Monk Wish List

[NeverSleep]

What is missing from making the monk fun and playable.

What would you like to add to the class features, if you could have anything?


My first thought on this is that monks should have tons of attacks that don't do as much damage. On "offense" and "defence". So I propose the new monk feature: Never-ending rain

First change bab to full, and give them an additional iterative attack as part of a standard action and a full attack, just to get started in fixing them.

Never-ending Rain

Monks have the uncanny ability to strike an opponent at any moment, this includes while being attacked. They strike at the limbs and exposed areas left by comitting to an attack.

When an opponent attacks the monk and misses, monks may make an attack roll(if able, unarmed strikes only) using the amount that the opponent missed their ac as the bab, up to the monk's character level.

The damage done is subdual, and the attack my not be used for trip attempts or other combat manuevers(including stunning fist, etc...). The maximum number of attacks per round is the monk's dex bonus.

I would also like to adjust their skill set, but maybe I'll adress that in a later post.


What do you think of these, and what else would you wish for?

[Asheram]

I'd Like...

Full BAB...
A D10 for Hit Dice...

Now I'm satisfied.

[Greenish]

Eh, Snap Kick and a hugely nerfed Robilar's Gambit don't seem to help monks that much. Full BAB is nice though.

I'd just use swordsage or tashatalora, to give monks real options. Alternatively, make a psionic or martial adept monk.

[Divide by Zero]

Flight and reach would be a good starting point.

[IthroZada]

Flight and reach would be a good starting point.

Heck, the reach could be that "Ring the bell" thing, where you punch, and your chi hits an object farther away. As for flight... I guess they'll have to ask Goku about that one. A nimbus cloud as a class feature would be awesome though.

[Hazzardevil]

Heck, the reach could be that "Ring the bell" thing, where you punch, and your chi hits an object farther away. As for flight... I guess they'll have to ask Goku about that one. A nimbus cloud as a class feature would be awesome though.

Goku also made a very good monk fix and was well balanced, the only problem was he had a lot of powerful abilitys without any LA.

I think that all you need to do to make the monk better is just improve the abilitys really, removing limitations and alllowing more uses of stuff.

[Telonius]

Full BAB
d10 HD
Ability to enchant fists/body as though they were Magic Weapons and Armor
Flurry as a standard action

That's about it, really. It doesn't need all that much to be bumped up a Tier or two.

[Jude_H]

I want it to juggle calm with fighting.

To do that:

Wisdom to attack and damage while psionic focused.
Discharging psionic focus generates effects like an extra attack or a stunning fist. These effects are expanded to target all of the different saves, with effects building from things like Shaken, Entangled and knockback at low levels to things like Negative Levels, Panic and Quivering Palm at mid levels to things like Disjunction, Decerebrate and Apopsi at higher levels.
Maintain extra psionic focuses simultaneously, increasing with level (maybe a second at level 2, a third at level 5). The word chakra should be written all over the class entry.
Re-focus easily. Maybe start with it as a Standard Action, give them Psionic Meditation at level 5, make it swift at level 9, immediate at level 13.
Cut the spell-likes and supernatural abilities. Add manifesting. Psychic Rogue advancement, Psychic Warrior list, wisdom base.


Then just some clean-up. Like the speed enhancement is cut in half and made typeless. And fists can be enhanced, as the OA Samurai's daisho. And Monks are proficient with them. And Monks get Autohypnosis, because why not.

[lightningcat]

One of the ideas that I was thinking about for a monk fix was a multiplier for jump distance based on level.

They should also have all Knowledge skills. No matter the source material, monks have always been scholars.

[Sitzkrieg]

The Charactonomicon monk is a homebrewed class that gives the monk access to fighting styles. Every couple levels, the monk gains a fighting style, which the player designs by combining two benefits from a long list. Each fighting style gives you a totally unique benefit, which can make the monk useful at stuff nobody else can do with their class features, like Con damage, extra speed, concealment, etc. It also has lots of other stuff, like multipliers to their jump checks for wire-fu tricks. It's here: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Charactonomicon

[Telonius]

One thing that continues to puzzle me about this sort of Monk discussion. Why is it that so many Psionic suggestions keep coming up? Is it the crunch aspect? At least to my mind, "crazy kung fu guy" and "guy who can kill a yak at 200 yards with mind bullets" seem to occupy separate archetypes. There is some overlap with "extreme mental self-discipline," but I really just don't understand the frequency with which psionics are suggested.

[Greenish]

Why is it that so many Psionic suggestions keep coming up? Is it the crunch aspect?No, it's the fluff, which is basically the same, combine with the fact that psionics give you real options (and no, I don't mean "mind bullets").

Look up Psywarr's list and say there aren't stuff that'd make for a great monk.

[Telonius]

No, it's the fluff, which is basically the same, combine with the fact that psionics give you real options (and no, I don't mean "mind bullets").

Look up Psywarr's list and say there aren't stuff that'd make for a great monk.

There isn't much that screams "Monk" to me. There are several second-level powers that really fit the archetype, I'll give you that. But beyond that? I'm just not seeing it. There are a bunch of things that would be mechanically useful to what Monks tend to try to do, but not much that would be thematic to a Monk. Basically: if I can't picture Caine, or Nameless, or one of Bruce Lee's characters doing something like it, it doesn't fit the Monk fluff for me. For 90% of the stuff outside of 2nd-level powers, the fluff description of what the powers do, just doesn't fit. I know that it's always possible to reword the fluff. But the existing descriptions are just a really big barrier for me.

[Jude_H]

One thing that continues to puzzle me about this sort of Monk discussion. Why is it that so many Psionic suggestions keep coming up? Is it the crunch aspect?
2 reasons:
If you swapped the word Ki into the Psion entry in place of "Psionic," you'd basically have the Monk.
Psychic Warrior powers address basically all the Monk's biggest troubles (mobility, reach, attribute dependency). Psionic Focus turns the discipline and meditation aspect of the Monk into a game mechanic

The powers themselves are a little sketchy. They don't fit Bruce Lee movie at higher levels, but they wouldn't be too out of place in Master of the Flying Guillotine. Really, that fits the concept; the Monk itself is way more wuxia than kung fu.

[GoatBoy]

Perhaps play up the monk's woefully inadequate implementation as a "mage killer."

- Gain a new save every round on every ongoing magic effect.

- Generate a personal antimagic field.

- Copy the effect of any spell cast on an enemy within a certain range (if they teleport, you teleport with them, etc.)

This is all quite specialized for a core base class. Frankly, decent feats which gave unarmed attack damage, unarmored AC, and flurry of blows could turn the Fighter into a decent imitation of a monk, with more of the exotic abilities (like the list above) reserved for prestige classes.

[gallagher]

i would say let monks "call shots"
you could homebrew a mechanic for it, but a big part of martial arts is body control. if anyone would be able to call a shot in the middle of a huge battle with everyone surrounding you... it would be a monk

[Greenish]

Basically: if I can't picture Caine, or Nameless, or one of Bruce Lee's characters doing something like it, it doesn't fit the Monk fluff for me.Well, that includes the Monk class itself (teleports, save or die, etherealness, superhuman running speed).

Your problem is that you're thinking of wrong archetype ("martial artist" instead of "wise sage with mystical asskicking powers"). Monks by fluff and by current execution are very much the latter, if you want to do the former, some other class would be a better fit.

[stainboy]

I think the psywar model emphasizes self-buffs too much for the monk. Using power points and a choice of powers known makes sense for stuff like Wholeness of Body and Abundant Step. I just wouldn't want to see them spend most of their power points maintaining two Precognitions, Expansion, and Animal Affinity.

I also wouldn't be thrilled about every monk having Hidden Talent: Astral Construct.

[Endarire]

What's so bad about Monks throwing their astral constructs, or using astral construct exoskeletons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10279.0)?

[Teln]

Frankly, decent feats which gave unarmed attack damage, unarmored AC, and flurry of blows could turn the Fighter into a decent imitation of a monk, with more of the exotic abilities (like the list above) reserved for prestige classes.

You have no idea how right you are. Say "hello" to Morris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9323379&postcount=27).

[Greenish]

Frankly, decent feats which gave unarmed attack damage, unarmored AC, and flurry of blows could turn the Fighter into a decent imitation of a monk, with more of the exotic abilities (like the list above) reserved for prestige classes.IUS, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and you're already there (except for AC, but you can just wear actual armour).

Also, Fist of the Forest is a martial artist in three short levels.

[stainboy]

What's so bad about Monks throwing their astral constructs, or using astral construct exoskeletons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10279.0)?

Balance-wise nothing, but the fluff doesn't fit, and the power is so good that a lot of monks would take it just by default. I don't have a beef with Astral Construct, specifically. I just think that fixing monks with a power progression would move them away from the kung fu movie archetype and turn them into unarmed psywars. You can't restrict their power list; they'll just feat into stuff on the psion/wilder list.

We don't need to turn monks into unarmed psywars, it's much easier to turn psywars into unarmed psywars. (Just let them trade armor and martial weapon proficiencies for free Tashalatora, or something.)

[Kylarra]

That would beg the question of why you're trading so many feats for ... 2 feats though, since by a strict reading of RAW, you don't actually need the monk levels, just Monastic Training (class of choice) and Tash.

[NeverSleep]

I would like to see stunning fist have as much support as turning attempts do. Give them more uses per day, and let it do more stuff.

"Ring the bell" would be nice here. Other flavorul options that target various saves(fort. In particular I think) and start status effects.

Get hit by a monk's stunning fist and have a chance to get "doubled over" for -2 attack rolls/damage, and(on failed save) only a standard or move action next turn or something like that.

Stunning fist is weak now because you need to hit first, then they get a save. 2 chances to save. So make some of the options have options that go off if you don't hit, or if they save, or both.

Maybe that last idea would be better in a PRC.

[FMArthur]

Flight and free movement is something all melee struggles with, so I wouldn't fix one class without fixing the others. I don't think full-on flight after a certain level is unbalanced (far from it!), but it doesn't fit the fluff a lot of PCs will want to have with their mundanes (such as staying mundane!).

How about a Jump and Tumble rework that let them be used as a Swift Action (all classes) and giving Monks a bonus? Both Jump and flight abilities would need a total overhaul for melee to be able to use Jump to hit them (much, much better height returns on Jump checks and CL-based height caps on all forms of flight are needed). Tumble and Jump could be mutually-exclusive actions, so Tumble would be good for fighting on land (full movement, DC 10+ enemy AB instead of flat DC 15 to avoid AoOs) and Jump would be better for engaging flying critters and getting to difficult-access terrain (trees, cliffsides, ramparts) in battles.