All-monk party

[NichG]

So I'm starting up a new arc of my current campaign, with new Lv3 characters. Turns out that through crazy coincidence all my players are playing monks, at least in the sense of having at least one level of that class.

First encounter of the campaign was the party versus an equal number of Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand-using Lv4 (completely unoptimized) Swordsages, who they managed to crush pretty handily. Score one for monks? (Or at least monk-psions and monk-bards and monk-clerics)

[Dr.Epic]

Monk bard? How does that work? Both classes have alignment restriction for the alignment of the other class.

[The Shadowmind]

Monk bard? How does that work? Both classes have alignment restriction for the alignment of the other class.

Take two level of monk, then change alignments and never look back.

[Ravens_cry]

Take two level of monk, then change alignments and never look back.
That's not a monk, that's a bard with two levels of monk tacked on, a real one horse, one rabbit stew, i.e. a bit heavy on the horse.

[Godskook]

Monk dips are far more awesome than many monk detractors are willing to admit. Its not until a few levels in that monks begin to suck. The tier list(which I assume you're familiar with) even mentions that a build can be as powerful as the most powerful class used in it, and in this case, that's tier 3, tier 1, and tier 1. No surprise they beat npcs who could only access a single tier 3 class.

In particular, monk/psion(with Tash) and monk/cleric(enlightened fist) are both great builds with proper optimization.

[El Dorado]

Would a monk/ranger be a Power Ranger?. . . :smallwink:

[Geigan]

Would a monk/ranger be a Power Ranger?. . . :smallwink:

Nah that would be a psychic warrior ranger:smallwink:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Throwing on ~1-2 levels of monk does not make a character a monk permanently. That's like saying every wizard that haves a level of fighter for easier entry into Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion is a fighter, even though he'll easily be more wizard than fighter relatively soon.

Assuming you just slapped some NPCs together, following the default stat array in the DMG against a party of unknown levels of monk/other stuff with unknown stat adjustment, I'm not surprised the "monks" won.

[Lateral]

Monk dips are far more awesome than many monk detractors are willing to admit. Its not until a few levels in that monks begin to suck. The tier list(which I assume you're familiar with) even mentions that a build can be as powerful as the most powerful class used in it, and in this case, that's tier 3, tier 1, and tier 1. No surprise they beat npcs who could only access a single tier 3 class.

In particular, monk/psion(with Tash) and monk/cleric(enlightened fist) are both great builds with proper optimization.

Tier 3, tier 2, and tier 1. Psions are tier 2.

[Greenish]

I see monk/psion tashatalora bandied about, but I fail to see the point. Even if you use a feat for int to AC, why take tashatalora? You're a half-BAB d4 hitdie psion, with very few powers aimed for melee combat, why'd you care about unarmed damage or flurry?

[Eldariel]

I see monk/psion tashatalora bandied about, but I fail to see the point. Even if you use a feat for int to AC, why take tashatalora? You're a half-BAB d4 hitdie psion, with very few powers aimed for melee combat, why'd you care about unarmed damage or flurry?

Generally the idea is to go Slayer and Tashalatora that. Though frankly, Psion (e.g. Egoist) powers are strong enough to become a combat machine without BAB and HD.

[Kaeso]

Monk dips are far more awesome than many monk detractors are willing to admit. Its not until a few levels in that monks begin to suck. The tier list(which I assume you're familiar with) even mentions that a build can be as powerful as the most powerful class used in it, and in this case, that's tier 3, tier 1, and tier 1. No surprise they beat npcs who could only access a single tier 3 class.

In particular, monk/psion(with Tash) and monk/cleric(enlightened fist) are both great builds with proper optimization.


Monk/cleric = sacred fist, Monk/Wizard = Enlightened fist. I thought I'd just clear that up :smallsmile:

And, to be honest, I prefer enlightened over sacred. Two monk levels and the prestige class don't offer a lot to clerics: they already have 3/4 BAB and a d8 hitdie, so this build just wastes spell levels for a minimal profit.

Enlightened fist, however, gains a small boost in hp and BAB, while also getting some nifty abilities (like being able to deliver touch and ray spells through a full round unarmed attack. Find a way to get pounce and you'll be debuffing left and right while dealing a decent ammount of damage).

[Leon]

I prefer Monk/Druid for Sacred Fist rather than Monk/Cleric, find it fits better.

[Eldariel]

I prefer Monk/Druid for Sacred Fist rather than Monk/Cleric, find it fits better.

Surely that depends on your character concept? Though it's kinda annoying how none of the Druid goodies comes along on that ride; Animal Companion, Wildshape, all that stops scaling. Monks and Clerics can both be monastic badasses :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

I see monk/psion tashatalora bandied about, but I fail to see the point. Even if you use a feat for int to AC, why take tashatalora? You're a half-BAB d4 hitdie psion, with very few powers aimed for melee combat, why'd you care about unarmed damage or flurry?

-Shared Pain
-Vigor
-Force Screen
-Inertial Armor
-Metamorphosis

That's 5 powers, 3 of which are level 1, and only one of which is discipline specific. They both disagree with you and command you to re-read the rest of the psion's power list. Sure, compared to an Ardent, psion is a bad tash choice, but you can make perfectly functional tash builds with psion too. Hell, Inertial Armor is the only method I'm aware of that can get an armor bonus higher than +5 full-plate pre-epic.

-------------

And Doh! on the enlightened/sacred mixup as well as the tier slip.

[Greenish]

And, to be honest, I prefer enlightened over sacred. Two monk levels and the prestige class don't offer a lot to clerics: they already have 3/4 BAB and a d8 hitdie, so this build just wastes spell levels for a minimal profit.Minimal profit of 10 levels of full casting (by text) and full BAB? It's not the best thing since arbitrary invention, but it's pretty nice.

-Shared Pain
-Vigor
-Force Screen
-Inertial Armor
-Metamorphosis

That's 5 powers, 3 of which are level 1, and only one of which is discipline specific. They both disagree with you and command you to re-read the rest of the psion's power list.None of those (bar the polymorph) are about fighting in melee. Nice defencive powers, okay, but I still don't see why you'd want to go tash with your psion or psion with your tash.

[Kaeso]

Minimal profit of 10 levels of full casting (by text) and full BAB? It's not the best thing since arbitrary invention, but it's pretty nice.

You still lose a caster level and aren't allowed to use weapons or armor... at all.
This means the already feat-starved cleric has to invest in boosting his unarmed damage, while still getting the regular cleric feats.

An enlightened fist actually gets some milage out of this multiclass, because he can now finally deliver those risky touch spells without proviking an AoO.

[Greenish]

You still lose a caster level and aren't allowed to use weapons or armor... at all.
This means the already feat-starved cleric has to invest in boosting his unarmed damage, while still getting the regular cleric feats.You don't have to lose a caster level (though in practise you'd probably want to dip monk), and you're allowed to use armour if you want, Sacred Fist's AC bonus even works on light armour.

Though why you'd want to use actual armour instead of Greater Luminous Armour + Magic Vestments + Wis to AC I don't know.

And well, clerics have their own size shenanigans, and there are some nifty relics for the job as well.


An enlightened fist actually gets some milage out of this multiclass, because he can now finally deliver those risky touch spells without proviking an AoO.Touch spells count as armed attacks and thus don't normally provoke AoO.

[Godskook]

You still lose a caster level and aren't allowed to use weapons or armor... at all.
This means the already feat-starved cleric has to invest in boosting his unarmed damage, while still getting the regular cleric feats.

Effectively he's a level 11 monk for unarmed damage. Add in a monk's belt, and that's 16. Throw on your choice of tattoo or relic, and you've got max monk damage for no more feat cost.

A necklace of natural attacks gives you 'weapons' on your unarmed strikes(and is competitive with normal weapon pricing), and as has been mentioned, a cleric is perfectly able to benefit from an armor bonus that rivals full plate without ever wearing armor.

And no feats were harmed in the making of these points.

[Greenish]

And no feats were harmed in the making of these points.Well, the entry needs Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes in addition to IUS and Stunning Fist the monk dip grants.

[Leon]

Surely that depends on your character concept? Though it's kinda annoying how none of the Druid goodies comes along on that ride; Animal Companion, Wildshape, all that stops scaling. Monks and Clerics can both be monastic badasses :smalltongue:

No, they are all superfluous to what the Core of a Druid is - a Full Spellcaster with a good nature theme list.
People get too hung up on being a animal or having a pet and forget that the druid is a great class without those bells and whistles.

[Hecuba]

Monk bard? How does that work? Both classes have alignment restriction for the alignment of the other class.

If you started out with a splash of paladin and bard, you could get devoted performer to deal with the alignment issue. There's still the freely multiclassed monk issue though.

[Urpriest]

No, they are all superfluous to what the Core of a Druid is - a Full Spellcaster with a good nature theme list.
People get too hung up on being a animal or having a pet and forget that the druid is a great class without those bells and whistles.

But...the Spirit Shaman has the same list, and it's spellcasting is more interesting...plus, many of the Druid's nice gish spells are staff-based, so you can't use them as a Sacred Fist.

[Greenish]

But...the Spirit Shaman has the same list, and it's spellcasting is more interesting...plus, many of the Druid's nice gish spells are staff-based, so you can't use them as a Sacred Fist.On the other hand, druid can get the wis to AC without monk dip, as well as rage, and if the DM allows trading ACFs to ACFs of other classes, Pounce and Whirling Frenzy.

[Edit]: Though I agree that Spirit Shaman's casting is more interesting. Unrelated, is there a way to get Know (the planes) as a class skill for Spirit Shaman without burning a feat?

[NNescio]

If you started out with a splash of paladin and bard, you could get devoted performer to deal with the alignment issue. There's still the freely multiclassed monk issue though.

Well, a Lawful Bard technically still retains all his class abilities -- he only can't take further levels in Bard.

[NichG]

For what its worth, the Monk-Bard character was raised as a monk as a child but eventually got kicked out of the order due to a gambling addiction. He's now a (pretty terrible) gambler and wanderer. So there's definitely an alignment shift in there.

I'm generally pretty lax about alignment though. It's not like the monk becomes terribly broken if it doesn't have alignment restrictions :smallbiggrin: