[Pathfinder] looking for advice on picking specialist/opposing schools

[LightsOnNo1Home]

Hi Guys

I'm looking for some advice here.

Basically, my local group is starting a Pathfinder campaign, creating at level 7.

I want to play an arcane caster, and I'm leaning towards wizard as I've always played a sorcerer in the past (in 3.0/3.5. This will be my first proper Pathfinder campaign), and I fancy a change.

I've never had to consider picking a specialist school before, and I was just wondering if anyone here would be willing to give their thoughts on the following:

1. Is specialising wothwhile (and why)?

2. What's the best school to specialise in (again why?)

3. What are the best schools to select as opposing schools, and why? (note to 3.5 players reading this who may want to comment: you are not banned in 3.P from casting spells in your opposing schools, but they take up 2 spell slots instead of one)

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.:smallsmile:

[Curious]

Definitely specialize; the extra slot and awesome abilities are always worth it. Illusion is a good one for specialization, lots of goodies and a good school, and so are transmutation and conjuration. For opposing schools, I would recommend Evocation, and perhaps divination. Always choose evocation for an opposing school, it just isn't worth it.

[Paul H]

Hi

Definitely 'Horses for courses' thing here. Each school has it's advantages/disadvantages.

Transmutation is good, and I disagree wth previous poster re Evocation. Loads force bolts, and extra damage frm evocation spells reminds me of my (3.5) Warmage with Edge.

Elves are a good race for Wizards - bonus Dex & Int, bonus to overcome SR (stacks with spell penetration feats), weapon proficiencies, etc.

One of our regular PFS players has an Elven Evoker. We know when combat is really serious when he actually has to cast spells (not just Mage Armour). Usually uses bow or Force Missiles. (Similar to Magic Missile, as Spell like ability).

Thanks
Paul H
PS Gravity Bow (APG, Transmutation) mkes your Longbow do 2D6 damage 1 Min/Lvl

[Curious]

Damage dealing is the least efficient way to use spells, thus why I suggested banning Evocation. Debuffs, save or sucks, entangling, those are the kinds of effects you want to slap on your enemies. Your party beatstick can lay the hurt down all day long, while you have a limited resource. Use it wisely.

[Paul H]

Hi

I agree buffing party can do more damage over long run, but there are times when the beatstick just has to run away (half damage with magic weapon vs incorporeal, limited/no damage vs swarms, etc).

Evokers best use is to soften up enemies or take down large groups of 'interference'. Should always some keep buffs, though. You are part of a team, after all.

Illusionists/Conjurers can help funnel opponents. Transmuters help buff the party, but don't rely on too many buffs - you might not have the time in combat.

Most importantly: Just play with what you feel comfortable with.

Just my 2p worth.
Paul H

[jmelesky]

There are two real considerations for specialization: spells and the specialization powers. The spells need to be good enough that you always want to have one memorized per level, because, well, you have to have one memorized per level.

So, for example, Divination doesn't have great spells for specialization. It has great spells for situational stuff, but not so much for day-to-day adventuring. However, it has some of the most powerful specialization powers.

You said you were interested in playing something different, but that you'd played sorcerers in the past. So my advice is: figure out what school you used to cast all the time. Make that school an opposition school. Force yourself outside of your comfort zone that way, and see what the other schools look like.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I must ask, is 3.5e allowed? If not, then being a Necromancer who's not a cleric is actually not all that painful. Yes, you still have to wait longer for animate dead, but the agent of the grave PrC makes the pathfinder Necromancer a minionmancer almost, if not totally on par with the pathfinder cleric since clerics no longer have the deathbound domain to make lolundead and can't take divine magician and suddenly obtain all the spells "exclusive" to you.(and in the process become better at you in casting necromancy and minionmancy.) Thus, if you are a fan of debuffing and want to make the archetypal "rise, my undead minions!" necromancer you can now do it with a wizard instead of a Dread Necro, so long as 3.5e content is not allowed.

As for the Necro specialty, Some of the powers for it are meh but the touch attacks powers can be traded away for stuff that bolsters your undead minions. With that, the Agent of the Grave PrC and the fact you get command undead(pathfinder's rebuke undead) for free for being a necro specialist you, unlike the 3.5e wizard, can actually be a pretty darn good minionmancer and STILL be the great debuffer/necro-caster that the 3.5e necro wizard was.

The only issue is necromancy is really not all that great spell-wise at lower levels. With ray of enfeeblement getting hit by the nerf bat pretty hard your going to find that there are not all that many all-star necro spells in the lower levels without diving into 3.5e or 3rd party.(which may not be allowed) The plus side though is once you get to the better spells some of them are very nice. Of course enveration and friends are all still wonderful debuffers, though sadly pretty much all the save-or dies have become blasty spells, but there's still enough good stuff for necromancy and unlike 3.5e you'll actually be making better use of animate dead if you plan on going into agent of the grave. Likewise, agent of the grave can grab off-list spells and add them to your class spell list so if you really want a save or-die that is still, well, a save or-die, you can grab destruction from the cleric list which I think is like the only save or-die not nerf-slapped into being a blasty spell.

As far as the other specialists are concerned, the best ones are usually the best schools. Conjuration is by far one of the best schools, if not the absolute best in the game so you can't go wrong by specializing in it. Illusion can also be useful as can transmutation(though be aware that pathfinder nerfed the polymorph line so don't expect your transmuter to be able to shapechange into some horridly overpowered monster, lolpwn the enemies and make the fighter cry as you just did what he dose but better.). Evocation is the one school I would always limit/ban, but the second highly depends on build. For most wizards the second choice is most likely enchantment. Illusion can already do what enchantment dose(target will like it's nobody's business) and also provides some very useful spells enchantment can't, such as invisibility. However, enchantment, likewise, has some spells that can't be duplicated, such as dominates and charms and such. Thus, which one you ban will depend on what you want your wizard to do. Usually enchantment will be the better choice to ban due illusion's spells generally being more useful but if your party needs a face badly you may not want to axe enchantment.

Likewise, if your a necro headed for agent of the grave you DO NOT want to drop enchantment. The reason being that the class allows you to use mind-effecting spells on undead and as a result having access to dominate spells will be a massive boon to growing your horde. Also, a necromancer will most likely be far more charismatic then your standard wizard(As unlike most wizards who don't use cha for anything and thus are free to dumb it to abysmal levels you'll need some cha for your rebukeing.) and as a result a necro wizard with access to enchantment can actually be a passable face with charms and such if need be.

In the end, however, it depends on what you see your character doing though if you are not looking for a specialty character like the necromancer I've been babbling all post about then I'd say Conjuratrion, Illusion or Transmutation banning evocation and enchantment are your best bets.

If you are interested in the agent of the grave PrC that I have been raving about, you can find it in the pathfinder SRD on this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/agent-of-the-grave).

[CTrees]

I love the divination and it's subschools, for the tremendously strong powers. If you likeblasting, though, the admixture school *really* helps with resistances (if only it could provide sonic or force damage...), and comboing with the Rime Spell metamagic from UM is a lot of fun...

[subject42]

You could also look at the elemental wizard ACF from the Advanced Player's guide. That way you only have to ban an element, rather than a school.

If you are going to specialize, I've taken a shine to Transmutation and Necromancy, if only because the APG offered the Necromancer's Athame and the Annihilation spectacles. Both of them let you spontaneously expend a spell of your specialty school to spontaneously cast another spell of your specialty school.

Banning divination and enchantment has been a working strategy in my groups; the former because it's situational and the latter because so many things are immune to mind-effecting abilities.

[grarrrg]

I say ban Divination.
Just because you can :smallcool:


I like the Specialization powers for Abjuration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/abjuration) and Transmutation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/transmutation).

Abjuration gives you Energy Resist 5 (your choice what type) at level 1, and Energy Absorption at level 6.

Transmutation gives you a +1 bonus to a physical ability score (additional +1 every 5 levels). Add it to Str and make a Gish, add it to Dex for a Ray boost, or add it to Con for a toughness boost.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I've taken a shine to Transmutation and Necromancy, if only because the APG offered the Necromancer's Athame and the Annihilation spectacles.

Yet another reason the pathfinder Necro is far more appealing then the 3.5e one. Seirously, if there is ONE gap I find Pazio has successfully made smaller in pure pathfinder it is the gap between wizards and clerics when it comes to necromancy. Giving them with rebuke and providing them with ACFs and a PrC(Agent of the Grave) dedicated to making them better minionmancers Wizards can finally state toe to toe with clerics in the minionmancer department(though a lot of that is due to the clerics LOSING much of what made them so much better then the wizard at necromancy(Deathbound Domain and the Divine Magician ACF, mainly.)) and yet still be awesome casters with options like the one mentioned above. So while I do have my gripes with Pathfinder(Still did not fix the caster vs. melee disparity.) I must say Pazio knows how to do Necromancy.

[faceroll]

Evocation has gust of wind, which is pretty much a must have for dealing with cloud effects.

[Curious]

Evocation has gust of wind, which is pretty much a must have for dealing with cloud effects.

One spell good for dealing with situational abilities is not a reason to stay with a sub-optimal school.

[CheshireCatAW]

Evocation has gust of wind, which is pretty much a must have for dealing with cloud effects.

For this, use a scroll. Remember, in pathfinder you can still use banned school items and spells. Except spells take 2 slots instead of one.

[faceroll]

One spell good for dealing with situational abilities is not a reason to stay with a sub-optimal school.

You greatly underestimate the lethality of cloud spells.


For this, use a scroll. Remember, in pathfinder you can still use banned school items and spells. Except spells take 2 slots instead of one.

No kidding?
Yeah, then definitely keep that on a scroll. All of Evocation's good spells are scroll only.

[Zurdan]

If it makes the decision any easier, there is an arcane discovery in Ultimate Magic that allows you to get rid of one of your banned schools that way you will only have one banned school. You have to be 9th lvl to take it.

[Popertop]

Evocation has gust of wind, which is pretty much a must have for dealing with cloud effects.

shadow evocation

[Durmegil Guldur]

DM here. To give some perspective, here's where I'll chime in with the rest of the party as it stands:

Elven Fighter - the player seems to be going for a two-handed build based around the elven curve blade.
Half-Orc Inquisitor - The player hasn't begun creation yet, but the concept he gave me makes me think it'll be built around an Investigator type.
Elven Rogue - The player has built the character traits and starting equipment up to make best use of the stealth skill and sneak attacks - possibly being set up as the party scout
Cleric (race uncertain) - The player likes to play the party band-aid.

There are other players who are joining later, but we aren't sure which race/classes they will be playing, though LON1H has a feeling that one of them will play an Oracle due to a personal attraction to character flaws that somehow benefit the character.

Anyhow, I hope you find what you're looking for and have fun at the game.