When they no longer fear death

[Donutfiend84]

I allways try to give my players plenty of opportunity for moments of badassery, but it seems its started going to their heads. They talk down to everyone and everything. They do lose when they pick fights with powerful enemies, but I still cannot seem to get them to acknowlege when they are dealing with someone on a whole different power scale. They have the money, and the levels, so resurections seem to remove the fear of death.

If the players no longer fear death, then I needed to find something even worse, but I'm not sure what that is. Any suggestions?

[Talya]

put them up against something powerful enough to TPK them, and trap their souls. Then create a labyrinth inside the soul trap that their souls must fight their way through without gear or backup.

Also, one word - disjunction.

[HalfDragonCube]

Go barghest!

Bargest used Soul Devour!

The PC can no long be raised!

[Ernir]

They do lose when they pick fights with powerful enemies, but I still cannot seem to get them to acknowlege when they are dealing with someone on a whole different power scale.
What usually happens when they "lose"? Does the one who escaped just shell out for true resurrections, or what? :smallconfused:

[HalfDragonCube]

What usually happens when they "lose"? Does the one who escaped just shell out for true resurrections, or what? :smallconfused:

If that is happening they must be going through WBL like butter.

[some guy]

Creatures that drain ability instead of causing ability damage. Wraiths and lamias to name a few.

Rustmonsters or disintegrate their gear.

Or the dripping proboscis of the Everworm. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/10/9/)

[Aharon]

Only works for a good group, obviously:
Not reaching their goal should be punishment enough. They may have enough cash to come back like the afterlife has a revolving door, but all the commoners, experts etc. who died because they failed don't.
Just highlight the fact that it's their fault in RP encounters.

Neutral groups:
Yeah, you survived. It cost you part of your equipment, and lots of your employers adjusted their assessment of your abilities - leading to less prestigious and less well paid jobs.

Evil groups:
You know, being a vampire under the total command of another vampire reall totally sucks. So does having to fulfill a monumentous task for some guy who released your soul from a gem.

[HalfDragonCube]

The only reason rust monsters don't have wings is because then they would be called nerf bats.

[The Glyphstone]

The only reason rust monsters don't have wings is because then they would be called nerf bats.

And because the Rust Dragons ate them all.

[LOTRfan]

Rust Monsters are awesome, if played right. At one point, inspired by the Ecology of the Rust Monster article, I had a death cult gather a large group of rust monsters and prepare to planeshift them into the center of Regulus (the Modron home-cog in Mechanus). The players found out what they were going to be facing in advance, so they had time to plan out what they were going to do to avoid rusting.

[jmelesky]

If the players no longer fear death, then I needed to find something even worse, but I'm not sure what that is. Any suggestions?

They lose a battle, everyone falls unconscious, then they wake up, naked, chained, and digging out salt from the goblin/orc/gnoll/evil baron salt mine.

Depending on their level, you may need to:

chop off the rogue's hands
make the chains adamantine or magical to prevent the barbarian from simply pulling them apart
cripple spontaneous casters with antimagic manacles
place them (each, individually) under a geas requiring them to follow orders and mine salt (or simply "don't try to escape")


Those seem like extraordinary measures, perhaps, but should be within the reach of anyone who can beat the PCs handily in a fight.

Make sure to have the appropriate obnoxious enemy visit them regularly to taunt them.

[Ranos]

If fear isn't working anymore, you can still control them with other emotions. Hate, for example, is very powerful. If you can make a BBEG they absolutely hate, and make him elusive enough to delay a confrontation but present enough to piss them off, you can pretty much get the party to do anything.


They lose a battle, everyone falls unconscious, then they wake up, naked, chained, and digging out salt from the goblin/orc/gnoll/evil baron salt mine.
Why would anyone ever do that ? :smallconfused:
Couldn't you just kill the PCs and spend a few silver pieces out of their loot to hire some actual miners ? People who know what they're doing, don't need half a million GP to keep them restrained, and aren't ticking timebombs ?

[Jack_Simth]

If fear isn't working anymore, you can still control them with other emotions. Hate, for example, is very powerful. If you can make a BBEG they absolutely hate, and make him elusive enough to delay a confrontation but present enough to piss them off, you can pretty much get the party to do anything.


Why would anyone ever do that ? :smallconfused:
Couldn't you just kill the PCs and spend a few silver pieces out of their loot to hire some actual miners ? People who know what they're doing, don't need half a million GP to keep them restrained, and aren't ticking timebombs ?
Oh, definitely. You dominate them all, instead, and put them to work for you...
or just get them all Stoned, and leave them that way.

[Luckmann]

The only reason rust monsters don't have wings is because then they would be called nerf bats.Ba dum tsss.

[HappyBlanket]

chop off the rogue's hands
make the chains adamantine or magical to prevent the barbarian from simply pulling them apart
cripple spontaneous casters with antimagic manacles
place them (each, individually) under a geas requiring them to follow orders and mine salt (or simply "don't try to escape")


I wonder how many spells a mage can cast after losing a tongue and ten fingers.
edit: Okay, admittedly a slave without fingers is somewhat impaired in usage, so this is a pretty silly thing to do. But that's what Chaotic Evil alignments are for.

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder how many spells a mage can cast after losing a tongue and ten fingers.
edit: Okay, admittedly a slave without fingers is somewhat impaired in usage, so this is a pretty silly thing to do. But that's what Chaotic Evil alignments are for.

Exactly how many spells they prepared with Still and Silent Spell metamagics.

[Ellen K]

I like the vampire idea. A ridiculously overpowered vampire could basically enslave them, and would be hard to kill. It sounds like the players need an adventure that's on a larger scale than most, so maybe the vampire has an army at his command. If the players are really as powerful as they seem to think, the vampire could try to be enslaving them into positions as generals of some kind.

Most players don't want to be magically enslaved simply on principle. It sounds like you'll have to do it in such a way as to prevent a player from taking the army for himself, however.

[cfalcon]

I always give the power to "seal" someone's fate to a *group* of clerics of specified deities, working in concert. This is available to lower level organizations. My typical selections are a god of death and a god of life, or anyone who's portfolio deals with fate. I always ensure that at least one good and one evil god's clerics can pull this stunt.

This allows for the PCs to permanently erase (for sure) an enemy, even at levels too low to trap the soul. It also creates a threat of said death should they manage to screw up and TPK versus the wrong enemies, or even have remains captured by enemies with social connections, etc.


The ritual in question isn't a combat thing, and I make it involve several practicing clerics (though not necessarily levelled ones), so it's not trivial or fast, but the threat is still there.

[Undercroft]

I'm fond of doing a TPK and then having the players encounter their old characters as various undead (usually zombies) being used as slave labour by the BBEG.
Puts them in their place when they learn they're nothing by zombie material to the BBEG.


I like the vampire idea. A ridiculously overpowered vampire could basically enslave them, and would be hard to kill. It sounds like the players need an adventure that's on a larger scale than most, so maybe the vampire has an army at his command. If the players are really as powerful as they seem to think, the vampire could try to be enslaving them into positions as generals of some kind.

Most players don't want to be magically enslaved simply on principle. It sounds like you'll have to do it in such a way as to prevent a player from taking the army for himself, however.

i may steal this idea, though i'd be likely to change it so they roll up new characters and have to fight their old selves (who are now minions of evil, etc). Plus you get an excuse to abuse any annoying strategies they used against your monsters

[myancey]

Yeah, I had a party that was doing that. So I started incorporating single encounters into the campaign that would kill 1 to 2 party members. I had three sessions in a row where 2 party members died every session.

The benefit of killing players is threefold.
1) They remember that there is always someone more powerful at the table. (Especially when you wipe an optimized party with a CR of their level).
2) Nothing like forcing players to sell other party members' items so they can afford resurrection. (In my campaign, death comes with either affording resurrection or losing 2 point buy and a level or two of "wealth by character level"). Ex. party is level 12, but give the character level 10 starting gold.
3) They remember that no player is so necessary to the DM that he can't afford to kill them.

I hate it when characters get too cocky.

[Grommen]

Exactly how many spells they prepared with Still and Silent Spell metamagics.

So we can agree. Not many?

I've been successful with the "Try to role play being scared even if you are invincible on paper, cause I'll find something that will stop you. Even if I resort to cheating."

I get good mileage this way.

[Greenish]

So we can agree. Not many?One is enough if it's selected well. Teleport away, Polymorph to something silly, even Alter Self gets you cracking again.

[Edit]: Teleport doesn't even need Stilled.

[FMArthur]

Sounds like it's time to break out that Rise of the Beholder Mages adventure path you've been cooking up. The BBEG is an Illithid Savant chaining Acquire Class Feature with his loyal illithid followers, who worship him for slaying the elder brains and for his ability to actually demonstrate that their minds ascend to a glorious Reunion when consumed by him, because he gains their knowledge and abilities. The Beholder Mages are merely crops for him to harvest for their abilities to use with his eyestalk grafts, manipulating them and doling out the secret lore of the Beholder Mage gradually. The Mind Rape plague and/or rifts to the Far Realm grant these sinister figures a growing army that threatens to engulf the world in darkness.
I'm sure you can come up with the details of it all easily enough. :smallbiggrin:

[Grommen]

One is enough if it's selected well. Teleport away, Polymorph to something silly, even Alter Self gets you cracking again.

[Edit]: Teleport doesn't even need Stilled.

Yaye so he is now elsewhere, with no toung and fingers, and out of spells. How many people are gonna help him?

[Jack_Simth]

Yaye so he is now elsewhere, with no toung and fingers, and out of spells. How many people are gonna help him?
He turns himself into something with a tongue and fingers. With Alter Self, he's got ten minutes/level to find competent help and/or a more permanent solution that he can do with the possibility of verbal and somatic components. Like, say, hiring a cleric for a Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) spell. If he's high enough level for Teleport, he's got an hour and a half once he's at his destination to worry about it.

[HalfDragonCube]

He turns himself into something with a tongue and fingers. With Alter Self, he's got ten minutes/level to find competent help and/or a more permanent solution that he can do with the possibility of verbal and somatic components. Like, say, hiring a cleric for a Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) spell. If he's high enough level for Teleport, he's got an hour and a half once he's at his destination to worry about it.

And how does he cast Alter Self with no method of performing the components?

There is a reason they cut off the tongue and fingers.

[Jack_Simth]

And how does he cast Alter Self with no method of performing the components?

There is a reason they cut off the tongue and fingers.

You seem to forget that the earlier basis of this discussion was:

Exactly how many spells they prepared with Still and Silent Spell metamagics.
Two spells (Teleport and Alter Self) prepared Silent (and stilled, for Alter Self) take care of this problem.

Additionally, Teleport and Alter Self are good choices as safety spells for a usage of Spell Mastery, so he can potentially do it the next day, too.

[HalfDragonCube]

You seem to forget that the earlier basis of this discussion was:

Two spells (Teleport and Alter Self) prepared Silent (and stilled, for Alter Self) take care of this problem.

Additionally, Teleport and Alter Self are good choices as safety spells for a usage of Spell Mastery, so he can potentially do it the next day, too.

Oops, typing a quick post on a Kindle, didn't notice that. Sorry. :smallfrown:

[Donutfiend84]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I love some of the ideas, so I can't wait to try them out. I get that feeling if a single player actually perminently losses a charicter, (i.e. trapped soul) the rest will get the message.

[Tvtyrant]

Have them walk into a city under siege by Clockwork Horrors. They watch a wizard get disjunctioned from the sky by one, and then a group of them disintegrate him. The horrors are backed by golems and animated objects and Effigies, all under the rule of a wizard who hates all life and wants to make the world a new Regulus. The party can simply leave, but the problem will chase them forever as the army attacks city after city until they kill him.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Rei_Jin]

It depends on your characters, and your campaign, and how you DM, but the way I've always seen it is thus;

Levels come and go, Gear is forever

If Billy has built his entire character around being the master of the longsword, and you destroy his awesome longsword or scrap it for its components, he's going to be rather upset. He's also likely to take things a little more seriously.

Just be careful though, as some players can get very angry about this sort of thing, if they feel that a DM is specifically targetting them to make them lose. If they lose on their own, there should be repercussions, but deliberately putting them in a no loss situation where they cannot affect the outcome is bad form.

[Dylaer]

Have them walk into a city under siege by Clockwork Horrors.

Adamantine Horrors - they will teach your PCs fear. Disjunctions! Implosions! Disintegration! Bad CR! They have it all!

[Tvtyrant]

Adamantine Horrors - they will teach your PCs fear. Disjunctions! Implosions! Disintegration! Bad CR! They have it all!
:smallredface: I meant Adamantine, I really did. Stupid clockwork..

[Dylaer]

:smallredface: I meant Adamantine, I really did. Stupid clockwork..

No, you were still right. A Clockwork Horror is as non-specific a term as a Dragon. IIRC, it goes from copper through electrum to platinum and finally adamantine. Watch out though - entaglement screws Adamantine horrors over. They can't make the concentration check to use their SLAs, so they become useless. Give them two levels of monk (which is of course, non-associated, so only +1 CR) for +3 to all saves, and, importantly, Concentration as a class skill

Disclaimer: DO NOT actually do this unless you want to alienate your players. Seriously, no.

[Tvtyrant]

No, you were still right. A Clockwork Horror is as non-specific a term as a Dragon. IIRC, it goes from copper through electrum to platinum and finally adamantine. Watch out though - entaglement screws Adamantine horrors over. They can't make the concentration check to use their SLAs, so they become useless. Give them two levels of monk (which is of course, non-associated, so only +1 CR) for +3 to all saves, and, importantly, Concentration as a class skill

Disclaimer: DO NOT actually do this unless you want to alienate your players. Seriously, no.

Well if they are a high enough level it would work; just use disintegrate most of the time rather then the two other options. Disjunction is good for pulling NPC wizards out of the sky and explaining why the city hasn't broken the siege.

[Dylaer]

But then you run into the problem of Intelligence scores. The DM should play any NPC as intelligent as they are. With INT 17 (IIRC), adamantine horrors would be more than smart enough to use their disjunction and implosion abilities constantly.

Plus, if they were high enough level to defeat it, then the CR is certainly below their level, and they get disproportionately low XP for the encounter.

[invinible]

Torture is worst than death.

[DarkestKnight]

I would suggest focusing on one player to make your point. If you can get one back in line, the others usually follow suit.

for example I was in a group, as a heal optimized cleric of pelor, where a few of the characters were getting a little power silly. We encountered home brewed Necrons (think terminators with disintegrate staffs) and ended up being banished to a pure white light plane, where a guy passed on greetings to me from his servant, Pelor. The summary of this is that make sure your pc's know that there is always a bigger fish in the pond and skin wearing robots that want to resurrect dead gods are a quick way to get that point across.

I also suggest planeshifting the party to hell and have the demon lords cast dice for their grubby souls.

[krai]

Humiliation is always a good alternative to death, if a player is turned into a Schnauzer in front of a large audience people will think that is funny. Having NPCs refer to him as "that guy who got turned into a doggie" can be worse to the player then death would be.

[Ozreth]

...then kill one of them? Whoever does something totally stupid should pay the consequences, or else it's an even bigger game of make believe than it was to begin with. There needs to be risk vs. reward, and you need to follow through with both as the DM.

If there is no chance of a player actually dying then whats the point of playing and overcoming challenges as a team?

[HalfDragonCube]

Torture is worst than death.

... You do realise that is completely useless against PCs? :smallconfused:

Sure, some of them can be taken away and given a daily dose of pain, but there us little point.

[invinible]

... You do realise that is completely useless against PCs? :smallconfused:

Sure, some of them can be taken away and given a daily dose of pain, but there us little point.

I was thinking more along the lines of because the players were so cocky that others sneak out with their hard earn treasure as they are bragging about earning it.

[Toofey]

To the OP:

You need to give them priorities other than their own well being. Figure out a way to interest them in a situation etc... (even if it's a matter of maintaining their own holdings) and have them deal with the threats facing that. Make those threats aware of them and they'll be chasing them for some time at the very least.

[Rejakor]

Get them to take an interest in the situations. Roleplay NPCs more. Put them in situations where their actions can doom (being doomed is sometimes worse than being dead) hundreds or thousands of people or do horrible things to them.

I once broke a player by having a refugee come up and beg him for money or bread.

We literally had to end the session there.


-

Otherwise, make a really terrifying horrible disgusting dungeon. You can't teleport in this place. Really learn to describe. Get out your thesaurus. Have terrifying things in there.. not even mechanically, necessarily. A wailing that chips off wis points. Crawling young girl zombies with severed tongues, ears, eyes, fingers, and lower torso/legs. A spider that whips out and grabs and drags into a hole in the wall (it's 'lair') one of the party members, and while he's being grappled and ripped into (remember - description) his fellow party members are pushing through webs and making str checks to move at half speed, and getting desperate as he's getting eaten and they can't get to him, and then they do and kill the spider but they don't really feel better about it as all they did was kill one monstrous spider that on reflection wasn't that threatening.

And then have the guy who got bit start making (hard) saves. For 2 poisons, and a disease, that need CL checks to remove. If they can't remove them, he starts shaking and shivering, losing dex points, and can't keep up (remember; description). So now they need to carry him and there's a bit of an undercurrent of 'don't leave me behind' and he's not strong enough to hang on so they need to make a rope harness (could fall off at the worst time - better hope they roll well on that Use Rope) or have someone carry him (can't fight, arms full). They haven't even run into a colossal golem or something and **** is already going badly for them. And then they get lost. Magical effects or shifting tunnels - don't dm fiat this, like everything, make it a challenge and roll for it etc. Creepy things like a tide of rats running past, not stopping, just fleeing. Eyes, watching them. Carvings in the wall that have holes in them that could be used to watch them from...

And then they find the magical doodad they came for, and it's in a big room on a stone pillar, indiana jones style, crap and lichen and darkness and horror and evil crawling through the room, you describe it as the most terrifying and horrifying room you can imagine, soot blackened walls spattered with dark growths seeping black liquid into the runnels covering the floor etc etc. The actual object is a creepy twisted stone statue of some kind of otherworldly horror, all tentacles and teeth covered in rotting black lichen.

So, they're like 'holy ****, boss battle'. And they reach out to take it.. and you draw it out... and out... and then there's a noise, and a rush of warm wind echoed with decay, and.. nothing.

Eventually they find their way out of the place, shaken, frightened.

Then next session you run a dungeon with magically dark rooms with paths around boiling water filled pits, and absurd indiana jones style traps, and fire bats, and friendly local humanoid tribes, and a big boss monster at the end that's a giant animated statue or something... not easy, but still fun and interesting and not horrifying. And they'll be, from then on, a little bit more wary. Knowing that at any time for little reason, things can get terrifying.

Hell, if it works well, use that as the jumping off point to change the campaign into a more horror themed dealio.

[Dylaer]

... You do realise that is completely useless against PCs? :smallconfused:

Sure, some of them can be taken away and given a daily dose of pain, but there us little point.

Torture: Make a fort/will save or go insane.

[Rejakor]

Nope. If they're already in the metagaming 'woo we're the best' mindset, heavyhanded attempts to make them empathize with their characters like torture or slavery or whatever will absolutely not cut it.

[Dylaer]

My point was that the threat of insanity - and hence becoming an NPC - can often be more effective than the threat of death. I mean, a dead character is dead, but an insane character is a possible antagonist, particularly one that's optimized as a PC.

[Rejakor]

Too subtle, at this point.

You need something nice and immediate to drive home that their characters are real and that horrible things could totally happen to them.

Immediate fear, and not of the 'big numbers' variety is the absolute best for that. If they're dying all over the place, these guys aren't really thinking long term or tactically, so insanity is just 'dm fiat takin' away mah charaktur'

[enigmatime]

Too subtle, at this point.

You need something nice and immediate to drive home that their characters are real and that horrible things could totally happen to them.

Immediate fear, and not of the 'big numbers' variety is the absolute best for that. If they're dying all over the place, these guys aren't really thinking long term or tactically, so insanity is just 'dm fiat takin' away mah charaktur'

Is it possible for you to make the really long thing you described in to an actual dungeon? Like, seriously? I'd really like to use that, but I'm not all that great at determining all the technical details. It would be much appreciated. (you would receive much praise)

To the OP: I believe there is something out there from 3 ed called Elder Horrors or something. It has a bunch of stuff that would scare the living daylights out of any cocky player.

[Rejakor]

I played in an elder horrors style game once.. don't know if it was THE elder horrors, but there was certainly insanity and brainworms and fatalities... eventually people just started bringing a stack of character sheets to the game.. death became 'meh'. Game ended shortly after.

---------

What, you mean with like a map and descriptions and numbered rooms? Uh, I probably could, but it would take me a while.

Or do you just mean technical details as in stats and effects? I could make a list of those a lot quicker.

[enigmatime]

What, you mean with like a map and descriptions and numbered rooms? Uh, I probably could, but it would take me a while.

Or do you just mean technical details as in stats and effects? I could make a list of those a lot quicker.

Preferrably the first one, but what ever is more convenient for you. I don't plan on using this for awhile. :smalltongue:

[Seth62]

Have a deity cult or have a god attack them preferably a death god so true resurrection could not work if you say so.

[opticalshadow]

i had a fearless party once, they could get though most quests, or use some cheese to get pas tothers (though i host my games with one rule on the table on the topic of whats allowed and whats not, ill genreally allow anything, but remember your enemies have more numbers, and the cababilities to have far mroe power, and anythign you can do so can they. so if my party starts tele tagging sleeping creatures, they will get the notice of a powerful archmage who doesnt like compition)

i solved my problem by expanding it on the campaign, and by making death not the part to fear, but rather, exsisting. a new bbeg came to be, a nameless creature that stalked them, never around long enough to do much more then amuse it before making their lives hells, he gave them the fear to start prepareing defencive camps, checking doors, and start making more informed decisions about alot of things. most of all, because he would appear randomly thoughtout encounters (normally when their level of cockyness got to high again) each encounter had to be fought both within the game, and in their minds.

a Illithiad Lich, of epic level, who had assumed the level of a demi god (and in fact had his own small plane, and religion) he was trying to summon a powerful anchient and forgotten creature the neverwinter dragon (named because thats where its remains lie) but doing so he needed the souls from many dragons and of every type, the pc's happend to be powerful enough to help lead an army, and he wanted them.

i played my games with notes that iw ould pass (when i wrote one person a note i gave everyone a note, if you got a blank note you are instructed to pretend to write something and pass it back, this way no one knew who was getting info, it made everyone actually treat each other like other npc's rather hten 5 friends at a table playing a game) it would ask them for checks or whispered messages (via spell) he constently tried to convert them to his side, giving them tempary bonouses as incentives (enchantments to weapons unlocking a new spell and spell level for an encounter) or dropping impossibly hard creatures on them when they were steam rolling, and before their death slay the creature outright, alwys proving he alone had far more power then they could. he even managed to (with no spells, pure role play) get 4 of the party members to outright start fighting (some gurads wandering the area found them and arrested them all, convinced the cave they were in had a curse and drove them mad)

this was going to be their final encounter (or the neverwinter dragon, if they let him get summoned((which would have put the campaign into the 20's))

i found the key wasnt to fear tehm with death, but fear them with a power they could not defeat, that could crush them, but always reminded them of their mortality. it made them start doing things they never would have before (such as the wizard prepareing far more defencive magic for rest, or actually useing utility magic) the rouge fully using soem long lost skills. they felt the world was dangerous again, this creture would give them exotic things to fight, things they would nromally not find, things they couldnt begin to prepare for. the game got hard for them, and i didnt let up, not because im evil, but they outright loved it. i was told how much they enjoy a true arch nemisis. how awesome it was to see this side of dnd. it lowered their cockyness alot, and they started having fun just sitting at the camp fire trying to use knowladge check to figure out what he was, or where he came from, trying to make plans for things they could only imagine. it really felt like watching an r.a salvatore novel unfold, the way they played from then on was amazing. its a shame due to relocating of two members, the campaign ended far earlier then i would have liked.