3.0/3.5 Differences

[Lemonus]

I recently was looking for the 3.5 books, but got the 3.0 books by mistake. My question is, what are some of the differences between 3.0 and 3.5? Will 3.5 homebrew and such still work with 3.0?

[bartman]

I could be totally wrong, but I was always under the impression that 3.X simply meant 3.0, and 3.5 combined into one, with some d20 3rd party stuff mixed in as well. 3.P in my opinion, means 3.X(see above) plus the addition of pathfinder.

[Lemonus]

I could be totally wrong, but I was always under the impression that 3.X simply meant 3.0, and 3.5 combined into one, with some d20 3rd party stuff mixed in as well. 3.P in my opinion, means 3.X(see above) plus the addition of pathfinder.

I just though 3.x was 3.0. I'll change it in case you're right.

[LOTRfan]

3.X means both 3.0 and 3.5, btw. 3.0 material is still usable, but keep in mind a few things; DR worked differently in 3.0. CHange all references to DR/+1 or whatever other number toDR/Magic, or if it is +6, to DR/Epic. Also, there are extra skills in 3.0 that didn't make it to 3.5. Just ignore 'em, except for the cool one in Oriental Advetures.

If I remember correctly, the feat progression was also a little different.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There are some significant changes from 3.0 to 3.5 to Pathfinder. That said, the rule is, if you have something from 3.0 and it has no analog in 3.5 (that is to say, it was never updated in a 3.5 sourcebook or errata'd into 3.5 or similarly updated), then it is kosher in all of 3.5. A prime example is Disciple of Dispater, which uses the older crit-stacking rules of 3.0 that 3.5 largely dealt away with. Because it has not officially been updated, that means it still stacks, leading people to gaining ~12-20 threat ranges with some weapons.

[Jude_H]

3.x usually means 3.0+3.5+pathfinder+whatever d20-based variants are at hand.

The differences are pretty minor. Here's what I can think of:

Classes have more interesting abilities in 3.5, some skills, spells, powers and feats were conjoined*
animal companions work differently
critical modifiers stack in 3.0
psionics went from a basically unusable 3.0 system to one of 3.5's high points
Flurry of Blows was an extra attack with a penalty in 3.5. In 3.0, I read the passage a few times, but still can't remember how it worked... something about a second BA track? The Monk had a couple other changes that I can't remember, including a jumping ability that I don't think would have mattered with 3.5's jump rules.
Jump rules changed. I can't remember how, exactly. I think there was a cap on jump modifiers in 3.0 based on a character's height or speed or something. It was an obnoxious rule that I don't think anyone bothered to look up.
Haste was absurdly powerful in 3.0 and was very prevalent
DR/magic changed from 3.0 (where the value of enhancements mattered, and DR values frequently went up to ~30) to 3.5 (where it only mattered whether you have an enhancement, and DR values don't go much past 10).
Numeric bow enhancements stacked with numeric arrow enhancements in 3.0. They didn't in 3.5.
I remember Bards sucking in 3.0, but not in 3.5. I don't remember exactly what the 3.0 Bard looked like, but I think it had trouble casting in armor, it had fewer skills, it had crappier music and it had less splatbook support.


*Off my head: Innuendo->bluff, Wilderness Lore->Knowledge, Know Direction->Survival, Polymorph Self+Polymorph Other->Polymorph, Astral Construct I-IX->Astral Construct, Ambidexterity+TWF->TWF.

There were a few design philosophy-type changes (e.g. a lot of 3.0 prestige classes require spellcasting, then spring their own class spell lists; 3.5 spellcasting classes generally improve what a character entered with), but those don't matter so much in terms of porting the materials one way or the other.

Homebrew should generally work 3.5->3.0, unless it's based on one of the areas of the system change. (The 3.5 Fatespinner would work out fine; the 3.5 Swiftblade or Soulbow could be wonky.)

[Lateral]

3.X doesn't include PF, that's 3.PF.

[Draz74]

3.X doesn't include PF, that's 3.PF.

That's like saying "fruit doesn't include bananas, because bananas are yellow."

[Lateral]

That's like saying "fruit doesn't include bananas, because bananas are yellow."

...I don't get it.

Pathfinder is not a Dungeons & Dragons product and is not by Wizards of the Coast, so although it's compatible with 3.X, it is not 3.X.

[Lastgrasp]

...I don't get it.

Pathfinder is not a Dungeons & Dragons product and is not by Wizards of the Coast, so although it's compatible with 3.X, it is not 3.X.

Whenever I see 3.X I assume it's 3.0 to PF and everything in between. I know Pathfinder is not Wotc, but they have for better or worse taken over the D20 system. They are the face of 3.X system now. Yes, there are other variants on the market, but Paizo in terms of sales and presence is the leader now.

[HalfDragonCube]

If 3.x includes pathfinder, then what the heck is 3.P?

I'm with Lateral on this one.

[Quietus]

If 3.x includes pathfinder, then what the heck is 3.P?

I'm with Lateral on this one.

Thirded.

Motion passed?

[raitalin]

Well, assuming that the x in "3.x" is for a variable I'd say 3.x includes Pathfinder and 3.P(f) is a 3.x campaign that is using the Pathfinder core book, but allows 3.x books.

[Greenish]

Thirded.

Motion passed?In favour.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If 3.x includes pathfinder, then what the heck is 3.P?

I'm with Lateral on this one.

3.P is 3.5 and PF, no 3.0.

[Godskook]

Weapons worked differently in 3.0. A large-sized longsword is a medium-sized greatsword. In 3.5, a large-sized dagger is a large-sized dagger, period.

And on the subject of pathfinder, since it is often claimed that 3.pf = 3.75, I agree that it is covered under 3.x, even under the "pf is not a number" argument.

[NineThePuma]

PF is a variable that means either "Perfect, finely" or "Possible Fail" or even "Largely useless"

[Ravens_cry]

With a high crit weapon with keen and vorpal and the improve critical feat (they stack!), you're lopping heads off left, right and centre. "Snicker-snack" indeed.:smallamused:
Harm is nasty. It won't kill you, but it will drop your hit points so low that if you get hit by a wizard wielding a dagger after, you are all too likely dead. No save, only spell resistance. Broken.
Haste is a free quicken. Broken.

[HalfDragonCube]

With a high crit weapon with keen and vorpal and the improve critical feat (they stack!), you're lopping heads off left, right and centre. "Snicker-snack" indeed.:smallamused:
Harm is nasty. It won't kill you, but it will drop your hit points so low that if you get hit by a wizard wielding a dagger after, you are all too likely dead. No save, only spell resistance. Broken.
Haste is a free quicken. Broken.

Haste: you know it's real magic when it takes a year off your lifespan!

[Ravens_cry]

Haste: you know it's real magic when it takes a year off your lifespan!

Yeah, I am pretty sure 3.0 Haste didn't do that. I think that was AD&D only.

[RaggedAngel]

Yeah, I am pretty sure 3.0 Haste didn't do that. I think that was AD&D only.

I've only every played 3.5; what exactly did 3.0 Haste do?

[Greenish]

I've only every played 3.5; what exactly did 3.0 Haste do?+4 to AC and extra partial action. Also increased jump distance.

[Rei_Jin]

In the 3.0 to 3.5 Changeover...

Fighter, Rogue, Druid, Cleric, Sorceror, Wizard pretty much stayed the same.

Bard, Barbarian, Paladin got minor changes.

Ranger, Monk got major changes.

Dwarves got more awesome (which they hardly needed) and Half-elves got a boost, where Half-orcs got nothing.

In 3.0, Psionic disciplines all ran off different stats, so you could have a Psion who casts his powers with his Con or Str. In 3.5, Psions run off Int, regardless of their chosen discipline.

The toad Familiar (for the arcane casters) in 3.0 granted +2 Con. In 3.5, it only gives +3hp.

How actions worked changed, including the introduction of Swift Actions.

Skills were consolidated. Wilderness Lore and Intuit Direction became Survival, Innuendo was rolled into Bluff, Scrying was removed as a skill.

The usage of some skills changed. For example, your maximum Jump height used to be based on your characters size in 3.0. In 3.5, it is not.

Many spells were adjusted, including Haste.

Trip, Bullrush, and Disarm all became combat options not requiring a feat to use. In 3.0 they all required a feat to be an option.

Weapon Size rules were clarified and made more restrictive, so that players couldn't bend the rules so much.

Critical Threat range modifiers no longer stack automatically.

Vorpal only threatens on a Natural 20, not on a Critical hit.

Damage Reduction was revised to be more in line with older editions of D&D, so that special materials were required to overcome certain types of DR.

A lot of monsters had their abilities, stats, skills, etc. adjusted, which resulted in movement of CRs to a greater or lesser degree.



I think that's a pretty complete list of the changes. Stat Ability Gain, Feat Gain, Wealth By Level, Experience Points required and Experience Points gained did not change.

[LOTRfan]

Wow. That's a pretty good job at summing it up.

[McSmack]

Yeah 3.0 haste was broken. The action economy wasn't as well defined, and partial actions were basically standard actions. So haste was something you had to have. A hasted spellcaster could throw out two spells/round without metamagic. The worst thing I remember about it was that you could get an armor enchantment to give you haste. It was a +3 price modifier. Haste alone gave you an extra +4 to AC. EVERYONE had haste.

They fixed a few more things like DR and animal companions, and combining feats like Ambidexterity and TWF.

3.0 stuff can be wonky when used with 3.5, I'm not aware of any rule saying 3.0 things can be used in 3.5, as far as I know nothing was posted in any of the 3.5 core books about it. In general you'd just check with the DM to see if he'd allow it.

[Tvtyrant]

Hast allowed you to cast an extra spell in 3.0, which made nova the name of the game.

Swrdsage

[tonberrian]

There also was a handful of feat modifications - Weapon Finesse requires you to select a weapon in 3.0 but not in 3.5, Ambidexterity was rolled into TWF, Expertise was renamed Combat Expertise, Greater TWF wasn't Core in 3.0, IUS didn't let you deal lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes in 3.0 while it does in 3.5, Power Attack didn't multiply for 2-handers in 3.0 as opposed to 3.5, Skill Focus was +2 in 3.0 rather than +3 in 3.5, and Spell Focus was +2 in 3.0 as opposed to +1 in 3.5. There might be more, as well.

Concealment and Cover were significantly more complicated in 3.0 than the simple system of Cover/No Cover and No Concealment/Concealment/Full Concealment in 3.5.

As for 3.x? I always read that as 3.5 + 3.0, simply because that's what it was before Pathfinder was a thing.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

3.0 stuff can be wonky when used with 3.5, I'm not aware of any rule saying 3.0 things can be used in 3.5, as far as I know nothing was posted in any of the 3.5 core books about it. In general you'd just check with the DM to see if he'd allow it.

Actually, that rule existed on a webpage found on the WotC site. Basically, if it ain't updated, it's still kosher! Whether or not that page still exists, is another question, however.

[NNescio]

IIRC spell ranges work differently. Spell Range in 3.0 dictates the maximum range between the caster and the spell's point of origin -- a fireball detonated at its maximum range still explodes as a fireball, for example. Spell Range in 3.5, however, dictates the maximum range from the caster wherein the spell would still take effect -- a fireball detonated at 10ft short of its maximum range would have its effects abruptly cut-off at the points where the spell effect exceeds its maximum range.

[Saintheart]

That's like saying "fruit doesn't include bananas, because bananas are yellow."

But cheese is yellow, too, so why are you using a cheese colour for 3.0 and 3.5 rules ...

Oh.

:smallbiggrin:

[Vladislav]

To add to the list of changes

- Druid's animal companion works differently in 3.0 and 3.5.
- <Animal>'s <Attribute> spells (eg. Bull's Strength) had their duration changed from hr/level to min/level, quite a letdown.
- Haste was completely nerfed from "extra standard action" to "extra attack on a full attack".

[Draz74]

- <Animal>'s <Attribute> spells (eg. Bull's Strength) had their duration changed from hr/level to min/level, quite a letdown.

On the other hand, not all six of them even existed in 3.0 (wasn't it just Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength, at least in Core?). And the benefit they provided was +1d4 to an ability, rather than a consistent +4.

[Jude_H]

And the benefit they provided was +1d4 to an ability, rather than a consistent +4.
The cool thing about that is that with metamagic they stood as viable alternatives to advanced ability enhancement gear.

The paperwork was a bit of a drag, though.

[ken-do-nim]

- Haste was completely nerfed from "extra standard action" to "extra attack on a full attack".

I fully believe that haste was not intended to allow casting an extra spell or activating a power in 3.0, just as it didn't in AD&D. It should read "an extra partial physical action". Monte Cook himself, one of the authors of the game, has a 3.0 supplement that introduces a new 9th level spell that allows casting two spells per round instead of one, so he obviously didn't see it that way.