hence the option for fighting defensively).

Veyr, I know I am knew here, but please read the original post of discussions before posting. Glimbur is making a valid point, which is critiquing these new rules. Go back and read the proposed rules changes before assuming that Glimbur is reading rules wrongly. That will clear up discussions.

Also, this change is interesting, and possibly worth a feat. Except for the critical fumbling thing. I'm not a proponent of forcing others to do things because of low dice rolls.

Ziegander
2011-05-19, 10:17 PM
Veyr, I know I am knew here, but please read the original post of discussions before posting. Glimbur is making a valid point, which is critiquing these new rules. Go back and read the proposed rules changes before assuming that Glimbur is reading rules wrongly. That will clear up discussions.

I did edit that in after Veyr's post. I originally thought the clause about fighting defensively, but since there was confusion I added the part you quoted and bolded.

Roderick_BR
2011-05-20, 06:55 AM
"Opponents critically fumble their attacks against you on a 1 (or 1-2, 1-3, depending on size/quality/nature of shield). If they do, they provoke an attack of opportunity."

It could be made into a special action. You ready an action to make an active block/countertrike: an enemy that attacks you and misses by a margin equal to your shield bonus provokes an AoO from you. Inspired by some games where you can wait and block attacks to unbalance enemies for a clear shot.

Anyway, here's what I have:
The feat Shield Proficiency now gives Shield Ward (Player's Handbook 2, adds shield bonus to touch AC. Maybe reflex, as some people suggested) to the selected shield. It applies to the shields a class start with, as normal.
The feat Shield Specialization (Player's Handbook 2, +1 to shield's AC), and Active Shield Defense (Player's Handbook 2, fighting defensively/combat expertise attack roll penalty doesn't apply to your AoO when wielding a shield) are combined in one.
The feat Improved Shield Bash (Player's Handbook, doesn't lose shield's AC when using it to attack) also gives Agile Shield Fighter (Player's Handbook 2, pretty much TWF with weapon and shield).

This proposal makes shield fighting better to use with only 3 feats instead of 6, being that most meelers already start with the first.

Simplified, it looks like this:
SHIELD PROFICIENCY (General)
Benefit
You can use a shield and take only the standard penalties. Your shield's AC bonus applies to enemie's touch attacks.
Normal
When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield’s armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride checks, and it's AC bonus doesn't apply again touch attacks.
Special
Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

SHIELD SPECIALIZATION (General)
Prerequisite
Shield Proficiency.
Benefit
When fighting defensively and using a shield, you do not take the standard fighting defensively penalties on attacks of opportunity. When using the total defense action and a shield, you still threaten the area around you as normal. You can make attacks of opportunity with a -4 penalty.
The AC bonus granted by your shield is increased in +1.
Normal
When fighting defensively, you take the standard fighting defensively penalties on all attacks until the start of your next action, including attacks of opportunity. You can't use attacks of opportunity when using the total defense action.
Special
A fighter can select Shield Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.
This ability works on the bonuses and penalties from Combat Expertise as well.

IMPROVED SHIELD BASH
Prerequisite
Shield Proficiency.
Benefit
When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC.
When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full attack action, you take a -2 penalty on each attack. These penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons.
Normal
Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full attack action, you take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons (consider bucklers and light shields as light weapons, and large shields as one-handed weapons).
Special
A fighter can select Improved Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Barbarian MD
2011-05-21, 12:23 PM
May I humbly suggest the Shield Warrior. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192533)

DracoDei
2011-05-21, 05:14 PM
Wikipedia-like cross-indexing:
Steel Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7473262) discipline

cooperflood
2011-05-21, 05:44 PM
Here are a few feats I would make available:

1
Shield fighters aught to be able to spend a single feat and get a "Thicket of Blades" effect that is active only when wielding a shield.

2
Improved Shield Bash aught to provide Two-weapon fighting as a benefit for shields only as well. (Already mentioned by Roderick_BR)

3
Add a third feat called "Might Shield Bash" with Improved Shield Bash and the thicket of blades feat as prereqs that causes an opponent to be dazed when struck by a shield in a variety of conditions: AoO, Charge, or flanked.

Ziegander
2011-05-21, 06:04 PM
My problem with "effective shield use" as presented in 3.5 is that it always amounts to "I hit people with my shield!!" Which doesn't exactly work for me. When someone wants to fight with two weapons they pick up two weapons, not one weapon and one shield.
When someone wants to fight with one weapon and carry a shield they, attack with one weapon, not with two.

Now, that being said, there are offensive advantages to fighting with a shield, but they should in no way outweigh the defensive advantages, and they definitely shouldn't revolve around simply making your shield into an off-hand weapon.

Roderick_BR
2011-05-24, 11:19 AM
1
Shield fighters aught to be able to spend a single feat and get a "Thicket of Blades" effect that is active only when wielding a shield.

A good one. I don't know how it would work, but then again, stuff based on ToB is hard to explain.



3
Add a third feat called "Might Shield Bash" with Improved Shield Bash and the thicket of blades feat as prereqs that causes an opponent to be dazed when struck by a shield in a variety of conditions: AoO, Charge, or flanked.
[/quote]
3.0 had a Stunning Shield Bash or something, that was pretty much Stunning Fist with a shield, unlimited uses, but requires a charge attack.
This version could work fine too.

@Ziegander: Yes, the challenge is to make it be actually effective in combat.
Suggestions thus far:
1. Improved Shield Bash and TWF(shield only) in one feat.
2. Specialization (+1 AC) and the hability to rise your guard but still be able to strike back (defense action doesn't penalize AoO)
3. Ability to use defense to offensively off-set enemies. AoO against enemies that you block, as mentioned in the beggining, and ability to stun enemies, as cooperflood said. In fact, these two, coupled with the defense position thing, could make for a cool fighting style, keeping attackers back as they need to push through your defenses and you keep denying their advances (a minor battlefield control effect). In fact, I think that shield use should work better for reactions that pure offense or pure defense.

Another feat: Active Shield Block: Once every round, you can choose an opponent (as like the Dodge feat). You can choose to block one attack made from that opponent (after the starts the attack but before he rolls the attack roll). That attack is automatically blocked. It's a mix of Block Arrow (3.0, Sword & Fist) and Epic Dodge (only no-epic, and requiring a shield). If you are attacked by someone you didn't "choose", you can set that attacker as the "dodge target" as an immediate action.

PoorHobo
2011-05-24, 07:34 PM
My problem with "effective shield use" as presented in 3.5 is that it always amounts to "I hit people with my shield!!" Which doesn't exactly work for me. When someone wants to fight with two weapons they pick up two weapons, not one weapon and one shield.
When someone wants to fight with one weapon and carry a shield they, attack with one weapon, not with two.

Now, that being said, there are offensive advantages to fighting with a shield, but they should in no way outweigh the defensive advantages, and they definitely shouldn't revolve around simply making your shield into an off-hand weapon.

I agree entirely! I just don't know what to do about it. PrC's are the closest thing I've seen to anything I've ever liked.