Bard builds?

[BIGMamaSloth]

I love bards and will be making one for a new group I recently joined. The problem is that I have never made anything other than bard 20 and My new group has a bit higher optimization level than I'm use to. SO i'm asking the playground for build suggestions for a bard of mid-high optimization.

I was thinking some kind of mix of virtuoso and sublime chord but I wasn't completely set on that Idea if anyone's got something else fun.

sorry If I'm being to vague or asking of too much.

[Talya]

I love bards and will be making one for a new group I recently joined. The problem is that I have never made anything other than bard 20 and My new group has a bit higher optimization level than I'm use to. SO i'm asking the playground for build suggestions for a bard of mid-high optimization.

I was thinking some kind of mix of virtuoso and sublime chord but I wasn't completely set on that Idea if anyone's got something else fun.

sorry If I'm being to vague or asking of too much.

Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge/Sublime Chord should get you through optimized groups well.

[myancey]

Words of Creation and...something from one of the dragon books--Dragon song inspiration? I forget which..but its beautiful in the very least, especially at high levels.

[Lateral]

Dragonfire Inspiration, from Dragon Magic.

[gorfnab]

Basic Bard Builds:
Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Bard Gishes:
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Handbooks:
Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

[Zaq]

What they said. However, I will note that Bard 20 can be perfectly respectable in and of itself. Very few things advance all of a Bard's main abilities without some kind of sacrifice.

[theForce017]

If you are into the party buff idea then here's your build.

Bard 10/Seeker of the Song 2/Bard 8

Race: Silverbrow Human
Feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, Music of Growth
Items: Harmonizing Weapon, Vest of Legends, & Badge of Valor

This will allow you to use your Inspire Courage to get +6 bonus and then a +12 with Words of Creation. Now using the Seeker of the Songs Combine Song class ability, you can use Dragonfire Inspiration as one song and Inspire Courage as your second song. This gives all players in range +12d6 fire damage and +12 to hit and damage on top of that.

(I remember being able to get that higher but don't remember off the top of my head):elan:

[Zaq]

If you are into the party buff idea then here's your build.

Bard 10/Seeker of the Song 2/Bard 8

Race: Silverbrow Human
Feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, Music of Growth
Items: Harmonizing Weapon, Vest of Legends, & Badge of Valor

This will allow you to use your Inspire Courage to get +6 bonus and then a +12 with Words of Creation. Now using the Seeker of the Songs Combine Song class ability, you can use Dragonfire Inspiration as one song and Inspire Courage as your second song. This gives all players in range +12d6 fire damage and +12 to hit and damage on top of that.

(I remember being able to get that higher but don't remember off the top of my head):elan:

Orrrrrr you could just use Lingering Song, unless you're really into those super-drawn-out encounters.

[Flickerdart]

Gnome Bard 6. The ACFs Phantasmal Song and Inspire Awe. The feat Haunting Melody. The spell Harmonize. Your favourite way to get extra move actions. Now, activate Phantasmal Song and Inspire Awe. Haunting Melody triggers. Each of these makes things Shaken, so together, everything within 30 feet is now panicked.

You don't have to be 20th level to make a cool Bard build.

[BIGMamaSloth]

so with the virtuoso can I advance the sublime chord's casting? and does it improve my inspire courage bonus stacked with my bard levels?

also, what do you mean by gnome bard 6? do gnomes get extra bard goodies? :smallconfused:

[theForce017]

Orrrrrr you could just use Lingering Song, unless you're really into those super-drawn-out encounters.

I just figure that if an encounter does go on for a while you don't have to worry about how long it lasts and allows you to do other tasks during the encounter such as healing. But yes that is a good point. (I enjoy feats, so any way to get around using one and using it for something else :smallwink: )

[Zaq]

I just figure that if an encounter does go on for a while you don't have to worry about how long it lasts and allows you to do other tasks during the encounter such as healing. But yes that is a good point. (I enjoy feats, so any way to get around using one and using it for something else :smallwink: )

You can use the feat that you saved by not taking Skill Focus: Perform to get into Seeker of the Song, and you can do it before level 12. Just sayin'.

[tonberrian]

You can use the feat that you saved by not taking Skill Focus: Perform to get into Seeker of the Song, and you can do it before level 12. Just sayin'.

On the other hand, you can stack Lingering Song with Combine Songs to get Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Inspire Greatness all at once.

[gorfnab]

so with the virtuoso can I advance the sublime chord's casting? and does it improve my inspire courage bonus stacked with my bard levels?
Yes and Yes.


also, what do you mean by gnome bard 6? do gnomes get extra bard goodies? :smallconfused:
Gnome Bard Racial Substitution - Races of Stone page 148.

[BIGMamaSloth]

someone suggested bard 8/ virtuoso 2/ sublime chord 2/ virtuoso 8 earlier in the thread, but I'm just wondering why you would take the second level in the sublime chord class if you get the spell casting of it from the first level. also couldn't you go bard 7/ virtuoso 3/ sublime cord 1/ virtuoso 7/ bard +2 to roughly the same effect?

[Greenish]

couldn't you go bard 7/ virtuoso 3/ sublime cord 1/ virtuoso 7/ bard +2 to roughly the same effect?Yes, but SC gets a neat song at level 2.

[Edit]: Though I'd probably go for bard9/virtuoso1/sc2/virtuoso+8. Virtuoso's capstone wasn't so awesome, I seem to recall, and even if it were, well, Inspire Greatness comes online way earlier.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm currently playing a Bard in a PbP game here.

Character is 6th level. Has a MW Mandolin, Song of the Heart, and a Badge of Valor, so at 6th level (5 levels of Bard), he's giving out a +5 IC, with DFI (granted, he got a bonus feat to get DFI because of the GM's version of Elf, but you can achieve the same effect by going Human and getting said feat).

Now, the fun thing is that I'm dipping Dragon Shaman. Thanks to Dragontouched feat, the auras automatically increase based on character level anyways, so I get three auras for a one level dip. One of them adds to melee damage. Since I'm going DFI anyways, why not?

I'll be going into Seeker of the Song as well. Not the two-level dip, but the whole 10 levels. Why? Well, he's doubling as the party healbot, in addition to the DFI machine, and the Song of Life Refrain is just too good to pass up, considering how easy it is to max out a skill check. Plus, Subvocalize is too good to pass up, it's basically a free feat.

Dirge of Songdeath is fun when your GM decides to try to throw IC bards into the NPC's mix, and the Hymn of Spelldeath Refrain saves you a Spell Known, and usable a LOT more than you have 3rd level spell slots.

Does it advance casting? Not really. But it's a lot of fun.

[Gwendol]

How do you get IC to +5?

Base is +1, Inspirational boost is another +1, Song of the heart +1, and Badge of valor +1. I get +4, what am I missing?

[Talya]

What they said. However, I will note that Bard 20 can be perfectly respectable in and of itself. Very few things advance all of a Bard's main abilities without some kind of sacrifice.

QFT, and in fact, with alternate class features from a few sources, I much prefer it. It's the only way to make a real "bardic gish" as the wonderful Crystal Echoblades only key off of your bard class level. (I can't wait to start playing this one (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=48368) here.) It does fall a bit behind the tier 1/2 classes without PrCs though.


How do you get IC to +5?

Base is +1, Inspirational boost is another +1, Song of the heart +1, and Badge of valor +1. I get +4, what am I missing?

Probably a Vest of Legend (DMG2.) In addition to any other goodies it provides, it counts you as 5 levels higher for the purpose of the effect of your bardic music. At 16,000 gp, it's far outside appropriate WBL at 6, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How do you get IC to +5?

Base is +1, Inspirational boost is another +1, Song of the heart +1, and Badge of valor +1. I get +4, what am I missing?

Masterworked Mandolin gives another +1 to IC. Check it out in CAdv.

[Talya]

Masterworked Mandolin gives another +1 to IC. Check it out in CAdv.

Ah, yes. But it does prevent you from whacking the goblin next to you with your crystal echoblade, unless you've figured out how to play a mandolin 1 handed. Or have four arms. Hmmm. Thri-keen bard?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, yes. But it does prevent you from whacking the goblin next to you with your crystal echoblade, unless you've figured out how to play a mandolin 1 handed. Or have four arms. Hmmm. Thri-keen bard?

Right now? I'm doing more damage by giving the Summoner's swarms of disposable summoned minions +5d6 damage a hit (think what that does with Celestial Badgers who have 3 hits a pop and can summon 1d4+1 at a time) than I would be by wading into combat myself.

In the future? I'll be getting Harmonizing on my Crystal Echoblade. That'll let me start the music on turn 1, then switch to Crystal Echoblade and wade into combat on the next. And picking up the Vest of Legends. Those are the two next most expensive purchases on my list of Things To Get.

[Jarveiyan]

There is a 2nd level bard spell in complete scoundrel called animate instrument, that might help for inspiring and fighting.

[dspeyer]

What do you want your bard to do?

Magic rules at high levels, so sublime chord is almost always a good choice. It lets you take a few unrelated levels at 8 and 9 without sacrificing casting, so that may give you options. Crusader, for example, would give you some combat and buffing power. Or you can use these levels for non-advancing levels (like war weaver 1).

[Eldariel]

Yes, but SC gets a neat song at level 2.

[Edit]: Though I'd probably go for bard9/virtuoso1/sc2/virtuoso+8. Virtuoso's capstone wasn't so awesome, I seem to recall, and even if it were, well, Inspire Greatness comes online way earlier.

This is most likely the strongest "basic Bard" for the largest number of levels, far as simple Bard goes. You get 9s at an expedite manner and all the best songs (Inspire Greatness is a very strong song and should not be missed without a good cause; same goes for Song of the Arcane Power). Lyric Thaumaturge 5 is strong but unfortunately loses a level of Sublime Chord casting and really screws up your song progression depending on how you go about it (Inspire Courage is left in dust in Lyric Thaumaturge builds).

[Wings of Peace]

Dragonfire Inspiration with those marbles from ghostwalk that throw 3 at a time is always fun! :D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There is a 2nd level bard spell in complete scoundrel called animate instrument, that might help for inspiring and fighting.

That also leaves it open to attack as well. I'm not sure that is a favorable tradeoff.

[riddles]

Once you've got the shell of song the heart, badge of valor and inspirational boost (which will give you +3 to any inspire courage you have), your options are open. Dragonfire inspiration is good but not as necessary as people think. It depends entirely on your group makeup. If you have twf rogue, summoner, rapid shot archer or a pouncing barbarian, dfi is fantastic. For your standard power attackers (and probably you), regular IC is better.

Words of creation is iffy. I don't want to get into a RAW argument, but it was never clarfied whether it doubled your base IC or your full IC bonuses. It also involves heavy roleplaying restrictions and no bard I've ever played has been a goody two shoes.

Sublime chord is great at higher levels, but you easily go gish with crusader or warblade. Or even paladin.