Neverwinter Nights

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, just this morning I finally found my old copy of Neverwinter Nights: Platinum Edition and I've decided to load it up and give it another go around and see how I do this time.

When I first got and played this game it was years and years before I really got into playing Dungeons and Dragons so I basically just putted around and got nothing done. But now that I have become a denizen of homebrew and optimization forums, I have to ask....

How does the game end up being?

Is every class basically equal? Or are Wizards still gods of batman-ery and Monks and Fighters a total waste of time?

Are humans still the best race to pick or do all of the species shine equally?

[Domochevsky]

Monks are monster, due to gaining another attack every +4 instead of +5 and some other nice things. I think "Easy Modo" is what they call it. :smallcool:

(The races are pretty equal all in all.)

[Anonomuss]

Wizards have a harder time in the early game, but are gods of destruction as you continue up in levels, as in much of 3e. They are helped by the fact that resting is quick and easy, so there's no penalty for tossing out high level spells like they're going out of fashion.

[Daremonai]

in NWN, melee is king, unless you literally stop and rest every 5 minutes. You're up against way more fights than you would be in a "real" D&D game, and there's no room for creative uses of spells. On top of that, WBL is just about completely ignored, and enemies don't really use tactics other than mobbing.

A wizard's limited spells per day run out FAST. At least a Cleric can pick up a weapon and kick ass when his spells run dry.

[Kane]

Hordes of the Underdark is the one that ends up in epic levels, and my favorite NWN game, period. Fighters actually end up pretty well off, basically getting the ability to insta-kill on critical hits, and critical hit about every other attack. Casters don't get so much in Epic, but are already high level casters, so, you know...

Still, I confess, the first time I started HotU with a fifteenth level sorcerer, my reaction was "I WIN AT EVERYTHING FOREVER!".


At least until I got to Mephisto, and found out that maximized Isaac's Greater Missile Storm doesn't do anything to him, due to the damage being spread out and having such high DR.

[Lord of the Helms]

Is every class basically equal? Or are Wizards still gods of batman-ery and Monks and Fighters a total waste of time?


More or less every class can get through the game with relative ease most of the time. Rogues have it the hardest, since there's lots of construct and undead type enemies that you can't sneak attack, and most of your rogue skills are of little use (almost every lock that could be picked can be bashed or cast open, traps ignored, opening them brings no XP, Wizards and sorcerers get a familiar that has all the neccessary rogue skills, etc). Wizards are annoying to play because of the constant re-arranging of your spells. They are much less impressive than in PnP because there are no fly spells, stone walls or force walls or force cages or any other number of surefire defensive spells, they simply cannot kill enemies as well as a properly statted and equipped warrior (be they Monk, Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian or even Ranger) and lots of enemies are immune or resistant to their most dangerous offensive spells. Plus, summons kind of suck: They are very weak compared to proper warriors or compared to the enemies you face, and using them actually lowers the XP you gain. Sorcerers are more fun and effective: They have more spells per day, more ease of use, benefit far more from metamagic feats since they can cast meta'd spells on the fly, and in fact end up walking through the game as mobile artillery.

All games campagins are fairly high magic. You get tons of supremely good magic items that will a) help make your character immune to almost everything other than plain old melee damage and b) make a lot of protective spells obsolete.

In epic levels like in HotU, Warriors reign supreme. Especially anything with 7 levels of Weapon Master and Devastating Criticals. Magic type characters become worse in epic levels: Their spells don't get any better, nor do they get any more, yet you have to keep leveling as a caster to avoid falling behind on DCs or caster level. There are epic spells, but the only one that's actually good and helful is Epic Warding.

And yes, Monks are pretty good throughout most of the game. They still suffer from 3E rules as far as damage reduction is concerned (They're better off in NWN2 with its 3.5 rules), but they make up for it with a decent BAB, lots and lots of attacks, and oh yeah, being virtually unkillable.

Oh, right. Clerics are still excellent. Not on CoDzilla levels, but way better than wizards. Druids kind of suck, since shapeshifting is terrible in this game unless you become a shifter, and I don't think NWN1 has the Natural Spell feat.

So yeah. Warriors are best, along with clerics. Fighter and Barbarian are the cream of the crop since they can pump Str like crazy, Monks and esepcially Paladins do suffer a fair bit from their MADness. Sorcerers are good. Wizards and Druids are on the lower end. Rogues can be very good with levels in Shadowdancer, but will have trouble with a lot of enemies and bosses who are immmune to sneak attacks. And bards kind of suck.

[Eldan]

Well, from what I remember from my one time playing the original campaign:

I played a pure wizard all the way through. However, at about level 12, I got bored with spellcasting and grabbed two katanas and TWF. With some buff spells, I still handily got through the entire game, including the final boss.

Yes, as a wizard with melee weapons, on medium difficulty.

Overall, the original campaign was pretty easy.

I played the first expansion as a monk. They are great for one reason: movement speed. You save a lot of time on some of the larger mnps when you move three times as fast.

[Kislath]

What I liked the most about it was the toolset. With it, you can create and place all sorts of stuff to improve things in the lame spots. ( better reward items for tough quests, more skeletons to bash, etc )

[Mx.Silver]

How does the game end up being?

Difficult question there. The OC is hands-down the worst game Bioware have produced to date. The expansion packs are better, but Shadows is still on the mediocre side, while Hordes is adaquate. So in terms of an out-the-box game it's not very good.
As a toolset however it's got a lot to recomend it and there are a lot of good custom modules and campaigns out there for download. There's also a lot of mods out there too, some of which add so many new classes and abilities it's not even funny. Whether that's enough to make up for the official campaigns though is something you'll have to decide for yourself.



Is every class basically equal? Or are Wizards still gods of batman-ery and Monks and Fighters a total waste of time?
Classes are far from equal. As others have mentioned, Wizards aren't spectacular (sorcerers tend to be better choices) while fighters and the warrior classes actually rank pretty high (as do clerics). Rogues however are pretty weak and the prestige classes vary wildly in terms of usefullness (with Weapon Master near the top and Pale Master somewhere around the bottom).



Are humans still the best race to pick or do all of the species shine equally?
Humans still pretty much outshine everything else.

[Lord of the Helms]

Difficult question there. The OC is hands-down the worst game Bioware have produced to date. The expansion packs are better, but Shadows is still on the mediocre side, while Hordes is adaquate. So in terms of an out-the-box game it's not very good.
As a toolset however it's got a lot to recomend it and there are a lot of good custom modules and campaigns out there for download. There's also a lot of mods out there too, some of which add so many new classes and abilities it's not even funny. Whether that's enough to make up for the official campaigns though is something you'll have to decide for yourself.


I have to agree yet disagree here: The OC is the worst campaign by the standards of Bioware. That means, however, that it's still perfectly decent and enjoyable, just not spectacular. It's greatest downside is how combat heavy it is, and that the writing is on-and-off.

SoU, however, I would never call mediocre, it was a very good low to mid level campaign. Hordes of the Underdark is hands down excellent.

That said, there is at least one series of fan-made modules (Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher) that is better than any of the original campaigns, and a whole host of other very good campaigns (Penultima was fantastic on the comedy side, Elegia/Excrutia Eternum on the mystery side, and Hordes of the Underdark on the evil roleplaying and combat side, and that's just the best ones I've played) that can easily keep up with professional game design standards.


Well, from what I remember from my one time playing the original campaign:

I played a pure wizard all the way through. However, at about level 12, I got bored with spellcasting and grabbed two katanas and TWF. With some buff spells, I still handily got through the entire game, including the final boss.

Yes, as a wizard with melee weapons, on medium difficulty.

Overall, the original campaign was pretty easy.

I played the first expansion as a monk. They are great for one reason: movement speed. You save a lot of time on some of the larger mnps when you move three times as fast.

This, I can actually kind of second: Even as a spellcaster, going melee is viable. My first playthrough of the game was a sorcerer with one level of rogue. With BAB 9 and 1d6 sneak attack, I'd beat most enemies by dual-wielding daggers, buffing the hell out of myself and killing the enemies that my barbarian henchman tied up in melee. I'd occasionally cast time stop when facing bosses, then just beat on them for the duration of the spell, and recast it for another barrage.

[Closet_Skeleton]

NWN wizards basically end up being blasters with defensive buffs on them and area effect spells are a lot harder to use in pseudo-real time than in turn based.

I have no idea how monks are so good in NWN but they are.

[Lord of the Helms]

I have no idea how monks are so good in NWN but they are.

Ridiculously good defenses on all fronts plus a number of useful special attacks, including two very good ones that as far as I know aren't D&D standard for them (namely cleave and improved knockdown as bonus feats). Plus, for all its bugginess, Circle Kick, leading to an even more ludicrous number of attacks per round.

[Mx.Silver]

I have to agree yet disagree here: The OC is the worst campaign by the standards of Bioware. That means, however, that it's still perfectly decent and enjoyable, just not spectacular. It's greatest downside is how combat heavy it is, and that the writing is on-and-off.
It's an attempt to make a solo Diablo II style hack-and-slasher game with a rules set clearly designed for party based combat. So the combat is inferior, while the writing (which is normally Bioware's 'thing') is decidedly middle-of-the-road. True, it's only 'terrible' if you're comparing it to other Bioware games (not that this isn't a perfectly fair thing to do, mind) but even in regards to the wider market in general it's not particularly good.



SoU, however, I would never call mediocre, it was a very good low to mid level campaign.
Actually, I'd give this one about your assessment of the OC, not terrible but definitely not up to Bioware's standard. I'd rate it about equal to the NWN2 OC overall.

Hordes of the Underdark is hands down excellent.

HotU does not hold-up to KOTOR, Mass Effect nor several other such games that are actually 'hands down excellent'. HotU is good, but it's not that good. Not even close.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's an attempt to make a solo Diablo II style hack-and-slasher game with a rules set clearly designed for party based combat.

Its basically an FPS single player without the virtues of being short. NWN is a multiplayer game. Its an MMO with private servers. There are some good single player campaigns but they weren't the main draw.




Actually, I'd give this one about your assessment of the OC, not terrible but definitely not up to Bioware's standard. I'd rate it about equal to the NWN2 OC overall.


Bioware didn't make Shadows of Undrentide.

[Mx.Silver]

Its basically an FPS single player without the virtues of being short. NWN is a multiplayer game. Its an MMO with private servers.
No argument there.



Bioware didn't make Shadows of Undrentide.
They co-developed it, iirc.

[Lord of the Helms]

HotU does not hold-up to KOTOR, Mass Effect nor several other such games that are actually 'hands down excellent'. HotU is good, but it's not that good. Not even close.

I'd say it holds up pretty well to KOTOR in the writing department and is superior in terms of RPG mechanics and choices available for your character, but inferior in combat control. I have a hard time comparing it to Mass Effect - ME's main questline is definitely more fun and far better staged, but HotU manages to have more exciting side quests and has a more open-worlded feeling while being a semi-liniar dungeon crawl than Mass Effect has in an entire galaxy open to you.

[MickJay]

Ridiculously good defenses on all fronts plus a number of useful special attacks, including two very good ones that as far as I know aren't D&D standard for them (namely cleave and improved knockdown as bonus feats). Plus, for all its bugginess, Circle Kick, leading to an even more ludicrous number of attacks per round.

Plus extra attacks, plus relatively few good prestige classes, plus some items that nicely synergise with Monk characters, etc, etc. In terms of sheer power, a WM with two-handed sword will outperform a monk, but monks are just more fun to play. There are some nice dual kama builds that require at least one level of monk, too, allowing up to 9 attacks per round (and allow monks to make a use of the magical forge in HotU).

[Starwulf]

It's an attempt to make a solo Diablo II style hack-and-slasher game with a rules set clearly designed for party based combat. So the combat is inferior, while the writing (which is normally Bioware's 'thing') is decidedly middle-of-the-road. True, it's only 'terrible' if you're comparing it to other Bioware games (not that this isn't a perfectly fair thing to do, mind) but even in regards to the wider market in general it's not particularly good.


Actually, I'd give this one about your assessment of the OC, not terrible but definitely not up to Bioware's standard. I'd rate it about equal to the NWN2 OC overall.

HotU does not hold-up to KOTOR, Mass Effect nor several other such games that are actually 'hands down excellent'. HotU is good, but it's not that good. Not even close.

Fully disagree on all counts. I loved the storyline of the OC, it was enjoyable and really, a great introduction to that style of gaming/storytelling.

Comparing SoU to the freaking OC of NWN2...If I could, I would reach through the computer and smack your head. NWN2 was the buggiest POS I've ever seen, period, bar none. Having been there at launch, I remember the forums being absolutely FLOODED with people who couldn't even get the game to work properly(a Black screen of death that would occur just trying to load the game) and still occurred until the THIRD FREAKING PATCH. No, I'm sorry, but SoU is far, far, FAR superior to NWN2 OC, and was actually a great, though a bit short, adventure, and was made all the better by the way it was tied directly into HoTU, bringing me to the next point:

Saying HoTU is not comparable to ME, or KOTOR is strictly opinion and likely comes down to the individual. Having played all of them, I can easily say I much prefer HoTU over any of them. Not a big Star wars Fan, so, Strike against KOTOR. Not a big "Guns" fan in general in games, so Strike against ME. On the other hand, I love Forgotten Realms and anything to do with it. So, coupled along with the great storyline in HoTU and the fact that it had parts of SoU AND NWN OC tied into(Aribeth anyone?), made it all that much more enjoyable.

I guess really the first and third of your points are strictly opinion, but the second one..no, that can not be debate-able at all. SoU was not buggy on any major level when released, as a matter of fact, I played straight through it right out of the box on it's release day with no issues whatsoever. On the other hand, NWN2 OC was unplayable for at least 5-10% of the playerbase due to the black screen of death, and that's NOT counting the multitude of bugs that were STILL being corrected by Obsidian up to the point where they were forbidden to work on it anymore due to the lawsuit between Atari and, iirc, WoTC.

[Mx.Silver]

I'd say it holds up pretty well to KOTOR in the writing department and is superior in terms of RPG mechanics and choices available for your character, but inferior in combat control. I have a hard time comparing it to Mass Effect - ME's main questline is definitely more fun and far better staged, but HotU manages to have more exciting side quests and has a more open-worlded feeling while being a semi-liniar dungeon crawl than Mass Effect has in an entire galaxy open to you.
I think you're underselling ME's side-quests, but I guess we'll just have to aggree to disagree.



Saying HoTU is not comparable to ME, or KOTOR is strictly opinion and likely comes down to the individual.
Well they were better written, with better engines, better overall gameplay, better character interactions.
But yeah, you're really going to play the 'that's just your opinion' card? When you open with this?:

I loved the storyline of the OC, it was enjoyable and really, a great introduction to that style of gaming/storytelling.
But ok, I'll bite. Now, it's surprising you feel that way considering that the first main mission is a string of glorified fetch quests that end-up being largely pointless due to the incredibly obvious traitor guy working for 'generic evil cult du jour'. The later parts are basically 'oh no generic evil cult are attacking go stop them'. In terms of characterisation, there's a reason the only NPC anyone remembers is Aribeth: she's the only one who had any real impact on the game and is the only one who the PC had any meaningful interactions with. The henchmen are largely inconsequential other than 'dude who helps your main character out a bit', Fenthick is only notable in being arbitrarily killed-off to give Aribeth character development and the villains have nothing particularly memorable about them at all (which is pretty damn amazing given that Bioware has been able to create seriousy memorable villains in almost everything other game they've made). The PC had very little impact on the direction the story took, beyond killing/redeeming Aribeth, and the only real difference your whole alignment played was a few subquests and how much of a jerk you sound when you spoke to people. I know bioware's moral systems have never been exactly perfect but they'd done better in Throne of Bhaal and would go on to do better in their subsequent games.
Ah, but the OC was mainly a hack and slasher. Granted, but it was a solo hack and slasher (with maybe an ally whome you had little direct control over) based off an engine designed with party based combat in mind. The upshot being that it lacked the quality of a true-action RPG (and yes, I'm including Jade Empire) and didn't have anything like the tactical depth of party-based combat to make up for it. In a multi-player setting this wouldn't matter (since you can form proper parties and go nuts) but in single-player? That's a problem.

On SoU vs. NWN2:
I'll freely concede that SoU easily beats NWN2 on the bug front and were I comparing them as games rather than as campaigns I'd take that into account (although I had very little trouble with bugs personally, I'm aware I was lucky in that regard). Thing is, if you take bugs out of the equation (which you'd probably have to given that we're talking about playing the games now rather than travelling back in time to when they were released) Shadows doesn't really have much if anything in the way of advantages left. Both campaigns have their plus points, both have their flaws. Neither are going to be winning any awards, but both were serviceable for what they were (the second half of NWN2's first chapter notwithstanding). Since I'm not factoring-in bugs in SoU's favour, I won't be applying the combat options in NWN2's either (nor will I bring-in Mask of the Betrayer).

In regards to HotU I will admit that I have never beaten it, due to the disk getting scratched and my hard drive getting wiped. I'm unlikely to go back and replay it (as all my complaints about NWN's engine and combat within it still apply) so the storyline could well have become amazing. If you don't like Star Wars that's fine (I don't either), but dismissing KOTOR on those grounds alone is a mistake. It's characters are extremely well-done as is the writing of the main plot (the Revan thing is carried-off almost to perfection).
If you don't care for shooters then I can understand that as well (again, I'm not fond of the genre myself) but the writing, especially of the characters (ME2 in particular) is of a quality you rarely see in games (especially shooters). The combat, unsurprisingly, is also something it handles better than NWN and ME2's save imports goes way, way, beyond the callbacks to the other Campaigns in HotU.

[Lord of the Helms]

I think you're underselling ME's side-quests, but I guess we'll just have to aggree to disagree.


On the first Mass Effect, I'm not sure it's possible to undersell the sidequests, as they were just plain terrible and even the ones with a more interesting backstory always boiled down to agonizing Mako exploration combined with going through the exact same buildings or mine shafts over and over and killing everyone who got in your way. The only decent ones were the purely or mostly talk-based ones on the citadel.

Sure, the second Mass Effect had excellent sidequests, but the first one was really jarring in their poorness, especially from the company that made Baldur's Gate 2 (aka the undisputed king of sidequest awesomeness in gaming history).

[Starwulf]

I think you're underselling ME's side-quests, but I guess we'll just have to aggree to disagree.


Well they were better written, with better engines, better overall gameplay, better character interactions.
But yeah, you're really going to play the 'that's just your opinion' card? When you open with this?:

But ok, I'll bite. Now, it's surprising you feel that way considering that the first main mission is a string of glorified fetch quests that end-up being largely pointless due to the incredibly obvious traitor guy working for 'generic evil cult du jour'. The later parts are basically 'oh no generic evil cult are attacking go stop them'. In terms of characterisation, there's a reason the only NPC anyone remembers is Aribeth: she's the only one who had any real impact on the game and is the only one who the PC had any meaningful interactions with. The henchmen are largely inconsequential other than 'dude who helps your main character out a bit', Fenthick is only notable in being arbitrarily killed-off to give Aribeth character development and the villains have nothing particularly memorable about them at all (which is pretty damn amazing given that Bioware has been able to create seriousy memorable villains in almost everything other game they've made). The PC had very little impact on the direction the story took, beyond killing/redeeming Aribeth, and the only real difference your whole alignment played was a few subquests and how much of a jerk you sound when you spoke to people. I know bioware's moral systems have never been exactly perfect but they'd done better in Throne of Bhaal and would go on to do better in their subsequent games.
Ah, but the OC was mainly a hack and slasher. Granted, but it was a solo hack and slasher (with maybe an ally whome you had little direct control over) based off an engine designed with party based combat in mind. The upshot being that it lacked the quality of a true-action RPG (and yes, I'm including Jade Empire) and didn't have anything like the tactical depth of party-based combat to make up for it. In a multi-player setting this wouldn't matter (since you can form proper parties and go nuts) but in single-player? That's a problem.

On SoU vs. NWN2:
I'll freely concede that SoU easily beats NWN2 on the bug front and were I comparing them as games rather than as campaigns I'd take that into account (although I had very little trouble with bugs personally, I'm aware I was lucky in that regard). Thing is, if you take bugs out of the equation (which you'd probably have to given that we're talking about playing the games now rather than travelling back in time to when they were released) Shadows doesn't really have much if anything in the way of advantages left. Both campaigns have their plus points, both have their flaws. Neither are going to be winning any awards, but both were serviceable for what they were (the second half of NWN2's first chapter notwithstanding). Since I'm not factoring-in bugs in SoU's favour, I won't be applying the combat options in NWN2's either (nor will I bring-in Mask of the Betrayer).

In regards to HotU I will admit that I have never beaten it, due to the disk getting scratched and my hard drive getting wiped. I'm unlikely to go back and replay it (as all my complaints about NWN's engine and combat within it still apply) so the storyline could well have become amazing. If you don't like Star Wars that's fine (I don't either), but dismissing KOTOR on those grounds alone is a mistake. It's characters are extremely well-done as is the writing of the main plot (the Revan thing is carried-off almost to perfection).
If you don't care for shooters then I can understand that as well (again, I'm not fond of the genre myself) but the writing, especially of the characters (ME2 in particular) is of a quality you rarely see in games (especially shooters). The combat, unsurprisingly, is also something it handles better than NWN and ME2's save imports goes way, way, beyond the callbacks to the other Campaigns in HotU.

I guess I truly enjoyed the storyline of the NWN OC because it introduced me to two things that at the time I had never heard of when it came to the Forgotten Realms. The Arcane Tower in chapter 2 that is part of Luskan and the creatures(it's been a long time, so I can't recall their name) that had been there before even the dragons. Coupled with the myriad of optional side-quests(and there were a ton, on my first playthrough, I ended up about level 15 or 16, I missed a ton, On my third, I was level 19 when I finished, and probably could have been 20 if I had did certain quests in a certain order to maximize exp gain), the fact that I had never PLAYED Baldurs Gate at that point in time(don't worry, I have since) so I had nothing to compare it to besides my own limited D&D experience from when I was 13, playing NWN was like a dream come true for me, being able to control a character inside the Forgotten Realms universe. Also, I enjoyed the combat. It may not always have made sense(Yes, being able to sleep for 24 hours every 5 minutes(like an hour in-game) was a bit silly, but, ehh, you have to keep game balance somehow, or mages would have been worthless), but it was still fun, and very easy to master.

So yes, I will play the "Just your opinion" card. I've introduced 4 friends to Mass effect AND neverwinter nights, and none of them have preferred ME over NWN. Course, one of them didn't like either, but ehh, he's a strict FPS/sports game person, and there were to many RPG elements in ME for him to enjoy it. I'd mention the modding tools, but I'm pretty sure you've already said those were top-notch.

I can't play a game based completely around a specific universe if I don't enjoy that specific universe, especially one as complex and in-depth as Star Wars. KOTOR is built 100% around that with lots of stuff included that only a Star Wars person would understand, and if I don't fully understand references being made, I'll just start getting pissed, so, reasonably, I've never wasted my time with it. One of only a few games of Bioware's that I've never played(DA2, KOTOR 2 being the others).

Mass Effect I have actually played, even own a copy of it for the 360(maybe I'd have liked it better for the PC, never know, my wife messed up buying me the 360 when I had asked for the PC version), and it's just not my cup of tea. While I like the RPG elements, to much of a FPS still for me. Also, I'll say this, you're one of the FEW people I've ever seen say ANYTHING good about ME2, that game usually gets ripped on by most people, so maybe your opinion is just as skewed as mine.

[Lord of the Helms]

Also, I'll say this, you're one of the FEW people I've ever seen say ANYTHING good about ME2, that game usually gets ripped on by most people, so maybe your opinion is just as skewed as mine.

That is really suprising; I've honestly only seen a handful of people complain about ME 2, whether on this forum or elsewhere. Check out the massive threads we've had here to see the fandom it has. Or, alternatively, see this for some perspective on the reception it got either critically or by players: http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/mass-effect-2

I'm not sure if I've seen anyone who compared ME2 unfavorably to ME 1. At worst, I've seen comments like "this change wasn't right, or "that one went too far" or "the finale isn't as awe-inspiring as the one in the first game", but the vast majority of comments I've ever seen called it an improved sequel.

And yes, for the record, I agree: I loved Mass Effect 2, it was my favorite Bioware game since Baldur's Gate II (superior to any NWN campaign, Kotor or even its own predecessor, while Dragon Age and Jade Empire come close) and my favorite overall RPG since Vampire Bloodlines (which is saying something, as Bloodlines is literally the only game released in the past ten years that I enjoyed as much as the BG Saga, Planescape Torment or Deus Ex ).

[Starwulf]

That is really suprising; I've honestly only seen a handful of people complain about ME 2, whether on this forum or elsewhere. Check out the massive threads we've had here to see the fandom it has. Or, alternatively, see this for some perspective on the reception it got either critically or by players: http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/mass-effect-2

I'm not sure if I've seen anyone who compared ME2 unfavorably to ME 1. At worst, I've seen comments like "this change wasn't right, or "that one went too far" or "the finale isn't as awe-inspiring as the one in the first game", but the vast majority of comments I've ever seen called it an improved sequel.

And yes, for the record, I agree: I loved Mass Effect 2, it was my favorite Bioware game since Baldur's Gate II (superior to any NWN campaign, Kotor or even its own predecessor, while Dragon Age and Jade Empire come close) and my favorite overall RPG since Vampire Bloodlines (which is saying something, as Bloodlines is literally the only game released in the past ten years that I enjoyed as much as the BG Saga, Planescape Torment or Deus Ex ).

Ok, I may have exaggerated when I said "few", but on the forums I normally browse, it's usually split down the middle on people who hate it, vs people who love it. I rarely see in-betweeners when it comes to ME2, it's a very polarizing game. Many people feel the RPG elements were watered down with to much of an emphasis on the FPS side, while the other side thinks the changes were great and would like to see it evolve even more to the FPS side with less RPG elements.

I'll admit though, one thing I have noticed is that even among the people who don't like ME2 and the way the series has headed, they still plan on buying the third regardless, which I can't say the same for DA2. From all I've garnered, Bioware dropped the ball hard-core on DA2.

[Mx.Silver]

So yes, I will play the "Just your opinion" card.
Even though your entire response to my above criticisims of the OC can be summed up as 'well I like it?'. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not allowed to like it, but if that's the entire crux of your response then why are you making a fuss about my opinion?



I've introduced 4 friends to Mass effect AND neverwinter nights, and none of them have preferred ME over NWN.
So? I mean, the majority opinion is that NWN's OC isn't as good as Bioware's usual creations but just saying that isn't making a point either.



I'd mention the modding tools, but I'm pretty sure you've already said those were top-notch.
I've never disputed that NWN is good for modding and multi-player. My complaints are with what it offers for the single-player (you know, the part of the game that most people are going to play).



I can't play a game based completely around a specific universe if I don't enjoy that specific universe, especially one as complex and in-depth as Star Wars. KOTOR is built 100% around that with lots of stuff included that only a Star Wars person would understand, and if I don't fully understand references being made, I'll just start getting pissed, so, reasonably, I've never wasted my time with it.
It's entirely possible to play KOTOR with no real knowledge of Star Wars (I know people who rate it as one of their who've never seen any of the films). There's really not much to it that would make it any harder to approach than any game set in an original setting (probably because it's set thousands of years outside the timeline of the films). Aside from maybe what a lightsaber or what a jedi is, but those are well into common knowledge by now.



One of only a few games of Bioware's that I've never played(DA2, KOTOR 2 being the others).
KOTOR 2 was Obsidian's creation, iirc. Suffered from being massively rushed hence the common complaint that it's basically unfinished.


Also, I'll say this, you're one of the FEW people I've ever seen say ANYTHING good about ME2, that game usually gets ripped on by most people, so maybe your opinion is just as skewed as mine.
What Lord of the Helms said. The only people I've seen who really dislike ME2 are the Hardcore RPG crowd, who generally react negatively to games that reduce the presence of stat blocks (and as such are probably not going to be fond of a shooter-RPG hybrid to begin with).


From all I've garnered, Bioware dropped the ball hard-core on DA2.
I wasn't that fond of DA:O so I haven't played it. I tend to take fan moaning with a grain of salt though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

On the first Mass Effect, I'm not sure it's possible to undersell the sidequests, as they were just plain terrible and even the ones with a more interesting backstory always boiled down to agonizing Mako exploration combined with going through the exact same buildings or mine shafts over and over and killing everyone who got in your way. The only decent ones were the purely or mostly talk-based ones on the citadel.

Sure, the second Mass Effect had excellent sidequests, but the first one was really jarring in their poorness, especially from the company that made Baldur's Gate 2 (aka the undisputed king of sidequest awesomeness in gaming history).

The first Mass Effect's sidequests were mostly let down by re-using alll the same levels.

Of couse ME2 had better sidequests, it was all sidequest.

Citing BG2 is cheating, it beats everything on volume alone. If ME was top down with low res graphics and only 20% voice acting it would have that much depth to its sidequests too.


In terms of characterisation, there's a reason the only NPC anyone remembers is Aribeth Vagar: she's the only one who had any real impact on the game and is the only one who the PC had any meaningful interactions with.

Fixed.

Aribeth is so generic nothing about her sticks in my head despite how much time was spent on her. I remember her alternate universe copy that appears in one scene more than her.




On SoU vs. NWN2:

Shadows of Undrentide wins on pacing alone. By the time I got bored and gave up on the NWN2 OC because nothing was happening I would have been half way through SoU and easily willing to push through to the end.

Anyway, the NWN2 OC apparently ends with a roof falling on you. SoU ends with a giant flying city crashing into the ground while you jump into another dimension. Sounds cooler to me even if SoU's coolness happened off freaking screen.

I hated Dragon Age. Kaiden's "i've dealt with my issues" speal sounds like a parody of every character in that game apart from the old lady. She was okay. The dwarf wasn't too bad but was just a watered down version of the BG2 evil dwarf. The difficulty also seemed to randomly jump from "too easy" to "reload 5 times".

[Lord of the Helms]

The first Mass Effect's sidequests were mostly let down by re-using alll the same levels.

Of couse ME2 had better sidequests, it was all sidequest.

Citing BG2 is cheating, it beats everything on volume alone. If ME was top down with low res graphics and only 20% voice acting it would have that much depth to its sidequests too.


When I talk about ME2 sidequests, I mean the missions that are neither hunt for collectors, nor recruitment/loyalty. Missions discovered by scanning planets, receiving transmissions, talking to people on various planets etc. They aren't all brilliant, but at least they offer a decent amount of variation in gameplay, enemy types, backstory and levels, plus some good writing and the occasional choices in their outcome.

Mass Effect 1 sidequests suffered from almost everything. It reused the same levels over and over; those happened to be very dull and boring levels; there was little or no decent writing behind most of them; gameplay was the same over and over (i.e. kill everything in sight). Baldur's Gate 2 wins by superior level and quest design, better writing and, yes, having these awesome sidequests in stupifying amounts, which makes it more, not less, impressive that each and every single one of them is better than anything you'd encounter in ME 1. Yes, it's an unattainable gold standard nowadays, but that does not excuse having a handful of all-out terrible side quests.

On NWN 2: I liked the OC. It wasn't excellent, but it entertained me throughout and actually had lots and lots of stuff happening and a fair few fun and entertaining party members (sure, some of them do kinda suck, but between Khelgar, Grobnar, Sand, Bishop, Neeshka and Shandra, there were more fun characters than not). And while the ending was... not too good (though Mask of the Betrayer fixed this), but the finale still consists of a very impressive battle where you control EVERY potential party member of yours (bar two or three traitors you get to kill, this leaves you controlling a squad of up to 10 level 20 characters plus summons/ animal companions/familiars) in an epic D&D slugfest against the Big Bad and his allies.

[Starwulf]

Even though your entire response to my above criticisims of the OC can be summed up as 'well I like it?'. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not allowed to like it, but if that's the entire crux of your response then why are you making a fuss about my opinion?


My problem is that you are claiming all of YOUR OPINION as fact, saying that NWN had a poorer story, and then try to claim that "It's a majority opinion that NWN is one of Biowares Poorer creations". That's what I"m making a fuss about. In my experience, people LOVE NWN. I've never seen a "Majority" of people say they don't like NWN. So, in reality, the entire Crux of YOUR ARGUMENT is "Well, I don't like it". You try to argue with "Facts" but it's all just your opinion in the end. When I originally responded, I was merely stating that in MY OPINION, the game is perfectly fine, damn fun, and was over-all a great game. I was trying to give the OP another post to weigh in his decision to whether or not it was worth it to play through the game.

TL:DR Stop trying to pass your opinions off as facts, and then complaining when someone else comes along with a completely different viewpoint.

[Mx.Silver]

My problem is that you are claiming all of YOUR OPINION as fact,
Ah right. In a discussion about the merits of a game or such, it's generally safe to presume that people are speaking from their own opinion even when they don't include a line to the effect of: 'of course this is only what I personally think and who knows you may have a completely different opinion of it' at the end of every paragraph. Rather than assuming that their experience is the only indisputable truth and that anyone who sees otherwise must have something wrong with their perceptions of reality (which is what 'presenting opinion as fact' would mean).

I mean, if you take this assumption then most of the responses in this thread are 'trying to present their opinion as fact'.


and then try to claim that "It's a majority opinion that NWN is one of Biowares Poorer creations".
But saying that Single-player NWN isn't as good as the single-player in other bioware games pretty much is the majority opinion, at least as far as the reviews and larger forums I've been on are concerned. This doesn't mean everyone agrees or that no one likes the NWN OC (you and your friends are obvious examples of this), but it's a relevent thing to mention in a thread where someone is planning to play the game and is asking questions about how the game is (because statistically they're more likely to have this opinion than not).


In my experience, people LOVE NWN. I've never seen a "Majority" of people say they don't like NWN.
I've never disputed that NWN is popular, but you have to admit that a lot of it's popularity is down mainly to it's multi-player and toolset capabilities (which I've stated numerous times are the game's strong points). Indeed, back when NWN2 came out most of the complaints from NWN vets on the official (that weren't about the game's bugs) were about the changes to the toolset and the impact this would have on the community, which was a significant



So, in reality, the entire Crux of YOUR ARGUMENT is "Well, I don't like it". You try to argue with "Facts" but it's all just your opinion in the end.
Well of course it's my opinion. That's rather the point :smallconfused:



When I originally responded, I was merely stating that in MY OPINION, the game is perfectly fine, damn fun, and was over-all a great game. I was trying to give the OP another post to weigh in his decision to whether or not it was worth it to play through the game.
Yes. To which I responded by listing the problems I'd seen in the single-player. Regardless of how it may seem, I am still interested in seeing where and why you differ on those.


TL:DR Stop trying to pass your opinions off as facts,
I'm not. At least not intentionally


and then complaining when someone else comes along with a completely different viewpoint.
The only thing I was intending to complain about was your rather strident usage of the 'that's just your opinion' line. It's a practice I tend to find annoying, because it doesn't allow for much discussion and, in my view, rather misses the point of a discussion/argument.
My intent with the rest of my response was to express my disagreements with you, with the intent of getting some kind of discussion going. I wasn't complaining that you held a different view, more establish how and why our views differed (as is the point of a discussion).
I apologise if this didn't come across very well. I often sound rather stark and I'm not really great at being tactful either.

[Starwulf]

Ah right. In a discussion about the merits of a game or such, it's generally safe to presume that people are speaking from their own opinion even when they don't include a line to the effect of: 'of course this is only what I personally think and who knows you may have a completely different opinion of it' at the end of every paragraph. Rather than assuming that their experience is the only indisputable truth and that anyone who sees otherwise must have something wrong with their perceptions of reality (which is what 'presenting opinion as fact' would mean).

I mean, if you take this assumption then most of the responses in this thread are 'trying to present their opinion as fact'.


But saying that Single-player NWN isn't as good as the single-player in other bioware games pretty much is the majority opinion, at least as far as the reviews and larger forums I've been on are concerned. This doesn't mean everyone agrees or that no one likes the NWN OC (you and your friends are obvious examples of this), but it's a relevent thing to mention in a thread where someone is planning to play the game and is asking questions about how the game is (because statistically they're more likely to have this opinion than not).


I've never disputed that NWN is popular, but you have to admit that a lot of it's popularity is down mainly to it's multi-player and toolset capabilities (which I've stated numerous times are the game's strong points). Indeed, back when NWN2 came out most of the complaints from NWN vets on the official (that weren't about the game's bugs) were about the changes to the toolset and the impact this would have on the community, which was a significant


Well of course it's my opinion. That's rather the point :smallconfused:


Yes. To which I responded by listing the problems I'd seen in the single-player. Regardless of how it may seem, I am still interested in seeing where and why you differ on those.

I'm not. At least not intentionally

The only thing I was intending to complain about was your rather strident usage of the 'that's just your opinion' line. It's a practice I tend to find annoying, because it doesn't allow for much discussion and, in my view, rather misses the point of a discussion/argument.
My intent with the rest of my response was to express my disagreements with you, with the intent of getting some kind of discussion going. I wasn't complaining that you held a different view, more establish how and why our views differed (as is the point of a discussion).
I apologise if this didn't come across very well. I often sound rather stark and I'm not really great at being tactful either.

Well, see, in the end, I was just trying to state my opinion. I didn't want to get into a debate over how and why it's a better game then ME. It was just a quick 2 minute post about how I disagreed with your assessment, and that I found it quite enjoyable. And I STILL Disagree with you saying that "Single-player NWN isn't as good as the single-player in other bioware games pretty much is the majority opinion". The forums that I've been on and the people I know that have played more then 2 of Biowares games all agree that NWN was a great game and just as on par with their other games. I'll freely admit, it doesn't compare to Baldurs Gate, but that's the only one I can think of that it falls short to. Honestly, unless you have a poll with over say...10,000 people voting(and only one vote per person), I don't think you can say "Majority". I don't EVER trust reviews done by magazines, as I often find I like games they don't give sterling reviews to. The only thing Magazine and site reviews are good for are to weed out the truly terrible games(scores of 2 or lower on a scale of 10, 1 on a scale of 5), and the Truly awesome (scores of 9-10 on a scale of 10, 4.5-5 on a scale of 5).

Also, I've said that I fully enjoy the gameplay, the storyline, the adjusted 3.0 mechanics that were input to the game. I think they did a great job of interpreting skill-sets, changing certain ones to fit an actual video games. They did a DECENT job at making sure no class was to vastly over-powered compared to others. Of course one or two slipped through the cracks being over/under, but in a game that has that many different classes with a multitude of ways to change them through attributes/skills/feats, of course there is going to be a couple of builds that players will find a way to min-max to the extreme.

I also think the game was a great way to get people not so interested in D&D into the game, as it made it fairly easy to play without getting TOO bogged down(since they had Starting packages for every class), and once they got them playing, I imagine lots of those people eventually started experimenting with making their own characters, and then eventually those people started getting into the traditional Pen and Paper version, which is great! ME may have been a good game, but it didn't have the side effect of drawing people into a new culture of gaming, which is a HUGE plus for NWN imho.

Yes, the multi-player/modding aspect of it was better, but I just don't think anyone should write off the Single-Player as being sub-par compared to any other games, including other BioWare games. Also, you mention fetch quests: That's 90% of the quests in ANY game. TES Games, BioWare games, Obsidian games, JRPGs, WRPGS, Action RPGS. At least I found the NWN fetch quests to be well-written and intriguing. One of my favorites was the one in Chapter 1 that had you investigating an Archeological dig, ending up finding a buried Tomb in some womans house with Floating Swords as guards. Or Fighting Obould in Chapter 3. That was fun as hell. Or the Adventuring Maze in Chapter 2, I loved that. I also liked how you could develop relationships with all of the henchmen, each of them progressing through each and every chapter, telling a bit more of their story, eventually leading to knowing all about their past(and depending on your gender, falling in love with you) and getting a cool item out of it to boot. The same goes with Aribeth: A slight Redemption at the end or a total fall from grace, depending on how much you talked to her throughout the chapters and got to know her.

Shadows of Undertide! That was my first real taste of Netheril ANYTHING, and the first mention of the Phaerrimm I had ever had as well, which of course greatly sparked my interest and I started researching the books involving them and then going out to buy them(I still haven't bought the Fall of Netheril books though, I really need to find them on Amazon or E-bay). Storyline was pretty good, and the mechanics were, of course, improved upon. The biggest improvement was the fact that they actually had hidden doors/rooms that you could only find if you had a high spot check and were in Spot mode. There were a lot of things a person would miss out on if they didn't have a decent modifier/didn't switch to spot mode. Then there was the introduction of Deekin, perhaps the most memorable of all characters in the NWN series, and a person that could never be obtained if you didn't rescue him in the first chapter. It was a bit short, I'll admit, but it was enough to make me glad I bought it, not to mention the introduction of PrCs, a couple of new skills and feats.

HoTU, the true crown of the series. Starts out at level 14 if you didn't import your character from SoU(or NWN OC), and ended up around level 28 or so depending on how you handled quests and killing everything. The storyline was absolutely brilliant and very engrossing. The addition of Epic level spells, feats, a host of new PrCs, the ability to Dye your armor, and of course to craft magical items, the addition of the ability to hire two henchmen, getting to trek through Undermountain. There isn't really anything negative that I can think of when it comes to HoTU. It added a multitude of new things, it's storyline was masterfully written, the mechanics were adjusted/refined to an even higher degree, it was, really, the culmination of all the hard-work put in on the OC and SoU. Everything that could be improved upon, was. Things that people wanted, were added. I really can't say enough good things about HoTU. Hell, just talking about it makes me want to find my Flash drive that has the 1.69 NWN patch on it, install all 3 and it, and go to town playing it all start to finish again.

[Winthur]

Hey guys. My game doesn't work even with 1.69 patch. As in, I could play it, if I were a masochist. But I'm not and I don't feel like playing with my screen having a whole bunch of black lines which take the width of my entire screen and drag it down, making the screen shake and flicker. It happens on the main menu, in character creation screen, in game, everywhere.

I have a Nvidia GeForce GTS 250. Windows 7, newest DirectX.

And yes, I toyed with options and googled a lot for "flickering textures" and "flickering graphics", nothing helps. :smallannoyed:

[Eldan]

You tried randomly adjusting all the graphics parameters? I had "invisible characters" for a while. As in "all creatures are invisible, safe for part of their clothes". Which for some weird reason was fixed by switching shadows and water shaders off.

[Winthur]

I set all of those graphics settings in very various ways, from turning some off, to setting them up so that they'd form up a perfect fengshui for me, and I consulted my horoscope. In other words - yes. :smallsigh:

It happens not only in game, but in every menu. Except, weirdly enough, for the opening cinematics, which show off logos for Atari, BioWare, etc.

[Starwulf]

and, I can resist no longer. I broke down and installed NWN through HoTU and 1.69 patch. Quick question, does CEP(community enhancement(I think?) patch) affect anything on the regular game, or is it just so you can support mods that the community at large makes + join persistent worlds that run CEP?

[Ogremindes]

and, I can resist no longer. I broke down and installed NWN through HoTU and 1.69 patch. Quick question, does CEP(community enhancement(I think?) patch) affect anything on the regular game, or is it just so you can support mods that the community at large makes + join persistent worlds that run CEP?

Not without editing the files for the campaigns, IIRC.

[Ozymandias]

and, I can resist no longer. I broke down and installed NWN through HoTU and 1.69 patch. Quick question, does CEP(community enhancement(I think?) patch) affect anything on the regular game, or is it just so you can support mods that the community at large makes + join persistent worlds that run CEP?

I don't think it does, although you can probably add them in with an editor or something.

I recommend using the PrC pack instead; it adds lots of new content that's available in the singleplayer campaigns (if you can get over the dragon fetish).

[Starwulf]

I don't think it does, although you can probably add them in with an editor or something.

I recommend using the PrC pack instead; it adds lots of new content that's available in the singleplayer campaigns (if you can get over the dragon fetish).

What's the PrC pack? What all does it add, and most importantly, how big of a file is it? To big and I'll have to drive to a friends house so I can d/l it, I'm on a 26.4k dial-up connection ^^

[Squark]

An enormous hakpack that adds something like 25-25 base classes, maybe 100 prcs, and several hundred feats and spells. If your computer itself is slow, I'd avoid it. It's not a bad mod, it just really eats up RAM when running.

[Starwulf]

An enormous hakpack that adds something like 25-25 base classes, maybe 100 prcs, and several hundred feats and spells. If your computer itself is slow, I'd avoid it. It's not a bad mod, it just really eats up RAM when running.

lol, no, just my internet is slow, my computer is quite capable of handling that. That is actually awesome sounding, it's exactly what I was thinking of asking around on the NWN forums for soon, as I was hoping there would be something that would add classes like Psion, Duskblade, Swashbuckler and so on. That's pretty sweet ^^.

[Ogremindes]

Now I've gone and installed NWN on my new computer. I think I'll play a Halfling Shifter again, dunno what tertiary class. Rogue or another prestige class I guess.

[Kane]

I don't suppose anyone has information on properly patching content back in? I am under the impression (perhaps 'illusion'?) that there were significant parts of Hordes of the Underdark dialogue that are not actually accessible in game, but included on the disk. (Ending to the romances, I believe, and Options for messing around with the various True Names you can acquire.

If someone knows how to fix that, I would be interested.

[Kish]

There are a lot of things you can do with the True Names. The things they took out--turning Aribeth, Nathyrra, and Valen into your slaves, reforming Mephistopheles--they took out for a reason. You can use the toolset to restore turning Aribeth, Nathyrra, and Valen into slaves, if you want :smalleek:, but it's quite impossible to reform Mephistopheles. (You can make it so that you have the dialogue option and he agrees, but the epilogue will not reflect it.)

I don't believe there is any romance content that you don't actually see by default in the game.

[Giant Panda]

Ah, Neverwinter Nights. The game that got me into RPG's. Thanks to you guys, I might have to dust of my old copy.

[Kane]

There are a lot of things you can do with the True Names. The things they took out--turning Aribeth, Nathyrra, and Valen into your slaves, reforming Mephistopheles--they took out for a reason. You can use the toolset to restore turning Aribeth, Nathyrra, and Valen into slaves, if you want :smalleek:, but it's quite impossible to reform Mephistopheles. (You can make it so that you have the dialogue option and he agrees, but the epilogue will not reflect it.)

I don't believe there is any romance content that you don't actually see by default in the game.

My information was likely wrong, but I was under the impression that the ending of the romances (or even just one of them? I read this somewhere and don't really remember.) don't trigger in the wastes of Cania, meaning that there's not really any conclusion to the matter.

But I will take your word for it. I was likely misremembering or trusting a poor source.

[Castaras]

I loved HotU. I had a halfling rogue-monk. Which was awesome. Sneak attack karate chop their kneecaps! :smallbiggrin:

[Just_Ice]

I like NwN. The only part of 3.5 where you aren't totally punched in the nads for playing non-spellcasting melee. You can hardly really call it 3.5.

Personally, I found SoU to be the worst of the campaigns, though still pretty fun because I played it with a friend. The plot was all over the place, the characters were unmemorable, and the floating city had a lot of silly hoops to jump through. The last boss was fun (chugged ALL of those saved-up potions), and it started out pretty well, though. On the plus side, you weren't aribeth's errand boy for the majority of the game, but considering how incoherent everything was, I'm not sure it's a change for the better.

The Original Campaign was very okay. It seemed pretty low fantasy/beer-and-pretzels-ish, which is hard to complain about when you like the fighter. I got completely bored in chapter two because it wasn't particularly engrossing to genocide one-race caves or get lost looking for Luskan.

I barely played any of Kingmaker, but it didn't grab my attention.

HotU, though glitchy in multiplayer, containing two fights that are basically impossible (evil party and that demi-lich in the golem place) and containing a really bloody difficult last boss (I think with full buffs I was hitting him on _18... until we found out he wasn't immune to petrification from a basilisk. Things got funnier... though actually to his credit he reverts every quarter of the fight), was totally the best of the lot. The plot was okay, but you got a lot of choices, the Underdark is just an awesome dungeon, and you rarely felt like somebody's lackey. Also, epic level is handled quite well in a computer game.

I played a little NwN 2 with a friend and we agreed that nothing interesting had really happened, so we stopped.

[Kish]

You can't call it 3.5 at all, since it predates 3.5ed and is entirely based on 3.0ed.

[Douglas]

a really bloody difficult last boss (I think with full buffs I was hitting him on _18... until we found out he wasn't immune to petrification from a basilisk.
The one that really amused me was that he's not immune to fear - which I found out when he rolled a 1 against the ridiculously low DC on-hit fear from my scimitar. There he was, trash-talking supremely confident final boss who'd been trashing a whole major city (in Faerun, no less) by himself, and he still ran in blind panic from me for 12 seconds.

[Kane]

The one that really amused me was that he's not immune to fear - which I found out when he rolled a 1 against the ridiculously low DC on-hit fear from my scimitar. There he was, trash-talking supremely confident final boss who'd been trashing a whole major city (in Faerun, no less) by himself, and he still ran in blind panic from me for 12 seconds.

Heh. I, on the other hand, was a 26th level sorcerer who had been spamming maximized greater missile storm for the game. And I suddenly found out his DR could soak each missile entirely, without even harming him...

I tried fighting him a couple of times, realized that only Valen was doing anything, whatsoever, to him, and ended up loading so I could resolve it with, ah, words. Very good words. Expensive, too.

[VanBuren]

You can't call it 3.5 at all, since it predates 3.5ed and is entirely based on 3.0ed.

That said, the statement is still valid even with that correction.

[brujon]

Heh. I, on the other hand, was a 26th level sorcerer who had been spamming maximized greater missile storm for the game. And I suddenly found out his DR could soak each missile entirely, without even harming him...

I tried fighting him a couple of times, realized that only Valen was doing anything, whatsoever, to him, and ended up loading so I could resolve it with, ah, words. Very good words. Expensive, too.

Imagine my face when i found out he was not immune to INSTANT DEATH EFFECTS! I finger of death him and what do you know... Cania no longer has a ruler. I think it has since been patched, but it happened. It's funny, because they thought adding a +50 modifier to everything would be enough, but, what do you know, he critically fails saves on a 1 ;)


I'll tell the OP this: I actually CRIED at the end of HotU. I can't recall many games where i actually cried at the end. The final dialogues with Deekin, the way he expresses his sentiments, for all that you've done for him, and you remember everything since SoU... It's just priceless. For real. HotU for me has the best character development ever, and i've played Icewind Dale, Pool of Radiance, Planescape: Torment, and Baldur's Gate 2... (But i still think Fall-From-Grace is on par with Deekin, it's just too awesome!)

For me, NWN is a very, very worthy game to buy. I played NWN2, but the first is superior on everything, to me, except graphics. The Menus are more interactive, the controls are better, toolset more expansive, and i could go on. I'm not saying NWN2 is not worth it too, but it's just a shadow of the former. If i could give it points 1-10, i'd give it a 7, whereas the first would definitely make it to a 10.

The OC in NWN... Not very good, admittedly. Can't recall any real memorable fights, and only few sidequests are really entertaining. SoU and HotU, in the other hand, are much more interesting. There are a TON of options, and dialogue really changes things throughout the game. A multitude of sidequests, some just as epic as the main one, really make the game shine for me. To boot, the game has very good modules... some even bigger than the official campaigns (E.G Tormented Hearts 1 & 2...). I could give you a list, but you're better off going with the community on this. All my recommendations are way up there (At most page 3 of the "Top Rated" modules) -> nwvault.ign.com <- go there, be happy. But play the original campaigns first. It'll give you something to compare them to.

I'll agree to basically everything that was said about the first campaign of NWN2. But people left out one of the most important and overarching sidequests, which for me basically redeemed the game: Reforming your keep. There are a TON of sidequests you have to make to get your keep running to maximum efficiency... Finding someone to open an INN, a MARKET, a BLACKSMITH... Recruiting someone to train your troops, finding out what's wrong with the roads, finding out more veins of ore... Striking deals with a lot of people, etc... It's very entertaining, and when your keep is sieged, the battle is truly epic. The showdown with the King of Shadows is meh in comparison.

So, i'd say... They're both old games, and really cheap to buy. They're definitely worth the time necessary to complete, and i'd wager you'll find yourself wasting much more time than that playing the games... I know i have. NWN is a game 10 years old, and i still play it. And still think it's better than anything similar that launched since.

[Squark]

One module you should definately try out, though, is Darkness over Daggerford. It was done by Obsidion, actually, and the producer was one of the guys who worked on BGII. Really fun mod, frankly.

[VanBuren]

One module you should definately try out, though, is Darkness over Daggerford. It was done by Obsidion, actually, and the producer was one of the guys who worked on BGII. Really fun mod, frankly.

Uh, no. Obsidian had nothing to do with it. It was created a group of fan-modders known as Ossian Studios.

[Starwulf]

Uh, no. Obsidian had nothing to do with it. It was created a group of fan-modders known as Ossian Studios.

IIRC, Ossian Studios also did the Mysteries of Westgate mini-expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2, and it sold quite well.

[Ogremindes]

My Halfling Rogue/Druid (soon to be shifter) has just about finished Chapter 1 of SoU (utterly creaming the sorceress even without using the powder, due to being in panther form. And I remember that fight being hard). Anyone know if there's anything interesting I should look at buying before moving on, or should I hold on to my pennies?

[Starwulf]

My Halfling Rogue/Druid (soon to be shifter) has just about finished Chapter 1 of SoU (utterly creaming the sorceress even without using the powder, due to being in panther form. And I remember that fight being hard). Anyone know if there's anything interesting I should look at buying before moving on, or should I hold on to my pennies?

Couple of nice items in the interlude(closer to the end then the beginning though) IIRC