is it possible to have a lich look completely human 3.5

[slaydemons]

as the title say I am looking for ways for this npc to seem just like a human besides illusions, a way to get rid of the corpse smell stuff like that.

[AsteriskAmp]

Gentle Repose upon death?
I believe the spell works like that (it makes a corpse stay in a state equal to the moment the spell was cast upon it), but I haven't checked.

[Hirax]

Polymorph?

[slaydemons]

Gentle Repose upon death?
I believe the spell works like that (it makes a corpse stay in a state equal to the moment the spell was cast upon it), but I haven't checked.

Its times like these I Know I over think these things. I was going to go like having a clock enveloped in cotton installed in her chest to replicate a human heart, something else for the heat of life, and I had no clue about the scent this makes it so she has to cast this spell every so often.

[bloodtide]

A lich can always change it's shape.


Various books have spells for liches to look good.

And several liches in FR look and smell human.


A lich can always use make-up and perfume too....

[AsteriskAmp]

Its times like these I Know I over think these things. I was going to go like having a clock enveloped in cotton installed in her chest to replicate a human heart, something else for the heat of life, and I had no clue about the scent this makes it so she has to cast this spell every so often.

This issue has been discussed before:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31989
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/288358-can-you-use-gentle-repose-undead.html

[Ravens_cry]

A lich trying to look human without spells aside from gentle repose would probably run into the uncanny valley if they were not careful. Living things breath, one would need to constantly have to inhale and exhale. Also, I doubt they would blink either unless they did so voluntarily. Blood pools in a corpse due to the lack of pumping of the heart, adding to the strange appearance. In the end, it would look like a fresh corpse walking around more than a living creature in my view.

[Tokiko Mima]

How about creating a simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) of whatever human you want to look like? This works better and makes more sense if the lich is injecting itself into an existing group of some kind

Or you could have the lich create a simulacrum of itself, and polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) it into the desired human form. That way the lich doesn't have to lower itself into a weaker human form and can keep researching magic or pursuing whatever projects lichs spend centuries doing.

After all you need to see this from the lichs' perspective, returning to human form means you have to spend 33% of your time sleeping, 15% more taking care of various digestive/body needs, you get headaches, you feel pain, heat, cold, you have emotions that are difficult to understand while you are experiencing them. Why would you want to go back to that sad condition once you've spent years in an ultimately successful attempt to escape it?

[Shadowleaf]

A lich trying to look human without spells aside from gentle repose would probably run into the uncanny valley if they were not careful. Living things breath, one would need to constantly have to inhale and exhale. Also, I doubt they would blink either unless they did so voluntarily. Blood pools in a corpse due to the lack of pumping of the heart, adding to the strange appearance. In the end, it would look like a fresh corpse walking around more than a living creature in my view.
Breath is also a big issue. A lich's lungs don't work - that's a dead giveaway if it is cold enough.

Liches have the same issue with sweating.

[NNescio]

Prestidigitation?

[Ravens_cry]

Breath is also a big issue. A lich's lungs don't work - that's a dead giveaway if it is cold enough.

Liches have the same issue with sweating.
Well, you can voluntarily work your lungs, so I am assuming a lich can voluntarily man the bellows, as it were, even if it doesn't provide oxygen. Keeping it up while maintaining concentration on spells and other things (like blinking) would require a Concentration check in my view.
Sweating is harder.

[Tvtyrant]

Keep Alter Self persisted at all times?

[AsteriskAmp]

Well, you can voluntarily work your lungs, so I am assuming a lich can voluntarily man the bellows, as it were, even if it doesn't provide oxygen. Keeping it up while maintaining concentration on spells and other things (like blinking) would require a Concentration check in my view.
Sweating is harder.

Just say you have CIPA.

[Hirax]

Keep Alter Self persisted at all times?

Alter self restricts to creatures of your type, and undead isn't a very good type for the named purpose. Hence polymorph. Anyone that sees through polymorph is also going to see through attempts to turn yourself into what amounts to a terminator, except instead of a mechanical skeleton with synthetic flesh and blood, you're an actual skeleton.

[Zaydos]

Prestidigitation?

It could chill, flavor, or warm you. The others affect objects (not creatures) or simply lifts 1 pound of "material" (note that this is not the same as providing 1 pound of force)


Keep Alter Self persisted at all times?

Would allow you to transform into another undead creature. You'd want Disguise Self but that's only illusory and only visually.

[Tvtyrant]

Alter self restricts to creatures of your type, and undead isn't a very good type for the named purpose. Hence polymorph. Anyone that sees through polymorph is also going to see through attempts to turn yourself into what amounts to a terminator, except instead of a mechanical skeleton with synthetic flesh and blood, you're an actual skeleton.
Well there is always Vampire Spawn, which look just like people. And there is basically nothing you can do against Truesight.

[Zaydos]

Alter self restricts to creatures of your type, and undead isn't a very good type for the named purpose. Hence polymorph. Anyone that sees through polymorph is also going to see through attempts to turn yourself into what amounts to a terminator, except instead of a mechanical skeleton with synthetic flesh and blood, you're an actual skeleton.

If it's non-magical True Seeing won't see through it.


Well there is always Vampire Spawn, which look just like people. And there is basically nothing you can do against Truesight.

Mundane disguises. Gentle Repose (as this doesn't change your true form but only prevents it from changing) + fake breathing + Disguise Kit could possibly do it.

[Hirax]

If it's non-magical True Seeing won't see through it.

A burly spot check could. Or lifesense. Or deathsense.

[Fable Wright]

A changeling would actually work for this. They change their form as if by "Disguise self", meaning they can look like anyone, but it isn't an illusion; they actually shift to manifest those traits. It's probably amongst the better solutions, as it now can change it's form to screw with people even more.

[Talakeal]

After all you need to see this from the lichs' perspective, returning to human form means you have to spend 33% of your time sleeping, 15% more taking care of various digestive/body needs, you get headaches, you feel pain, heat, cold, you have emotions that are difficult to understand while you are experiencing them. Why would you want to go back to that sad condition once you've spent years in an ultimately successful attempt to escape it?

But without sleep there are no dreams, and without emotion there is no love and no joy. Without pain there can be no pleasure, without starvation no gluttony, and without poison no drunken revelry. Even dread can turn into excitement when you have centuries to romanticize what has been lost.

Of course, you could just become a vampire like me and have the best of both worlds :[

[Hirax]

Ah, here's the spell I was trying to think of that makes mundane disguises useless
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm

[Rixx]

But without sleep there are no dreams, and without emotion there is no love and no joy. Without pain there can be no pleasure, without starvation no gluttony, and without poison no drunken revelry. Even dread can turn into excitement when you have centuries to romanticize what has been lost.

Of course, you could just become a vampire like me and have the best of both worlds :[

I'm going to wager that you aren't really a vampire.

[Tvtyrant]

But without sleep there are no dreams, and without emotion there is no love and no joy. Without pain there can be no pleasure, without starvation no gluttony, and without poison no drunken revelry. Even dread can turn into excitement when you have centuries to romanticize what has been lost.

Of course, you could just become a vampire like me and have the best of both worlds :[

You don't need to sleep but your staying on the internet? Why? You could travel the planet and never have to pay for an apartment or hotel! The cost would be a quarter of normal!

[Talakeal]

I'm going to wager that you aren't really a vampire.

We'll see about that come sundown!

[Ravens_cry]

Just say you have CIPA.
Yeah, that will work in a Pseudo-medieval Fantasy setting. :smallsigh:

[DementedFellow]

There was a magic item in Ghostwalk that enabled just this. It was like a mask or something. Away from book at the moment, sorry.

[blazingshadow]

a ring of major image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorImage.htm) should work for the most part

edit: a ring of persistent image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/persistentImage.htm) should work too just program it to do the stuff real life ppl do like breathing and you are done

[Shadowleaf]

Well, you can voluntarily work your lungs, so I am assuming a lich can voluntarily man the bellows, as it were, even if it doesn't provide oxygen. Keeping it up while maintaining concentration on spells and other things (like blinking) would require a Concentration check in my view.
Sweating is harder.A lich's core temperature probably isn't that high, so his breath wouldn't fog. When I play V:tM, that's exactly what my Hunters look for. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

A lich's core temperature probably isn't that high, so his breath wouldn't fog. When I play V:tM, that's exactly what my Hunters look for. :smallbiggrin:
Swallow into your lungs a small, wet, heat source, like a prestidigitation-ed piece of wet wool, that help for a while.

[KillianHawkeye]

Swallow into your lungs a small, wet, heat source, like a prestidigitation-ed piece of wet wool, that help for a while.

How does one "swallow into your lungs??" :smallconfused::smallsigh:

[Alleine]

Did no one think "just max out disguise"? I mean, it is a skill and all. Not magical either so it can't be beaten by true seeing. Not that most of these suggestions aren't great/amusingly detailed.

[Ravens_cry]

How does one "swallow into your lungs??" :smallconfused::smallsigh:Well, I would imagine a lich probably lacks a gag or choking reflex. And if they do, they have thousands of years to unlearn them at zero risk to the lich. Do not try this at home kids, but if they were to tie the heated sponge onto a string , told their nack back and got a long thin skewer they could slide down their trachea, holding the flap that stops food from getting in when you swallow open and lower the sponge into a lung.

[J.Gellert]

as the title say I am looking for ways for this npc to seem just like a human besides illusions, a way to get rid of the corpse smell stuff like that.

It's an NPC, so you can just say it is so.

There even is precedent for this, at least as far back as 2nd edition AD&D, in published adventures (I have Castle Spulzeer in mind).

If you have to explain it mechanically:
1. Permanent Gentle Repose...
2. Item of Gentle Repose...
3. Said NPC has researched a custom spell that's equivalent to an instant duration Gentle Repose...
4. Said NPC has found a better way to achieve Lichdom, through which s/he no longer decays.

[mostlyharmful]

I homebrewed a package along the lines of Spellstiched awhile ago,

Vital Blooded, similar cost to Spellstiched except they look and feel alive, can mimic bodiliy functions and processes if they want, appear alive to magic short of true seeing. it was a little steep on the cost but its really really good protection for a caster, given all the invulnerabilities that come along with Undeadness and specific weak spots like fort saves being able to fool most everyone into targeting you with charm person and enervarations is great stuff. just be sure to tell the cleric before he tries to heal you.

[Milo v3]

How does one "swallow into your lungs??"
Swallowing into your lungs would be stupid. Just cut out your lungs, place the object into them and put it back. A lot simpler. :smalltongue:

[blazingshadow]

Vital Blooded, similar cost to Spellstiched except they look and feel alive, can mimic bodiliy functions and processes if they want, appear alive to magic short of true seeing.where do you find this?

[Ravens_cry]

Swallowing into your lungs would be stupid. Just cut out your lungs, place the object into them and put it back. A lot simpler. :smalltongue:

The trouble is then you can't inhale and exhale, which is part of the illusion.

[wuwuwu]

where do you find this?

I homebrewed a package along the lines of Spellstiched awhile ago,

I think they homebrewed it

[Analytica]

City of the Spider Queen has an item of permanent gentle repose. I imagine the lich also having underlings oil-massage it to keep the skin supple, wearing lots of perfume and makeup, and spending time in an environment that is body temperatured.

For maximum efficiency, use Draconic Polymorph, since that gets around the type requirements - standard polymorph by raw must target a living creature.

EDIT: Also note the Disguise Undead illusion spell.

[Dalek-K]

The lich wouldn't need to pretend to breathe unless he is running... And what self respecting lich would run when he could teleport or fly? :smalltongue:

Also the only time he would need to blink is when someone is staring directly at him.. How many times do you see people blink and actually pay attention to it?Seems like one of those things that you would just automatically assume they are doing off panel... err when you aren't looking.

Smell : Prestidigitation
Breathing: No need (cloak hides the chest rising and falling)
Skin... Illusions/Gentle Repose
Eye... Same as skin I guess...

The biggest problem I would imagine would be when he sets down to eat/drink... But then again he could put a bag of storing in his throat hole...

[Milo v3]

The trouble is then you can't inhale and exhale, which is part of the illusion.

If you could do it before you can do it now. They don't work either way so obviously the way you were pretending to breath was by using magic. Realistically all you have to do is create slight amounts of air come out of your mouth with I'm pretty sure you can do with Prestigtiation. And If I'm wrong then just create a level 0 spell which expels slight amounts of air from your body through your mouth. Basically a breath out spell useful only in disguises.

[Ravens_cry]

If you could do it before you can do it now. They don't work either way so obviously the way you were pretending to breath was by using magic. Realistically all you have to do is create slight amounts of air come out of your mouth with I'm pretty sure you can do with Prestigtiation. And If I'm wrong then just create a level 0 spell which expels slight amounts of air from your body through your mouth. Basically a breath out spell useful only in disguises.
Magic, what magic? A lich, with lungs and a diaphragm, even if the lungs no longer extract oxygen, could pretend to inhale and exhale by the same way you or I can voluntarily inhale or exhale.

[Milo v3]

Then you don't nessisarily need lungs. You only need to inhale air into your body then the wet wool makes it humid then you exhale and you "Breath" out moist air.

You wouldn't even need lungs if your pretending how you suggest.

[holywhippet]

Firstly, I don't see what gentle repose is supposed to do - it just keeps corpses from rotting. A lich isn't dead, it's undead.

Secondly, according to the SRD a lich has this:

Fear Aura (Su)

Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the lich’s level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich’s aura for 24 hours.

It's going to be kind of hard for a lich to pass as a normal human when everyone who looks at them will feel an urge to crap their pants.

One trick that might work is to craft a normal body out of stone literally on top of the lich's body. Then use stone to flesh to make it into dead flesh and finally use gentle repose to keep it from decaying. Apply a disguise kit and some means of heating your body and you've got a mostly believable body.

[slaydemons]

Well The aura of fear flavored into something not really it unless she wants it to happen other wise it makes the air uneasy about her

[mostlyharmful]

Firstly, I don't see what gentle repose is supposed to do - it just keeps corpses from rotting. A lich isn't dead, it's undead.

Secondly, according to the SRD a lich has this:


It's going to be kind of hard for a lich to pass as a normal human when everyone who looks at them will feel an urge to crap their pants.

One trick that might work is to craft a normal body out of stone literally on top of the lich's body. Then use stone to flesh to make it into dead flesh and finally use gentle repose to keep it from decaying. Apply a disguise kit and some means of heating your body and you've got a mostly believable body.

the fear aura is surpressable.

[blazingshadow]

i just remembered i once read about a 2nd edition or d20 undead creature that a lich could turn into a familiar and as long as you fed it blood it would envelop you and make you look like a living creature and give you a sense of smell and touch. i think it was called a skin cloak. the drawback was that if you were attacked it is the familiar that gets hurt


i'm googleing it but no luck yet

[crazyhedgewizrd]

the spell magic jar, move your soul into the body you want and kept the other soul traped

[Shadowleaf]

the spell magic jar, move your soul into the body you want and kept the other soul traped
But.. Then you'd lose your Lich bonuses.. :smallconfused:

[Heliomance]

How has no-one suggested the Disguise Undead spell? I'm pretty sure it's in the SPell COmpendium, and it's explicitly designed to do just this. Gives you a pulse, warmth, etc - if memory serves, it even fools deathwatch and the like.

[archon_huskie]

judst research a homebrewed spell/ritual that does it for you.

I'd make it swap out the fear aura for spell like ability that makes you appear as you did when alive.

[Voidhawk]

One thing people forget about Liches, is that they needn't be a full caster.
They just need to have Caster Level 11, and Craft Wonderous Item.

Your next BBEG: Lich BARD, with max ranks in Disguise, Bluff, Hide and Move Silently. The last two get a +8 racial bonus afterall..

Peasent: "Ahhhh!! A horrifying Undead!!"

Lich: *Puts on tophat and monocle* "I'm sorry my good sir, you insult me. I am Sir Lichington II, and I've merely been feeling very unwell as of late."

"Oh...apologies M'lud...my mistake...how can I help you?"

"I've been accosted by a group of adventuresome ruffians, can you gather the townsfolk and drive them out for me?"

"With pleasure sir!"

[slaydemons]

One thing people forget about Liches, is that they needn't be a full caster.
They just need to have Caster Level 11, and Craft Wonderous Item.

Your next BBEG: Lich BARD, with max ranks in Disguise, Bluff, Hide and Move Silently. The last two get a +8 racial bonus afterall..

Peasent: "Ahhhh!! A horrifying Undead!!"

Lich: *Puts on tophat and monocle* "I'm sorry my good sir, you insult me. I am Sir Lichington II, and I've merely been feeling very unwell as of late."

"Oh...apologies M'lud...my mistake...how can I help you?"

"I've been accosted by a group of adventuresome ruffians, can you gather the townsfolk and drive them out for me?"

"With pleasure sir!"

good sir....... That made me giggle

[NNescio]

One thing people forget about Liches, is that they needn't be a full caster.
They just need to have Caster Level 11, and Craft Wonderous Item.

Your next BBEG: Lich BARD, with max ranks in Disguise, Bluff, Hide and Move Silently. The last two get a +8 racial bonus afterall..

Peasent: "Ahhhh!! A horrifying Undead!!"

Lich: *Puts on tophat and monocle* "I'm sorry my good sir, you insult me. I am Sir Lichington II, and I've merely been feeling very unwell as of late."

"Oh...apologies M'lud...my mistake...how can I help you?"

"I've been accosted by a group of adventuresome ruffians, can you gather the townsfolk and drive them out for me?"

"With pleasure sir!"

Wait... wait... wait...

Lich BARD?

http://ompldr.org/vOHMwYQ/db602de744d9d3ac901002873d835493.jpg

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Quote:Originally Posted by crazyhedgewizrd
the spell magic jar, move your soul into the body you want and kept the other soul traped

But.. Then you'd lose your Lich bonuses.. :smallconfused:

only the physical ones, you dont need them in town