Increasing casters BAB

[Darth_Versity]

Im making a beguiler character for an upcoming game, but I was trying to come up with a way to have him contribute in melee from time to time as his background is that he's a pirate captain (he's the decendant of an NPC villain from a previous campaign)

Now i'd like to be able to do the whole swashbuckling pirate thing at least once per day, but im having trouble finding a way to get the attack bonus up within just a couple of rounds.

Currently im planning to use a Skillful Elven Courtsword and a wand of heroics to get Weapon Finesse, and then have two large greatswords spinning next to me using steeldance from a runestaff. I'd also have Shield from the runestaff to keep a decent AC.

Im not looking to outdo the warriors, but just something to trick people into seeing me as more than just a 'weak' caster and so I can do something against things immune to my spells. Any ideas are welcome.

The build so far is-
Lesser Tiefling, Beguiler 9/Mindbender 1

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 12

Feats:
Spellcasting Prodigy (we use the 3.0 version, not the crappy 3.5 one)
Darkstalker
Mindsight
Improved Initiative

[LordBlades]

Assuming you have a way to somehow get decent Wis, Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) might be what you need. It grants you access to the spells from a cleric domain. Stuff like War(Divine Power) or competition (Divine Power and Righteous Might) would definitely help you.

[ubergeek63]

Well for the occasional hit you could take the extra spell feat to get ice storm or freezing fog. both decent damage AoE with no saves.

While a lvl5, spell FF has the advantage of immobilizing opponents, dealing continual damage, and supplying full cover all in a single spell!

[Retech]

"Weak caster"

Hehe. I believe there is a cleric spell that gives you full BAB as a buff, though the name escapes me atm.

[Hunter Noventa]

Well for the occasional hit you could take the extra spell feat to get ice storm or freezing fog. both decent damage AoE with no saves.

While a lvl5, spell FF has the advantage of immobilizing opponents, dealing continual damage, and supplying full cover all in a single spell!

I don't think extra spell works that way. I'm pretty sure it gives you an additional spell known from the list you can already choose from for spontaneous casters. If those spells aren't on his list already, he's out of luck.

[dextercorvia]

I don't think extra spell works that way. I'm pretty sure it gives you an additional spell known from the list you can already choose from for spontaneous casters. If those spells aren't on his list already, he's out of luck.

It's debatable. The wording of the feat doesn't indicate this at all, but the Sage or FAQ "erratta'd" it to your understanding. Unfortunately, they don't have that authority.

On topic, you can pick up a skillful weapon from CArc, which gives you medium BAB with it, if you have less. Also, UMD is a class skill, so you can (in a couple of levels anyway) slap a wand chamber on your weapon, with a wand of Divine Power inside.

[Thurbane]

You could always UMD a Wand of Divine Power or Scroll of Tenser's Transformation, to get BAB = HD temporarily. Expensive choices, though.

[the clumsy bard]

Wand of divine power - 21000 GP
Staff of Tenser's transformation - 24750 GP (11CLx6(level of spell)x375)
Scroll of Tenser's transformation - 1650 GP

Arcanist's Glove - 20,000 GP store and activate use activated items aka wands or staves.

Will look cool, but doubtful if you can spend that much in game as its minimum 41000 GP with the wand of divine power.

[Dr.Epic]

Multiclass to a class with full BAB
Take feats to increase attack
Get magical gear
Check to see if there are variants for the class that offer a higher BAB
Talk to DM about homebrewing some stuff.

[Cog]

Arcanist's Glove - 20,000 GP store and activate use activated items aka wands or staves.
I'm pretty sure you mean the Casting Glove here.

[Malkav]

Im making a beguiler character for an upcoming game, but I was trying to come up with a way to have him contribute in melee

imho, being a beguiler contributes to combat by controlling everyone on your opposing team. I would focus not on damage, but making your control spells harder to resist or affecting more people or a larger area.

[mootoall]

Pretty sure the standard Gish builds work with Beguiler. Look for methods of getting into Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, etc.

[ubergeek63]

imho, being a beguiler contributes to combat by controlling everyone on your opposing team. I would focus not on damage, but making your control spells harder to resist or affecting more people or a larger area.
that is what makes freezing fog so nice. oh well lvl6... but it protects that side for 10 minutes per caster level

if he insists on melee damage he could get true strike

[Cog]

Casting True Strike just to get off maybe 5 points of damage isn't a very worthwhile use of your actions.

[ubergeek63]

Casting True Strike just to get off maybe 5 points of damage isn't a very worthwhile use of your actions.

no but it is great for orb spells or a baned out true-strike, splitting energy swordbow :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

Beguilers are nerfed wizards shoehorned into being something rather specific. Instead, why not play an actual wizard, such that you can access the wizard's prodigious spell list?

Suggested build:

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 2/Daggerspell 3

Feats:
1.Practiced Spellcaster
3.Weapon Focus(Dagger)
6.TWF
9.Free

Personally, I always liked going Human->Able Learner for this, but it isn't required unless you're worried about being the party trapmonkey. Still both prestige classes *SHOULD* have it, due to fluff and party role, so I think of it as a mistake that they don't.

[The Glyphstone]

Beguilers are nerfed wizards shoehorned into being something rather specific. Instead, why not play an actual wizard, such that you can access the wizard's prodigious spell list?


Well, there's this little bit:



Im not looking to outdo the warriors,

A Tier 1 Wizard will outdo the warriors while blind, deaf, and hopping on one leg if he wants to. Instead, he plays a Tier 3 Beguiler, letting him have his fun without throwing party balance into the trash heap.

[Greenish]

Beguilers are nerfed wizards shoehorned into being something rather specific.Yeah, I agree, beguiler is a much better class. :smallamused:

[ubergeek63]

Well, there's this little bit:

A Tier 1 Wizard will outdo the warriors while blind, deaf, and hopping on one leg if he wants to. Instead, he plays a Tier 3 Beguiler, letting him have his fun without throwing party balance into the trash heap.

that depends.... an enlarged PC with mithril tornado does something like 3d8 to up to 20 opponents a round. On my suggestion he is planning on adding vampiric to his sword ;)

Wizards can go nuts against that since they can do it at most 6 times a day and he can do that potentially many rounds a battle all day long!

[Godskook]

Well, there's this little bit:



A Tier 1 Wizard will outdo the warriors while blind, deaf, and hopping on one leg if he wants to. Instead, he plays a Tier 3 Beguiler, letting him have his fun without throwing party balance into the trash heap.

1.I saw that.

2.His post says nothing about not wanting to be a good caster, only about being able to enter melee competently and threaten foes immune to illusions/enchantments without showing up melee at their job.

3.You're either (A)overestimating a wizard's capabilities or (B)speaking incredibly literally. Without heavier optimization than the melee, wizards aren't going to be outshining the melee at being melee. And with god or batman tactics, he can certainly make sure that the whole party shines without singling himself out as being 'the best'. Benign Transposition for example is a very powerful wizard spell, but singularly makes the melee shine better.

In short, I read his post, and my suggestion is in line with it. If he has some unspoken 'must optimize' bug, he hasn't mentioned it.

[Darth_Versity]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I think getting Divine Power somehow is definetly the sort of thing im looking for (probably an Eternal Wand for 14 round/day). That combined with an Eternal Wand of Heroics to get Weapon Finesse and Elven Courtblade proficiency is perfect.

I could put the wand in a wand chamber (dungeonscape) I could activate it for 7 rounds and then reactivate if the fight is still going without much worry.


Beguilers are nerfed wizards shoehorned into being something rather specific. Instead, why not play an actual wizard, such that you can access the wizard's prodigious spell list?

I know that Wizards are superior, but I'm the only player in my party that even looks at optimisation so I dont try and steal the spotlight all the time. The only time I play a powerful class is when I can use it to make the others more effective, my last character was an Elf Wizard/War Weaver/Spellguard/Abjurant Champion who just made everyone else look amazing (+9 shield bonus, Haste and 4 other buffs on the whole party in the first round, yes please)

I really like the flavour of the beguiler and havent played a Tiefling in quite a while (my last Tiefling got petrified, he's now the central statue in a major town that he started) so I thought i'd give it a go.

I dont want to be a good 'warrior' but due to the background story I want people to think im good in a swordfight (even my team mates) so having just a few minutes a day where I can lay down the hurt with a sword is all I need.

[Divide by Zero]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I think getting Divine Power somehow is definetly the sort of thing im looking for (probably an Eternal Wand for 14 round/day). That combined with an Eternal Wand of Heroics to get Weapon Finesse and Elven Courtblade proficiency is perfect.

Eternal wands are only for arcane spells, and only go up to level 3.

[Rixx]

Eldritch Knight!

Keep most of your spellcasting progression and get a full BAB!

Take the Pathfinder version if your GM will allow it.

[Bakkan]

Another option is Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) I think Beguilers get all Knowledges as class skills, so with a little investment you can be getting +3 to attack and damage fairly reliably even at low-mid levels, which makes up for a poor BAB fairly well.

[Grendus]

You can get into Abjurant Champion, but not until you have third level spells (the only abjuration spell I found on their list was Dispel Magic, but I may have missed an earlier one). Something like Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 would have 9th level spells and +16 BAB. Generally though, Beguilers make craptastic gish builds. They get some combat buffs, but they miss some of the real treasures that make the other gish builds fly (Fist of Stone, Wraithstrike, Belker Claws, Steeldance, etc).

That said, for a pure beguiler build an Eternal Wand of Wraithstrike would work (or a regular wand, once you get your UMD high). 4420 gp would let you make all your strikes as touch based attacks twice per day. Buff up with some of your own spells (Displacement, Blur, and Greater Mirror Image are all on your list), and you can probably hold your own. Heck, you might even outshine the BSF, depending on his optimization level.

You could also go for some kind of sneak attack progression. A one level dip in Spellthief and then the Master Spellthief feat at level 6 would net you +1d6 Sneak Attack damage and the ability to steal spells when you land a sneak attack. Grab a Wand of Critical Strike (+1d6 sneak attack damage and double crit range) and a Wand of Fist of Stone (+6 Strength for 1 minute). You'd have to UMD them unless you grab them in Eternal Wand form, but that would make you a decent combatant, and a fairly good mageslayer. Combine with a few scrolls of True Strike and enter combat with Invisibility and you'll be fairly scary. You'll be a one hit wonder, but that one hit will sting, and fairly cheap (1500 for the wands, plus another hundred or so for the scrolls, since they're all first level spells).

[Cog]

I think Beguilers get all Knowledges as class skills...
Nope. Only (arcana) and (local).

[Draz74]

Just a side note, instead of Heroics for Weapon Finesse, you can just wield a Feycrafted weapon. Doesn't work with a Courtblade, unfortunately -- you'll have to switch to a Thinblade, I think. But the benefit is, you can get some other decent fighter feat from Heroics instead.

[Darth_Versity]

Just a side note, instead of Heroics for Weapon Finesse, you can just wield a Feycrafted weapon. Doesn't work with a Courtblade, unfortunately -- you'll have to switch to a Thinblade, I think. But the benefit is, you can get some other decent fighter feat from Heroics instead.

Yeah but feycraft reduces damage by one step and also requires the weapon to be light. That means only 1d4 at best for a shortsword. Where as with the wand ive got a 1d10 weapon in two hands.

While getting things like Eldritch Knight and abjurant champion make a great beguiler gish, im not actually looking to be a warrior type, just make people think that I can be.

I guess the eternal wand is out of the window, but normal wands can hold 4th level spells right? Just a strait wand of Divine Power with UMD works then.

[JohnDaBarr]

Can somebody instruct me where to find the damn Wand Chamber i check the Dungeonscape and couldn't find it?!?

btw...
get a wand of Quickened True Strike and a good one hand weapon, I know you'll burn through it fast but besides of the Divine Power I really cant think of anything else

[dextercorvia]

Can somebody instruct me where to find the damn Wand Chamber i check the Dungeonscape and couldn't find it?!?

btw...
get a wand of Quickened True Strike and a good one hand weapon, I know you'll burn through it fast but besides of the Divine Power I really cant think of anything else

It is in the special equipment section. Not magic items.

[Boci]

btw...
get a wand of Quickened True Strike and a good one hand weapon, I know you'll burn through it fast but besides of the Divine Power I really cant think of anything else

5th level spell, wands cap out at 4th. You would need the more powerful version of wands from...sandstorm I think.

[Veyr]

Nope, not that I can find in Sandstorm. There are "Scepters" in Lost Empires of Faerûn, which are like Wands except that they can go up to 7th level and spells above 4th level take 2 charges to cast.

Within Faerûn, anyway, making them requires knowledge of ancient Netherese secrets related to their produciton.

[ubergeek63]

5th level spell, wands cap out at 4th. You would need the more powerful version of wands from...sandstorm I think.

not if you take a feat to reduce the meta magicked spell level. it has the additional advantage of reducing the wand cost since very few will be able to have that "spell" in their "books", savings of 10%-20% since depending on how much more restrictive the GM considers a feat requirement as opposed to a skill requirement (a skill being worth a 10% reduction in price)

[dextercorvia]

not if you take a feat to reduce the meta magicked spell level. it has the additional advantage of reducing the wand cost since very few will be able to have that "spell" in their "books", savings of 10%-20% since depending on how much more restrictive the GM considers a feat requirement as opposed to a skill requirement (a skill being worth a 10% reduction in price)

IIRC, you might be able to use mitigation in item creation, but the unmitigated spell must still fit into a wand.

[ubergeek63]

IIRC, you might be able to use mitigation in item creation, but the unmitigated spell must still fit into a wand.

Where do you see that? I would think that if it can be cast from a 4th lvl slot, it can go in a wand. The restriction then becomes who can use the wand - if you do not have the feat, you can not use the wand.

that wand then is worth less based on the restriction, same as RAW about magic items class, level or skill restrictions. if you can not cast the spell normally, you can not freely use the item

[Boci]

Where do you see that? I would think that if it can be cast from a 4th lvl slot, it can go in a wand. The restriction then becomes who can use the wand - if you do not have the feat, you can not use the wand.

that wand then is worth less based on the restriction, same as RAW about magic items class, level or skill restrictions. if you can not cast the spell normally, you can not freely use the item

There is no RAW on the subject, so its the DMs call. He will most likely rule something in line with dextercorvia's interpretation, not yours.

[dextercorvia]

AFAIK, this is the entirety of RAW on the matter.


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

Feats like Arcane Thesis, or Easy Metamagic, might reduce the cost for the purposes of item creation, but that second sentence says to me what I said earlier.

[The Glyphstone]

And since metamagic cost reducers didn't exist when that rule was printed, we are left uncertain.

[Urpriest]

Beguilers get Haste, right? Wouldn't a Beguiler make a decent Swiftblade?

[dextercorvia]

Not really. Beguilers are missing most of the Gish standards.

[Veyr]

A lot of the Beguiler's advantages are kind of lost on a Swiftblade, though. Spontaneity doesn't mean much when, ya know, you're casting Haste with almost every spell slot. The Swiftblade won't progress the Beguiler's skills. Etc.

[Talya]

Eldritch Knight!

Keep most of your spellcasting progression and get a full BAB!

Take the Pathfinder version if your GM will allow it.

This is a good call.

Abjurant champion is also excellent, but beguilers lack a lot of abjurations.
Swiftblade is good, but beguilers lack Haste.

Other full BAB, full casting progression prcs:

Bladesinger (CW)
Spellsword (CW)
Dragonslayer (Drac)
Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD)
Thrall of Orcus (BoVD)

[ubergeek63]

AFAIK, this is the entirety of RAW on the matter.



Feats like Arcane Thesis, or Easy Metamagic, might reduce the cost for the purposes of item creation, but that second sentence says to me what I said earlier.

you know what? it would actually cost less to take the two feats (quicken and metamagic spell trigger) and buy a bunch of wands of true strike!

[Boci]

you know what? it would actually cost less to take the two feats (quicken and metamagic spell trigger) and buy a bunch of wands of true strike!

GP wise certainly, but feats are worth a lot. Quicken has over uses, but the second? Still a steep cost.

[Velaryon]

This is a good call.

Abjurant champion is also excellent, but beguilers lack a lot of abjurations.
Swiftblade is good, but beguilers lack Haste.

Other full BAB, full casting progression prcs:

Bladesinger (CW)
Spellsword (CW)
Dragonslayer (Drac)
Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD)
Thrall of Orcus (BoVD)

None of those have full casting progression - Bladesinger, Spellsword, and Dragonslayer only progress casting every other level, and the two Thrall classes do even less than that.

I would definitely think Abjurant Champion a poor fit for a Beguiler, since they don't really have abjurations to speak of. Beguilers do actually have Haste, and could meet the prerequisites for Swiftblade fairly easily, but Swiftblade only has 6/10 casting progression and shares few class skills with Beguiler. Still though, it's probably one of the better gish classes to use for this type of character.

But UMD/Divine Power is probably good enough in this case, since TC said he only needs to look proficient for a little bit at a time.

[JohnDaBarr]

Hmmm so if you can get a wand with a quickened True Strike and put it in a wand chamber on your weapon it will solve your problems with hitting stuff.....

and this leads me to the next subject.... how do you create wands with spells that have metamagic stuff on them and the metamagic stuff has lvl reduction aka, Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Improved metamagic?!?

if they apply then creating a Split, Maximized, Empower (with Improved metamagic, and Easy metamagic on Maximized) Ray of Enfeeblement (lvl 4 spell) wand is possible, cheap and pretty useful because 2 targets get -16 on Str!

[ericgrau]

He's level 10, people need to stop suggesting 33,000 gp items. Spell storing weapons are good for one shot attacks so that when you do finally hit you get a nice big boom. If you can't use a damage spell then hideous laughter or maybe hold person could work. If you have heroism, greater magic weapon, crafting your own magic weapons/armor or dex items, etc. then these buffs can likewise bring your attack bonus closer to par.

[dextercorvia]

you know what? it would actually cost less to take the two feats (quicken and metamagic spell trigger) and buy a bunch of wands of true strike!

Save the second feat and get a metamagic wand grip. I believe they are in CMage.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I browsed quickly through the thread, so I might have missed earlier suggestions, but a decent alternative may be to get the Arcane strike feat. It will allow you not only to basically offset your low base attack bonus and do some nifty damage, but also to moderate your 'effectiveness' a bit. You can burn high level spell slots for high attack bonuses and loads of damage when really cornered, or burn low level slots for a little attack bonus boost and damage boost for when you don't want to outshine the warrior-types.

Granted, it doesn't increase your b.a.b., but I do think it does more or less what you want, for the cost of one feat?