Why Ur-Priest?

[SlashRunner]

I commonly see that the Ur-Priest class is broken. However, I don't actually see why. I can figure out that it allows access to 9th level spells 2 levels earlier, but other than that, I don't see it being particularly great.

[Jude_H]

It has a bunch of spare levels to make silly builds with, and still hits the high level spells early. THose are the big things.

Generally speaking, it isn't as great as it's made out to be except in the level 12-16 range. The rest of the game, its spellcasting falls behind the Cleric (who has more spells, higher CL, a wider list, and more useful feats) and comparable prepared casters.

That's not saying it's not outrageously powerful, but ranking it alongside Tainted Scholar or Incantatrix in terms of broken classes is a bit much, IMO.

[Glimbur]

Class levels are expensive. If one can get 9th level divine casting in ~9 levels instead of in 17 that is useful.

[Yuki Akuma]

Mystic Theurge.

That's really all that needs to be said.

[Jack_Simth]

I commonly see that the Ur-Priest class is broken. However, I don't actually see why. I can figure out that it allows access to 9th level spells 2 levels earlier, but other than that, I don't see it being particularly great.
Three levels. As early as 14th.

The thing that *stays* broken is the steal spell-like ability bit... but that mostly only if you encounter an Efreeti regularly.


Mystic Theurge.

That's really all that needs to be said.
Yes, it does cause some issues at very high levels. The standard entry for doing that would be the Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane PrC-4. 1st 9th level spell at 15th or 16th, double nines at 19th, with a caster level that's potentially higher than character level, on the Divine side.

Mostly, though, it's the quicker spell access, and the steal spell-like ability that get baroquen.

[Tvtyrant]

It makes double progression classes extremely powerful, as well as allowing you to make a very potent gish.

[Lateral]

*casts Summon Ur-Priest*

It's broken because you can use it with a theurge PrC to get double 9ths. MT? 9th level divine/arcane. Psychic Theurge? Divine/manifesting. Ruby Knight Vindicator? 9th level divine/initiating, AND you're an RKV. That's why it's powerful.

[Morph Bark]

Not to mention there are some slick builds involving Factotum and Sublime Chord as well. Get 9th-level divine and arcane casting and spend Inspiration points to cast a whole lot of it in the first round of combat, every combat!

[Lateral]

Not to mention there are some slick builds involving Factotum and Sublime Chord as well. Get 9th-level divine and arcane casting and spend Inspiration points to cast a whole lot of it in the first round of combat, every combat!

How are you getting 9th-level arcane casting with 8 levels of Factotum?

[Jude_H]

Eh. Once you have 9th level spells*, you do what you like. Expanding the number of explicit options is nice, but a second set of 9s is a drop in the bucket.

edit: *probably should have said prepared 9th level spells.
edit2: and then excluded the healer.
edit3: this game is too bloated to say anything about anymore. <_<

[erikun]

Take a tier 1 class - say, the Cleric - then modify it so that you get all the same goodies, but in half the time. That's the Ur-Priest. That's also why it is generally considered so powerful.

It doesn't have everything the standard Cleric does, though. It's lacking caster levels (unless you're going gish for near-20 progression) and has less spell slots. It doesn't have domains, although it does get some nice abilities instead. It also has Rebuke Undead as a Cleric, allowing the same DMM abuse.

That said, the Ur-Priest isn't as broken as, say, the Beholder Mage. Or as bad as the Tainted Sorcerer, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I actually like the class with a Wizard/Theurge. It is up there as one of the best prestige classes though.

[9mm]

How are you getting 9th-level arcane casting with 8 levels of Factotum?

sublime chord is the ur-priest if arcane casting

[Hirax]

How are you getting 9th-level arcane casting with 8 levels of Factotum?

Factotum5/urpriest2/factotum+3/sublime chord2/theurge8/

I think that's how it goes, you need to be level 10 to get into sublime chord I think. I've never been fond of this build since you delay 9th level spells to 18th level.

[Eldariel]

The thing that *stays* broken is the steal spell-like ability bit... but that mostly only if you encounter an Efreeti regularly.

Like if you use a spell to Planar Bind one? :smallwink:

[myancey]

Like if you use a spell to Planar Bind one? :smallwink:

That's pretty wicked. And scary...

[Morph Bark]

Factotum5/urpriest2/factotum+3/sublime chord2/theurge8/

I think that's how it goes, you need to be level 10 to get into sublime chord I think. I've never been fond of this build since you delay 9th level spells to 18th level.

Actually, you need to switch an Ur-Priest level for a Bard level, as you need Bardic Music (or bardic spellcasting or such) for Sublime Chord entry. I dunno if Ur-Priest gets 9th-level spells at level 9 or 10, but if it is 10, you can give up Sublime Chord 2 as well so you can get Mystic Theurge 9.

[Lateral]

Factotum5/urpriest2/factotum+3/sublime chord2/theurge8/

I think that's how it goes, you need to be level 10 to get into sublime chord I think. I've never been fond of this build since you delay 9th level spells to 18th level.
But Factotums only get up to 7th level spells. :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

But Factotums only get up to 7th level spells. :smallconfused:Sublime Chord offers it's own casting, as does Ur-Priest.

[Hirax]

But Factotums only get up to 7th level spells. :smallconfused:

Any combination of urpriest2/chord2/theurge8 gets 9th level arcane and divine spells. Chord is a 10 level class the gives you 9th levels arcane spells, drawn from the bard or wizard spell list at 9th level. As was pointed out my build doesn't quite work, but you get the idea.

[Lateral]

Och, I was thinking of Fochlucan Lyrist for some reason. >_<

[FMArthur]

How are you getting 9th-level arcane casting with 8 levels of Factotum?

Sublime Chord. Really Sublime Chord is nearly as overpowered as Ur-Priest in a full 20-level build, but not at early levels. They both free up a stupid amount of levels that give you too much versatility for a PHB fullcaster-equivalent.

Sublime Chord is the whole Sorcerer class in 10 levels.

They don't smash campaigns alone (well, Ur-Priest gets pretty close at the levels it passes Cleric) because they don't give more than the core fullcasters have, so they're just overpowered in the versatility their builds allow, instead of gamebreaking in raw power.

Planar Shepherd, Beholder Mage and Tainted Scholar are the few that bring absolute ruination to a campaign. "Shadow Miracle" Shadowcraft Mage and Dweomerkeeper have similar abuse with things like free Miracles but generally take research to pull off instead of making any game totally stupid right out of the box.

[Jude_H]

But Factotums only get up to 7th level spells. :smallconfused:
Given PrC requirements, that's the least of that build's problems.

[Cog]

Factotum doesn't get any spells, actually. It gets SLAs that it gets to choose anew each day like a prepped caster, but because they're SLAs they face a lot of the same PrC restrictions as Warlocks and DFAs.

[Jack_Simth]

Like if you use a spell to Planar Bind one? :smallwink:Potentially, but then you've got the issue that Planar Binding is not a cleric spell, so you're needing to maintain other Arcane casting (and have fun getting both 6th level Arcane spells and 10th level Ur-Priest class features), or regularly borrow spells from the Arcanist in the party ... and with Planar Ally, it's *the deity* that picks the critter sent, not the caster. Like Miracle, Planar Ally is a spell an Ur-Priest would do very, very well to avoid for fluff reasons.

[Lateral]

Factotum doesn't get any spells, actually. It gets SLAs that it gets to choose anew each day like a prepped caster, but because they're SLAs they face a lot of the same PrC restrictions as Warlocks and DFAs.

Details, details. :smalltongue:

[Veyr]

Sublime Chord isn't nearly as bad as Ur-Priest, though: you need 3rd level spells to begin with to get in, and you need at least one level of Bard (ironically, a Bard 1/Wizard 5 qualifies with fewer spellcasting levels than a pure Bard, which would be Bard 7), and even then you can only enter start at 11th, which means no 9ths before 20, which means you're never ahead of full-casters. That said, it effectively eliminates three or four dead spellcasting levels from your build, provided you can take all of the dead levels by 10th (and maintain your Perform ranks at the same time), which is... nifty, to say the least. War Weaver, Recaster, and, I dunno, something else, would be all still give you "full" spellcasting despite their usual loss of spellcasting at 1st.

Ur-Priest, on the other hand, can be started at 6th, gaining 9ths by 14th. That's bad.

On the other hand, before 13th, and after 16th, a Cleric is much better than an Ur-Priest for the most part. More spells/day, Domains, usually better Caster Level, plus whatever PrCs he took. So outside of 13-16, Ur-Priest is generally weaker than a Cleric — you give up full Cleric power for the sake of quite a lot of extra free levels. I'm sure there's very powerful things you can do with those levels, but it's somewhat overstating things to call it absolutely broken: I think Cleric has a bit more room for optimizing than does Ur-Priest.


As for theurges.... default theurges are just so bad that something like Ur-Priest kind of makes up for them. It's too much, I'll agree, but I think a Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9 (ignoring, for the moment, the entry issues on that build) is much closer to a Wizard 16's power than a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is. Still, if I had a player interested in a theurge, my suggestion would not be to go Ur-Priest, but to modify the theurge in question to have easier entry and class features, a la Ultimate Magus.


Unless they were interested in Tenebrous Apostate. Then the fluff fits so incredibly well, and the Tenebrous Apostate is so bad anyway, that I think that would be fine.

[gorfnab]

Ur-Priest can be used for some very amusing builds.

Hellfire Ur-lock
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Mindbender (Mindsight ) 1/ Eldritch Disciple 5

Ruby Knight Vindicat-Ur
Human Paragon 1/ Crusader 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Crusader 3
Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Hexblade 3/ Crusader 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Divine Traitor (not exactly optimal but still amusing)
Defiant 10/ Ur-Priest 10

Ur-Chord
Bard7/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Mystic Theurge 8

Sacrilegious Fist
Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3

[Urpriest]

*casts Summon Ur-Priest*

It's broken because you can use it with a theurge PrC to get double 9ths. MT? 9th level divine/arcane. Psychic Theurge? Divine/manifesting. Ruby Knight Vindicator? 9th level divine/initiating, AND you're an RKV. That's why it's powerful.

You Rang?

Cursedly enough I was in the air for most of Rapture Day and so missed this thread. Pretty much everything that needed to be mentioned has been mentioned. In addition...


Potentially, but then you've got the issue that Planar Binding is not a cleric spell, so you're needing to maintain other Arcane casting (and have fun getting both 6th level Arcane spells and 10th level Ur-Priest class features), or regularly borrow spells from the Arcanist in the party ... and with Planar Ally, it's *the deity* that picks the critter sent, not the caster. Like Miracle, Planar Ally is a spell an Ur-Priest would do very, very well to avoid for fluff reasons.

Planar Ally, Miracle, and the like are actually much better fluffwise on an Ur-Priest than a regular Cleric. Ur-Priests get spells regardless of alignment because they steal them from other casters. That same fluff justifies them getting whatever they want for Planar Ally and Miracle, since they stole those spells as well. As an Ur-Priest you're pretty much the only class whose fluff justifies choosing what you get out of those spells.

[BobSutan]

*casts Summon Ur-Priest*

It's broken because you can use it with a theurge PrC to get double 9ths. MT? 9th level divine/arcane. Psychic Theurge? Divine/manifesting. Ruby Knight Vindicator? 9th level divine/initiating, AND you're an RKV. That's why it's powerful.

So like one of the earlier posters said, it's not really a big deal until you get into 12+ levels.

[navar100]

At 20th level you certainly can have amazing stuff, like the aforementioned 9th level spell access in arcane and divine.

What about levels less than 20? You have all this multiclassing in base classes and prestige classes. When you're at some level less than 20, how good or fun to play are you? Before you even get into Ur-Priest? How about before you get into a Theurge?

Real world consideration is necessary. Will the campaign even last to level 20? If it ends before then, you never get to enjoy the juiciness of 9th level arcane and divine spells. Suppose it does go to level 20 but not epic? For one level of play you're all high mighty grand poobah. Then the game ends. Were you so high mighty for all those levels before then? Would you even be allowed to play an evil character to go into Ur-Priest in the first place?

As an on paper exercise you can surmise all the power you want in Ur-Priest, but for actual play it may not see the light of day.

[Eldariel]

Potentially, but then you've got the issue that Planar Binding is not a cleric spell, so you're needing to maintain other Arcane casting (and have fun getting both 6th level Arcane spells and 10th level Ur-Priest class features), or regularly borrow spells from the Arcanist in the party ... and with Planar Ally, it's *the deity* that picks the critter sent, not the caster. Like Miracle, Planar Ally is a spell an Ur-Priest would do very, very well to avoid for fluff reasons.

You can gain Planar Bindings through Domain which you can gain through Contemplative, for example :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Sublime Chord. Really Sublime Chord is nearly as overpowered as Ur-Priest in a full 20-level build, but not at early levels. They both free up a stupid amount of levels that give you too much versatility for a PHB fullcaster-equivalent.

Sublime Chord is the whole Sorcerer class in 10 levels.

They don't smash campaigns alone (well, Ur-Priest gets pretty close at the levels it passes Cleric) because they don't give more than the core fullcasters have, so they're just overpowered in the versatility their builds allow, instead of gamebreaking in raw power.

I'm not following it with Sublime Chord, really, since you have to have 8/9 levels after you take it be full-casting anyway in order to get 9th level spells, so it doesn't exactly allow anything that a sorcerer can't do at higher levels and before then you're not modifying the sublime chord casting with PrCs and need both a level of bard(or heartfire fanner) and 3rd level spells to qualify for the PrC.

Ur-Priest at least has several levels you can actually set fire to for abilities and still get full-casting.

What is this Defiant that gorfnab mentioned though? :smallconfused:

[cfalcon]

I think the intention was that you take some levels of cleric, and then Something Bad happens and you become an Ur-Priest and have these dead level of cleric, so the PRC has to get you back on track.

Of course, you end up as a *weak* character then.


Largely it's just one of many OP classes, mostly when stacked with other prestiges that add caster level + goodness, because Ur Priest's caster level is pretty tasty. All of this has been brought up.

In its defense, the Ur-Priest actually has very cool flavor.

[Hirax]

The ur-priest's power is made up for by its painful entry requirements. Sort of. It takes away a lot of flexibility, at least.

[BobSutan]

I think the intention was that you take some levels of cleric, and then Something Bad happens and you become an Ur-Priest and have these dead level of cleric, so the PRC has to get you back on track.

Of course, you end up as a *weak* character then.


Largely it's just one of many OP classes, mostly when stacked with other prestiges that add caster level + goodness, because Ur Priest's caster level is pretty tasty. All of this has been brought up.

In its defense, the Ur-Priest actually has very cool flavor.

I always saw Ur-Priest as a darker alternative to playing a Mystic, as if one was a cleric and lost faith in his god but his will and tenacity fueled his faith in general instead.

[Lateral]

At 20th level you certainly can have amazing stuff, like the aforementioned 9th level spell access in arcane and divine.

What about levels less than 20? You have all this multiclassing in base classes and prestige classes. When you're at some level less than 20, how good or fun to play are you? Before you even get into Ur-Priest? How about before you get into a Theurge?

Real world consideration is necessary. Will the campaign even last to level 20? If it ends before then, you never get to enjoy the juiciness of 9th level arcane and divine spells. Suppose it does go to level 20 but not epic? For one level of play you're all high mighty grand poobah. Then the game ends. Were you so high mighty for all those levels before then? Would you even be allowed to play an evil character to go into Ur-Priest in the first place?

As an on paper exercise you can surmise all the power you want in Ur-Priest, but for actual play it may not see the light of day.
...What are you losing out on, exactly? You're a factotum for the first 5 levels, and then for levels 8-10- it's still a tier 3 class. And after that, you're getting power pretty damn quickly.

[Jack_Simth]

Planar Ally, Miracle, and the like are actually much better fluffwise on an Ur-Priest than a regular Cleric. Ur-Priests get spells regardless of alignment because they steal them from other casters. That same fluff justifies them getting whatever they want for Planar Ally and Miracle, since they stole those spells as well. As an Ur-Priest you're pretty much the only class whose fluff justifies choosing what you get out of those spells.Possibly, but this is extremely DM dependent. One might accept the logic, and move on. Another might say casting that sort of spell draws the direct attention of the deity in that instant, who recognizes you for what you truly are, and abuses the channel you just opened to do something mean. Miracle? Congrats - save vs ... what's a good 8th level or lower Cleric spell... Destruction, maybe ... at your own caster level and your save DC for Miracle. Oh yes, and it's a spell you cast, so any SR you have doesn't apply. Greater Planar Ally? What's a good outsider appropriate to the deity that has a high CR but is within the HD limits... it wants to kill you now, and it starts out adjacent to you. As a conjured creature, though, it doesn't give you any XP if you beat it. Sorry. And so on.

It's not the player's interpretation on this sort of thing that matters - it's the DM's. Either response is reasonably thematic.

[Incanur]

As an on paper exercise you can surmise all the power you want in Ur-Priest, but for actual play it may not see the light of day.

I DMed a campaign with one. The ur-priest was a powerful character but he didn't overshadow the other folks, who were all tier-1 casters who'd lost a level or two of spells (pale master, master spellthief, arcane hierophant). As you would expect, I frowned on free wish nonsense.

[Urpriest]

I think the intention was that you take some levels of cleric, and then Something Bad happens and you become an Ur-Priest and have these dead level of cleric, so the PRC has to get you back on track.

Of course, you end up as a *weak* character then.


Largely it's just one of many OP classes, mostly when stacked with other prestiges that add caster level + goodness, because Ur Priest's caster level is pretty tasty. All of this has been brought up.

In its defense, the Ur-Priest actually has very cool flavor.

To elaborate: Defiant is a PrC from Planar Handbook that lets you trade Cleric levels for levels in it (like Blackguard is with Paladin). It's atheist-flavored, like Ur-Priest, but mostly gives you lacklustre class abilities and a huge SR to divine magic that you're not allowed to voluntarily lower...meaning that a Defiant Ur-Priest has a hard time buffing him/herself.

[Ernir]

To elaborate: Defiant is a PrC from Planar Handbook that lets you trade Cleric levels for levels in it (like Blackguard is with Paladin). It's atheist-flavored, like Ur-Priest, but mostly gives you lacklustre class abilities and a huge SR to divine magic that you're not allowed to voluntarily lower...meaning that a Defiant Ur-Priest has a hard time buffing him/herself.

The SR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) isn't a problem, because
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.


The "Divine Interference" class feature looks like a problem, though...

[Greenish]

To elaborate: Defiant is a PrC from Planar Handbook that lets you trade Cleric levels for levels in it (like Blackguard is with Paladin). It's atheist-flavored, like Ur-PriestBoth Ur Priest and Defiant are firm theists, and indeed neither would make much sense otherwise. :smalltongue:

[true_shinken]

As an on paper exercise you can surmise all the power you want in Ur-Priest, but for actual play it may not see the light of day.

And so what? Has anyone ever claimed Ur-priest is the most practical prestige class ever and that you should drop oither classes to play it or something? :smallconfused:
People just say it's powerful. And it is.

[Jude_H]

At 20th level you certainly can have amazing stuff, like the aforementioned 9th level spell access in arcane and divine.
Right. That's exactly why the Ur-Priest is powerful. If a game were played at ECL 17+, it wouldn't matter who got level 7-9 spells first.

Edit:

...What are you losing out on, exactly? You're a factotum for the first 5 levels, and then for levels 8-10- it's still a tier 3 class. It doesn't contradict the thrust of your point, but this build has cropped up twice. Factotums can't qualify until level 10.

[Urpriest]

Both Ur Priest and Defiant are firm theists, and indeed neither would make much sense otherwise. :smalltongue:

Well yes...they are about the closest to an atheist you can get in D&D with any ranks in Knowledge(the planes) though...

[Yora]

No. Ur priests explicitly aknowledge the existance of gods. They hate them and don't think they deserve their station and worship, but they aknowledge that they exist with no doubt about that.

[cfalcon]

The problem here is we have no word for someone who acts as the Urpriest does, belief wise. Atheist is not the right word, but it's pretty clear what you are saying when you say it.

[cfalcon]

I will also point out that one COULD be an atheist in D&D world by pointing out that the "gods" are simply possessed of a power- a rare and powerful one to be sure, but a similar thing to what men are able to obtain. You could then legitimately claim that there are no gods (you could even maintain a real world religion or something equivalent, making the same claim about the gods you believe in that real world theists do, and the same explanations for why Gengis Khan is tolerated would also apply to $EVIL_WOTC_GOD just as well.

But to not believe in the gods as presented is like not believing in fire, or wizards. Eventually, you will be burned, or have a spell cast at you. Possibly, in fact, fireball.

[Veyr]

Antitheist would seem to cover it.

Although, if you were to believe that those whom others call 'god' are really just another very-powerful Outsider, might that not count as "atheism"? You're not denying the existence of the individuals, just their divinity.

Although that's an almost-entirely semantic argument, it seems a reasonable one for those who deny the gods' worthiness of worship.

EDIT: Swordsage'd hard.

[Greenish]

The problem here is we have no word for someone who acts as the Urpriest does, belief wise.Misotheist? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheist)

Atheist is not the right word, but it's pretty clear what you are saying when you say it.Meh, when using epithets real life people identify with you could have the courtesy of not using them to mean the opposite of what they mean.

[Urpriest]

The problem here is we have no word for someone who acts as the Urpriest does, belief wise. Atheist is not the right word, but it's pretty clear what you are saying when you say it.

There is a word, sort of. Naytheist.

That said, an atheist in D&D is just another word for someone with no ranks in Knowledge(the planes), as I said earlier. So we might as well redefine it in this context.

[Greenish]

That said, an atheist in D&D is just another word for someone with no ranks in Knowledge(the planes), as I said earlier.There's a term for that too, flat earth atheist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist). :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

Atheist: Gods do not exist.
Antitheist: The idea that gods exist is ludicrously stupid and inherently harmful to its believers.
"Nay"theist: I refuse to worship gods. Gods may or may not exist.
Misotheist: Gods exist. I hate them.

Flat Earth Atheist: Gods do not exist, despite verifiable proof that they do. Yes, I am bat**** insane.

[SlashRunner]

Three levels. As early as 14th.

The thing that *stays* broken is the steal spell-like ability bit... but that mostly only if you encounter an Efreeti regularly.


Yes, it does cause some issues at very high levels. The standard entry for doing that would be the Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane PrC-4. 1st 9th level spell at 15th or 16th, double nines at 19th, with a caster level that's potentially higher than character level, on the Divine side.

Mostly, though, it's the quicker spell access, and the steal spell-like ability that get baroquen.

Wait, why 1 level of Mindbender?

[Dylaer]

Wait, why 1 level of Mindbender?

Because there's only one level of Mindbender. At least, only one worth taking. 1st level gives you telepathy 100ft.

[Coidzor]

Wait, why 1 level of Mindbender?

Mindsight in exchange for a feat.


There is a word, sort of. Naytheist.

That said, an atheist in D&D is just another word for someone with no ranks in Knowledge(the planes), as I said earlier. So we might as well redefine it in this context.

Well, those who know about the wall of the faithless or similar setups would probably object to worshiping as good any god that condones or enforces such a setup and seek to avoid the ...sheer unrelenting horror of the D&D afterlife.

But those would probably count as misotheists.

[SlashRunner]

Mindsight? Where is that? The only 1st level mindbender class feature is telepathy.

[Urpriest]

Mindsight? Where is that? The only 1st level mindbender class feature is telepathy.

Which allows you to take the Mindsight feat. Mindbender also allows you to qualify earlier for Ur-Priest because of its good Fort save.

[Dylaer]

There's a feat in Lords of Madness that gives Mindsight, with the prereq as Telepathy.

Edit: ninja'd by Urpriest. Again.

[Veyr]

Further on the Mindbender: it'd dead-easy to enter, gives spellcasting at 1st, and as mentioned, has that good Fort save (required for earlier entry to Ur-Priest) and meets the otherwise-difficult-to-meet prerequisites for Mindsight. It's therefore a really good dip.

[erikun]

Miracle? Congrats - save vs ... what's a good 8th level or lower Cleric spell... Destruction, maybe ... at your own caster level and your save DC for Miracle. Oh yes, and it's a spell you cast, so any SR you have doesn't apply.
You have a caster level of, like, 8. Power Word: Kill might be more practical, although I guess both have about the same result if you fail your save.

You do have a good point about possible mishaps with Miracle/Gate. I also note that there is technically nothing stopping a unique creature from answering your Gate Calling for a kind of creature of that type. The poor 15th level Ur-Priest who finds out he just summoned a 20th level Paladin Solar is unlikely to live long enough to regret the decision.


Wait, why 1 level of Mindbender?
As others have pointed out, Ur-Priest requires a high Fortitude save and high ranks in Bluff for entry. The Mindbender grants good Fort/Will saves, and has Bluff as a class skill. You end up with both the needed Fortitude save and cross-class ranks in Bluff at Wizard 9, but Wizard 5/Mindbender 1 gets you there three levels earlier.

Free-use telepathy (for the Mindsight feat) is just extra icing on the cake.

[candycorn]

Also, with Early entry shenanigans, it's possible to have a:

Bard 3 (SRD Savage Bard variant) / Ur-priest 10.

This gains spells at character level as follows:

{table=header]Spell Level | Cleric gets at CL | Ur Priest gets at CL
1 | 1 | 4
2 | 3 | 5
3 | 5 | 6
4 | 7 | 7
5 | 9 | 8
6 | 11 | 9
7 | 13 | 10
8 | 15 | 11
9 | 17 | 12[/table]

That means that at Character level 8th, you gain higher spell levels than a cleric, and you get 9th level spells before a cleric gets 7th level. And that's not even counting theurging. You'll need 1 more level of bard if your DM doesn't allow precocious apprentice to qualify for "ability to cast 2nd level spells".

Early entry shenanigans (cheese warning):1) Advance to bard 9, have another bard in the party, as well as a cleric and a psion (or another source for the spells and powers used in this method).
2) Get level drained to level 3.
3) Bard buddy Inspires Greatness, giving you 2 bonus HD.
3a) Psion uses Psychic Reformation on you during this. as you have 5 HD, you can get 8 skill ranks in your skills. Do so to satisfy skill requirements.
3b) After 3a, but during greatness, cleric casts restoration 6 times, restoring levels. Nothing requires you to make the same level gain choices, so, as you currently qualify for ur priest at level bard 3 / HD 2, take it. Continue taking it until you're level 9 again, which makes you Bard 3 / Ur Priest 6 / HD 2.
4) Bard ceases singing, returning you to Bard 3 / Ur Priest 6.

[Jack_Simth]

Wait, why 1 level of Mindbender?
A number of reasons, most of which have been mentioned already.
1) Really easy entry requirements.
2) It has the good Fort save needed for Ur-Priest.
3) Unlike the vast majority of partial-advancement PrC's, this one loses casting on even levels, rather than odd levels, so a one-level dip does not reduce your casting progression at all.
4) It has many of the skills you'll need for Ur-Priest as class skills.
5) It grants Telepathy for easy covert communication among reasonably nearby allies.
6) It gives you the option of picking up the Mindsight Feat (Lords of Madness) thanks to the Telepathy.
7) The alignment restrictions of Ur-Priest (any Evil) are compatible with the alignment restrictions of Mindbender (any nongood).

Basically, it's a really handy fit for a wizard base going into Ur-Priest for a theurge. If you're not planning on going the theurge route (because you want the Ur-Priest class features... which is about the only reason not to theurge), it may still be worthwhile, but is much *less* worthwhile.


You have a caster level of, like, 8. Power Word: Kill might be more practical, although I guess both have about the same result if you fail your save.

You do have a good point about possible mishaps with Miracle/Gate. I also note that there is technically nothing stopping a unique creature from answering your Gate Calling for a kind of creature of that type. The poor 15th level Ur-Priest who finds out he just summoned a 20th level Paladin Solar is unlikely to live long enough to regret the decision.
Eh, I was picking a spell basically at random. I'd also note that, as you're bypassing your own SR because you cast the spell yourself, and the range is meaningless because it's affecting you, there is nothing that's actually caster level dependent to Destruction. But it makes for a funny picture, doesn't it? And that's ignoring the potential for the deity to go for the "greater than these" clause, draining you of 5,000 xp arbitrarily and picking an effect that doesn't line up with any 8th level or lower Cleric spell, nor any 7th level or lower non-Cleric spell.

Additionally, most of the builds to make good use of the Ur-Priest will often end up with a caster level as high as, and sometimes higher than, character level.