Twin Hooks (3.5 Exotic Weapon, PEACH)

[LOTRfan]

So, I'm flipping through Oriental Adventures to try to find the Shuang Gou swords for an NPC using AaronRZ's Shaolin Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11012114&postcount=1) PrC, and a I realize that Oriental Adventures doesn't have stats for this weapon. I've attempted to create it here, as an exotic weapon.
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http://www.gungfu.com/media/products/swords/other-swords/swords-other-swords-fantasy-a-twin-hook.jpg

One-handed melee Weapons
{table=head]Exotic Weapons | Cost | Dmg (S) | Dmg (M) | Critical | Range Increment | Weight | Type
Shuang Gou | 75 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | x2/19-20 | --- | 2 lb. | Slashing or Piercing[/table]

Shuang Gou: The Shuang Gou, or Twin Hooks, are weapons usually used in pairs. They are hooked swords forged from steel, and are extremely versatile. If two are used together by a proficient user, they are treated as light weapons instead of one-handed weapons when it is beneficial, and the penalty for wielding the two together is lessened by an additional 2 (so, proficient wielders with the Two Weapon Fighting feat take no penalty for using them together). In addition, by linking two blades together by the hooked parts, a proficient wielder can treat them as a single two-handed reach weapon (this incurs a -4 penalty, however). Alone, these weapons grant a +2 bonus on both tripping and disarming. If Rizban's Parrying Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7561842&postcount=1) are being used, the weapon grants a +2 bonus on parrying rolls.

[Popertop]

I like it.

I think it could stand having a crit range of 19-20 or even 18-20

[Wyntonian]

I agree with Popertop. 19-20 sounds good. It's not really much better than a longsword, and it does take a feat to learn to use.

[classy one]

Hook swords already exist in Eberron. Specifically you can find them in secrets of Sarlona.

[Deth Muncher]

I like it. I'mma look at the Sarlona ones, but if not, I'mma use these for my Kabal character.

[Garryl]

Given the hooks on the ends, you'd think those weapons would be useable for tripping or would grant a +2 bonus on disarm attempts.

The ability to be treated as light weapons should be specified to only be where beneficial. There are many cases where one-handed weapons are better than light weapons, such as disarming and Power Attack. You may also wish to let these weapons be used with Weapon Finesse, similar to a rapier, since their intended method of being used is a Dexterity-based fighting style (two-weapon fighting).

[Solaris]

Given the hooks on the ends, you'd think those weapons would be useable for tripping or would grant a +2 bonus on disarm attempts.

The ability to be treated as light weapons should be specified to only be where beneficial. There are many cases where one-handed weapons are better than light weapons, such as disarming and Power Attack. You may also wish to let these weapons be used with Weapon Finesse, similar to a rapier, since their intended method of being used is a Dexterity-based fighting style (two-weapon fighting).

This, plus I recall reading from people who use these weapons in reality that the 'link them together and swing them around' plan ends really badly. You know, about how you'd actually expect it to go.

[LOTRfan]

I like it.

I think it could stand having a crit range of 19-20 or even 18-20


I agree with Popertop. 19-20 sounds good. It's not really much better than a longsword, and it does take a feat to learn to use.

Alright, then. 19-20 it is.


Hook swords already exist in Eberron. Specifically you can find them in secrets of Sarlona.

Aw, man.... I have that book, too. With all the Monk feats, I should've checked the equipment section, too. :smallfrown:


I like it. I'mma look at the Sarlona ones, but if not, I'mma use these for my Kabal character.

Once you compare them, could you please post the results here?


Given the hooks on the ends, you'd think those weapons would be useable for tripping or would grant a +2 bonus on disarm attempts.

The ability to be treated as light weapons should be specified to only be where beneficial. There are many cases where one-handed weapons are better than light weapons, such as disarming and Power Attack. You may also wish to let these weapons be used with Weapon Finesse, similar to a rapier, since their intended method of being used is a Dexterity-based fighting style (two-weapon fighting).

I'll add in those changes. :smallsmile:


This, plus I recall reading from people who use these weapons in reality that the 'link them together and swing them around' plan ends really badly. You know, about how you'd actually expect it to go.

Perhaps I should add a -4 penalty when they are used this way, then?

Thanks for the PEACHes, guys.

[Popertop]

This, plus I recall reading from people who use these weapons in reality that the 'link them together and swing them around' plan ends really badly. You know, about how you'd actually expect it to go.

I don't think the weapon deserves a penalty when used in this fashion, we all know how well trying to apply real-world physics to D&D goes.

IMO, if you are spending an exotic weapon feat, you should get a pretty hefty benefit, and being able to switch between twf and reach without penalty doesn't seem very outrageous at all.

[Solaris]

I don't think the weapon deserves a penalty when used in this fashion, we all know how well trying to apply real-world physics to D&D goes.

IMO, if you are spending an exotic weapon feat, you should get a pretty hefty benefit, and being able to switch between twf and reach without penalty doesn't seem very outrageous at all.

You're right, we should completely ignore reality when making D&D stuff, how silly of me. Next you'll be saying we should chuck game balance and verisimilitude out the window too.

Yes, you're spending a feat. It's already better at TWF than anything else, plus it can trip and disarm. They deal 1d8 damage each with a sword's critical threat range, and they function as light weapons where beneficial (so finessable) but have the benefits of being one-handed weapons (so no penalties for the trip and disarm). This weapon compares well to the spiked chain, the benchmark for what an exotic weapon should be. It doesn't also need the ability to get a 10-foot reach without penalty. That makes it better than the spiked chain.

[Siosilvar]

Previous thread on the swords. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57913)

Note the thread is both locked and 2-3 years old.

[Popertop]

You're right, we should completely ignore reality when making D&D stuff, how silly of me. Next you'll be saying we should chuck game balance and verisimilitude out the window too.

I didn't say we should ignore reality.

To be fair, casters ignore it enough, melee is going to have to ignore it a fair bit to even be in the same universe (and tbh, if we allowed the reach without a penalty, melee still wouldn't be in the same universe)

Most of the rules don't approach reality, there are well documented issues regarding the combination of reality with D&D.


This weapon compares well to the spiked chain, the benchmark for what an exotic weapon should be. It doesn't also need the ability to get a 10-foot reach without penalty. That makes it better than the spiked chain.

my bad, I thought the spiked chain had a reach of 20 feet, I must be thinking about large size.

I would allow it with the reach without penalty, maybe later I would think one up, but if he doesn't want to allow it, then that's him.

[Solaris]

I didn't say we should ignore reality.

To be fair, casters ignore it enough, melee is going to have to ignore it a fair bit to even be in the same universe (and tbh, if we allowed the reach without a penalty, melee still wouldn't be in the same universe)

Most of the rules don't approach reality, there are well documented issues regarding the combination of reality with D&D.

Yes, casters and melee at higher levels are, for all practical purposes, playing entirely different games. This is why I'm discussing the weapon and the weapon only as it compares with other exotic weapons. Balancing melee with casters is far beyond the purview of a single weapon.

Of course the game has well-documented issues with regards to how the rules work when compared to reality, that's why the game has a DM. His common sense and flair for the dramatic is what transforms the game from being a rather dull exercise into something actually entertaining.


my bad, I thought the spiked chain had a reach of 20 feet, I must be thinking about large size.

I would allow it with the reach without penalty, maybe later I would think one up, but if he doesn't want to allow it, then that's him.

If you allowed it reach without penalty, then why ever get a spiked chain?

[revquigley]

In Secrets of Sarlona: It does 1d6 if you're piercing, 1d8 if slashing. It has +2 to disarm, mentions nothing of trip. Hooking them together as a reach weapon is only possible with another feat, Flying Tiger.

[LOTRfan]

I think I prefer my version, then. Compared to the original:

1d8 damage, whether it be piercing or slashing

+2 on both trip and disarm attempts

Ability to make them form a reach weapon without a feat, albeit with a penalty.

Thanks for posting a general idea of the Sarlona version! :smallsmile:

[revquigley]

Haha, no problem. Did you ever specify the action required to hook them? If you're not gonna have a feat for that, then probably at least a standard action.

Alternatively, you could also take penalties to being "disarmed" yourself- not entirely disarmed, but the swords unhooked by the opponent, sending the unheld one flying.

[Mulletmanalive]

Just to stick my oar in, these things are actually surprisingly light compared to regular swords, so perhaps the damage need not be so high, just a thought.

It's worth noting that if you get to retain all the pimping secondary abilities of the weapons, it would probably actually be worth anothe feat for the reached usesm even with how few feats you get. Thow in a redution to the reach penalty and it's virtually a no-brainer.

You know that the way it's written, at present, there's nothing to stop me running around with four of these things, effectively dual wielding better spiked chains, right?

Edit: I love these weapons, though i suck with them something fierce, and i'd so use these, i just think that they've actually outstripped the Spiked Chain, which i've always disliked anyway...[not that it's bad, i've just used the weapon it's supposed to be and they really don't work like that]