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Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-05-19, 09:08 PM
I'm about to start a D&D home campaign (the edition of which is irrelevant) that pits the players against one of the demon lords of the abyss. I can't decide which one, and I was wondering if anyone could help me.

JonestheSpy
2011-05-19, 10:22 PM
Well, I love Demogogrgon, but I've always had a place in my heart for Yeenoghu. Probably because gnolls are my favorite humanoid race. Seems like a good campaign for because it's easy to start at a fairly low power level of enemies - gnolls and ghouls - and work your way up. And lots of good imagery. Hyeanas everywhere!

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-20, 01:35 AM
In before Graz'zt!

((Which also happens to be my personal choice, due to his similarity to devils.))

WitchSlayer
2011-05-20, 02:41 AM
Devils were here.

Demons are a loser.

Scoot
2011-05-20, 02:50 AM
Dispater.

Or was he a Devil. :smallannoyed:

Barring him, Graz'zt.

But he's rather.. Mature.

Orcus is fun for a generic "Big evil demon" guy.

The Rose Dragon
2011-05-20, 02:54 AM
Dispater is a devil, yes. Namely, he is the Lord of the Second.

Remmirath
2011-05-20, 04:17 AM
Demogorgon and Yeenoghu are both good.

Orcus would work well if you want a lot of undead. Juiblex is good if you want slimes, oozes, and if you don't want any complex plotting (but not so good if you do).

Basically, it depends on what kind of campaign you want. Graz'zt would be good if you want a manipulating/scheming sort. Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all come with their monster theme (and Orcus is the most powerful of the lot). Demogorgon if you want to go straight to the top in terms of demons.

Aidan305
2011-05-20, 04:35 AM
I've always enjoyed the bestial savagery and cunning of Baphomet. Fraz'ubr'lu (sp?) is pretty fun as well.

The Tygre
2011-05-20, 04:38 AM
Graz'zt! The Black Man! The Khan of Shade! God to the Witches of Salem! And all that. Because someone needs to prove that Chaotic Evil doesn't always mean "WAAAAAAAAGH! RAPE MURDER DEATH BURN KILL!" Sometimes it means founding, expanding, and ruling a multi-dimensional civilization. Don't fall into demonic stereotypes, kids!

Greymane
2011-05-20, 05:20 AM
I've never cared for demons at all. They seem like good 'grunts' to toss at your players. Anger given fangs, as it were. I prefer Devils. More avenues for intrigue.

That said, I like Graz'zt the most, (as many do), because he's not as... forgive me... chaotic, as the rest. Sure it's there, but he's able to keep three layers under his control and he's always moving outward and corrupting, rather than destroying.

One of my favorite things about him is the rumor of him falling in love with Iggwilv. I always felt demons were very capable of this, being embodiments of chaos, they should have the greatest potential to change. In my games it's not uncommon to find demons with some... mortal qualities.

Amiria
2011-05-20, 05:33 AM
Pazuzu ! Pazuzu ! Pazuzu !

Similar to Graz'zt, he's also not a mindless brute "hell-bent" on chaos and destruction. He's more interested in the material plane and corrupting mortals.

hamishspence
2011-05-20, 06:27 AM
And in 4E, his talent for corruption is pretty exceptional- in Demonomicon, we find out one of his most notable corruptions:

the corruption of Asmodeus.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-05-20, 10:33 AM
Demogorgon and Yeenoghu are both good.

Orcus would work well if you want a lot of undead. Juiblex is good if you want slimes, oozes, and if you don't want any complex plotting (but not so good if you do).

Basically, it depends on what kind of campaign you want. Graz'zt would be good if you want a manipulating/scheming sort. Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all come with their monster theme (and Orcus is the most powerful of the lot). Demogorgon if you want to go straight to the top in terms of demons. I think I'll do Yeenoghu, Demogorgon or Orcus.



I've never cared for demons at all. They seem like good 'grunts' to toss at your players. Anger given fangs, as it were. I prefer Devils. More avenues for intrigue.

That said, I like Graz'zt the most, (as many do), because he's not as... forgive me... chaotic, as the rest. Sure it's there, but he's able to keep three layers under his control and he's always moving outward and corrupting, rather than destroying.

One of my favorite things about him is the rumor of him falling in love with Iggwilv. I always felt demons were very capable of this, being embodiments of chaos, they should have the greatest potential to change. In my games it's not uncommon to find demons with some... mortal qualities.I would do this, but my players have no patience for intrigue. They want to kill things. They want to have sex with barmaids. They want to kill things again.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-05-20, 10:48 AM
I would do this, but my players have no patience for intrigue. They want to kill things. They want to have sex with barmaids. They want to kill things again.

Maybe Malcanthet then? She's big on those kinds of things, though she'll likely want a little BDSM tossed in for good measure.

If you're playing Pathfinder, then look at Nocticula or her brother Socothbenoth.

Goober4473
2011-05-20, 11:28 AM
I've always liked Demogorgon for his two heads that hate each other but that will die if they kill the other one. That way, you can have two competing schemes going on, but one final fight with the baddie.

arguskos
2011-05-20, 12:33 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/Avatars/grazztandiggwilv.gif

I wonder who my favorite could possibly be.... :smallcool:
If you don't recognize that image, it's Graz'zt and Iggwilv.

dsmiles
2011-05-20, 12:44 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/Avatars/grazztandiggwilv.gif

I wonder who my favorite could possibly be.... :smallcool:
You and about 98% of the Playground. :smallamused:

Geigan
2011-05-20, 02:21 PM
I personally prefer Our Dark Lord Snuggles.

CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD LORD!! YOUR BLOOD FOR HIS MILK BOWL!! YOUR INTESTINES FOR HIS YARN BALL!!

arguskos
2011-05-20, 02:48 PM
You and about 98% of the Playground. :smallamused:
But only I AM the Dark Prince from time to time. Like right now. :smallamused:

Eldan
2011-05-20, 02:53 PM
Orcus has, of course, the most awesome adventures to his name. Namely, The Modron March and Dead Gods.

However, Graz'zt is cool.

By the way, interesting fact: Planes of Chaos (I got's it! Yes, precious!) describes him as rather sedate in his manners and clothing, prefering simple white robes.

ken-do-nim
2011-05-20, 02:58 PM
Yeenoghu, because I like to pronounce his name as "You-know-who". That, and flails are cool.

TheGeckoKing
2011-05-20, 03:11 PM
I guess only I'm a Dagon fan. I mean, he doesn't just eat people! He sings too!

dsmiles
2011-05-20, 03:15 PM
I bet Graz'zt can sing. Huge Charisma = great untrained Perform (Singing) check. :smallwink:

TheGeckoKing
2011-05-20, 03:20 PM
I bet Graz'zt can sing. Huge Charisma = great untrained Perform (Singing) check. :smallwink:

That is very true. Problem is, Graz'zt reminds me of the Devils a lot. And I can't stand the D&D Devils most of the time, from the useless Lemures to that Villain Sue at the top of the accursed hierarchy.

Urpriest
2011-05-20, 03:23 PM
I guess only I'm a Dagon fan. I mean, he doesn't just eat people! He sings too!

Dagon for the win, mate. Dude is pretty much the only Obryth to have a meaningful effect on the world anymore. Plus, lots of Lovecraftian charisma.

Eldan
2011-05-20, 03:29 PM
Sadly, Hydra is imprisoned in Elysium.

Mordokai
2011-05-20, 03:44 PM
I bet Graz'zt can sing. Huge Charisma = great untrained Perform (Singing) check. :smallwink:

Pretty much every demon lord has huge charisma. Doesn't mean they can sing well :smalltongue: I mean, I dread from hearing Aameul or Hetradiah singing. *shivers*

I'll go with Dagon as well. Dude's just cool in that badass way. Malcanthet's cool too. I mean, bitch's the only medium demon lord among all the huge and bigger monstrosities and she still managed to work herself out well enough. Plus, she's very much demonic, without all the standard demon crap.

Plus, she basically a succubus on steroids. That can't be bad :smallbiggrin:

The_Snark
2011-05-20, 04:29 PM
If you want a subtle manipulator, I'd pick Dagon over Grazz't. Grazz't is... well, to be honest, he feels like kind of a wannabe devil. I hate to perpetuate the stereotype that demons have to be brutes, but in this case it really does seem like he's trying to play the exact same role that a devil would. He's not a bad villain per se, but I can't think of any situation in which I wouldn't rather use one of the Nine. If he were recreated as a mercurial trickster-figure I'd probably like him more.

Dagon, on the other hand, is his own thing. Very cryptic and unknowable, which is cool but can make him a little hard to use in play.

If you want less subtle, I'd go for OBOX-OB, LORD OF VERMIN, a fallen Prince of Demons from ages past. Merely looking at him sears his visage into your brain so hard you'll never sleep again without horrible, horrible nightmares; weak minds go mad and die rather than face what's waiting for them in their dreams. His ekolid children are a chittering swarm of fast-moving horrors, constantly devouring one another and anything that comes into contact with them; once introduced to the Material Plane, they reproduce with terrifying rapidity. If their spread is unchecked, they will eventually drag this world into the Abyss, where their progenitor will consume it to fuel his return to the throne of the Abyss.

If you like scorpion cults and tides of insectoid death, Obox-ob is for you.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-05-20, 04:51 PM
If you want a subtle manipulator, I'd pick Dagon over Grazz't. Grazz't is... well, to be honest, he feels like kind of a wannabe devil. I hate to perpetuate the stereotype that demons have to be brutes, but in this case it really does seem like he's trying to play the exact same role that a devil would. He's not a bad villain per se, but I can't think of any situation in which I wouldn't rather use one of the Nine. If he were recreated as a mercurial trickster-figure I'd probably like him more.

Dagon, on the other hand, is his own thing. Very cryptic and unknowable, which is cool but can make him a little hard to use in play.

If you want less subtle, I'd go for OBOX-OB, LORD OF VERMIN, a fallen Prince of Demons from ages past. Merely looking at him sears his visage into your brain so hard you'll never sleep again without horrible, horrible nightmares; weak minds go mad and die rather than face what's waiting for them in their dreams. His ekolid children are a chittering swarm of fast-moving horrors, constantly devouring one another and anything that comes into contact with them; once introduced to the Material Plane, they reproduce with terrifying rapidity. If their spread is unchecked, they will eventually drag this world into the Abyss, where their progenitor will consume it to fuel his return to the throne of the Abyss.

If you like scorpion cults and tides of insectoid death, Obox-ob is for you.

I'm of a similar mind to The Snark here. I like my demon lords to be primal, unscrutable horrors who's sheer power can quail the mightiest of heroes at the thought of thwarting them on the off chance of drawing their terrible gaze. If I want intrigue and politic-like machinations then I turn to devils, or Graz'zt if devils aren't suitable for some reason. If I want sheer insanity, there's the Far Realm. But if I want primal evil, I always think demons.

Though, I can't just pick one. My top three (in no particular order) are Demogorgon (the first tanari who survived in the Abyss despite being cast-off as a twisted newborn and rose to become the Prince of Demons ((like a really FUBARed under-dog story)) ), Dagon (perhaps the oldest of the obyrinths, his salty realm in Shadowsea has known and forgotten more obyrinth nightmares and lost horrors then then a chichimec has feathers), and Obox-Ob the original Prince of Demons and the only being that Demogorgon actually fears. It took tactical mastery, over-whelming power, and utterly perfect timing to dethrone Obox-Ob from his throne and even then it didn't kill him. He's still lurks on his terrifying layer, waiting for revenge to come to him with his demonically-insect-like legions.

Eldan
2011-05-20, 05:36 PM
I forgot Pale Night. Pale Night's cool too. Plus, she could be Graz'zts mother.

Aron Times
2011-05-20, 06:00 PM
Graz'zt.
Anyone who disagrees is a double-agent of Graz'zt.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-05-20, 06:23 PM
Anyone who disagrees is a double-agent of Graz'zt.

I deny this statement. Graz'zt is but a petty pretender to the crown of Demogorgon. His shattered shell will be but one among many when Ahmon-Ibor shifts his dread gaze to that foul stain on the Abyss. :smalltongue:

dsmiles
2011-05-20, 06:25 PM
I deny this statement. Graz'zt is but a petty pretender to the crown of Demogorgon. His shattered shell will be but one among many when Ahmon-Ibor shifts his attention to him. :smalltongue:

See? Double agent of Graz'zt! :smalltongue:

Callos_DeTerran
2011-05-20, 06:26 PM
See? Double agent of Graz'zt! :smalltongue:

You wish. :smalltongue:

TheGeckoKing
2011-05-20, 06:48 PM
Anyone who disagrees is a double-agent of Graz'zt.

Father Dagon would disagree, but he is too busy devouring the souls of your relatives. :smalltongue:

JonestheSpy
2011-05-20, 07:23 PM
I've never cared for demons at all. They seem like good 'grunts' to toss at your players. Anger given fangs, as it were. I prefer Devils. More avenues for intrigue.


I've always hated this interpretation. There's no reason why chaos can't be subtle, slowly corrupting, etc. It just seems like lack of imagination by later edition writers. Heck, the first big published campaign by TSR led to a confrontation with the scheming demon Lolth, who was definitely not a hack-n-slash brute.

Akal Saris
2011-05-20, 09:11 PM
Kostchtchie is one of the best demon lords of all time! Of All time!

(and I even got his name right the first time!)

Greymane
2011-05-20, 10:53 PM
I've always hated this interpretation. There's no reason why chaos can't be subtle, slowly corrupting, etc. It just seems like lack of imagination by later edition writers. Heck, the first big published campaign by TSR led to a confrontation with the scheming demon Lolth, who was definitely not a hack-n-slash brute.

And I like to run my demons that way, but with how they're portrayed in the books these days, I feel like using them for anything other than whimsical killing machines seems a little off-beat.

Chaos CAN be subtle. I love using Succubi and Glabrezu for that very reason, but it always seems that most long-term schemes for souls should fall into the demesne of Devils, rather than Demons.

That way, you have a threat on a large-scale with the Devils working in tandem with eachother, whereas Demons tend to work alone.

Gralamin
2011-05-21, 12:18 AM
Graz'zt is awesome, I believe one edition (might of been 4e) actually made him a devil: Similar to the idea of how Asmodeus would rather rule hell then serve in heaven, he would rather rule the Abyss then serve in Hell.

Other then Graz'zt, I am a fan of Pale Night, Dagon, and Demigorgon.

Yora
2011-05-21, 06:00 AM
In before Graz'zt!
Graz'zt! :smallamused:

I forgot Pale Night. Pale Night's cool too. Plus, she could be Graz'zts mother.
Exactly my thought. :smallbiggrin:

Waker
2011-05-21, 09:32 AM
My favorite would be a toss-up between Melcanthet and Dagon.
Mel has the whole tempter and schemer theme going for her, able to play off many of the demon princes against each other. Her mortal agents can run a complex web of intrigue for the party to stumble across. Though if the party is of a more straightforward nature you can always have them attacked in the night by Stripper Assassins. The party will have a difficult time telling who they must trust as many of Mel's servants can shapeshift or dominate.
Dagon on the other hand has that ancient evil going for him. While the other demon princes are millenia old, Dagon predates the creation of the mortal races themselves. He is an utterly alien being whose very appearance drives weak-hearted adventurers mad. And even if you somehow brave your way into his demesne, catching him off guard will not be easy if you recall his prophetic abilities. His servants combine the worst features of both classical demons and Lovecraftian horrors.

Aron Times
2011-05-21, 11:00 AM
Lots of Graz'zt double agents in this thread...

magellan
2011-05-21, 12:06 PM
I forgot Pale Night. Pale Night's cool too. Plus, she could be Graz'zts mother.

She also dresses cooler than Graz'zt and is the superior interior decorator!

Mordokai
2011-05-21, 01:05 PM
So what you're saying is, Graz'zt is totally a momma's boy? :smalltongue:

Tvtyrant
2011-05-21, 01:09 PM
Demogorgon, Jubilex, and Dagon. What? I like tentacles on my bad guys!

Of all of the fiends though my favorite is Mephistopheles; he always appears to me as the mad scientist of the planes. I generally stat him as having double casting and then more minor magic items then god; ioun stones floating around his head and rings of thuergy on his fingers.

jguy
2011-05-21, 02:21 PM
I vote Yeenoghu but read up on his 4th Edition incarnation where he becomes a pure badass again. A full fledged Demon Prince once again and the chief deity of gnolls, he is the Beast of Butchery. Said that if he wasn't so chaotic and savage, he would have conquered the likes of Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt long ago.

The benefit of using Yeenoghu is that you have a ready built race of enemies to use with them, the very strong Gnolls. While they can be a very unsubtle race, there is nothing wrong with an enemy you don't have to have moral debates about killing.

TerrickTerran
2011-05-21, 03:43 PM
Jubilex. I just like oozes and slimes, so the master of them all would have to be my favorite. Orcus would be #2.

Crafty Cultist
2011-05-21, 03:55 PM
Personally, I think demogorgon is under-represented here. He can seem generic if you just think of him as the king of demons and nothing beyond that.

I think of him as something of a mad scientist, lurking in the darkness of his citadel, developing new constructs and magic to use against his enemies.

GenericFighter
2011-05-21, 11:11 PM
Since Temple of Elemental Evil I've been partial to Zuggtmoy. At the least, she'd make your players more conscientious about keeping their stuff clean.

"Say, you haven't washed your socks in the past month, have you? Roll for initiative!"

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-05-21, 11:51 PM
Since Temple of Elemental Evil I've been partial to Zuggtmoy. At the least, she'd make your players more conscientious about keeping their stuff clean.

"Say, you haven't washed your socks in the past month, have you? Roll for initiative!"

I just looked her up and I love the idea so much I'm going to use her!

Urpriest
2011-05-21, 11:51 PM
Kostchtchie is one of the best demon lords of all time! Of All time!

(and I even got his name right the first time!)

Eh, I like Kostchtchie for the same reason I like Fraz-Urb'luu, but I like them both as comedy demon princes, not as serious villains. Fraz-Urb'luu has the whole prank caller thing going, and Kostchtchie has given us one of the only two prestige classes with Gender: Male as a prereq. And you know how fond I am of the other one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171293&highlight=eunuch)...

Zaydos
2011-05-22, 12:33 AM
I'd say Demogorgon. 1) Bestial power-house. 2) Political savvy to remain the Prince of Demons. Power doesn't do that, he out plots them. 3) Let's you still use Dagon as Dagon works as his advisor/ally/sort of vassal.

Otherwise I'd go with Dagon or one of the (I think 3) Queens of the Succubi that there have been over the editions.

Otherworld Odd
2011-05-22, 02:31 AM
Oublivae. >.>. I like her design, what.

Clovis
2011-05-23, 07:49 AM
I'm very much surprised that noone has mentioned Lolth yet... A fallen god becoming a demon lord and regaining divinity and being a demon lord. What's not to like?

mint
2011-05-23, 08:11 AM
Graz'zt, because he is so dreamy.
I would totally change alignment for him.

Tiki Snakes
2011-05-23, 09:41 AM
If we're counting her as a demon-lord, then I'll second Lolth. At least, most incarnations of her.

Dagon is also pretty awesome, and the alliance with Demogorgon only adds to that.

There's another that I can't recall the name of, that I enjoyed in the 4e Demonomicon. Will scratch the book up and see if I can't remember who.

hamishspence
2011-05-23, 09:56 AM
The 4E Demonomicon ones included:

Pazuzu
Oublivae
Kostchtchie
Anthraxus

There might be others, but these four are the ones I can recall offhand.

SleepyShadow
2011-05-23, 10:05 AM
Oh, come on, guys. Graz'zt is a lady-killer, Orcus has the best toys, and Demogorgon can argue with himself, but have we forgotten who was the leading demoness in one of the best adventures ever written?

Zuggtmoy! Lady of Fungi! The star of the classic 'Temple of Elemental Evil'!

It's hard to argue with something like that. :smallcool:

Eldan
2011-05-23, 01:55 PM
The 4E Demonomicon ones included:

Pazuzu
Oublivae
Kostchtchie
Anthraxus

There might be others, but these four are the ones I can recall offhand.

Anthraxus ain't a demon. He's a 'loth. He once was pretty much the 'loth, actually.

And if they made him a Tanar'ri? I'm not listening.

Yora
2011-05-23, 01:57 PM
I don't think 4E MotPs is for you at all. :smallbiggrin:

It's a very nice book describing a new cosmilogy. But the only similarities with planescape are in the names.

Eldan
2011-05-23, 01:59 PM
I don't think 4E MotPs is for you at all. :smallbiggrin:

It's a very nice book describing a new cosmilogy. But the only similarities with planescape are in the names.

LALALALALA.

Nice weather today, isn't it? :smallsmile:

Aidan305
2011-05-23, 02:16 PM
I'm very much surprised that noone has mentioned Lolth yet... A fallen god becoming a demon lord and regaining divinity and being a demon lord. What's not to like?

I'll grant you that it's impressive, but she really got outdone by Orcus. I mean, what other deity could go on a killing spree after they had been murdered.

Eldan
2011-05-23, 02:24 PM
Yeah. He does the falling and coming back part much more impressively.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-05-23, 09:02 PM
Zuggtmoy! Lady of Fungi! The star of the classic 'Temple of Elemental Evil'!

It's hard to argue with something like that. :smallcool:

I've already started the campaign and I'm using Zuggtmoy as a long-term adversary.

The (1st level) heroes have broken into a ruined keep and are currently fighting insane fungus cultists and myconids. Everyone is having A LOT of fun.

Tiki Snakes
2011-05-23, 09:14 PM
I do believe it was Oublivae I was thinking of, actually.

Though I can't help but think that it sounds like pig latin, which would make her real name Voubli? Kind of loses something. :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2011-05-23, 09:17 PM
I do believe it was Oublivae I was thinking of, actually.

Though I can't help but think that it sounds like pig latin, which would make her real name Voubli? Kind of loses something. :smallsmile:

Maybe it's a play on "oublier?" (French. Non-conjugated form of "forget.")

Eldan
2011-05-24, 11:38 AM
Or "Oblivion". Which, I guess, has similar roots.

Tiki Snakes
2011-05-24, 03:41 PM
Or Oubliette. Who knows? Not me, for one. Cool design, though, and what I remember of her concept and backstory was pretty interesting.

Conversely, Orcus vs Lolth, I really just don't feel the Orcus thing. Perhaps he did have some awesome modules, but I suspect that the awesome bits had little to do with it being Orcus rather than some other entity.

He's really just yet another undead-focused identikit villain, and of the D&D ones, perhaps the least interesting. Lolth in comparison has a much more unique identity, theme and outlook. Though she can be cringe-inducingly bad if DMed the wrong way.

Eldan
2011-05-24, 04:28 PM
Another word with the same roots, I think. You throw something in and then forget about it.

Honestly, my love for him mainly comes from The Great Modron March/Dead Gods, which I thought was an awesome adventure path if done right.