gestalt thoughts and possible variant of a variant

[Darth Stabber]

So after reading lots gestalt related posts, and seeing how my own players react when given the option, it seems a very common reaction for players to use the opportunity to play a race with LA and/or racial hit dice, not that I blaim them, the lure of powerful races with the sting of lost levels taken out is a powerful lure indeed, I would do the same thing if given the chance. For example, I just had two players roll up gesalt characters. (As a note my players tend to avoid tier 1 and 2 classes, don't know why but I am very happy with that fact)

The first one created a Drow la/binder2//crusader4, which is a good combat monkey (though I'm not sure why he didn't go warblade on a +int race) but not crazy compared to what the other player came up with. The other player (my rather inexperienced friend said she wanted to play a faerie, so I asked "like a satyr, or a dryad or a pixie", and she jumped on pixie. I then asked what class she wanted since she would not get to pick the second one yet, and she asked for some thing good for tricking people with magic and stealth, which naturally calls to mind beguiler. So now she has a pixie la//beguiler with 24 int and 22 cha and dex with an 18SR(14 plus hit dice), greater invisibility at will, and a host of other special abilities, on top of an already very nicely abilitied and highly synergistic base class.

Now let me preface this next statement by saying I realize that balance in D&D is a very relative thing, but since both players are playing tier 3 we can claim a reasonable expectation for it in this instance.

Does allowing players to use the ECL of their race+templates as one side of a gestalt further unbalance the game? And if this is not so, would the idea of limiting gestalt to a certain number levels (ie class 1X//class 2 Y where Y is the limit point(current though 4 or 6)) be a reasonable variant of a variant? I suggest this because I like non-standard races being playable, but sometimes gestalt is unneccessary (ie with parties greater than 4).

[Dylaer]

Well, generally, LA or Racial Hit Die are worse than character levels - with a few exceptions, of course. Whether or not it creates a balance issue is more to do with how you handle it, really. Enemy NPCs should also be gestalt, and you'd have to tweak some monsters - maybe add some non-associated class levels in order to bump up their options and HD.

[Darth Stabber]

Actually given that the cr system is "balanced" for 4 non-gestalt party members, and I have 2 gestalts I really don't want to up the ante on them. I generally only use gestalt when I have 2~3 players, just to give them a nudge toward the power of a full party.

[erikun]

Playing gestalt with RHD/LA on one side is apparently rather common, if comments and questions on this forum are any indication. A number of gestalt players (and quite a few DMs) end up asking how it works out.

The biggest problem, perhaps, is running a game where the party level is less than the racial HD + LA on the other side. It doesn't sound like that's an issue for your current game, though. It just looks like your players ended up with very synergetic combinations, which happens a lot in gestalt games.

I'm not sure what you mean by a gestalt limiting point... something like ClassA 6//ClassB 6, and then you only progress normally (non-gestalt)? I suppose that could work, although it's very similar to the "everyone gets up to +6 RHD/LA for free" that some DMs use. It does have the advantage of allowing a player to fill that side with class levels, though, rather than trying to pad it with LA that doesn't fit the character. I would recommend allowing Gish and Theurge prestige classes after 6th level, in this case, even if they use both sides to qualify.

[Darth Stabber]

Also, while racial hit dice are weak, LA is generally decent, except for lack of hit dice, skill, saves base attack, and caster level. In gestalt you still get those things, you just don't get the best of two while you pay off ECL. If you were to take 2 classes each class would have a hit die, a save progression, base attack, and skill points, all of which you gain the better, and class features which you gain both. Racial LA is "balanced" against what you would gain if you had taken that many levels in a class, but it only offers features (to include stat increases). Features are the one part of any class that you always get in gestalt, any of the others can be over written by a class with a better one. A rouges bab can be over written by fighter, which would also overwrite hitdie and fort save. Hit die size, bab, and skill points are all non-binary nonvariable effects that contribute to "balance" of a class. If a class has 3/4 bab that is a part of the class's value (since it is an improvement over 1/2), if you take it alongside a class that has full bab, that is over written thus negating a portion of the class's value. And if you run 2 full BAB classes, you are loosing even more. Thus LA has none of its potential value staked in anything that might disappear. Now all of this is primarily theoretical, and based on the assumption that the game is balanced, but the point remains atleast some what valid (until a human wizardX//commonerX is still dominating).

[erikun]

I suppose I get what you are saying: gestalting with LA is stronger because you get all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. You get HP, feats, skill points, and so on. On the other hand, with the exception of the more abusive LA (generally Powerful Build or ones that grant spellcasting) you aren't really getting anything from the LA that you aren't getting from a decent character class. Look at the abilities that the Drow's +2 LA gives, then look at a 2nd level Cleric. Even without the HP and saves, is the Drow that much better? Especially when you can take another level of Cleric to increase those abilities.

Sure, something like Barbarian 5//Half-Dragon template looks good together, but is it better than Crusader 5//Cleric 5 going into Ruby Knight Vindicator? Or how about Warblade 5//Bard 5 with Song of the White Raven? Or even something comparatively "weak", like Monk 5//Healer 5 going into Sacred Fist?

[Greenish]

On the other hand, with the exception of the more abusive LA (generally Powerful Build or ones that grant spellcasting)How is Powerful Build "abusive"?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've always seen gestalt run this way, and with a few exceptions, I don't think it is terribly unbalanced. There are sure to be some rough spots - specific creatures or races that are really good for their LA/HD - but I think, overall, it should be fine.

[Salanmander]

Another way to play it is to have LA take up alternating sides, so that pixie would have 2 class levels of full gestalt, instead of 4 single-class levels. This generally still leaves LA races better off than in non-gestalt D&D, but weaker than the way you're playing it. It might be what you're looking for.

If you want LA to be about as useful as in non-gestalt D&D, try multiplying it by 1.5 and using the scheme above or something like that, so a pixie would lose 3 full gestalt levels, instead of the 4 full levels they would normally lose. (I've never tried this, but it seems like that's roughly where "hurts as much as in a normal game" would land.)