Help! Has anyone seen this Class?

[Dark Kerman]

Hey, I was just wondering, does anyone know where there is a class for arcane casters, that allows someone to become involved in Quetzls in order to gain divine magic? I can't recall what book it is in, thanks for your help. :smallsmile:

[Greenish]

Rainbow Servant, Complete Divine.

[Dark Kerman]

Thank you kindly! :smallbiggrin: Much appreciated!

[Lateral]

'S nice for Warmages, and I think there's some sort of dispute about whether it gets 6/10 or 10/10 casting. :smallconfused:

[Cog]

'S nice for Warmages, and I think there's some sort of dispute about whether it gets 6/10 or 10/10 casting. :smallconfused:
Strictly RAW, it does get 10/10. The table shows a more limited advancement, though. IIRC, that conflict crops up elsewhere in the same book, which to me makes it look even more like a copypasta error.

[Lateral]

I know the strict RAW is 10/10, because text trumps table, but RAI is less clear.

[HalfDragonCube]

I know the strict RAW is 10/10, because text trumps table, but RAI is less clear.

It really depends on how much of a beating you can take from the DM.

[Lateral]

Meh. With 6/10, it's insanely bad, even for Warmages. With 10/10, it's still only a boost to an already bad class. It pushes them up to Cleric level, sure, but after around 15 levels of sucking hard.

[HalfDragonCube]

Meh. With 6/10, it's insanely bad, even for Warmages. With 10/10, it's still only a boost to an already bad class. It pushes them up to Cleric level, sure, but after around 15 levels of sucking hard.

Early entry shenanigans deal with that.

Some of that, anyway.

Maybe a quick fix for it would be to have one new spell level of cleric casting added to your spell list for each level of Rainbow Servant you take, starting at being allowed the orisons at the first level and gaining the ability to learn 9th-level cleric spells (if you could normally cast them) at the the 10th level of Rainbow Servant.

This makes it slightly more useful for lower-level campaigns.

A prestige class where the capstone is the only reason you would take it and you suck beforehand doesn't much sense to me.

[Maho-Tsukai]

It's better with Dread Necromancers. Yeah, the class can't be used for evil characters as-is but I once refluffed it as an evil-based class that was based on chromatic dragons as appose to Quatals/however you spell that. It's actually VERY easy to shift the flavor from good qoatals to evil chromatic dragons. Just swap all "good-ish" powers to "evil-ish,"(So detect evil becomes detect good. I left the "lawful" abilities in tact since Tiamat is Lawful Evil and thus I thought it was a flavor fit as-is.)change the coatal fluff to chromatic dragon fluff and refluff the feathered wings as dragon wings. Since there are already other PrCs that have flavor regarding dragons granting divine magic the refluff is not all that odd and lets face it, a Dread Necromancer with the whole cleric list is the ultimate necromancer, bar none...but anyway...One could claim that the refluff makes it even more broken(as DNs are actually a good class(tier 3) and giving them the whole cleric list to spontaneously cast pretty much bumbs the DN to a tier 1.) so good luck asking for that refluff if you plan to use it on a DN. An evil warmage may be allowed the refluff, though, since unlike the tier 3 DN the warmage kinda sucks without such cheese.

Oh, and if anybody is interested in seeing the full "Chromatic Servant" just drop me a PM.

[mootoall]

Meh, I like my Dread Necromancers pumping undead HD with Undead Mastery. The real reason for giving a DN this PrC is delicious DMM with Cha based casting. Mmmmmmm.

[Benly]

It's better with Dread Necromancers. Yeah, the class can't be used for evil characters as-is but I once refluffed it as an evil-based class that was based on chromatic dragons as appose to Quatals/however you spell that.

You don't even need to do that. A LN or TN character qualifies for both Dread Necro and Rainbow Servant.

[mootoall]

You don't even need to do that. A LN or TN character qualifies for both Dread Necro and Rainbow Servant. Another excellent point. Moreover, if you're gonna refluff something, do Dread Necromancer and be done with alignment restrictions for base classes.

[HalfDragonCube]

It's better with Dread Necromancers. Yeah, the class can't be used for evil characters as-is but I once refluffed it as an evil-based class that was based on chromatic dragons as appose to Quatals/however you spell that. It's actually VERY easy to shift the flavor from good qoatals to evil chromatic dragons. Just swap all "good-ish" powers to "evil-ish,"(So detect evil becomes detect good. I left the "lawful" abilities in tact since Tiamat is Lawful Evil and thus I thought it was a flavor fit as-is.)change the coatal fluff to chromatic dragon fluff and refluff the feathered wings as dragon wings. Since there are already other PrCs that have flavor regarding dragons granting divine magic the refluff is not all that odd and lets face it, a Dread Necromancer with the whole cleric list is the ultimate necromancer, bar none...but anyway...One could claim that the refluff makes it even more broken(as DNs are actually a good class(tier 3) and giving them the whole cleric list to spontaneously cast pretty much bumbs the DN to a tier 1.) so good luck asking for that refluff if you plan to use it on a DN. An evil warmage may be allowed the refluff, though, since unlike the tier 3 DN the warmage kinda sucks without such cheese.

Oh, and if anybody is interested in seeing the full "Chromatic Servant" just drop me a PM.

Like the paladin variant classes?

The only part of the class that needs a look at when refluffing is the Air domain.

[Amphetryon]

In addition to the Rainbow Warsnake and the Dread Rainbow, I believe a Beguiling Rainbow (Beguiler based Rainbow Servant) is possible, and arguably the most powerful option among the list-casters.

[HalfDragonCube]

In addition to the Rainbow Warsnake and the Dread Rainbow, I believe a Beguiling Rainbow (Beguiler based Rainbow Servant) is possible, and arguably the most powerful option among the list-casters.

I thought they were referred to as Buigbows?

Yeah, casting cleric-style better than a cleric and being a party-face skill-monkey must be great fun.

[mootoall]

Well, the beguiler loses out on his very sexy skill list/points in that way ... However, it does combine two fantastic lists.

[Eldariel]

Well, the beguiler loses out on his very sexy skill list/points in that way ... However, it does combine two fantastic lists.

I do prefer Cha-based castings for stacking Turning.

[Greenish]

Strictly RAW, it does get 10/10. The table shows a more limited advancement, though. IIRC, that conflict crops up elsewhere in the same book, which to me makes it look even more like a copypasta error.I seem to recall that none of C.Divine's PrCs mentions losing caster levels, regardless of what their table says.

Meh, I like my Dread Necromancers pumping undead HD with Undead Mastery. The real reason for giving a DN this PrC is delicious DMM with Cha based casting. Mmmmmmm.Needs some trickery to turn DN's spells divine, though.

[mootoall]

Hmm, I read somewhere that they were added as divine spells somewhere ... Probably wasn't a reliable thing though, since, though it was never disputed, it was lost in the RAW vs. RAI 6/10 casting debate, and was prolly just overlooked.

[Greenish]

Hmm, I read somewhere that they were added as divine spells somewhere ... Ah, you're right, the spells are added as divine spells if there aren't arcane versions of them on wiz or bard lists.

[Zaq]

I seem to recall that none of C.Divine's PrCs mentions losing caster levels, regardless of what their table says.


Some do, some don't. Black Flame Zealot, Entropomancer, Hospitaler, Shining Blade of Heironeous, and Void Disciple all mention losing caster levels in both text and table. Rainbow Servant, Sacred Fist, and Seeker of the Misty Isle all have tables that mention lost casting, but text that does not.

[JKTrickster]

Theoretically, can't you also just go in as a Wizard or a Sorcerer even? Why does everyone only recommend Rainbow Servant for those 3 classes?

Also I think by RAI it was meant as a 6/10 casting PrC. It is under "Moderate Casting" category in the book.

[Tvtyrant]

I thought they were referred to as Buigbows?

Yeah, casting cleric-style better than a cleric and being a party-face skill-monkey must be great fun.

I call them Shadowsnake Servants myself. Sounds cooler, works in the theme.


Theoretically, can't you also just go in as a Wizard or a Sorcerer even? Why does everyone only recommend Rainbow Servant for those 3 classes?

Also I think by RAI it was meant as a 6/10 casting PrC. It is under "Moderate Casting" category in the book.

Because for a wizard you would have to go buy Cleric scrolls to learn them, and as a Sorc you lose Sorc spells to learn them, while as one of the aforementioned classes you can cast spontaneously from the entire Cleric list. Basically their mechanics are meant for a small list and this gives them a huge one.

[Forged Fury]

Theoretically, can't you also just go in as a Wizard or a Sorcerer even? Why does everyone only recommend Rainbow Servant for those 3 classes?
Because those 3 classes are "list casters." As long as they have a spell slot of a certain level, they can cast any spell that is on their spell list. While a Wizard/Rainbow Servant would have to decide to prepare Divine Power, the Beguiler/DN/Warmage doesn't have to make that choice, it's always available to them if they can cast that level spell.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Because it adresses weaknesses within those classes

[JKTrickster]

Oh okay I think I understand now. The benefit basically isn't as big, am I correct? It helps out Dread Necro/Warmage/Beguiler more than Wizard/Sorcerer.

Ehh for a Wizard I still think it's kind of worth it. Scrolls don't cost that much and getting 9's in both arcane/divine with no loss is pretty darn good IMO.

EDIT: It says access to the Cleric Spell List: does that mean they use their normal spell casting modifier or must use Wisdom/etc.

And since they are cast as Divine spells, they aren't affected by armor, etc. am I correct?

[Greenish]

It says access to the Cleric Spell List: does that mean they use their normal spell casting modifier or must use Wisdom/etc.They'd use their normal casting stat, since nothing changes that. It doesn't say that they "cast as cleric" or anything the like, only that they add the cleric spells to their spell list.


And since they are cast as Divine spells, they aren't affected by armor, etc. am I correct?You are. Well, the spells that are on wiz or bard lists too are cast as arcane, others are cast as divine (and thus not subject to arcane spell failure chance).

[JKTrickster]

They'd use their normal casting stat, since nothing changes that. It doesn't say that they "cast as cleric" or anything the like, only that they add the cleric spells to their spell list.
You are. Well, the spells that are on wiz or bard lists too are cast as arcane, others are cast as divine (and thus not subject to arcane spell failure chance).

In that case, it's pretty worth it for a Wizard. Just need to pay for the scrolls :smallbiggrin:

[FMArthur]

I love that a character that "only" gets 16th level list-wide spontaneous casting of the entire Cleric list is considered bad here. Even at 20th level, compared to characters who get 9ths you'll still be ridiculously versatile. 6/10 Rainbow Servant doesn't destroy characters.

[Cog]

I love that a character that "only" gets 16th level list-wide spontaneous casting of the entire Cleric list is considered bad here. Even at 20th level, compared to characters who get 9ths you'll still be ridiculously versatile. 6/10 Rainbow Servant doesn't destroy characters.
That by itself wouldn't be a problem, the problem is that you have to take all those lost caster levels first, without much to show for it. You're awesome at 16th level but lame at 15th, which is pretty bad design even if it's not a bad trade.

[Benly]

I love that a character that "only" gets 16th level list-wide spontaneous casting of the entire Cleric list is considered bad here. Even at 20th level, compared to characters who get 9ths you'll still be ridiculously versatile. 6/10 Rainbow Servant doesn't destroy characters.

Nobody's saying that a 6/10 DN 5/RS 10 is a bad character.

However, with 6/10 casting, DN 5/ RS 1 through DN 5/RS 9 are incredibly underperforming and unrewarding. Not a problem if you're starting play at level 15, huge problem if you're playing through.

[FMArthur]

Fair enough. Point taken. It does beg the question of whether or not the game-changing capstone only being a capstone and not say, a progression, is bad design to begin with, though. Just kidding. You and I know there's no question there.

[Benly]

Fair enough. Point taken. It does beg the question of whether or not the game-changing capstone only being a capstone and not say, a progression, is bad design to begin with, though. Just kidding. You and I know there's no question there.

Yeah, if it was actually a progression 0-9, the 6/10 version would be playable.

That said, the 10/10 version is surprisingly playable even without the capstone - the wings are a nice little utility and the three bonus domains are pretty decent. (In particular, Law and Good granting Magic Circles fixes a major flaw in Dread Necro spell list design that makes a huge boost at higher levels.)

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, however, the viability of 6/10 casting dose not matter by RAW since text trumps table and the text gives them 10/10 casting. However, if your DM happens to run things by RAI then it becomes an issue. However, when I used the refluffed version of the class I was allowed 10/10 casting due to it being what the class has by RAW so in the end it depends on your DM to what casting progression it gets.

[Veyr]

Yeah, however, the viability of 6/10 casting dose not matter by RAW since text trumps table and the text gives them 10/10 casting. However, if your DM happens to run things by RAI then it becomes an issue, however, when I used the refluffed version of the class I was allowed 10/10 casting due to it being what the class has by RAW.
He'd have to show what RAI is here, and I think that's probably hard. There might be some CustServ/FAQ statements that can help, maybe. And I've heard something about translated copies of the book fixing either the table or the text; not sure which.

Of course, to "run things by RAI" is, in general, impossible; in this case, RAI is something you might be able to make a case for, but for the most part it's hard, if not impossible, to say. At that point, it's less what the designers intended, and more what the DM wants. Which is good — for most DMs, I suspect that's a great deal better than RAW — but it's not RAI.

[Kylarra]

I believe all but 2 versions (English and one other which I can't remember off the top of my head) have it as 6/10 on the text as well as the table.

[Greenish]

I believe all but 2 versions (English and one other which I can't remember off the top of my head) have it as 6/10 on the text as well as the table.Translators aren't designers though, and may well have taken freedoms with it. I shouldn't be surprised if most of them haven't even heard of "text over table".

[FMArthur]

"Text over table" shouldn't mean anything to a translator, only a player. When they encounter a disparity between them, one of them is in error and it fell to them for their respective language versions to determine which it was - the text isn't any more immune to errors than the table. Both can give them clues as to which was intended, and it went both ways on that one. Text > Table is a rules construct for making the game keep going for the game's players when the writers mess something up.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, and since Wizards is an American company it's safe to say the English version would be closer to what the designers intended then any translation since English is the main language of the country that the makers of the game come from and work in. One could say that it was a text mistake, but unless wizards released an official statement regarding it we cannot claim that the english book was wrong and the translations where correct. Likewise,from years of reading manga and keeping up with manga spoilers I know that translators are not the best source to look to since they can take liberties and are more apt to make mistakes then somebody writing the book in their native language.

[HalfDragonCube]

Where does the notion of 'Text over Table' come from? Just wondering...

[Veyr]

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.(emphasis mine)

From the Errata for the PHB, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).

Also relevant: the primary source for the Rainbow Servant is typically the first place it was printed, which means that even if you're playing in a language where the translator changed it, since the translation is not an Errata, the RAW state that Rainbow Servant is still fullcasting.

[HalfDragonCube]

From the Errata for the PHB, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).

Also relevant: the primary source for the Rainbow Servant is typically the first place it was printed, which means that even if you're playing in a language where the translator changed it, since the translation is not an Errata, the RAW state that Rainbow Servant is still fullcasting.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: