How to make a dungeon make sense.

[Shinizak]

One problem I always have when building dungeons is how do I justify it being there? or how do I keep it from being cliche? why is a dungeon in the middle of god knows where? why does it have these creatures crammed inside it? Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already? these and more are all great questions that I have difficulty answering.

Do any of you have any tips and ideas for making this process easier?

[Knaight]

Move away from the proper dungeon a bit. Consider things along the lines of military fortresses, bandit camps, cult hideouts, anything built to serve a specific purpose. These would naturally be populated, and by entities capable of resistance. And with this sort of thing as the standard, it makes it easier to implement a more classical dungeon when you come up with a reason.

One could also cut dungeons altogether, which I can verify the functionality of. However, it is a very different type of game.

[Tvtyrant]

A great one from the Runelord is to make the dungeon designed to stop things from getting through it to keep things from coming up.

Empires that have natural access to the Underdark would be constantly under attack from Aberrations that live beneath the worlds crust, so they build dungeons and labyrinths underground at the entrance point to make entrance too dangerous for armies. The reason it is filled with Constructs, Mindless Undead and death traps is to keep anything from coming up to the surface. The expense of making it is justified by the price compared to stationing an army below the surface and keeping it fed; Constructs are expensive once, an army is expensive forever.

Certain constructs are designed to keep the place running, and don't deal with intruders directly unless attacked. These could be Clockwork Horrors, Awakened Animated Objects, or whatever but they would provide an excuse for why the dungeons traps continue to be reset.

The wealth laying around thing can be these maintenance constructs gathering all of the magic items and gold of the underdark armies that have tried to make their way to the surface into certain vaults. These vaults were emptied from time to time by professionals hired by the Empire, the tradition that led to adventurers coming into existence. The truth about all of this can be discovered above by looking through libraries, or below when the party reaches the end of the dungeon and sees a massive natural cavern extending forever.

[Ravens_cry]

If done right, tombs make sense. Sure, you can't realistically expect any but the most basic (or magical) traps to survive, but just like people had dead servants buried with them in Reality, so having undead and/or constructs to arise to protect the tomb of Grand Poobah the Eighth makes sense, depending on the culture.
I am working on a campaign where it is like the Klondike mixed with 19th century "archaeology", where the dangers are as much from your fellow "Expert Treasure-hunters" as the preparations of the occupants, with tent cities springing up around larger sites.

[havocfett]

A) It's a dungeon. You keep prisoners there.

B) You want a fortified complex people aren't around much. Ergo an enchanted, underground solid stone base filled with deathtraps. Building in a city would compromise security and kill random hobos who wander through.

C) You are friggin insane. This works best if the players already know about this trait.

Note: 'you' refers to creator of dungeon. Not you as a DM and/or Character and/or DMPC

[Tvtyrant]

If done right, tombs make sense. Sure, you can't realistically expect any but the most basic (or magical) traps to survive, but just like people had dead servants buried with them in Reality, so having undead and/or constructs to arise to protect the tomb of Grand Poobah the Eighth makes sense, depending on the culture.
I am working on a campaign where it is like the Klondike mixed with 19th century "archaeology", where the dangers are as much from your fellow "Expert Treasure-hunters" as the preparations of the occupants, with tent cities springing up around larger sites.

I like this idea, with the one caveat that if your making Adventurer an actual occupation you need to make stories of untold wealth common. People should actually be defeating these places on a frequent basis, but no one can tell for sure if one is full of treasure or plundered. Then more then half the dungeons are empty at the end, and no one believes you when you tell them. Play it up as a gold rush thing, age of adventure, etc. Tons of people doing it and all of them gold crazy.

I would also like to point out that at least Aberrations, undead and constructs make sense to appear frequently in the defense dungeon, along with any other adventurers and underdark creatures you like.

[some guy]

The dungeon isn't a dungeon, it's a temple of a dead and forgotten god/ cavernous mass/ military installment/ hive/lair of monster/ part of ancient city/ funhouse/ business establishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_(comics))/ crashed spaceship (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/barrier-peaks-wtf.php)/ dreamstructure of a terrible being/ tomb/ abandoned mines.


why is a dungeon in the middle of god knows where?
Maybe, before the apocalyptic event, the dungeon was part of a thriving community.
Maybe the cultists of the dark deity Nrub'Yiglith like the isolation.
Maybe it's an outpost.
Maybe it's the best place for stargazing for Plinelin the Wizened.


why does it have these creatures crammed inside it?
The creatures are the inhabitants.
The creatures are the moving remnants of the former inhabitants.
The creatures are the caretakers of the dungeon.
The creatures are a rivaling adventuring party.
The creatures have found an ecological niche in this dungeon and have filled it.
The creatures are the pc's moms and have come with warm sweaters and lunchboxes.
The creatures are an enemy force of the inhabitants of the dungeon.


Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already?
It has been partially robbed and the adventurers figured to quit while they were still alive.
It has been partially robbed and the adventurers have died a grisly death at one of the traps.
It has been completely robbed but the adventurers were trapped in the final room and have died an horrible death.
The adventurers have only looted the first room before figuring it wasn't worth the trouble.
The dungeon hasn't been looted because nobody has heard of this dungeon.
The dungeon hasn't been looted because everybody knows it's the Tomb of Horrors.

Anyway, figuring out what a dungeon is, is figuring out what the adventure is.

[HappyBlanket]

Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already?

It has been partially robbed and the adventurers figured to quit while they were still alive.
It has been partially robbed and the adventurers have died a grisly death at one of the traps.
It has been completely robbed but the adventurers were trapped in the final room and have died an horrible death.
The adventurers have only looted the first room before figuring it wasn't worth the trouble.
The dungeon hasn't been looted because nobody has heard of this dungeon.
The dungeon hasn't been looted because everybody knows it's the Tomb of Horrors.

Because the PCs haven't done it yet?

[Kislath]

A dungeon's construction requires a huge outlay of cash and resources, so there must be a really good reason to build one. My best one was made by the mage's guild for safe storage of dangerous and powerful artifacts.

[some guy]

Oh, this article (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dnd/20110520) might also offer some inspiration.

[arkol]

Or take it the other way.

As a DM why do you build a dungeon? To challenge your PCs is a good as any reply no? So why can't the creator of the dungeon think likewise? If this doesn't make any sense...

Enter the deathtrap dungeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathtrap_Dungeon)!

PS: Sukumvit rocks!

[Gamer Girl]

One problem I always have when building dungeons is how do I justify it being there? or how do I keep it from being cliche? why is a dungeon in the middle of god knows where? why does it have these creatures crammed inside it? Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already? these and more are all great questions that I have difficulty answering.

Do any of you have any tips and ideas for making this process easier?


1.Most dungeons were built for a reason. Basically the same reasons we today build the exact same things underground. So the original dungeon could have dozens of reasons for being there. Really, almost any reason. It's very common to build things underground.

And in fantasy worlds...lots of races live underground, so a dungeon is normal to them. Dwarves, for example, will build lots under ground.

2.Know the cliches and don't use them and/or change them.

3.The basic idea of a dungeon is that it was built long, long ago by a civilization that has fallen. So all the surface buildings are gone, but the underground stuff is still there. This is quite true in the real world too. So at one time the dungeon was once the 'basement' of a grant castle, that was destroyed 100 years ago.

4.The creatures come for various reasons. Animals and beasts lair underground and don't care if it's a cave or a cellar or a dungeon. Undead are the remains of folks that died there, often the original ones. And lots of folk like to live under ground. And on top of all that, monsters move in to the dungeon as their is food there.

5.Many have. The 'average' dungeon can get 'cleared out' several times a year. But unless it's utterly destroyed or staffed and patrolled, then everything will move back in. A dungeon won't stay empty for long.

And, of course, lots of dungeons are 'hidden' or 'lost'. And a lot of adventurer types fail. So they enter the dungeon and die, and don't even come close to clearing it out.


Also, some Mages do create dungeons for fun.

[Talakeal]

why does it have these creatures crammed inside it?

Is there any problem that a Deepspawn can't take care of?

[Godskook]

No peaking, pinballchico(or anyone else in my campaign):

The dungeons in my setting will be crafted by a former PC after he is sent back in time. Whatever is built into the dungeon is there to keep people other than the PCs out, as well as to give xp to the PCs for beating it. Yes, the former PC knows what 'xp' is. He also believes his plan has already begun to work, since the PCs have raided one of the dungeons he is going to make already.

[Randel]

One idea for a possible dungeon and its reason for being there:

Big long backstory:


Once there was a militant and warlike kingdom that had begun attacking its neighbors. Lead by human supremacists, they would systematically kill any of the monsterous races in their lands. Elves and dwarves weren't treated much better, sure at first they were treated okay but with this kingdom it was only a matter of time before they had their possesions taken, their homes destroyed, and they themselves were sent somewhere where they were never seen again.

This naturally created a great alliance of other kingdoms who fought against them but even that was not enough to ensure victory due to the degree of training and magic this evil kingdom put into the battlefield. The other kingdoms fought, but it would be close.

The evil kingdom fell but not by their hands.

Their was a wizard... a powerful wizard, a wizard with fiendish blood. The son of a human male an a succubus (there are debates on what the exact relationship between his parents were, some say his mother seduced his father while others say his father was a spellcaster who had bound a succubus into his service. Either way it wasn't healthy). This wizard was a tiefling and he got the vast majority of his power the old-fashioned way. By killing as many people as he could get away with in the shortest amount of time as possible.

The nameless tiefling (actually his name was Kragok, its just nobody speaks his name anymore) worked for one of good kings fighting the war and had distinguished himself in many operations before. His power of the destructive arts had won many battles and helped many of the other soldiers. But these victories seemed trivial compared to the bloodshed going on and the military buildup their enemy was working on.

So Kragok set to work on a different plan, he left his post and begun research on the creation of spawning undead (wraiths, shadows, and wights) a branch of research that was foul to a degree even their enemy would never stoop to. He created a dozen undead lieutenants, six wights and six wraiths and then snuck behind enemy lines into the heart of their kingdom where he proceeded to exterminate every adult male in the land.

While the enemies armies were out fighting, he has his wraiths break into the homes of peasants, kill the adult males, convert them into undead, and move on to the next town. Using teleportation, he spread his army across the entire kingdom in a single night and by morning he had pretty much ended it. Once his army destroyed the peasantry, they took out the guards and petty nobles and with their increased numbers hunted down the armies and added the soldiers to their numbers.

The chaos of this had destroyed the enemy kingdom, but had equally struck terror into the hearts of all the good aligned nations fighting it. The chief problem with spawning undead is that once they are created they can never be trusted or contained, they kill and add their victims to their ranks and will spread like wildfire until nothing around them lives. A necromancer may put as many safeguards on them as he wants but its only a matter of time before the undead break free, their chain of control is broken, or something goes wrong. As such, it is univerally agreed that anybody who uses spawning undead is not only evil to the greatest possible degree but they are too stupid and powerful to be left alive.

Kragok knew this, did it anyway, and proceeded to dismantle his new army as soon as the job was done. After wiping out nine tenths of the evil kingdoms military forces and pretty much all of its productive capacity (sure the women and children survived but there were pretty much no female experts in any field) Kragok had his entire undead army march into the evil kings most secure underground stronghold.

This stronghold was where all the major planning and military research took place, it was underground and loaded with the greatest defenses ever devised. Some would say it could withstand entire armies or the actions of a hundred teams of speacial forces operators.

Kragok sent an army of half a million wraiths and wights into that stronghold to kill anyone or any thing that might be in there. He then watched as the other kingdoms launched their own attack, destroying the entrances and exits of the place to seal it off. Trapping both the leaders of that evil kingdom and the army of undead Kragok sent in to destroy them.

Kragok left a message for his former comrades admitting to his actions and detailing how he had done it (those notes were then used by the alliance of good kingdoms to develop ways of preventing anything like this from happening again) before leaving the land forever, the best diviners in the known world have been unable to detect his so its quite possible he left for some uncharted plane.

Things got easier after that, the other kingdoms had a much easier time moving in and mopping up what feeble resistance remained. The evil kingdom was conquered and the lands divided up. But a good number of people were posted around the remains of that last stronghold to make sure nothing came out.


The dungeon:
The dungeon is a huge stronghold run by magitek Nazis who both created horrible experiments and had military plans and weaponry for waging war across the world. Their stronghold was built to withstand pretty much anything... until a necromancer wiped out the Nazis nation, converted the peasants into wraiths and wights, and sent the truly massive number of undead into the dungeon to kill its inhabitants.

It's like Tomb of Horrors meets Bioshock except someone sent in a bunch of zombies to kill the inhabitants and set off the traps before you come in. Your job it to wipe out any undead that might have survived the traps, and disable any traps that weren't jammed up with destroyed undead. If there are survivors, they are liable to be pretty tough or have some way of surviving the undead sent in to kill them.

[Serpentine]

Well, it depends a lot on what sort of a dungeon it is. Some examples from my own campaign:
Temple of the Trickster God
One problem I always have when building dungeons is how do I justify it being there?It was a temple of a trickster god, designed by him and/or his worshippers as a focus of worship and as a testing gauntlet for his would-be clergy.

or how do I keep it from being cliche?Wasn't really something I was worried about it. I have nothing particularly against cliches, so long as they're done well. In any case, I just focussed on its use as a testing ground for the Chaotic and the clever.

why is a dungeon in the middle of god knows where?It used to be near a community that was a core of the god's worship. That has since dispersed.

why does it have these creatures crammed inside it?A few wandered in of their own accord, but most were put there 'specially by the worshippers - or, more recently, the god. Many have made some sort of agreement with the god. Others have been his victims. They have been sustained through divine force.

Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already?It has been. Several times. However, the god has a personal interest in it, and keeps on coming back to reset it. There's usually enough time between visitors that he can retrieve any particular items from it - sometimes well after the "thief's" own demise.

Morndrax's Labyrinth
One problem I always have when building dungeons is how do I justify it being there?A minotaur turned up, chatted up some kobolds, and made a deal with them to build him a labyrinth in return for his protection.

or how do I keep it from being cliche?Again, it wasn't something I was worried about. And, again, I just focussed on its purpose as a big ol' head-screw and culler of the weak.

why is a dungeon in the middle of god knows where?This was in a position far enough from roads and civilisation that it would be unlikely to be come across accidentally, but close enough to lure people in.
why does it have these creatures crammed inside it?The kobolds keep it constantly stocked, cared for and upgraded. Some of the creatures were brought in 'specially, while others just moved in and have been allowed to stay so long as they don't bother Morndrax.

Why hasn't the freaking thing been robbed already?Because noone tough enough has taken down Morndrax - or if someone dough enough has turned up, he managed to make his escape and have his kobolds rebuild after they left. Basically, because it's well and truly occupied.

[havocfett]

One of the types of dungeons I'm doing are temples to the god of evolution and adaptation.

They're actually empty until you step into the basement, at which point the god rips the information of how powerful you are out of the fabric of the universe and generates a slightly-above level dungeon for you to go through. Including treasure, magic items and possibly retroactively important artifacts.

He also stops you from getting out via magic until you find one of the many exits, so it's not exactly always safe for the PCs.

The temples also regenerate themselves from harm and the dangers in the dungeon are either magically created or magically created and then trapped in the dungeon.

The players abused this to save a dying species by realizing that at least six generated in one temple, and then constantly raiding it, kidnapping the species and taking them out of the dungeon until a very confused viable population was formed.

You can either make it so that the god avoided cliches when making the dungeon, or you can revel in the cliches inherent in the idea. Also useful as a plot point generator.

[Winds]

My group just laughs at the insanity of the setups.
"Wait...two locked doors that just lead into each other? Who designed this place?"


In seriousness...dungeons are full of monsters because they need a place to hole up in that makes it hard to send in the standing militia. Likewise, many of these brought or stockpiled treasure there. As to why it's so convoluted, well, with all the baddies it's going to be hard to keep things in good repair, so most of the dead ends would likely be collapsed or otherwise blocked. For things where that doesn't work, there's all the other things above me, and when all else fails, you can just indicate the architect was nuts.

[Swooper]

I think you're doing it the wrong way around.

Don't start with the assumption of a dungeon and then try to figure out what it's like and why it's there. Start with the plot of your game. If your plot requires the PCs to dig into the research of a dead wizard, the logical place to look might be the ruins of his deserted tower. Then you design the tower, with some magical traps still in place, some golems and bound elementals, undead or daemons guarding it, and magical treasure the wizard would logically have owned in places where he'd logically keep it. You now have something that could be described as a dungeon!

[erikun]

I generally choose a theme or plot reason for the dungeon, then design it from there. If it is the hideout for a bunch of elemental-summoners, then what would it have in it? Well, people who can summon (wizards, clerics), guards with a strong elemental theme, and the occasional elemental. The "main" part of the dungeon will be worked, both the summoning area and the path leading up to it, while the surrounding area will probably be far more rough and unworked. This means that you'll have far more common wild inhabitants, along with the occasional escaped elemental and stuff attracted to the heavy magic use (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/etherealFilcher.htm).

So we have: "natural" dungeon or cavern inhabitants, "wild" elementals, the occasional creature attracted to the magic use, cultists, half-elemental brutes, and bonded/summoned elementals. Traps are unlikely in the main area, but secret doors into the surrounding caverns are likely and once you get outside the main chambers, natural hazards can be anywhere. It sounds like I should have plenty to challange a party.

[Mastikator]

Some possible ways to deal with "why is it in the middle of nowhere".

The dungeon may be incredibly old and the landscape has changed since it was built. In the previous landscape it made perfect sense.

There may have been surrounding buildings that justify the purpose of the dungeon, but have since been destroyed for whatever reason.
If it's a prison dungeon, military complex or storage vault then there may have been a city around it.

It could be placed in a "nowhere" location to make it hard to find because it guards something very valuable. In this case it should be designed to kill all who enter so they can't tell anyone outside (and thus break the secret).