When is enough enough. Opinions wanted. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

DMfromTheAbyss

2011-05-22, 09:47 PM

:smallsigh:OK so I'm in a level 7-9, 3.5 game with some house rules.

It's a "low magic" level game for "balance" reasons, set in Birthright (old 2nd ed campaign setting) House rules are you fumble on a 1 and lose all further attacks per round. Magic weapons cap at +2 (but occasionally have extra effects (flaming/shocking) too) I have not yet noticed any limitation on casters. Full SRD spell lists for reference.

Party is a Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Rogue/shadowcaster.

I get told "we really need a melee character"

After making up a fighter/ranger/warblade (4/1/2) with a nice backstory we get started.

For gear I literally start with nothing, but the party was nice enough to give me cast offs (I think the GM was using my character for a money sink for the party.)

I started 1 level down from the group.. then at 8th. Most of party has hit
9th. After over 9 full sessions after I got brought in. I'm still almost exactly 1/2 way to 8th (so a total of 3500xp after over 9 sessions)

So the going is slow, I'm underpowered, undergeared, Melee is underpowered even compared to normal 3.5.

In game I find out that even masterwork weapons are out of my price range (600 gp for masterwork halberd plus side quest to qualify for reduced price, Masterwork bows don't exist with strength mods above a +1 without epic materials) All the NPC's are essentially black-hearted con artists who either literally want the party dead, or take credit for all we do.

The rest of the players/characters I'm pretty OK with aside from a lot of comments about how I suck compared to the last melee character they had,
(who incidentally had several single items of gear better than my net worth) but the Imbalance power wise is literally driving me nuts.

Do I have a legitimate beef here, or am I just overanalysing another DM's gaming style becouse I DM too much.

So I ask you playground. Would you stay in a game like this?

(more anecdotal info available upon request... trying not to sound whiney:smallsigh:)

Greenish

2011-05-22, 09:49 PM

If you're not having fun, something is wrong. Talk to your DM.

Glimbur

2011-05-22, 09:55 PM

I wouldn't stay. The questions you should ask are 1) Am I having fun? and 2) How much drama will leaving cause?

Dylaer

2011-05-22, 09:59 PM

+1 for leaving the game. I can't say I agree at all with a lot of the stuff your DM has in place (there are monsters with DR that can only be bypassed with +3 or higher weapons, for example) and it sounds like the "low magic" is used to nerf all classes, not just casters.

Greenish

2011-05-22, 10:03 PM

(there are monsters with DR that can only be bypassed with +3 or higher weapons, for example)Not in 3.5.

Anyhow, I hate fumble rules with the burning passion of a thousand suns, and that one is particularly [censored]. I can understand the thinking behind the ones that have "amusing" effects (even if I don't understand how it's supposed to be hilarious), but that one is just there to rain on your parade.

Popertop

2011-05-22, 10:04 PM

I wouldn't stay, sounds really frustrating and terrible.

I have to stomach enough double-standards in my own life, let alone in a gaming medium thats supposed to be my escape

Hirax

2011-05-22, 10:10 PM

Not in 3.5.

Anyhow, I hate fumble rules with the burning passion of a thousand suns, and that one is particularly [censored]. I can understand the thinking behind the ones that have "amusing" effects (even if I don't understand how it's supposed to be hilarious), but that one is just there to rain on your parade.

100% agreed. I begrudgingly play games with a group that enjoy them sometimes, and I always play with a character loaded with luck feats and goliath racial abilities to stymy this.

Starting out with no gear and getting castoffs instead of being able to choose some of your gear is pretty rough. Something is definitely wrong here based on the other things you describe too. If you're not having fun you need to start weighing the drama cost of saying something or leaving.

tyckspoon

2011-05-22, 10:14 PM

I'd be severely tempted to just off the next NPC that had something you wanted and run away with it ("hey, that seems like a nice sword. Mind if I take a practice swing or two, make sure it fits my hand? *Emerald Razor Power Attack!* "Oh, yes, I like that..") And I don't like playing evil. Which suggests to me that yes, something is wrong, particularly if the character you're replacing and the rest of the party do have some nicer things- that kind of comes off like you're actually being hazed a bit for being the new guy.

I dunno.. ideally, you want to get your bump to level-parity with the group and a chance at a rare cache of ancient lost magic (well.. that tends to be how magic items get distributed in 'low magic' plans, anyway), but failing that you could probably do some good by retraining your build. You want more Warblade- it's not item independent, but it's a good ways closer than 4 levels worth of Fighter.. another manuever known and readied from Warblade 4 would almost certainly be of more use to you than whatever feat you took at Fighter 4, and your skills would be somewhat less dire.

Vladislav

2011-05-22, 10:16 PM

The game design looks like a total fail on the DMs part. The rest of the party are casters who can make their own magic, and thus don't care about the "low magic" aspect of the game. A Cleric in a "low-magic" game, you see, has the same number of spells and Turn Undead attempts per day as he would in a "high-magic" game. He doesn't care if no magical weapons or armor are available, because he can make his own. He doesn't care if Belts of Strength are in short supply, because he has spells for it.

Who needs magic to be at least mildly competitive? Oh yeah, melee does.

As long as you weren't in the game, this fatal design flaw wasn't exposed and everyone were getting along merrily. Then came along you, and of course drew the short stick. Oh well, them are the breaks.

I suggest talking to the DM and explaining just how bad your situation is. If this doesn't work, leave.

Kylarra

2011-05-22, 10:18 PM

Unless your several other anecdotes are concealing an amazing story that your character is interested in, I'd highly suggest the talking to DM and failing that bringing results, leave/reroll a full caster route.

Remmirath

2011-05-22, 10:18 PM

It seems very strange that a low magic game would have no restrictions at all on casters, and that the party would consist mostly of full casters. Wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose of it? :smallconfused:

I'd probably try to talk to the DM about it first rather than leaving right off, assuming I liked the people and/or the rest of the game. If, after speaking about it, things were still going to be making me constantly annoyed, then I'd leave. The purpose of the game is to be having fun, after all.

Alternate suggestion: get your character killed/written off somehow (assuming this is the sort of game where people are okay with that), and play a cleric who puts most or all of their spells towards fighting. If spells aren't restricted, you might be a better fighter that way than playing a fighter who doesn't get decent magical gear, and you'd still fill their 'melee guy' requirement.

Veyr

2011-05-22, 10:19 PM

The houserules are killing that game. They're terrible and make no sense ("low magic" "full SRD spell lists" wut). I'd talk to the DM about those.

But... you'll very likely get nowhere with that. Sounds very likely that this is a DM with very particular (and inaccurate) ideas about how the game works, and is not likely to budge on them. The rest of the party doesn't seem terribly likely to come to your aid, either.

Kylarra

2011-05-22, 10:26 PM

They should just let you reroll as a Druid. Then you've got the meatshield who doesn't care about gear and you're a fullcaster so you can keep up with everyone else without gear as well.

GoatBoy

2011-05-22, 10:27 PM

+1 for talking to the DM first. It sounds like he's on a different plane of existence from you, but it sounds like there might still be something worth salvaging here.

Try to enlighten your DM on how crippling the game's house rules and nerfs are for the one primary melee character, and how much more melee characters rely on equipment.

If the DM refuses to budge, then simply inform him that your playing styles are incompatible and bid him goodbye.

Sounds like an inexperienced DM who thinks Fighters are on par with Wizards "because Fighters never run out of sword swings," and who doesn't grasp the concept of the tier system and the 15-minute adventuring day. But everyone needs to learn about these things somewhere.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-05-22, 10:28 PM

Reroll a new character. Go Human Druid, get Sacred Vow and VoP at level 1, Natural Bond at 3, and Natural Spell. Your Exalted bonus feats should be Nymph's Kiss, Animal Friend, Intuitive Attack, Exalted Companion, Touch of Golden Ice, etc. Your animal companion should be a Celestial Dire Eagle which also has VoP, and it should count Touch of Golden Ice among its bonus exalted feats. Wild shape into strong combat forms, cast Produce Flame before you full attack, and have plenty of crowd control spells ready.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-22, 10:35 PM

Talk with your DM. Those are brutal houserules that really detract from your fun. That said, do what Biffoniacus_Furiou said. Ask to reroll a new melee character, bring in a druid. If they go "But that's a spellcaster!" Then let them know you can out-melee the melees.

Stompy

2011-05-22, 11:16 PM

It's a "low magic" level game for "balance" reasons,

Party is a Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Rogue/shadowcaster.
wat

Magic weapons cap at +2 (but occasionally have extra effects (flaming/shocking) too)

Masterwork bows don't exist with strength mods above a +1 without epic materials
double wat

I get told "we really need a melee character"

For gear I literally start with nothing

Then how did you live to be a 7th level melee character backstory-wise? :smallconfused:

For the record, I find your DM to be contradicting himself(/herself), and having a underpowered underwealthed melee character in this system is really not fun, as you have made it clear, probably because you feel like you are doing absolutely nothing useful in the campaign. I would have to agree with the people that say to bring this up with the DM, and until this problem is fixed, I would not play this game.

EDIT: Who wanted you to play a melee character anyway? Your party seems ungrateful for you and your DM doesn't seem to know that he is hurting you severely in the crunch department.

Coidzor

2011-05-22, 11:56 PM

Well, I'd say they're not treating you like a friend or with any respect as a person, that's for sure.

theForce017

2011-05-23, 12:57 AM

The game is suppose to be fun so if you aren't having fun, try to change things. First would be talk to the DM like the other Forumers have said (Forumers haha, sry). If he is unwilling to do anything then I would attempt to find another group. If neither of these ideas sound good then, if possible, try to swap out some feats for Vow of Poverty and play that way. Just do whatever you want to do without feeling bad about it. Good luck! :thog:

CTrees

2011-05-23, 06:17 AM

Eldan

2011-05-23, 08:02 AM

+1 for talking. Really, talk to people. The DM might just be unaware of what he's doing. Explain to him how you think the party balance should be, and that you are frustrated. Don't threaten to leave (I.e. don't say "I want a +3 full plate or I'm going!) but explain that you aren't having much fun like this, and that you aren't feeling useless.

His immediate response should tell you if he is worth playing with. If he shows some understanding, and is willing to compromise, apologizes for making your life needlessly difficult or at least lets you make a new character that better fits the situation, stay. Otherwise, go.

Curmudgeon

2011-05-23, 09:06 AM

:smallsigh:OK so I'm in a level 7-9, 3.5 game with some house rules.

House rules are you fumble on a 1 and lose all further attacks per round. Magic weapons cap at +2 (but occasionally have extra effects (flaming/shocking) too) I have not yet noticed any limitation on casters.

I get told "we really need a melee character"
The rules are specifically stacked to penalize martial characters. Unless you enjoy abuse, it seems like a waste of your time to take on a role where you're not allowed to do well.

I suggest as a minimum compromise that you switch to a full spellcasting character that can take on a melee role, since spellcasters aren't lmited. A Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge Devotion, War domain, and spells (Divine Power, Mage Armor from Spell or Force domains, Magic Vestment) would at least get you started despite having poor equipment. Failing that, I don't see any reason to continue being the designated whipping boy in this game. :smallsigh:

Ruinix

2011-05-23, 11:42 AM

reroll and make a druid with natural spell and cast on bear form.
win win.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-23, 11:50 AM

Darth_Versity

2011-05-23, 11:55 AM

I have to agree with most people here and say have a private chat with your DM before the next game starts. Tell him your not having a lot of fun with your character as is an ask if he can throw you some equipment to make up the power gap or let you roll a new character.

Its much better than just getting up and walking away from the table and most people will understand try to help out. If you do get a new character I agree with the Druid suggestions. A druid will give you full casting and would out melee a fighter any day.

theForce017

2011-05-23, 12:09 PM

Wait, you said he made it like this for balance reasons. That makes me think that he thinks casters are underpowered. To show him the truth, make a 20th level fighter and a 20th level wizard, set 60 feet apart at the start of combat, and have them fight each other. Make sure there's some sort of terrain between them, as you won't often fight on a clear battlefield.

That is a good idea but depending on who designs each character could decide who wins. I feel as if I could build a fighter that could kill a wizard due to the fact I can optimize a fighter and not so much a wizard. Not only that but the biggest part of the encounter is who goes first.

Veyr

2011-05-23, 12:13 PM

That is a good idea but depending on who designs each character could decide who wins. I feel as if I could build a fighter that could kill a wizard due to the fact I can optimize a fighter and not so much a wizard. Not only that but the biggest part of the encounter is who goes first.
But the Wizard will go first. Nerveskitter, rerolls, SAD, Contingency, and Celerity all guarantee it. The Fighter doesn't even have the remotest hope of having the first action.

Darth_Versity

2011-05-23, 12:16 PM

But the Wizard will go first. Nerveskitter, rerolls, SAD, Contingency, and Celerity all guarantee it. The Fighter doesn't even have the remotest hope of having the first action.

If the mage is built well. But lets be honest, you give a new player all the books and the chance of him picking all those spells are slim at best.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 12:18 PM

If the mage is built well. But lets be honest, you give a new player all the books and the chance of him picking all those spells are slim at best.

But that's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about people who've been playing for a while and still think this or are trolling the guy and acting like they do.

Veyr

2011-05-23, 12:20 PM

If the mage is built well. But lets be honest, you give a new player all the books and the chance of him picking all those spells are slim at best.
But he needs one of those, maybe two if he's going with SAD+rerolls. And really, I don't think it takes a genius to look at Contingency and realize that it is an excellent get-out-of-jail-free card.

theForce017

2011-05-23, 12:26 PM

Sry to hijack the thread but if your DM is being unreasonable, set up an arena with the same style as the campaign:
- Low-Magic (except for class...lame)
- Build to a set level (10, 15, or 20)
- You build a fighter and wizard
- He builds a fighter and wizard

Then dual with opposing builds (Your wizard versus his fighter) then switch
See if this proves anything and if he still disagrees...uh good luck.

Unreasonable?

FMArthur

2011-05-23, 12:39 PM

-1 for "talk to the DM"

These houserules and the attitudes of your fellow players are just indicators of the kinds of problems you're likely to experience as a player with them, and while addressing them specifically might get them to change those particular rules (don't even count on a 50% chance of success here), more stuff will come up as a result of DM stupidity, the massively wrong misconceptions these rules imply and the unencouraging teammates that go along with it.

Just don't game with this group, it's more trouble than it's worth.

Veyr

2011-05-23, 12:51 PM

Doug Lampert

2011-05-23, 01:09 PM

I'm with FMArthur, there. I'd talk just to show I'd given it a chance, but I wouldn't expect much out of it and I'd honestly be more worried if they did give in on those specific points than if they'd been intractable; the latter gives me leave to quit the game with a clear conscience, but the former would mean giving it a chance despite the fact that it's almost certainly not going to have any good coming from it.

If you want to quit, which I would with those rules, then quit. Don't ask for changes if you'll be happier without the changes because then you can quit. Just quit and be happy.

You don't need to justify why you aren't playing a game.

I'm with FMArthur, it's not worth talking about unless that's the only game in town or you particularly like these people. Hence I'm not asking for a fix. If I'm with that group and I'm told those are the houserules I'd have complained prior to session 1 or 2 (or maybe played a druid, but I don't particularly like playing druids), he's played 9 sessions. It's already too much pain.

To quote my statement as to why I hadn't seen some episodes of a TV series: "Partway through the second episode I realized that I'd rather slam my head into a wall at full force repeatedly till I fell unconcious, because at least then the pain would end; but there's a better way to end the pain, I quit watching, so I have no idea about how much season two or three or four or seven may have improved and I don't plan to find out."

Same thing for an RPG. Why put up with suck? Get a book, rewatch Casablanca or A New Hope or the Matrix movie (there was only one, do not watch any alleged sequels).

That game is not intended to be fun for melee, and they told you to play melee. Then they start you down a level with no gear. Then they appear to have nerfed your XP and treasure awards (down a level you should be gaining noticably more XP, down two you should get almost twice as much XP). Why talk when you can just walk?

DougL

Veyr

2011-05-23, 01:13 PM

You're probably right. I just feel like I ought to give them a chance, ya know? But realistically, the odds of them turning around and giving me what I want, even given the chance to, are so slim... yeah, probably both more mature and more sensible to say, "ya know what, I don't think this is going to work out."

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 01:14 PM

Well, there's always revenge, but generally the talking would only be a ruse to lure them into place for the bucket of pudding.

CTrees

2011-05-23, 02:38 PM

Well, there's always revenge, but generally the talking would only be a ruse to lure them into place for the bucket of pudding.

Heh, revenge. I was about to jokingly suggest waiting until you rest, taking your turn on watch, and doing one coup de gras per round, but then I had to wonder-can you cleave/great cleave at the end of a coup de gras? With power attack and hiding their gear you might even be able wipe out three is one full round action! (assuming certain feats)

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 02:48 PM

I was thinking on the trolls themselves, really. Depending upon the relationship that existed prior to the trolling.

Rejakor

2011-05-23, 02:54 PM

First of all, to all the people saying he should leave the game without even letting it be known he has a grievance, shame the on you.

If the people don't know he's not having fun, how the hell do you expect them to fix it?

Secondly, the 'on a 1 your full attack ends' rule is a common houserule that came from ADND or 2ED or somewhere originally where full attacks were really good, more powerful than pretty much anything else. This isn't the DM 'hosing melee characters' or whatever. That houserule is common as muck prettymuch everywhere.

I also don't think the DM was specifically trying to hose melee characters with the low magic setting. PCs are special, so it makes sense that even though wizards are rare, a PC could play one. Not the DMs fault in that regard, that everyone went with spellcasters, although it could hint at a higher level of optimization than your average player.

My suggestion? Ask if you can make your character the same level as everyone else. Show them JaronK's tier system, or other proof that the rest of the party is playing stronger classes than you, and it's not fair that you're lower level, too. Add that the 3.5 DMG states that while bringing in new characters at a lower level was previously the practice on older editions of DnD, 3.5 was designed with the expectation that all the characters would be the same level.

If they say 'sure', mention that you're going to be switching your feats around a bit. And then build either a lockdown (locke down) or ubercharger fighter. Fighter 2/Warblade X, actually. Aim to be doing 200ish damage per round, or locking down 40'+ with your reach. Play up your character as much as possible, and take the spotlight where necessary/you can. Sit down with the casters and work out what buffs they can whack on you (and the rogue, who you are going to make your flanking buddy) and make a big deal out of them turning the both of you into Adamantine Supermen pre-fight. They'll get into it. Casters usually can't resist going 'AHAHAHAHA YES SEE MY CREATION AND FEAR IT' when you give them a good enough opportunity. If the wizard doesn't have the right spells, buy scrolls to put into his spellbook. If the DM says 'hur low magic hur', turn it into a quest. Literally, screw suzie and her lost doggie or whatever, your team is going scroll-hunting. If the game is on rails and this exposes it, well, rails that can't think on their feet is reason enough to leave in the first place.

If they go 'no', go 'alright, well, i'll need to change my classes around a bit because you guys are stronger than I thought and we're leveling so slowly'. And then build the roughest, corest, non-cheesest, brutalest, terrifyingest, CoDzilla or Gish that you can get your hands with every allowed sourcebook and a week on BG's MinMax forum. And then proceed to clean house, tear your DM's world a new one, and set everything, absolutely everything, on fire.

Hirax

2011-05-23, 04:11 PM

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 04:26 PM

Secondly, the 'on a 1 your full attack ends' rule is a common houserule that came from ADND or 2ED or somewhere originally where full attacks were really good, more powerful than pretty much anything else. This isn't the DM 'hosing melee characters' or whatever. That houserule is common as muck prettymuch everywhere.

First time I've ever heard of it. It's being reacted to as if it isn't common as muck everywhere. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there's a good chance you're just out and out wrong on that count.

As to the rest, your explanation does nothing to negate the point of it "hosing melee characters," that you claim it does, so... Nope, it still is hosing melee characters with an unfair nerf since 3.X is not AD&D and acting like it is brings up the question of why one isn't just playing AD&D like one wants. :smalltongue:

I also don't think the DM was specifically trying to hose melee characters with the low magic setting. Regardless of what his intent was, he did, and his archetype and what we've seen of his reasoning so far would indicate that he doesn't see what he's done as having any real negatives.
Not the DMs fault in that regard It is as the DM made it so that melee was unplayable so one had to be a fullcaster.

DMfromTheAbyss

2011-05-23, 07:02 PM

Wow, thanks for all the help with the decision guys. Sincerely I feel better just discussing it.

For reference I have spoken to him, several times about the balance issues and general Melee can't have nice things meme. In fact I got him to allow the (TOB)Warblade levels in his game.. though he put his own limitation on them.. Basically you can use your readied abilities 1x per encounter.. no recovery mechanic allowed. So warblade is still nice.. but not nearly as good as in the package.

Several points.

I think you guys may have pretty much nailed my GM's archtype. He has made several comments to the point that "hitting is awefully easy with all that BAB" and such. (With a moderately well built genericaly useful trip build.. halberd/spiked gauntlet style (yeah I don't care for spiked chains thematically, and there wasn't many other options in his game.. no psionics, no custom gear obviously etc etc..) I've been hitting a little over 50% ... so not keeping up with the barrages of magic missiles/fireballs even when I can get something near me.

Which brings up the next point, the casters really don't buff me.. or each other, or themeselves very often. I'd say they're all pretty much acting as blaster style mages. I have several times extolled the virtue of buff spells. So at least the party seems low op enough for me to be noticed occasionally, though even then the scorching rays outdo my damage potential fairly handily.:smallsigh: So it could be worse I suppose..

Then there's me as a player. I've got a weird schedule and am running several of my own RPG's (1 4rth ed game, one D&D homebrew, plus Starwars D20, and a few forum games right here) So I'm almost always the GM. This lead me to question weither the houserules were as bad as I thought, or I was just having backseat GM control issues. I rarely get to play, so having a game, despite some rather obvious and frustrating flaws is really nice, if I could just quiet the little gamer in my head that keeps head/desking itself everytime a houserule pops up I'd be happier. Sadly after trying several games this is the "best" I've found locally.. I usually end up going if I want a good game I should just run one.

So my problems are..
1)Rules heavily favor casters (It is 3.5 I knew it coming in)
2)The Houserules make this even worse.
3)Party is frustrating, (lack of teamwork/buffs making myself and others underperform)
4) 3500 xp over 9 sessions.. while underleveled seems stagnantly slow to me.
5) The NPC's make me want to stab them (if "friendly". The villians make me consider alignment harmful torture (see other threads) acceptable)

There are however some pros to the game.
1) I'm not the DM, getting to hang out, make wry comments and not worry about running the game is a rare treat for me.
2) The DM may be stubborn and have anti melee issues, but he seems to be a decent storyteller and sticks to his guns at least (instead of handing me the game which happens more than I'd like)
3) The people playing are getting to the point where I'd consider them more friends than fellow players, and this is the only venue for me to hang out with them.
4)The Birthright setting has lots of potential, I've always wanted to be in a campaign of it.
5) Sometimes playing with a bad DM makes you a better DM?
---------------------------------------
So since it's a near tie. (I'm real iffy on that last pro..) Anyone have any opinion on the pacing issue. Does 3500 xp over x9, 6 hour or so sessions seems rather slow to me.. but I prefer my adventure high and my fights challenging.

Also for reference we've been through a full dungeon, Ghost(almost died.. got aged to like 70 before going back to town for restores) and a Low level Deathknight. Fought an entire caravan of slavers (including a level 9 wizard and 4 juju zombies) and I've actually gotten props for good roleplaying (made the entire group burst out laughing too)

For which incidentally I recieved a whopping 25 xp bonus. :smallmad:

So again.. are some games just like this or is my personal bias over-inflating the problem.

Rejakor

2011-05-23, 07:41 PM

@ Coidzor and Hirax; Yep. I've played and talked with a lot of people who were playing DnD a long time before I was, mostly at con style events, and that houserule has come up a lot of times. Maybe a coincidence, but I doubt it.

Everyone in this thread is going 'DM IS A BAD PERSON LEAVE HIS GAME IMMEDIATELY'. And yet, his two main 'mistakes' other than the AGAIN oldschool meme of 'starting new characters lower' are mistakes any DM, even a decent DM, could make. Low magic campaign sounds like a great idea, in theory. Full attack ends on a 1 is probably a house fumble rule he's had since like ADND. It's just that in combination, melee gets hosed a little more, and melee can't stand a hosing at all in 3.5. Quitting in a huff because the DM made a mistake is not the mature or the reasonable thing to do, especially when it doesn't look deliberate.

@DMfromtheAbyss;

Again, I really can't stress enough, literally sit down with the wizard, during or before the game, and go through his spell list. Do the same with the cleric. Find out what spells he prepares/has. Then either go 'hey, you should prepare Enlarge Person and Haste and Mass Mirror Image and this and that! That would be really useful because blah blah blah!' If the wizard has objections, you handle them in a positive 'it will make you more awesome' style of manner, and then move on to the cleric. This will hopefully start some groundswell of excitement towards the idea of 'buffing rounds', even if there's inbuilt 'ugh, that's so crap'.

Really? Scorching Ray is outdamaging lockdown AoE and Greater Insightful Strike? Are they actually competently metamagicking it? If so, and their and the DMs focus is on damage not tactics, maybe consider retraining into ubercharger?

Or like I said earlier, ask for same level or rebuild into gish monstrosity.

All games are different. Any game where there is a power imbalance in terms of mechanical capability where mechanics is important, is bad. Any game where people don't understand the rules and have prejudices and preconceptions about it that lead to said power imbalance.. is bad.

Doesn't mean you can't fix it with social engineering, though. Social engineering > all.

You're enjoying the game, and that's actually the harder thing to fix. The preconception 'not getting how the mechanics work' problem can be fixed via either social engineering or minmaxing, and then that would remove a large part of your problems. I basically outlined the two methods in my last post.

EDIT: Oh, and if all else fails with the wizard/other casters, i.e. 'stop trying to tell me what spells to pick omg' whining or whatever, turn it into a personal request. 'I would really like you to have those spells to cast on me and the rogue'. Very few people can resist a personal request, and when they do it's actually pretty bad for their rep in the group... once they notice that others don't think they were in the right, a good % that refuse turn around and agree.

Doc Roc

2011-05-23, 08:02 PM

But he needs one of those, maybe two if he's going with SAD+rerolls. And really, I don't think it takes a genius to look at Contingency and realize that it is an excellent get-out-of-jail-free card.

I've loved contingency since I ran into it in an old CRPG. It's phenomenal. I still refuse to ban a whole school because of it, playing specialist diviners (ban enchant) instead.

@DMoA:
Just to reconfirm. Things are exactly as screwed as you think. Your party is incompetent, and your GM has no grasp of how the game works. You should roll a druid post-haste.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-23, 08:05 PM

@DMoA:
Just to reconfirm. Things are exactly as screwed as you think. Your party is incompetent, and your GM has no grasp of how the game works. You should roll a druid post-haste.

Agreeing with this.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 08:08 PM

Everyone in this thread is going 'DM IS A BAD PERSON LEAVE HIS GAME IMMEDIATELY'.

Well, I mean, there's always room for jell-O, isn't there? Perhaps I've been a little harsh, but it really does sound like he's being trolled.

Low magic campaign sounds like a great idea, in theory.

Why do people always say and think that? :smallconfused: It doesn't seem to fit with the system of 3.5 at all & just leads to headaches when people try to work out a solution every time I've seen it other than E6ing it which has its own issues.

Worira

2011-05-23, 08:10 PM

Bite the DM as hard as you can. This may not solve any of your problems, but it will be highly satisfying.

Doc Roc

2011-05-23, 08:14 PM

Why do people always say and think that? :smallconfused: It doesn't seem to fit with the system of 3.5 at all & just leads to headaches when people try to work out a solution every time I've seen it other than E6ing it which has its own issues.

They say it because they love this idea, dearly, and love this game, dearly, and they think that if they bang the two together hard enough, rainbows will come out.

Rejakor

2011-05-23, 08:14 PM

Why do people always say and think that? :smallconfused: It doesn't seem to fit with the system of 3.5 at all & just leads to headaches when people try to work out a solution every time I've seen it other than E6ing it which has its own issues.

Well not to you, and not to me, but to this guy it did.

'Hey, magic is overpowered in 3.5, so i'll run a LOW MAGIC GAME, voila, PROBLEM SOLVED.' But then he was like 'players should be able to play the class they want to play' and had a durr and then the game was 'casters and the meatshield who can't buy gear anymore'.

He's not intentionally nerfing melee. He just had a durr, that is obvious to you, because you understand why it is a durr, but at the time (possibly now he has a better idea), he didn't understand that it was a durr. People make mistakes. Assuming they are horrible people or hopeless on the basis of one or two mistakes is generally, a mistake.

Doc Roc

2011-05-23, 08:17 PM

Well not to you, and not to me, but to this guy it did.

'Hey, magic is overpowered in 3.5, so i'll run a LOW MAGIC GAME, voila, PROBLEM SOLVED.' But then he was like 'players should be able to play the class they want to play' and had a durr and then the game was 'casters and the meatshield who can't buy gear anymore'.

He's not intentionally nerfing melee. He just had a durr, that is obvious to you, because you understand why it is a durr, but at the time (possibly now he has a better idea), he didn't understand that it was a durr. People make mistakes. Assuming they are horrible people or hopeless on the basis of one or two mistakes is generally, a mistake.

The only problem is that low magic with full power casting isn't.... very low magic at all. In fact, it's pretty much just super perplexing. I'm sure this dood is super froody, but it's just... this is like getting a orange smoothie instead of the orange sofa you expected. The orange sofa might be hideous, but it's better for sitting in than an orange smoothie.

Talakeal

2011-05-23, 08:18 PM

I don't think I have ever played with a rule of roll a one and lose all further attacks. I don't even think it was an optional rule in second edition when I first learned the game, let alone third. I also can't for the life of me figure out what such a rule adds to the game as it isn't fun, realistic, or needed as a balancing mechanism.

Rejakor

2011-05-23, 08:27 PM

Again - you know that, I know that. This guy didn't know that. It is a mistake that you can easily make if you don't understand the math behind the rules and have the 'herp derp core is balaaaanced' mindset that so many many gamers have been brainwashed with.

That houserule is a stupid houserule. Any houserule that hoses melee and doesn't affect casters is a stupid houserule. But again, saying that this guy is a bad DM to the point that you should do something stupidly retributive and then quit in a huff is not something i'm seeing exactly from one mistake and one dumb houserule (that has been around for ages, so i'm guessing he started using it back in the day and never stopped).

Basically, the OP has said that he does like the story and is having fun in the game, the problem is that he's the fighter in a fighter-unfriendly campaign and everyone else is t1 full casters, albeit apparently blaster fullcasters. So, if that part gets fixed, likely his problems will be much less or disappear. That's what i'm saying.

Literally everyone else is advocating revenge, quitting, or both... on some pretty flimsy evidence for that course of action, that I can see.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 08:27 PM

Bite the DM as hard as you can. This may not solve any of your problems, but it will be highly satisfying.

Ahahaha... oh man. Sigged.

Hirax

2011-05-23, 08:27 PM

Before this thread I would have actually agreed with Rejakor in saying it's a common rule, it's surprising to me to see people that haven't heard of it. Though it's a terrible rule all the same, along with most other 'fumble on nat 1' rules.

Doc Roc

2011-05-23, 08:29 PM

erikun

2011-05-23, 08:36 PM

Anyone have any opinion on the pacing issue. Does 3500 xp over x9, 6 hour or so sessions seems rather slow to me.. but I prefer my adventure high and my fights challenging.

So again.. are some games just like this or is my personal bias over-inflating the problem.
Yes, some games are low XP. Given that you run rather long gaming sessions, I'm not surprised that the DM has toned down the experience rewards. Not everyone wants to run a game where the PCs have a new level each time they sit down at the table.

That's not a problem. The rest of it does seem to be. Your DM doesn't seem interested in changing things, but if you are enjoying the group, I'd recommend sticking with them. Perhaps you can start writing up a melee Cleric or Druid, either to exchange for your current character in-game (because the other players complain about how weak he is, after all) or for when he inevitably dies.

Marnath

2011-05-23, 09:52 PM

Tibbaerrohwen

2011-05-23, 10:44 PM

Yes, some games are low XP. Given that you run rather long gaming sessions, I'm not surprised that the DM has toned down the experience rewards. Not everyone wants to run a game where the PCs have a new level each time they sit down at the table.

That's not a problem. The rest of it does seem to be. Your DM doesn't seem interested in changing things, but if you are enjoying the group, I'd recommend sticking with them. Perhaps you can start writing up a melee Cleric or Druid, either to exchange for your current character in-game (because the other players complain about how weak he is, after all) or for when he inevitably dies.

Except, the other PC's did level up.

Agreed. You may need to consider a class change so you can gain the full benefits of the game. That being said, there is something screwy with the leveling and exp; as a lower level character you shouldn't be having this difficulty with catching up, especially with other players gaining levels.
If the DM really wants to make it equal fun for everyone, he should balance out the levels and bring you up to par.

Tvtyrant

2011-05-23, 10:55 PM

Yeah man, I'd get out while you still enjoy d&d.

I'm sure we can all think of a time where we've set out our dice (all of which were facing up with the numerically highest side), grabbed the character sheet from our folder, our figurine from our bags...and had a cruddy DM begin his game with a "You all start with nothing and are in a dungeon" train-tracked storyline...

As much as it sucks to say, some people aren't meant to DM because they lack the ability to make judgment calls. These people include:

The drug-addled
Furries
People who buy Backyard Poultry magazine
People who post on Rants and Raves (craigslist)
People who buy hummers
Professional laser tag players

And this list goes on.

So basically, to sum up, get out while your spirit is intact.
Your list of hate is slightly...Hatefilled. Its just not very nice :smallwink:

myancey

2011-05-23, 11:00 PM

Your list of hate is slightly...Hatefilled. Its just not very nice :smallwink:

Yeah, true that. Deleted...I'm too new to earn the ire of the moderators. I just got to be a dwarf. :smallbiggrin:

Mr. Zolrane

2011-05-23, 11:33 PM

First would be talk to the DM like the other Forumers have said (Forumers haha, sry).

I prefer the term "forumites," or, more specific to this forum "Playgrounders" or "Insert Complaint Get Free Advice Solicitation Machines." :smalltongue:

Secondly, the 'on a 1 your full attack ends' rule is a common houserule that came from ADND or 2ED or somewhere originally where full attacks were really good, more powerful than pretty much anything else. This isn't the DM 'hosing melee characters' or whatever. That houserule is common as muck pretty much everywhere.

I've found this to be true...

Common =/= good

But this is also a valid point.

Bite the DM as hard as you can. This may not solve any of your problems, but it will be highly satisfying.

And tasty. Any DM worth his salt comes pre-marinated in an earthy glaze of Moutain Dew and Cheeto dust.

[On the topic of "low-magic" settings] It doesn't seem to fit with the system of 3.5 at all & just leads to headaches when people try to work out a solution every time I've seen it other than E6ing it which has its own issues.

They say it because they love this idea, dearly, and love this game, dearly, and they think that if they bang the two together hard enough, rainbows will come out.

Doc, Coidzor, I would like very much to sig this exchange. Permission?

The only problem is that low magic with full power casting isn't.... very low magic at all. In fact, it's pretty much just super perplexing. I'm sure this dood is super froody, but it's just... this is like getting a orange smoothie instead of the orange sofa you expected. The orange sofa might be hideous, but it's better for sitting in than an orange smoothie.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Just without the witty upholstery analogy. It seems less like "low-magic" and more like "low-stuff that melee can benefit from and normal quantities of everything else."

Tvtyrant

2011-05-23, 11:34 PM

I prefer the term "forumites," or, more specific to this forum "Playgrounders" or "Insert Complaint Get Free Advice Solicitation Machines." :smalltongue:

May I sig this?

Veyr

2011-05-23, 11:38 PM

Wow, this thread is like a sig gold mine.

And tasty. Any DM worth his salt comes pre-marinated in an earthy glaze of Moutain Dew and Cheeto dust.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure the DM in question meets the given criterion.

Doc, Coidzor, I would like very much to sig this exchange. Permission?
You need to add the part where Coidzor asks "Why..." so that DocRoc's answer to that question makes sense.

Mr. Zolrane

2011-05-23, 11:41 PM

May I sig this?

Absolutely. I'd be honored.

Wow, this thread is like a sig gold mine.

Indeed.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure the DM in question meets the given criterion.

Sadly, you may be correct.

You need to add the part where Coidzor asks "Why..." so that DocRoc's answer to that question makes sense.

True, good point.

Doc Roc

2011-05-23, 11:52 PM

You, of course, have my permission.

Seatbelt

2011-05-23, 11:52 PM

Sometimes it can be hard to break conceptions of how the game works. I played in a 1-shot with our long-time DM, who we love playing with and haven't gamed with in a year. He generated characters. He thinks monks are a fine class and the PF monk is a real solid fix. I got pwned in every combat, often-times before the other characters, and later the DM told me I was just playing him wrong.

In a previous build I rolled up a pretty strong Cleric/Ordained Champion glass cannon, who was only really good at melee, and using smites and stuff I could pretty reliably kill whatever it was I wanted provided I could get in to melee range. The DM hit him pretty seriously with the nerfbat and after he got killed he banned the feats and the PrC I was using. Meanwhile the Sorcerer has been consistently doing over a hundred damage with spellwarp sniper and split ray since level 8???

We've been playing with him for years and years and he still doesn't get that monsters are designed assuming a certain WBL and consistently under-equips us. I'm the only one who reads GitP in our group so my optimization skills are better than my group, but they've become pretty good at character building just to keep up with the GM's encounters.

He's a great GM and I love playing with him. But some people just have kooky ideas on what makes a game fair and balanced and when you tell them otherwise... you're just powergaming.

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 01:24 AM

He's a great GM and I love playing with him. But some people just have kooky ideas on what makes a game fair and balanced and when you tell them otherwise... you're just powergaming.

Well, yes there are ways to deal with people being rude and obnoxious outside of the purview of playing the game for a reason, after all.

Though I always have to doubt the DMing capabilities of someone who is incapable of personal respect.

Doc, Coidzor, I would like very much to sig this exchange. Permission?

You, of course, have my permission.

Go for it.

Badgerish

2011-05-24, 08:02 AM

One time, someone asked me for advice on D&D 3.5, I responded "play a cleric" before he even asked his question.

Why? Because apart from 'casting lots of arcane spells' or 'doing lots of sneak attack damage', clerics can be good/great at any play-style. If I wanted to play a 'melee character' I would be strongly considering a cleric, even before these houserules or exceptionally low wealth.

In this situation, my advice is 20%: explain to the GM then quit the group (this is after the comments about how you are friends with them), and 80% to play a cleric.

Being a Cleric focused on fighting can solve most of your problems:
Better endurance due to healing/buffing spells.
Better equipment due to Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment.
Better buffs due to casting them yourself (also cast them on the party, where fitting, so they can see the advantages first hand).
More options in addition to 'full attack', due to other spells like summoning, hold person etc.

One thing you might want to talk to the GM about is the difference between a 'long magic' and a 'low magic item' campaign.
'low magic item' means what it say, less wealth/magic items. Generally these result in everyone playing casters.
'low magic' means less wealth/magic items, less/lower-powered casters and less/lower-powered magical enemies.

MrRigger

2011-05-24, 10:18 AM

It sounds to me like you enjoy yourself enough to keep playing, but not enough to keep playing the class/build you have right now. I can't blame you. A melee character with no magic weapons and no buffs of any kind from the multiple spellcasters in the group? That's pretty rough, and I doubt I'd enjoy it any more than you. The rule concerning natural 1's ending a full attack, well, I haven't seen it before, and doubt I would use it in my game, but if that's what the DM uses, I wouldn't worry about it too much. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge deal, unless it is really hurting your fun, which it doesn't sound like. I'm another voice suggesting you talk to your DM about how things are going and your feelings on things, specifically that you feel significantly underpowered compared to the rest of the party (no recovery mechanic on a Warblade sucks, you probably would have been better off with a Swordsage in this case), and would like to re-roll a different character. If he allows it, I would go with a Cleric or a Druid. You can still be a nasty beatstick if that's what the party needs, and you have other options as well, as a Tier 1 pretty much always has options. But if you are allowed to re-roll as a cleric or druid, I think the important thing to do is not break the game with an optimized Tier 1 build. You don't need to be a Persist monster or Planar Shepard, Clerics and Druids are awesome enough anyway that you can have fun without destroying the curve (though you may still need to use a few tricks if you are underleveled compared to the rest of the party).

MrRigger

Whammydill

2011-05-24, 11:39 AM

If this is a Birthright game, how true is it to the Birthright rules? Are any of the characters scions/regents? Do you/they have blood abilities? Wizards in Birthright, IIRC, have to be blooded or elven to begin with. Otherwise, the most magic one can muster is lesser magic a la bard or magician. IIRC Sorcerers don't even exist in Birthright.

Low magic doesn't fit Birthright. This game has realm spells for crying-out-loud. You have to establish ley-lines from (much contested)sources of magical power to fuel these immensely powerful spells. Spells that take months to cast and can alter the very dynamics of the world, raise entire undead units, or simply turn a crap ton of scrap to gold. Divine realm spells require the pooling of faith over a long term of time to channel them into multi-province/army affecting spells.

The premise of the game is largely political intrigue and diplomacy/subterfuge between various political entities from guild leaders to power hungry dynasties vying for the throne.

If you aren't getting these things in your Birthright campaign....you aren't getting a Birthright campaign.

Veyr

2011-05-24, 12:04 PM

Wow, that does sound awesome. I'd be interested in a game like that.

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 12:08 PM

I am genuinely surprised to hear of a "low magic" game that doesn't nerf casting. Every attempt at it that I've made or seen, you hit some of the top spells first, then you step on the magical gear.

My biggest issue here is that they ASKED you to play a melee. If I was running this game, for whatever reason, and all my characters pretty obviously were picking casters, I would at least be open about casters being too good in the setting, and encourage everyone to play them, or ban them. Seriously, if 3/4 of your group can already cast spells? That's nuts.

I'm actually surprised this guy allowed you to run a level of Warblade, tbh.

Essentially, he's running a lot of 2ed things, but without the 2ed things that would hurt casters, and without a campaign specific reason for magic to be rare (and masterwork to be double the cost).

I don't know what to suggest. You MIGHT be missing something. He MIGHT have houserules to address some of the egregious casting issues. Critical fumbles on a 1 means, definitely, for sure, stay away from dual wield, and see if he rolls HIS to-hit die in the open. Those rules normally over the long term screw the PCs, but if the DM can't let his precious bad guy stab himself in the foot with his greataxe, then your hero sure shouldn't be doing that either.

Overall, it sounds like you aren't appreciated, and were brought in to be the weakling everyone compares themselves favorably to.

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 12:18 PM

For reference I have spoken to him, several times about the balance issues and general Melee can't have nice things meme. In fact I got him to allow the (TOB)Warblade levels in his game.. though he put his own limitation on them.. Basically you can use your readied abilities 1x per encounter.. no recovery mechanic allowed. So warblade is still nice.. but not nearly as good as in the package.

I had not seen this.

Now, I'll say right now I don't allow 9swords, and I doubt I ever will. But I also put forth some pretty serious thought on ensuring that non-casters kick butt, and many of those buffs are more systemic- a warblade in my game somehow, would be stronger than intended, and certainly stronger than I'm prepared to deal with.

But no recovery mechanic is rather petty. Your abilities are certainly spell-like, sure. But the clear intention is that you never run out of them. I don't know how to nerf the warblade to an arbitrary power level (or I would have done that, I'm pretty sure), but this is not where I would start.

I will also point out that this limit becomes less important later- in other words, once you are high level, you won't miss not being able to recover much at all, because you'll have so many. But since you started with (imo) a relatively large number of non-manifester classes, I think you'll be forever playing catch-up, especially if you ever want to "refresh" your rogue skills by taking a level of rogue.

I dunno. It sounds like your DM is trying to help, but is limited by his own odd set of rules.

Mauther

2011-05-24, 12:22 PM

Since it sounds like you enjoy playing the game, but not the way your experiencing it now, I'd be another who says to start another character. There are enough melee/caster builds out there to let you still meet melee party needs and not be left holding the bag for magic item issues.

As a fellow DM who has to take what games you can to actually play in, I wouldn't walk away from a group that I like, just because I'm not getting my rocks off. The DM sounds like he's got some screwy ideas, but the fact that he worked with you on the warblade means that he's not out to screw you over. Just let him know your not having fun with your current build and you'd like to try something else. He'll probably be fine with it.

Whammydill

2011-05-24, 12:26 PM

Wow, that does sound awesome. I'd be interested in a game like that.

Birthright is a very awesome campaign setting. So much characterization and history to weave into grand plots and campaign ideas. It's just hard for most DM's to pull off successfully. Unless you handwave a lot of things, there are a lot of things to keep track of....a lot. Unless you use your own entities (have fun making that many up,) you have to learn the who/what/why..etc of many different factions relating to your players and how they would react, if at all, to what the players are doing. All the while keeping track of their resources: regency/gold bars...etc. Unless of course you hand wave that too, but I've seen DM's just get carried away.

There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff to keep track of in Birthright, but when it is pulled off, it makes for games that are talked about for years.

Vortling

2011-05-24, 12:50 PM

Based off everything the OP has told us so far I'll join the chorus of "Ask for a reroll". Possibly into a druid or cleric, since given his reaction to the warblade it looks like the DM is going to put restrictions on any melee non-caster you choose.

Also ask about the xp. There's no reason you should be falling further behind everyone else unless he's got houserules on that too that he isn't telling you about.

Forged Fury

2011-05-24, 12:55 PM

Low Magic

Got aged to like 70 before going back to town for restores...
Head 'asploded.

Whammydill

2011-05-24, 01:00 PM

Head 'asploded.

**Tries to cast Raise-dead***

...oh wait low magic.

Velaryon

2011-05-24, 01:10 PM

+1 for asking to reroll as a melee-focused cleric or druid. Even if you're still a level or two behind the other players (which is totally unfair IMO), you'll still be better off than any non-caster class since you're being totally hosed by the house rules.

With regard to the debate on fumbles, my group has always used a modified version of that house rule - you miss on a 1, and then you roll to confirm (just like you would with a crit). If the second roll hits, you just miss and you're fine. If the second roll also misses, then you fumble and lose the rest of your attacks. I picked this up from the DM who taught me the game, and for years I thought it was an actual rule. I use a lot of humanoid enemies, so my enemies suffer from the rule at least as much as the PCs. It doesn't work out too badly.

Thespianus

2011-05-24, 01:42 PM

+1 for asking to reroll as a melee-focused cleric or druid.
Yes, a thousand times this, even though I realize that it might blow to bring that idea to the table.

The DM isn't running a "Low Magic"-campaign, he's running a "Low-Melee"-campaign. Be a Druid, and be all that you wanted to be as a Melee character. With extra sauce of Awesome.

ericgrau

2011-05-24, 01:47 PM

Agreed. There are 3 full casters in the party in a "low magic campaign". So... in other words what the DM really means is everybody else doesn't get any toys. They got nerfed hard while full casters got a minor inconvenience. So play a full caster. If the party is taking too much damage then play a battlefield control caster to gimp (area debuff) and delay (barriers) your foes to minimize incoming damage. Also look into false life and Otiluke's resilient sphere targeting both friend and foe.

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 01:51 PM

Just for the record, I think coming in a level behind is fair. Two levels is not fair. And note that you get more XP for being a lower level, so it balances out before endgame.

Ein0r

2011-05-24, 02:03 PM

FMArthur

2011-05-24, 02:12 PM

Actually that Warblade thing isn't too horrible. If the goal is to balance it against other melees (because they are absolutely better than other melees, even if they are quite balanced overall) it probably works pretty well and without making its tricks particularly difficult or less powerful. That Warblade is far from castrated and is way better than the knee-jerk ban ToB often gets.

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 03:23 PM

While I don't think banning 9swords is in any way "knee-jerk", the DM probably assumes the nerf is more significant that it actually is in the long run. But he probably thinks his low magic scenario shouldn't inconvenience the PCs in such egregiously different ways either, and it definitely creates an inconvenience at low levels.

I would suggest at this point to post your build: this forum excels at two things related to Tome of Battle, and the one that isn't "yelling at people who don't use it" is "giving good advice related to it", so you'll probably get some good feedback. I would suspect that after a couple Warblade levels, you'll be in better shape. You *MIGHT* be able to talk your DM into trading a fighter level for a warblade level (twice), maybe when you level or maybe now. I would bet you could make a much stronger F2/R2/Warblade N-4 for an Nth level character, given how little the core fighter gives you for 3rd and 4th level.

But we are pretty well outside my area of expertise at this point, so I leave you in more capable hands.

Doc Roc

2011-05-24, 03:41 PM

Dear cfalcon,
I have not yelled at you for not using 9swords. I am about to yell at you for not understanding it. Limiting maneuvers to 1x encounter is a gigantic nerf, particularly for a warblade.

Cordially,
Jake

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 03:51 PM

It certainly is at low levels. By the time he's Warblade, say, 10? Eventually you reach a point where your typical encounter will be either ending or effectively resolved before you run OOM.

In any event, I don't like that particular warblade nerf at all. The warblade's abilities are clearly meant to be balanced around constant refresh, and generally limiting mechanics like that needs to be done very carefully- look how crappy a wizard is to play once he's out of his good juice, for instance, especially at low levels, when the crossbow comes out.

veven

2011-05-24, 05:06 PM

I had similar experiences in a group I've been playing with for like seven years.

These guys taught me how to play (oh so wrongly btw...we've corrected most of our misconceptions) so the first couple campaigns I was in a played a rogue and then a barbarian/bear warrior because magic seemed complicated (which it is comparatively). They played a lot of wizards, druids, and clerics but they treated all of them as blasters. Sadly I thought that was D&D magic for a quite a while until i started spending more time reading online and reading the books themselves. I tried dozens of times to convince them to try a different method of playing full casters but they continued to fill their 4th or 5th level slots with literally only flame strike.

One lucky day after like 5 campaigns of me (still having tons of fun) playing mundane characters (and never receiving buffs) I decided to play an unseen seer in a campaign. I focused mostly on stealthy type stuff so I didn't seem insanely powerful (although the first battle I busted out a sculpted glitterdust and blinded all but one enemy the DM was pretty flustered).

I eventually acquired a Bard cohort (in the second to last session) in preparation for the final battle. They were level 13 (a cleric and a druid) and I was level 12 with my level 10 bard cohort. The battle was against a bucket of mid level archers, and a few greater stone golems and god knows what else. I guess we were supposed to run but I knew that there would be a battle so instead of my usually stealth oriented spell list I filled my slots with buffs and battle field control. I also introduced the cleric to the magic of Divine Power. We had three rounds to decide to run so instead the bard and I buffed the cleric to high heaven and then I used a ton of grease spells to disable the golems and various clouds to take out the archers. I had bought a golem bane scarab so the cleric had no problem dispatching the golems (along with me using acidic splatter when I had the chance). The DM was dumbfounded (the encounter CR was like 20..)and so were my fellow players.

Ever since then they understand the power of a well prepared spell caster. No more, "I cast flame strike" for four or five rounds.

If you like these guys I say stick with them. Eventually you might get the chance to show them how much better they can be if they take advantage of their spell lists and use team work.

Edit: Also, that character never took any damage in eleven sessions (abrupt jaunt...so dirty) which forced the DM to change his style a bit too, his spell caster BBEG's are no longer laughable 2 round battles where the bad guy gets to cast one scorching ray and then we obliterate them.

Doc Roc

2011-05-24, 06:30 PM

kardar233

2011-05-24, 06:41 PM

If you want to stick with this game and a combat-based character, and he's limiting recovery mechanics for ToB, try swordsage. They don't really have a recovery mechanic anyway.

If I was going to play a low-magic campaign, I'd play Iron Heroes. Works much better than 3.5, especially if you don't heavily nerf full-casters.

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 06:43 PM

And note that you get more XP for being a lower level, so it balances out before endgame.

Except for in this case.

Also, how on earth did that ToB nerf seem like a good idea at the time? :smallconfused:

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-05-24, 07:24 PM

A note on the XP: If things are as slow going as they seem they are, even if this DM is giving him extra XP being half a level behind hurts, meaning about half of his time will be spent a level behind, even by RAW.

NineThePuma

2011-05-24, 09:06 PM

Ugh, your wizards run out of juice?

I once had a wizard run out of juice during an encounter. He had to get up and go get some outta the kitchen. We ended up spending five rounds sucking until he came back and floored the encounter in one round.

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 09:32 PM

Ugh, your wizards run out of juice? Are they not high int or not specialists? I strongly suspect we play different games.

High Int normally, specialists sometimes. Note I didn't say "run out of juice". I said, run out of the good juice. Normally after one encounter a wizard will be much lower in option and total available power, and if he's blowing quickened spells it can be much faster than that. Once you are out of your highest two levels of spells (or nearly), your overall power is much lower.

At low levels, you just flat out run out of spells, of course.

Doc Roc

2011-05-24, 09:52 PM

High Int normally, specialists sometimes. Note I didn't say "run out of juice". I said, run out of the good juice. Normally after one encounter a wizard will be much lower in option and total available power, and if he's blowing quickened spells it can be much faster than that. Once you are out of your highest two levels of spells (or nearly), your overall power is much lower.

At low levels, you just flat out run out of spells, of course.

What. I disagree on every count.

You don't open with high level spells for routine encounters, so if you're burning the good juice out straight away, I think you may just be deeply injudicious about its use or facing other casters with great regularity. In the latter case, your party is going to get completely fraggle-rocked without you. To me, that's the definition of unspeakable power and I'd be pretty shocked if your attempts to balance non-casters are worth a lick in the face of that.

I don't normally run out of spells at low levels. Quicken should be used exclusively via MM mitigation, rods, arcane fusion, sudden MM, or emulated with arcane spellsurge. The takeaway is that yes, we're playing different games.

NineThePuma

2011-05-24, 09:53 PM

It says something to me when a level 1 spell can be used at level 14 to stone wall humanoid opponents.

erikun

2011-05-24, 10:03 PM

Except, the other PC's did level up.

That being said, there is something screwy with the leveling and exp; as a lower level character you shouldn't be having this difficulty with catching up, especially with other players gaining levels.
If the party was 8th level and 70% of the way to next level, then a new 7th level character at 50% to next level would still be 7th when the rest of the party hits 9th. Also, most new characters typically get introduced at the XP value for just hitting 7th level - the 50% to next level rule is for raised characters.

That's how most DMs I've seen play the game.

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 10:05 PM

It says something to me when a level 1 spell can be used at level 14 to stone wall humanoid opponents.

Which level 1 spell? There's a couple I had thought.

NineThePuma

2011-05-24, 10:08 PM

cfalcon

2011-05-24, 10:14 PM

What. I disagree on every count.

You don't open with high level spells for routine encounters, so if you're burning the good juice out straight away, I think you may just be deeply injudicious about its use. I don't normally run out of spells at low levels. Quicken should be used exclusively via MM mitigation, rods, arcane fusion, sudden MM, or emulated with arcane spellsurge. The takeaway is that yes, we're playing different games.

Oh, yea, totally. I wouldn't let a caster get away with most of that stuff.

Sudden Quicken and rods are in my games. Sudden Quicken has a LOT of requirements though, so someone doing that is full on committed. Rods are rare and cost more than normal, and I don't think I've ever seen the highest level ones show up. The other stuff isn't in there.

So yea, I definitely play with less player options than you. Or at least different ones.

Veyr

2011-05-24, 10:40 PM

Grease. Very often Balance is a cross class skill, and I've yet to see anyone actually NEED to put points in balance without needing a Prereq. Often, my DMs -forget that it's a skill- x3

So most of my DM's humanoid opponents now come with ecolocator levels. x3
Hah, by comparison, I consider 5 ranks in Balance a pre-req on any body who can even remotely feasibly afford it.

NineThePuma

2011-05-24, 10:41 PM

I do too, but that's -because- of the grease spell.

Doc Roc

2011-05-24, 11:13 PM

Oh, yea, totally. I wouldn't let a caster get away with most of that stuff.

Sudden Quicken and rods are in my games. Sudden Quicken has a LOT of requirements though, so someone doing that is full on committed. Rods are rare and cost more than normal, and I don't think I've ever seen the highest level ones show up. The other stuff isn't in there.

So yea, I definitely play with less player options than you. Or at least different ones.

You can do plenty enough damage with a minor rod of quicken.

DMfromTheAbyss

2011-05-24, 11:45 PM

So on the note of the having ranks in balance.. here's my character in this game currently. Just note that the build options I was working with were quite limited (campaign rules etc etc..) and I wasn't going for full bore optimization by any stretch. I was aiming for solid, useful fighter with an army scout turned commando feel.

Race Human-blooded VOS (+2 to str checks)
(Blood strength 23 Voryn)
Blood abilities: Battle Wise, Direction Sense (yes rolled randomly)
Class Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Warblade 2
STR 18
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
WIS 13
CHA 13
HP: 72 (rolled) AC 19/23 (shield)

(Yes we rolled for stats and I got fairly lucky between that and the blood abilities fitting my concept.)

Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Iron Will, Imp Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple, Improved Trip

Class features of note.. Track,uncanny dodge,Favored Enemy: Human

Notable gear. Halberd, spiked gauntlets, +2 red glowing Elven Longsword (INT 9 that swears at me in a language I can't understand)
+2 Chain shirt (imp shadow) +2 Lg Shield (which I use only when in tight quarters, usually underground with the sword as a b!t@hy torch.)

Initiator Level 4

Stance: Punishing Stance
Manuvers: Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Emerald Razor, Disarming Strike

Yeah for reference this is the first TOB character I've played... I've played with some theoretical op with a high level master of nine build just to stress test the system and made a monster, but without that even being an option, and with me wanting to go more for RP I just chose what fit him.

For reference build rules are...

races allowed, human (various sub races) elf, dwarf and halfling.

Classes I've seen disalowed so far.. Monk, sword sage, Druid (apparently druids are clerics with a woodsy feel in this campaign setting) any-prestige class with a dual casting progression (theurge etc). Most prestige classes are basically only allowed by exception.

Feats are PHB only with a few others snuck begged or borrowed in.. and anything that resembles shocktrooper, leap attack or any power attack multiplier are apparently out. Leadership is also out (in fact he had no idea what it WAS oddly enough, he said he was giving it to everyone for free at 9th-10th depending on RP and class (so being melee might work out for a plus for a change.. but somehow I doubt it.:smallsigh:)

If I do reroll I'm thinking some sort of war-priest (Codzila)or possibly some type of mage-turned to a melee build, just to prove a point:smallbiggrin:.

any suggestions How I can min max this a bit are welcome, but bear in mind the heavy restrictions both on the game, and it should stay as close a s possible to the concept of "scouty soldier looking to prove himself a leader of men".

Incidentally for resisting the grease immobilization, you need 5 "ranks" or a +5 bonus to balance.. might want to tweak that if it ever comes up.. he only has a +6 (3 from dex) at the moment.. though with his lousy skil points his affording it is questionable I guess.

Doc Roc

2011-05-24, 11:54 PM

Scouty. Soldier. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Fdefault.asp%3Fx %3Ddnd%2Fprc%2F20070327&ei=bovcTeSFCqbmiAKhs_0e&usg=AFQjCNHmMKknAdJd5UO5e-gn3an7gih7Ow)

Go go go.

Kylarra

2011-05-24, 11:56 PM

Leadership is also out (in fact he had no idea what it WAS oddly enough, he said he was giving it to everyone for free at 9th-10th depending on RP and class (so being melee might work out for a plus for a change.. but somehow I doubt it.:smallsigh:)This part does jive with the 2e mentality in a 3.x game, which is where I suspect a lot of the problems stem from.

Whammydill

2011-05-25, 07:11 AM

In regards to the Birthright setting, I'm going to say that limiting classes is probably a good idea for one big reason: Bloodtheft. In the setting a characters bloodline is a measurement of how much of a dead god's blood-essense is running through the character's veins. This has a direct effect on how well a regent or scion can rule his holdings. Depending on the strength and derivation of which dead god's blood, it can also give spell like abilites or bonuses to various things. You also get bonus HP depending on your bloodline strength. It is a very important stat. One of several ways to increase the strength of your bloodline is "bloodtheft"

When a blooded character dies, their "blood-essence" bursts forth in an area that gets bigger the stronger the bloodline score. Each person in this area starting with the closest to the now deceased blood-bomb absorbs part of this burst which can, depending upon several factors, increase his bloodline strength. What's left of the burst then goes on to the next person, then the next person...etc.

Bloodtheft using a special metal called Tighmaevril(sp) or "Blood Silver" IIRC, means that this burst still happens, only the burst goes to you and only you, untill all the burst is spent. Since this form of bloodtheft also uncaps certain limitations on the factors that apply it can potentially raise your score signifigantly.

Whereas a little optimization can get you far. Over-optimization is just game-breaking. Moreso than other settings unless your group (as mine did,) redo the class/optimization levels of important NPCs. It's now easy to curbstomp major NPCs because they were a 9th level fighter in 2nd ed and are now specialized in the copious self-application of the nerf-bat in 3.x ed.

I can understand the reasoning about class-rationing the OP's DM is using. I just think he isn't balancing things across the board. I'd probably not allow TOB in my Birthright if I hadn't already implemented it into some of the NPCs. Druids are in fact just priests of Erik. I don't see why they both can't exist though. Birthright in it's current form is still a work-in-progress. I'd say it's still in beta and needs a different polish for every game table's needs. Still a very nice system and fun to play.