Unsquishifying a Shadowcaster

[Zaq]

So, I'm probably going to be playing a level 6 Shadowcaster soon. I've got a few fun tricks for when I run out of relevant mysteries, but unfortunately, most of them don't afford me the luxury of "you guys have fun with the rampaging ogre. If you need me, I'll be waaaaaay over here." The Shadowcaster doesn't have too many solid defensive mysteries (especially not with the opportunity cost of taking them), and since none of the ones they do have come even CLOSE to lasting all day (or, for that matter, being available more than 1/day . . . I'm playing a Shadowcaster for the challenge of it, but I've gotta be well cognizant of their limitations), I'll need a little more than my built-in casting to make myself an unappealing target for when the fan is hit.

I'm strongly contemplating taking the Dark template for HiPS (can't hit what you can't see, right?), or perhaps a level in Warlock for the Darkness/Blend Into Shadows pseudo-HiPS trick (thematically appropriate, I daresay). Unfortunately, each of those would lose me a caster level, and with the golden level 7 (which, of course, DOUBLES my mysteries per day) so close, that's a reeeeeeally hard choice to make. Still, being unseeable is, in my experience, a very good way of staying out of the thick of things.

I'm also considering taking Still Mystery as my path-based bonus feat, then dropping a feat on light armor proficiency. Even just a +1 chain shirt (easily affordable at level 6) is a nontrivial +5 AC. Toss on a +1 darkwood heavy shield (gotta love no check penalty, and Still Mystery obviates the spell failure) and I'm sitting at 18 + DEX AC, which, while not exactly godly, is far and away better than what I'd have otherwise. Hell, that's better than the Steel Shadows mystery, and that'd only last for an hour a day. Do you think that's enough? Obviously, each game is different and there's no standard for "enough" defenses (this isn't 4e, after all, what with its rigidly defined standard numbers-by-level), but do you think it'd help keep me alive even if I need to deliver the occasional melee or near-melee attack?

What other options are there? I can possibly spare one feat, and I'd be willing to listen to losing a level if you give me a really good reason, but if we can stick to cheap items, that'd be pretty cool. Thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

Wand of Invisibility or similar is the solution here. Keep the 6 levels of shadowcaster, and lose the armor. What is the rest of the party made of?

[Tvtyrant]

1. Flicker is the best defensive mystery and one of the best defensive anythings, giving you a fifty percent chance to dodge any attack and completely preventing full attacks. Your at a level where the latter part is extremely useful.

2. Your very close to getting Bolster, which grants you 5 HP per HD for 10/level. 35 hit points when you get it, up to 75 for life.

3. Dancing Shadows gives yourself total concealment. Added to Flicker and you are almost certain to not get hit.

4. You can always go into Child of Night, which loses you 1 CL for permanent total concealment and some other effects.

5. Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis grants you the dark template for 10 minutes a day for 10,000 GP, or continuous for 20,000.

Actually a lot of the abilities listed can be gained by shadowcaster items. Flicker is the big exception; if you can convince your DM to let you craft a continuous item of Flicker at your CL it is worth ANY price. You essentially get free Dimension Door as a better ability then a Blink Dogs.

[Pie Guy]

There is the collar of Umbral Metamorphoses, which gives you the dark template for ten minutes per day, or whenever it's equipped for more gold.
Edit: Ninja!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't need to spend a feat on armor proficiency if you get a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, or even just Masterwork Studded Leather, since with no armor check penalty there's no drawback for nonproficiency.


Edit: I just noticed something (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight):
"All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it."

[Zaq]

Wand of Invisibility or similar is the solution here. Keep the 6 levels of shadowcaster, and lose the armor. What is the rest of the party made of?

No UMD in-class, and Invisibility breaks when I attack. No idea what the rest of the party's going to be.


1. Flicker is the best defensive mystery and one of the best defensive anythings, giving you a fifty percent chance to dodge any attack and completely preventing full attacks. You're at a level where the latter part is extremely useful.

2. You're very close to getting Bolster, which grants you 5 HP per HD for 10/level. 35 hit points when you get it, up to 75 for life.

3. Dancing Shadows gives yourself total concealment. Added to Flicker and you are almost certain to not get hit.

4. You can always go into Child of Night, which loses you 1 CL for permanent total concealment and some other effects.

5. Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis grants you the dark template for 10 minutes a day for 10,000 GP, or continuous for 20,000.

1) Flicker's very good, but it only lasts for one combat a day, it eats one of my two precious paths, and the other two mysteries are even more situational than most mysteries are.

2) Yeah, there are a lot of good Initiate mysteries. Level 7 is where the fun really seems to start for Shadowcasters. Bolster, unfortunately, is three or four down the list, though if the game goes on long enough I might see if I can get it in wand or staff form.

3) Dancing Shadows is pretty sweet, but again, I'm not certain if it's worth one of my two paths (Dark Terrain is almost certainly locked in, and then it's competing with Touch of Twilight and Night's Long Fingers). See also the 1/day limitation. At my level, mysteries alone probably aren't enough to keep me safe. The Cloak of Shadows path is probably the best bet for that, just because all three of them provide decent defense in some regard or another.

4) Child of Night is pretty cool, but if I'm going to lose a caster level, I'd prefer to get the payoff now, rather than in a few levels.

5) That was one of my first ideas, but the price tag is tough for level 6 WBL (it'd take 10k out of my 13k . . . ouch)

Sorry if it feels like I'm just being negative, but unfortunately, I've already thought of (and rejected) a lot of these. This might be trickier than I thought. I do appreciate the ideas, though, even if I'm not very likely to use many of 'em.

EDIT:

You don't need to spend a feat on armor proficiency if you get a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, or even just Masterwork Studded Leather, since with no armor check penalty there's no drawback for nonproficiency.


Edit: I just noticed something (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight):
"All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it."

ToM, pg. 111/112: "You are proficient with all simple weapons. You are not proficient with any type of armor or shield." Specific overrides general, so a non-Monk/Wizard/Sorcerer class printed after the PHB that says it's not proficient with armor isn't proficient with armor. Good catch on the mithral, though. Not as cheap as I'd like, but not bad, either.

[RaggedAngel]

It's a bit cheesy, but the Whisper Gnome is a good choice for a Shadowcaster. The hit to Cha hurts, but to balance that out you get a bonus to Dex and Con, plus you're small, making you a good deal less squishy. You lose strength, too, but that should never be a big problem on a full caster (even a ToM "full caster" :smallsigh:). So for 2 points of a secondary casting stat you gain +2 AC, +1 hit point per level, +1 to your Reflex and Fort saves, a +8 to Hide, a +4 to Move Silently, and the usual gnomish spell-likes with Silence thrown in for fun.

...however, I'm fairly sure you know all of that, as you are rather good at PO. Is your race locked in to anything in paticular?

[Zaq]

It's a bit cheesy, but the Whisper Gnome is a good choice for a Shadowcaster. The hit to Cha hurts, but to balance that out you get a bonus to Dex and Con, plus you're small, making you a good deal less squishy. You lose strength, too, but that should never be a big problem on a full caster (even a ToM "full caster" :smallsigh:). So for 2 points of a secondary casting stat you gain +2 AC, +1 hit point per level, +1 to your Reflex and Fort saves, a +8 to Hide, a +4 to Move Silently, and the usual gnomish spell-likes with Silence thrown in for fun.

...however, I'm fairly sure you know all of that, as you are rather good at PO. Is your race locked in to anything in paticular?

Whisper gnome is a good choice, but yes, I am locked into being an azurin. One of the tricks I'm using involves some self-inflicted stat damage, so a bonus feat for Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest and a free point of essentia to load it with is very nice indeed.

Thank you for the compliment, though. Still, it's always nice to hear ideas from different angles. Just because you know about something doesn't mean you thought of it, after all.

Right now, it looks like the available resources are one, maybe two feats, some gold (level 6 WBL is 13k, but I'd like to have some left over for the basics, plus a few doodads and trinkets from the MIC), and possibly one class level if you give me a really good argument.

[gorfnab]

You know I just happen to have written a Shadowcaster Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610.0) recently.

The feat Darkstalker will really help keep you unnoticed (especially with Whisper Gnome and/or Dark Creature Template).

[Tvtyrant]

I got an idea; Novice Crown of Shadow Hands; Child of Shadows stance. You get total concealment on any turn you move at least 10 ft. in. You activate it each morning and spend the rest of the day in the stance being in full concealment. Its also 1,500 GP and 120 XP to make, looking for an equivalent costing items price right now.

I think it would cost 2,200 to buy it rather then make it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I got an idea; Novice Crown of Shadow Hands; Child of Shadows stance. You get total concealment on any turn you move at least 10 ft. in. You activate it each morning and spend the rest of the day in the stance being in full concealment. Its also 1,500 GP and 120 XP to make, looking for an equivalent costing items price right now.

I think it would cost 2,200 to buy it rather then make it.

Crafting costs are always 1/2 base value in gp cost, and 1/25 base value in xp cost. 120 xp x 25 = 3,000 base price; 1,500 gp x 2 = 3,000 base price; the cost to buy one rather than craft it would be 3,000 gp.

[Tvtyrant]

Crafting costs are always 1/2 base value in gp cost, and 1/25 base value in xp cost. 120 xp x 25 = 3,000 base price; 1,500 gp x 2 = 3,000 base price; the cost to buy one rather than craft it would be 3,000 gp.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. I ended up just taking the price of a scroll and comparing it to the cost; it turned out wonky. I still think its a good suggestion in this case though, 3000 GP for full concealment every round.

[Cieyrin]

I've been thinking that mixing together Warlock and Shadowcaster is an excellent way to give yourself some staying power while mixing in some power boosts via mysteries when you need it. It's too bad you aren't using Ari Marmell's Shadowcaster fix, as that'd also help a bit in allowing you to work that much better.

I do recommend that, regardless of whether the fix is in place or not, that you heavily consider Favored Mystery and Shadow Cast, as well as Still Mystery for your track bonus feat. Still obviates you caring at all about armor killing your mysteries, especially with mysteries that are cast as spells. Shadow Cast makes it more likely that no one will touch you when you do cast a mystery, since you won't have to drop your defenses while your shadow deals with it. Finally, a feature of Favored Mystery that people seem to miss is that, besides upgrading a mystery to the next category, it also gets you extra uses. Want to be able to get off Killing Eyes twice a day before 7th and as a spell-like? Make it your Favored Mystery! My basis for the upgrade is via the Shadowcaster itself, given its basis of mystery usage is based on how it's cast (as spell: 1/day; as spell-like: 2/day; as supernatural: 3/day), which Favored Mystery gets you to early.

[peacenlove]

Not really a defense but with charisma casting and intimidate as a class skill you can pick up the Imperious command feat and the fearsome armor enchant from Drow of the Underdark, as well as spend 2 skill points for the Never outnumbered skill trick. Cowered opponents can't hit you. Not recommended vs undead but then again shadowcaster is crippled vs them.

A Smoking weapon is a +1 enchantment that is found in Lords of darkness and provides you with a constant stinking cloud effect. 8k however so might be outside your price range.
Anklets of translocation and healing belt (1.2k and 750 gp respectively) provide out of melee teleportation and in combat healing as a swift action.

At 6th level AC is still relevant so you can't go wrong with a mithril large shield (or maybe a lighter equivalent). Still mystery lets you ignore ASF opening a wider array of armors for you.

The black candle fundamental (essentially darkness) grants 20% concealment to creatures who rely on sight. That will be handy until you scrape some money for reliable concealment. Also a wand of steel shadows obviates the need for a shield until you get a better one.

[Zaq]

You know I just happen to have written a Shadowcaster Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610.0) recently.

The feat Darkstalker will really help keep you unnoticed (especially with Whisper Gnome and/or Dark Creature Template.

Yup. If I go hidey, I'm definitely taking Darkstalker.


I got an idea; Novice Crown of Shadow Hands; Child of Shadows stance. You get total concealment on any turn you move at least 10 ft. in. You activate it each morning and spend the rest of the day in the stance being in full concealment. Its also 1,500 GP and 120 XP to make, looking for an equivalent costing items price right now.

I think it would cost 2,200 to buy it rather then make it.

Hmmm. Interesting idea. I'd rather stay away from custom items (and it's only concealment, not full concealment, but still, nice), but it's a very good thought. I might ask about it anyway, just because it is very thematically appropriate.


I've been thinking that mixing together Warlock and Shadowcaster is an excellent way to give yourself some staying power while mixing in some power boosts via mysteries when you need it. It's too bad you aren't using Ari Marmell's Shadowcaster fix, as that'd also help a bit in allowing you to work that much better.

I do recommend that, regardless of whether the fix is in place or not, that you heavily consider Favored Mystery and Shadow Cast, as well as Still Mystery for your track bonus feat. Still obviates you caring at all about armor killing your mysteries, especially with mysteries that are cast as spells. Shadow Cast makes it more likely that no one will touch you when you do cast a mystery, since you won't have to drop your defenses while your shadow deals with it. Finally, a feature of Favored Mystery that people seem to miss is that, besides upgrading a mystery to the next category, it also gets you extra uses. Want to be able to get off Killing Eyes twice a day before 7th and as a spell-like? Make it your Favored Mystery! My basis for the upgrade is via the Shadowcaster itself, given its basis of mystery usage is based on how it's cast (as spell: 1/day; as spell-like: 2/day; as supernatural: 3/day), which Favored Mystery gets you to early.

While you are correct on Favored Mystery, I just don't have enough high-level feat slots to take it, since you have to know the mystery when you take FM. I'd be most likely to get it as my path-based bonus feat, which means that it'd be one of my first-level mysteries. Warlock is fun and is still possibly on the table as a one-level dip, but I'm leaning strongly towards either straight Shadowcaster or the Dark template.


Not really a defense but with charisma casting and intimidate as a class skill you can pick up the Imperious command feat and the fearsome armor enchant from Drow of the Underdark, as well as spend 2 skill points for the Never outnumbered skill trick. Cowered opponents can't hit you. Not recommended vs undead but then again shadowcaster is crippled vs them.

A Smoking weapon is a +1 enchantment that is found in Lords of darkness and provides you with a constant stinking cloud effect. 8k however so might be outside your price range.
Anklets of translocation and healing belt (1.2k and 750 gp respectively) provide out of melee teleportation and in combat healing as a swift action.

At 6th level AC is still relevant so you can't go wrong with a mithril large shield (or maybe a lighter equivalent). Still mystery lets you ignore ASF opening a wider array of armors for you.

The black candle fundamental (essentially darkness) grants 20% concealment to creatures who rely on sight. That will be handy until you scrape some money for reliable concealment. Also a wand of steel shadows obviates the need for a shield until you get a better one.

Glad to see that someone agrees with many of my ideas. I had already planned on taking Imperious Command (well, it was on the short list, at least, if not definite). Fearsome Armor is a good thought; I had forgotten about it. That may be just what I'm looking for to make enemies not want to end up too close to me . . . it's not cheap, but it very well may be worth it. I'm almost certainly going to get some armor and a shield with 0 ACP, so we're on the same page there.

Right now, the big toss-up is between Improved Familiar and Imperious Command for my feat at 6th. Having a Dark air elemental (100' fly speed, Spring Attack for delivering touch mysteries, HiPS, hands, can speak . . . not bad) or some other neat thing (any suggestions? Most of the good things require CL 7, unfortunately) is very tempting, but Imperious Command is also sexy. Unfortunately, IC is very much an up-close-and-personal affair, but I suppose it does give me a way of dealing with folks who decide to get all up in my shadowy grill.

Hmmm. So close. I can feel myself being very close to finishing this character.

[Lans]

With Black Candle cast it on a small pebble with a string on it, and squeeze it tightly in your hand to block LoE when your not being attacked.

Drop it when an enemy makes his attack. That should help to min/max its effects.

Use the Ink mystery for extra money.