Trying 4ed for the first time.

[d13]

(Obligatory TVTropes warning)
Yeah, Exactly What It Says On The Tin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin)

A friend of mine's group imploded, and he is trying to form a new one. Starting point: D&D 4ed.

I'm pretty adamant on playing a Halfling Paladin (just think about it for a second), focused on Charisma (duh).

I have but two requests:
1) What should I watch out for? What should I expect? What should I not expect? What are THE BIGGEST (rule) CHANGES I might find on the transition from 3.5?

2) A little help with character building. We are 4 players. 2 of us are pretty experienced, another one is the first time at roleplaying games in general, and it's my first time with 4ed, and I don't want to drag the more experienced players down.
The Halfling Paladin bit is unchangeable, but any help with power selections, and a little "how to" will be appreciated. Bear in mind that I only have access to PHB 1 and 2, but with a little luck can get almost any printed book.

Thank you in advance :smallsmile:

[Reluctance]

#1: Divine Power is important for paladins. The PHB1 version is pretty lackluster.

#2: Saving throws are the biggest change (3.5 save categories are now defenses, 4e saves effectively measure duration), but the little things are the ones that can really trip you up. 5' steps now consume your move action, rather than being free movement. Standing up from prone does not provoke opportunity attacks. It'll help a lot to go over the basic action and condition rules.

#3: Make power cards and/or a cheat sheet. Most of your abilities are far more self-contained than what a 3.5 character would get, so it makes things easier to have the full text right in front of you.

#4: I've never played a paladin, so I can't say what are good power/feat choices. Still, once he hits play, the rest is all teamwork and tactics.

[DontEatRawHagis]

I have but two requests:
1) What should I watch out for? What should I expect? What should I not expect? What are THE BIGGEST (rule) CHANGES I might find on the transition from 3.5QUOTE]

#1 You will probably generate attribute scores via Point/Buy or Array(Rolling might be allowed but unbalances play a lot in 4e).

#2 Skills range are no longer added to via skill points, instead half of your level is added on instead.

#3 Use rope is no longer a skill

#4 Skill list is consolidated and if your DM is very open you could use thievery for a multitude of checks. The whole point is similiar to Fallout 3's conversation system, if you have arcana as a skill for instance you might be able to detect magic/perform a small bit of magic/Debate theories with a master. Thievery is more versitile as it can be used for bartering/appraising. There is definetely a lot more wiggle room. There are entire posts dedicated to Sneak(in combat) on Wizards.com that I suggest most people to glance over, even if they are not rogues.

#5 Combat is a lot easier than 3.5e as well as balanced.

[QUOTE]2) A little help with character building. We are 4 players. 2 of us are pretty experienced, another one is the first time at roleplaying games in general, and it's my first time with 4ed, and I don't want to drag the more experienced players down.
The Halfling Paladin bit is unchangeable, but any help with power selections, and a little "how to" will be appreciated. Bear in mind that I only have access to PHB 1 and 2, but with a little luck can get almost any printed book.

Look at which abilities utilize Cha and int(Think thats the Gnome attribute selection they changed it recently so I don't know).

[erikun]

- Take a look at a handful of powers before selecting your ability scores. The class says "Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma" are important, but you can easily ignore one or two of them with careful planning. I've played a Gnome Paladin focusing on INT/CHA, and he was probably one of my best characters mechanically. (Hide armor + high INT was actually better than Plate armor.) The main thing you loose with CHA-only focus is you really have very few Lay-on-Hands uses, which is based on WIS.

- Divine Power is very nice, but the main thing it seems to benefit is the STR/WIS Paladins. Still, having the ability to mark two enemies at once is very valuable. The extra domain powers is very sexy as well, and mimics the versatility found in 3.5e Cleric domains (not as powerful, though).

- Multiclassing can be feat-expensive, but quite beneficial. Cleric multiclass + Multiclass Utility will give you a minor-action heal once per day, along with something like the Cleric's Consecrated Ground, healing allies and damaging enemies nearby based on your CHA. Doing the same thing with Rogue can get you Stealth training as part of the feats, and give you the ability to move your full speed out in the open and remain hidden. Sorcerer multiclass can net you Platinum Scales, adding STR to all your defenses for the whole encounter: very nice for a STR/CHA Paladin.

- While Halflings are DEX/CHA focused, there is nothing keeping them from focusing on other stats. As with the example above, a Halfling focusing on Strength and Charisma will work out just fine.

- One of the biggest changes to 4e will be the terminology switch. For example, a Saving Throw is a d20 roll to shake off status effects, with a 10+ roll succeeding. There are very, very few things that add to the Saving Throw roll. On the other hand, something like the Reflex Defense is a static number like your AC, and is what spells like Fireball roll against.

- The other big change is that, rather than having standard melee attacks and several abilities that are limited to a daily use, you have a handful of abilities that act as standard melee attacks and have ability riders with them. The PHB Paladin, specifically, has one attack that penalizes the enemy -4 if they don't attack the Paladin, one attack that grants themselves temporary HP, and one attack that deals extra damage if they marked (are focusing on, basically) the target. The Paladin, in particular, tends to be good at handing out healing, temp HP, and defense bonuses to allies.

[Aron Times]

Your powers are split between Strength and Charisma, while Wisdom makes certain powers better.

If you want to be able to use any power in the PHB 1, I suggest the following stats:

Strength 16
Constitution 12
Dexterity 8 + 2
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12
Charisma 16 + 2

These stats assume the default 22 point buy, including the halfling's racial bonuses.

Since you're limited to the PHB1, you can drop strength and focus exclusively on charisma-based powers, but the opposite is not true. If you want to focus exclusively on Charisma, you can set your strength to 8 and your Wisdom to 16. This will make your charisma-based powers more powerful, but you can't effectively use strength-based powers.

And finally, don't forget that you don't have to be Lawful Good anymore.

[d13]

Thank you for all the advice!

It just happens that a friend of mine has Divine Power, so I can use that book to build my character.
For what I've read, it makes the Paladin flat-out better than the standard PHB 1, with almost all choices worthwhile.

Any other advice regarding that book? We play our first session in about 6 hours, if that helps.

[Kylarra]

For character building, pick encounter powers that you can see yourself using every encounter (doesn't necessarily apply to utility powers).

For actual playing, don't get bogged down in choosing the most optimal power. As Kurald likes to say, 20 damage now is a lot better than 23 damage a few minutes later. This is generally in terms of expediting the flow of combat.

[Kurald Galain]

As Kurald likes to say, 20 damage now is a lot better than 23 damage a few minutes later. This is generally in terms of expediting the flow of combat.
Hey, I'm famous :smallcool:

Hm, let's see. Common things that beginners overlook. (1) hit points are based on your con stat, not your con modifier. (2) standing up from prone doesn't provoke. (3) you don't need all four roles to have a viable party. (4) it's okay to dump three of your stats. (5) don't worry too much about being weak and squishy, you won't be; and neither will the party wizard.

[ShaggyMarco]

I'd like to repeat the advice: select encounter powers you can expect to use EVERY encounter. Highly situational encounter powers are not worth much. That's why you have dailies, though, you should pick daily powers you expect to use most days.

As a Paladin, be careful not to have so much more AC than the rest of your party that enemies are better off ignoring your mark. I've seen that happen at low levels a couple of times--though they were both pre-Divine Power Str/Wis paladins that didn't put enough Cha for their divine challenge to REALLY hurt.

Related note: If you are focusing both Strength and Charisma, the Mighty Challenge feat (Str+Cha+3/6/9 damage mark) is pretty much a must-have, making your divine challenge unignorable-easily 9-11 radiant damage at level 1.

Paladins can (if the rest of the party is safe from being overrun) be good at putting enemies in no-win situations by making themselves hard to attack while still keeping up their mark. Ranged weapons and reach weapons can help make this happen. I once played a Paladin with a polearm that loved marking an enemy, but keeping an ally, dangerous zone, or low wall between himself and the marked baddy.

[Drglenn]

(Obligatory TVTropes warning)
Yeah, Exactly What It Says On The Tin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin)

A friend of mine's group imploded, and he is trying to form a new one. Starting point: D&D 4ed.

I'm pretty adamant on playing a Halfling Paladin (just think about it for a second), focused on Charisma (duh).

Halfling Paladins work quite well, your racials prevent you being hit which is always a plus. Just remember that you have to wield any versatile weapon two-handed so you'll most likely want to use a short sword (unless you want to use a feat on rapier)


I have but two requests:
1) What should I watch out for? What should I expect? What should I not expect? What are THE BIGGEST (rule) CHANGES I might find on the transition from 3.5?
(Some) Big changes from 3.5:

No more BAB, instead everyone gets half-level to attacks (as well as skills and initiative)
No more skill points, instead you train a number of skills at level 1 based on your class, this gives you a flat +5 (and as mentioned above 1/2 level)
Much better class balance, now the party fighter will be able to effeciently keep up with the spellcasters
Defender classes now have an ability that encourages enemies to attack them and punish them if they don't (marking)
Powers are not spells, they are split into at-will, encounter, daily and utility
TWF doesn't work very well (only giving +1 damage if you take a feat) unless you're a Ranger (or other class that gets TWF-based powers) in which case it works really well
Two handed weapons aren't strength and a half to damage
Small characters don't use seperate weapons to the bigger folk, they're just restricted on what they can take (having to wield versatile weapons two-handed and not being able to use normally two-handed weapons unless the weapon is small)
Fort, Ref and Will (as mentioned above) now work like seperate ACs (reflex basicly being touch AC from 3.5 for example), you also get the better of the two relevant stats to the appropriate defence (Str/Con to Fort, Dex/Int to Ref and AC, Wis/Cha to Wil)
There is no such thing a 'max dex to ac' any more, you either have your stat to ac (with light armours i.e. cloth, leather, hide) or you don't (with heavy armours i.e. chain, scale, plate)
The character levels are sorted into tiers, 1-10 is heroic, 11-20 is paragon, 21-30 is epic. At level 11 you start a paragon path which is essentially a 3.5 PrC except its just going to be focused on your class or race. At level 21 you start an epic destiny which is a road to immortality (whether literal or otherwise)
Feats are gained every even level and the first level of each tier. They are seperated into tiers as to when you can take them.
When you increase ability scores you get +1 to two different scores. It is still every 4th level (though skipping 12th and 22nd levels)
You get +1 to all ability scores at 11th and 21st levels



2) A little help with character building. We are 4 players. 2 of us are pretty experienced, another one is the first time at roleplaying games in general, and it's my first time with 4ed, and I don't want to drag the more experienced players down.
The Halfling Paladin bit is unchangeable, but any help with power selections, and a little "how to" will be appreciated. Bear in mind that I only have access to PHB 1 and 2, but with a little luck can get almost any printed book
Pick powers that let you divine sanction (you mentioned having access to divine power) a lot, Paladins benefit from having a lot of enemies marked more than other classes as your punishment is not an action.
Atribute-wise I would suggest (post-racial):
Str 10
Con 14
Dex 13 (15)
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 16 (18)
This gives you a focus on the Charisma-based powers and pretty good NADs, the strength and intelligence are interchangeable, as are the Con and Wis if you really want to.

[ashmanonar]

Halfling Paladins work quite well, your racials prevent you being hit which is always a plus. Just remember that you have to wield any versatile weapon two-handed so you'll most likely want to use a short sword (unless you want to use a feat on rapier)



Rapiers are now a Military Melee weapon, so feel free to take it!

Scimitars are also excellent hobbit halfling sized weapons.

[MLH]

I have but two requests:
1) What should I watch out for? What should I expect? What should I not expect? What are THE BIGGEST (rule) CHANGES I might find on the transition from 3.5?
Moving diagonally takes 1 square of movement.

You get one opportunity attack per turn, not per round. This means you can have two enemies adjacent to you, and you'd get an opportunity attack against each of them if they move (one on enemy 1's turn when he moves, one on enemy 2's turn when he moves).

Powers do exactly what they say they do, no matter how much it doesn't seem to "make sense." Generally descriptions of what happens are derived from what a power does mechanically. In 3.5 you might say "this spell says it creates a wave of fire, so anything in the radius takes fire damage," but in 4E you're more likely to say "this spell says anything in the radius takes fire damage, so it probably looks like a big wave of fire, or maybe several small fireballs."

There's no arcane spell failure for wearing armor, no verbal, somatic or other components, and strictly speaking DM fiat would be the only thing that could keep a tied up and gagged spellcaster from casting his spells, or for that matter, a tied up fighter from attacking someone (although that kind of fiat is explicitly allowed for in the rules).

Don't neglect rituals. If you ever feel 4E doesn't have enough noncombat options, look through the rituals.

[Kylarra]

Technically speaking if you remove the fighter's weapon and stand 5' away (1 square between you) while he's tied up (restrained) then he can't really attack anyone (bar specific movement oriented powers that I may not be remembering), but your spellcaster statement is true.

[ninja_penguin]

1) What should I watch out for? What should I expect? What should I not expect? What are THE BIGGEST (rule) CHANGES I might find on the transition from 3.5?

Things to watch out for: Expected character roles. As a halfing paladin, you're actually viable, but you'll need to stick to the charisma based powers and the like, causing you to be more defender/leadery (translation: tanky with a touch of healing/damage preveiont). Also, expect to be outdamaged by any player who is playing a striker-role class. That's how the system works. Skills are condensed, HP is higher, dying is a touch higher, and the battles are (usually) much more a larger group of monsters, and not one boss monster. Also, no magic shields as AC boosters.



2) A little help with character building. We are 4 players. 2 of us are pretty experienced, another one is the first time at roleplaying games in general, and it's my first time with 4ed, and I don't want to drag the more experienced players down.
The Halfling Paladin bit is unchangeable, but any help with power selections, and a little "how to" will be appreciated. Bear in mind that I only have access to PHB 1 and 2, but with a little luck can get almost any printed book.

As a halfing, with the books you have, stick to a pure sword and board style paladin; Find a non-versatile weapon that has +3 proficiency bonus (you add this to your attack roll), and a shield. Halfings, as small guys, can't single hand versatile weapons, and can't wield two-handed weapons, so you're kinda stuck not being the whole smitey style paladin). On the plus side, your divine challenge is huge damage if you pump the charisma.

I'd suggest if you can get ahold of Divine power, as there's awesome paladin goodies in there. Otherwise, I suggest you look into channel divinity powers, some of them can be pretty fun, although with PHB 1/2 you're lacking any sort of 'turn undead' style power. The halfling racial power booster feat might be fun, too, what level are you starting at?

[d13]

Well. Update.

Characters created, and we played our first half-a-session (didn't have more time). The DM decided that he would give us a low scores array, for a low-powered game, so I ditched the halfling for a half-elf. I need those 2 Con if I want to tank/defend anything.

As it was more like a "test" run, we are allowed to change stuff that we didn't feel comfortable (or didn't feel it was really useful) with. The Druid player (one of the experienced ones, but had never played a druid), is going to completely change the character. I want to keep this, but maybe there are better choices around.

Important stuff:

* I trained it in Religion (automatic), Heal, Intimidate and Diplomacy.
* In a 5-minute-selecion, I took Divine Rage as my level 1 feat. Never used, and I'm not seeing a use for it. Thinking about it, I don't want to push enemies away from me xD.
I was thinking on multiclassing into Bard (seeing that we don't have anything resembling a Leader)... How useful is to take a multiclass feat at level 1?

Powers:
* Dilettante: Cutting Words. I picked it to have something a little controll-y, but ended up never using it. Any other choices?

The rest of my powers I'm pretty happy with what I chose. It works quite well marking a lot of enemies, and letting me do decent damage without being anything resembling a striker.
If anyone wanted to know:

At-Will:
* Enfeebling Strike
* Ardent Strike

Encounter:
* Valorous Smite

Daily:
* Majestic Halo

So... A little help with the feat, and with the Dilettante is appreciated. Also, thank you everyone for the rule clarification. I helped me not to be a complete newbie :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

I ditched the halfling for a half-elf. I need those 2 Con if I want to tank/defend anything.
Half-elf isn't very good unless you have a dilettante power you will be using a lot. As of recent errata, dragonborn and tieflings can also be con/cha, FYI.


* I trained it in Religion (automatic), Heal, Intimidate and Diplomacy.
You have no physical skills. It may be useful to acquire one (e.g. Endurance).



How useful is to take a multiclass feat at level 1?
Very. The MC feats are among the best in the game.

[Drglenn]

what does the rest of the party consist of btw?

[d13]

what does the rest of the party consist of btw?

A ranger, a barbarian and whatever the fourth player wants to switch his druid for.
I should've mentioned that before :smalltongue:

[Drglenn]

A ranger, a barbarian and whatever the fourth player wants to switch his druid for.
I should've mentioned that before :smalltongue:

Get the druid to switch to a leader :P, also what type is the ranger? (TWF, Archer, Beatmaster...)

In other news your powers selection looks solid though I personally would have chosen Bolstering Strike over Enfeebling. Also featwise: Commanding Vow, Lend Health and Virtuous Recovery are good feats if you can get access to them (Commanding vow and Lend Health are from Dragon Magazine, Virtuous Recovery is in Divine Power)

[d13]

Get the druid to switch to a leader :P, also what type is the ranger? (TWF, Archer, Beatmaster...)

In other news your powers selection looks solid though I personally would have chosen Bolstering Strike over Enfeebling. Also featwise: Commanding Vow, Lend Health and Virtuous Recovery are good feats if you can get access to them (Commanding vow and Lend Health are from Dragon Magazine, Virtuous Recovery is in Divine Power)

1) Archer Ranger.

2) I might be able to change Enfeebling Strike, but 2 THP doesn't strike me as many. On the other side, they are 2 THP per hit so it might work... (Stat array given was 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10. Not quite low-powered as I said, but with low maximum scores. I'm now standing at:
Str 12
Con 16 (14 +2)
Dex 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16 (14 +2) )

I think a friend of mine has access to the D&DI Character Builder (I don't know if it's available online, or what), so those Dragon Magazine feats might be fair game. I'll check with the DM.

To sum it up:
Half-Elf Paladin, raised by Dwarves (because the DM liked that idea xD), so it worships Moradin and uses a Warhammer in battle (because hammers are dwarfy (!))
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16.
Party composed by:
Elf Ranger, Goliath Barbarian, Something something (used to be a Shifter Druid), and me.


Will check those feats, and see if I like them or what. Thank you :smallsmile:

[ninja_penguin]

Your DM doesn't let you take over a 14 at character creation? I hope that they're toning monsters down a tad, otherwise they're kinda hosing the party.

[Kurald Galain]

The DM decided that he would give us a low scores array, for a low-powered game,
Your DM is mistaken. Lower ability scores do not make the game more low-powered, they just make it more frustrating (because you'll miss more often and get hit more often).

To actually make a game low-powered, simply play at low level.

[d13]

Your DM is mistaken. Lower ability scores do not make the game more low-powered, they just make it more frustrating (because you'll miss more often and get hit more often).

To actually make a game low-powered, simply play at low level.

I'm assuming that was his line of thought. Anyway, we're not doing badly at all with 16 as our highest stat(s), and nobody is complaining yet.

I'm more worried about the story as a whole, since he doesn't plan very much and is... Lousy, when improvising (or so I've heard).

So, no complains yet. Just at a complete loss while planning my character xD

[Aron Times]

Your DM is falling into the trap of making knee-jerk house rules to fix nonexistent problems. If he's also new to the game, he should run the game by the book before he can understand what problems do exist.

Also, forcing you to take low stats is a lot more painful in 4e because there is no other way of increasing low stats. In 3.5, you can get up to a +6 stat item (e.g. Cloak of Charisma +6), but in 4e, the only way to increase your stats is to level up:

+1 to all stats at levels 11 and 21.
+1 to two stats at levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, and 28.

[d13]

We are all aware of that, and he usually knows what he's doing.

He's also the most experienced of us at 4ed, and we actually trust his judgement with those things. It should work out fine as long as we're not constantly outmatched by everything.

[ninja_penguin]

It's more likely to happen if he's gimping your stats like that. The frustration will set in probably the first time that he rolls out a soldier monster, and/or he uses a higher level monster to try for more challenge.

[MLH]

Eh, I'm not a big fan of lowering the stat array, but if your DM adapts his encounter setups accordingly, it can work just fine. Just be aware of it in case it does become frustrating later on.

But since you mentioned CON, that's another important difference, elaborating on this:

(1) hit points are based on your con stat, not your con modifier.
Starting HP = your CON stat + what's listed in your class entry
HP per level = what's listed in your class entry only

Your CON modifier only goes on your number of healing surges per day. When you raise your CON by 1, you also raise your HP by 1.

Lord knows that threw me off at first.

[d13]

Lord knows that threw me off at first.

The DDI Character Builder helps a LOT with most creation rules :smallbiggrin:

So... I'm trying to find out what the druid player will switch his character for. Depending on that, I might ask for a change on powers. I'll be definitely asking to change the feat to Lend Health.

Thank you all =)