Sublime Chord nerf for a Tier 3 World

[Urpriest]

Suppose I'm making a campaign setting that lacks Tier 2+ classes, in order to have characters who can't just throw the plot/world off the rails at whim. Bard is a very nice Tier 3 class, but part of what makes it Tier 3 is access to various splatbook materials, among them Sublime Chord. Now Sublime Chord can cast anything that a Wizard can cast just a few levels later, and has access to all of those game-breaking spells. Would it be too much of a nerf to restrict the Sublime Chord to spells from the other Tier 3 and lower casters (Dread Necro, Beguiler, Warmage mostly)?

[TroubleBrewing]

Your game, your rules!

It sounds like that would work just fine.

[Veyr]

I'd come up with a Sublime Chord spell list of appropriate things, a la Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, and just let it cast exactly as those classes do.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Why not just go straight Bard, if you're keeping the world to tier 3 and below? A Bard doesn't need SC to be tier 3, in fact, I'd say SC pushes it up a tier. It's certainly about as good as a Sorc, and a bit more versatile too, but not tier 1 versatile.

Limiting it's spells like the focused casters would also work, but I'm not familiar enough with the Sorc/Wizard list to make recommendations for your pared down spell list.

[Seerow]

If you want to go that route, I'd say make them choose one of those caster types, but give them the full spell list.


Sublime Chord casting, iirc, is spontaneous with limited spells known, so giving them a double restriction (both reduced spells list and only a subsection of that list) is an overnerf. But if all casters in your campaign are those t3 type casters, having the Sublime Chord make you more like one of those caster types is perfectly in line. You may even want to go a step further and give a few of the weaker features from the appropriate class, based on which they choose.

[Aricandor]

If I was putting a lot of time into the whole thing, I'd probably make a 7-9 spell list of bard-themed spells for them to pick from. Given it's usually a subset of sor/wiz with some healing thrown in, I can't imagine this being *too* time-consuming. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I imagine making them pick from Warmage/Beguiler/DreadN/Healer lists wouldn't be a hassle as long as you say no to Gate from the Healer. To follow the bardic theme I'd probably stick with Beguiler and Healer and say that's their spell list for 7-9.

[Jude_H]

Turning a SC to Tier 3 means turning its self-contained spellcasting to "+1 level existing spellcasting class" or adding marginal list expansion, as Lyric Thaumaturge.

If you do the spontaneous full-list caster approach, you'd probably want to keep the "spells known" limits, drop the bard spell access or severely limit access to the bard spell list.

[Urpriest]

To clarify, the intended balancing point would be that a Sublime Chord still has to pick spells known, but can pick them from three or so different classes' lists. So a Dread Necro is a better necromancer, a Beguiler is a better illusionist/enchantment person, but a Sublime Chord can do a little of both.

[TroubleBrewing]

So a Sublime Chord is the Tier 3 downgrade of a Sorcerer?

Not a bad idea.

[CapnVan]

Suzerain's Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) puts SC as +2 tiers. Since straight bard is already Tier 3, it makes the combo Tier 1 (obviously, YMMV, but it's certainly Tier 2, and I'd argue low Tier 1 with basically sorcerer casting and bardic abilities).

So I guess the obvious question is: why not just ban SC for the campaign?

[Gullintanni]

IMHO, Sublime Chord is just Sorcerer spellcasting. If your Bard isn't also DFI-happy, then they're Tier 2 classes. Nothing else a Bard can do (outside of Diplomancy) is outright broken. The Beguiler/Warmage/DN spellcasting lists are worth looking at, but while you should probably grant full access to the Beguiler's list, you should probably cherry pick a few spells out of the Warmage and DN spell lists. Nothing about Bard really screams Evocation or Necromancy. Throw in some healing, pick a spell or two per spell level out of the Warmage and DN lists and you should be alright.

With the nerf in place, you'll bring your non-DFI bard back down to a Tier 3. If they take DFI they might break into the low Tier 2 realm but I still don't seeing the character being a problem.

[Lateral]

DFI isn't really enough to push Bards past tier 3, or even much higher in tier 3- it's just damage, after all, not world-crushing power (unless you're also using WoC, and then it's just silly.)

[Greenish]

Suzerain's Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) puts SC as +2 tiers. Since straight bard is already Tier 3, it makes the combo Tier 1PrC tier system doesn't work like that. It just doesn't, but people keep repeating it even while they link to the very place where it explains how it doesn't work like that. /pet peeve

Anyhow, my first idea was just to axe SC in tier 3 and below environment. Straight bard or less powerful PrCs should work well enough.

[Gullintanni]

DFI isn't really enough to push Bards past tier 3, or even much higher in tier 3- it's just damage, after all, not world-crushing power (unless you're also using WoC, and then it's just silly.)

That's just it. If you're optimizing IC/DFI, then you're taking WoC...and if that's the case, Bard breaks melee in any semi-melee centric party. It could easily be the difference between high Tier 3 and low Tier 2.

[Lateral]

Well, but the same happens with ordinary Inspire Courage, albeit slightly less so- it's WoC that's overpowered, not DFI, especially since getting DFI requires specific races or an extra feat. Honestly, if the melees have Power Attack or damage multipliers, ordinary Inspire Courage can be better.

[Ernir]

Axe its independent spellcasting progression, have it advance Bard casting. The thing has class features.

That's just it. If you're optimizing IC/DFI, then you're taking WoC...and if that's the case, Bard breaks melee in any semi-melee centric party. It could easily be the difference between high Tier 3 and low Tier 2.
Eh, IC courage optimization is just yoinking up numbers. That doesn't allow a class to switch tiers.

[Gullintanni]

Eh, IC courage optimization is just yoinking up numbers. That doesn't allow a class to switch tiers.

Not IC by itself. It's the DFI part of it. The 13d6 per attack of extra sonic damage for the whole party. IC just allows you to Power Attack harder...valuable in its own right, and the bonus it adds multiplies...but it's DFI that's the game changer.

Tier 2 is defined as having 1 way to break the game. DFI pillages melee like vikings pillaged Europe. It's not a pretty sight to behold. Throw spellcasting for buffs on top of it and Bards effectively break combat.

[Greenish]

Axe its independent spellcasting progression, have it advance Bard casting. The thing has class features.A few songs, yeah, but it doesn't advance bardic music, and has mere 2 skillpoints per level, if my memory serves. Without it's boosted casting, it doesn't warrant the entry requirements, or even full 10 levels of length.

[Lateral]

First of all, to get it to be Sonic damage you'll need two extra feats, as opposed to no extra feats for the IC. 13d6 is, on average, 45.5 extra damage. Using all of the +13 bonus to hit for Power Attack, and assuming a 2-handed weapon, that's +39 damage- a difference of 6.5, and requiring the Bard to take two less feats. With multipliers, the damage surpasses DFI, but not every melee is likely to have that, whereas nearly all head-on melee builds use 2-handed weapons and take Power Attack, even if they're not really optimizing PA. For precision-based, 3/4 BAB characters, that +13 to hit can be exceedingly useful, and damage alone doesn't push a class up to tier 2. Honestly, I'm not seeing a case here.

[Gullintanni]

First of all, to get it to be Sonic damage you'll need two extra feats, as opposed to no extra feats for the IC. 13d6 is, on average, 45.5 extra damage. Using all of the +13 bonus to hit for Power Attack, and assuming a 2-handed weapon, that's +39 damage- a difference of 6.5, and requiring the Bard to take two less feats. With multipliers, the damage surpasses DFI, but not every melee is likely to have that, whereas nearly all head-on melee builds use 2-handed weapons and take Power Attack, even if they're not really optimizing PA. For precision-based, 3/4 BAB characters, that +13 to hit can be exceedingly useful, and damage alone doesn't push a class up to tier 2. Honestly, I'm not seeing a case here.

The problem is you don't have to choose. IIRC, you can run IC and DFI together. Combine with a TWF Rogue that's flanking, has 8 attacks, 10d6 dice of SA, and is landing every hit because of the +13 to hit they're getting out of IC and you're doing boatloads of damage.

One more point worth mentioning...the extra damage from IC is subject to DR; while Sonic damage is not. That counts for something. Not a ton, but definitely something.

[Urpriest]

The problem is you don't have to choose. IIRC, you can run IC and DFI together. Combine with a TWF Rogue that's flanking, has 8 attacks, 10d6 dice of SA, and is landing every hit because of the +13 to hit they're getting out of IC and you're doing boatloads of damage.

However, even the top chargers are Tier 4. More generally, the ability to kill everything within reach that's vulnerable to straightforward melee in a round is Tier 4. All WoC does is add that capability to other classes, and often in weakened form if they don't already have some charging capability.

[Greenish]

The problem is you don't have to choose. IIRC, you can run IC and DFI together.Yeah, but it'll take you two rounds, and you can't run both of them at full power (since that magic item, whatchamacallit, eats an immediate action and thus your swift action for inspirational boost for the next round).

And even with two rounds of buffing, you're just giving damage to the allies who don't happen to be immune to mind affecting.

Is that enough to push a strong tier 3 to tier 2? Not quite, in my opinion, since the difference between said tiers is not so much quantitative as qualitative. More damage won't bridge the cap, I think.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I think the best spell list for a Sublime Chord in a Tier 3 environment would be a combination of the Witch spell list and the Beguiler. Covers most of the areas that Bard spells are good at without adding a bunch of "I WIN" buttons.

[Greenish]

I think the best spell list for a Sublime Chord in a Tier 3 environment would be a combination of the Witch spell list and the Beguiler.Are you thinking of 3.5 Witch's or PF witch's list?

[CapnVan]

PrC tier system doesn't work like that. It just doesn't, but people keep repeating it even while they link to the very place where it explains how it doesn't work like that. /pet peeve

I do appreciate how your pet peeve managed to avoid my posted caveats. Nice work.

[Greenish]

I do appreciate how your pet peeve managed to avoid my posted caveats. Nice work.Your caveats didn't change the fact that you were using the system exactly the way it doesn't work. Noting that it might not work, when you're not using it correctly is hardly a saving grace. :smallamused:

[FMArthur]

I don't get it. It's a Sorcerer. Why would you allow one but not the other? Do you intend to let people play this fixed list as a pure Sorcerer? :smallconfused:

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Are you thinking of 3.5 Witch's or PF witch's list?

Sorry. I meant the PF Witch, which is in my opinion a solid Tier 3 caster.

I want it to be Tier 1, but they just don't get enough of the must-have spells.

[Rei_Jin]

For an alternate option, perhaps consider having Sublime Chord not gain a new list of spells, but rather, it simply turns the bardic spellcasting into similar to the Beguiler, ie, they could cast all the spells on their list spontaneously, rather than having the limitations of spells known.