Early entry question

[JohnDaBarr]

You wanna enter a prestige class witch has a prerequisite of, lets say, 8 ranks in skill X and you don't want to wait till lvl 6 to enter it, sooo.... is there a way to get those ranks sooner?

sincerely in 3.5 i will be surprised if there isn't a feats that enables this!!

[RebelRogue]

Yes, you can get 8 ranks in a skill by level 5 right out of the box :smalltongue: (Edit, ah, so you meant the first level in the actual PrC... So much for trying to be funny...)

But there's several ways to do this, I think.

[Diarmuid]

I dont know of any ways to get a higher max ranks. That and BAB are one set of prereqs that really cant be "faked".

[mootoall]

Cityscape gives you the Favored/Primary Contact chain, giving you one extra rank in a skill, even if it breaks the limit. There are also some Inspire Greatness/Level Drain shenanigans, and I think something with a Storm/Dusk Giant?

[Quirp]

You could get that bard song (inspire greatness?) right when you level up. Since it improves your HD you would have higher maximum ranks and could get 8 ranks early. Most DM´s won´t allow that, though.

[Devmaar]

It's Dusk Giant, you need to pay someone to Polymorph you into one, use its cannibalise ability to raise your HD (and therefore max ranks) and then pay someone else to manifest Psychic Reformation so you can reallocate your permanent skill ranks up to your temporary maximum. When the temp. HD go away, you're left with skill ranks above your normal maximum.

Expensive, extremely cheesy, but RAW legal.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You could get that bard song (inspire greatness?) right when you level up. Since it improves your HD you would have higher maximum ranks and could get 8 ranks early. Most DM´s won´t allow that, though.

Doesn't matter. If you're under the effects of Inspire Greatness while someone manifests psychic reformation on you, that'll work just fine.:smallwink:

[Darth_Versity]

I remember some shennanigans with Psychic Reformation where you raise your character level temporarily then change your previous skill choices using the power but cant remember exactly how to do it.

^Ninja'd

[JohnDaBarr]

Thx people ill think about it

[Dusk Eclipse]

I dont know of any ways to get a higher max ranks. That and BAB are one set of prereqs that really cant be "faked".

Actually with a really cheesy ruling of dragon type (dragowrought kobolds for example) automatically qualifying for anything with the dragonblood subtype pre-req, you can get into the dragonblooded substitution level and since BAB is function of looking of a table you could take the 7the level of dragonblood cleric and gain BAB + 5... at level 1. More info on the You break it, you buy it subforum at Brilliant gameologist.

Cheesy as hell though :smaltongue:

[Diarmuid]

I dont usually bother taking into account "really cheesy readings".

I started to try to work out how/why that might possibly work and just decided it was far too silly to even bother.

Taking a level of something and assuming you simply get the number there is fundamentally flawed. That would mean a 3rd level fighter would have a BAB of +6 since he got +1, then +2, then +3 respectively at 1st, 2nd, 3rd levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually with a really cheesy ruling of dragon type (dragowrought kobolds for example) automatically qualifying for anything with the dragonblood subtype pre-req, you can get into the dragonblooded substitution level and since BAB is function of looking of a table you could take the 7the level of dragonblood cleric and gain BAB + 5... at level 1. More info on the You break it, you buy it subforum at Brilliant gameologist.

Cheesy as hell though :smaltongue:

That is NOT how substitution levels work! You can't take level 7 unless you're already level 6 in the class. :smallannoyed:

[Bakkan]

That is NOT how substitution levels work! You can't take level 7 unless you're already level 6 in the class. :smallannoyed:

Normally, yes. However, this reading comes from, IIRC, the Draconomicon, which says something along the lines of "dragons qualify for anything requiring dragonblooded as a prerequisite," without any language indicating that said dragon has to meet the other prerequisites of the class, feat, etc. The generous reading gives dragons the ability to take any substitution level requiring a dragonblooded character and ignoring all other prerequisites such as having the previous 6 levels in that class.

[dextercorvia]

A bloodline from UA does it. But, there isn't a consensus as to whether they increase ECL or not.

[Rejakor]

It actually specifically says 'true dragons qualify for any of this stuff full stop even if they don't meet the other prerequisites'. Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.

It's not RAI, but it's extremely RAW. In fact, RAW, there IS no other meaning you can take from it.

And due to the way substitution levels work, and the way you add to your BAB, you really do get +7 from that one 9th level cleric substitution.

[tuesdayscoming]

It actually specifically says 'true dragons qualify for any of this stuff full stop even if they don't meet the other prerequisites'. Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.

Actually, there's some debate as to whether or not dragonwrought kobolds are technically "True Dragons". The category specifically requires that you get stronger as you go into different age categories, or something silly like that. Depending on your interpretation, Dragonwrought Kobolds may or may not qualify.

Luckily, though, if we're both referencing the same passage, it doesn't actually say "True Dragons," just "Dragons." Can't recall the page number, but I know for sure that this is the passage that technically allows the Cheesebold to take epic feats before 21, if nothing else.

Anyways, sorry for the off-topic post. Mootoall has the right idea; Favored/Primary Contact is, to my knowledge, the only legal way of doing this that is not an obvious rules exploit.

[FMArthur]

Actually, there's some debate as to whether or not dragonwrought kobolds are technically "True Dragons". The category specifically requires that you get stronger as you go into different age categories, or something silly like that. Depending on your interpretation, Dragonwrought Kobolds may or may not qualify.

Luckily, though, if we're both referencing the same passage, it doesn't actually say "True Dragons," just "Dragons." Can't recall the page number, but I know for sure that this is the passage that technically allows the Cheesebold to take epic feats before 21, if nothing else.

Anyways, sorry for the off-topic post. Mootoall has the right idea; Favored/Primary Contact is, to my knowledge, the only legal way of doing this that is not an obvious rules exploit.
There is some debate, and that debate has a "wrong side" and a "right side", the right side being that they are in fact True Dragons. There's no point to the argument that they aren't except "but that would be broken", which has absolutely nothing to do with what the rules say.

[holywhippet]

I would keep rule 0 in mind for anything like this. Having RAW methods of getting into a prestige class early won't help you if your DM flat out says no. IMHO they would be entirely justified in doing so - prestige classes aren't meant to be entered in early by design. The developers (I assume) just didn't want to state or didn't see the need to state this explicitely.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I would keep rule 0 in mind for anything like this. Having RAW methods of getting into a prestige class early won't help you if your DM flat out says no. IMHO they would be entirely justified in doing so - prestige classes aren't meant to be entered in early by design. The developers (I assume) just didn't want to state or didn't see the need to state this explicitely.

Yeah, no. I don't believe that in the slightest. Most (if not all) early entries require you to blow a feat or two or three to enter. When you're only getting 7-8 general feats over 20 levels, that's a brutal requirement.

Truth is, we don't know RAI on this, so we use RAW. And considering how prestige classes like Master Specialist and Stoneblessed and others exist that can be entered from level freaking 2, I'd say that early entry is arguably intentional.

[Hirax]

Cityscape gives you the Favored/Primary Contact chain, giving you one extra rank in a skill, even if it breaks the limit. There are also some Inspire Greatness/Level Drain shenanigans, and I think something with a Storm/Dusk Giant?

This actually doesn't work unless you can somehow take primary contact at 4th level.

[Doc Roc]

This actually doesn't work unless you can somehow take primary contact at 4th level.

erm, technically you might make an argument for it working from chameleon or psychic reformation or bonus hit dice as otherwise discussed. With either of those though, you're really going the long way around. the only really good mechanisms have already been discussed in thread I think.

[UnholyPenance]

You wanna enter a prestige class witch has a prerequisite of, lets say, 8 ranks in skill X and you don't want to wait till lvl 6 to enter it, sooo.... is there a way to get those ranks sooner?

sincerely in 3.5 i will be surprised if there isn't a feats that enables this!!

If you don't mind wasting a feat, there is one from Complete Adventurer: Open-Minded. No prereqs and it gives you five skill points. It sounds like it could work, but you'd have to take a feat. Doesn't seem too bad unless you need a few feats for the prestige class.

[Hirax]

If you don't mind wasting a feat, there is one from Complete Adventurer: Open-Minded. No prereqs and it gives you five skill points. It sounds like it could work, but you'd have to take a feat. Doesn't seem too bad unless you need a few feats for the prestige class.

It doesn't work. The feat specifically says it doesn't work in its description.

[UnholyPenance]

It doesn't work. The feat specifically says it doesn't work in its description.

it would, except i misread that he didn't want to wait to take the first prestige level at 6th. With the feat, he could take the 6th level as the first in the prestige

[Thrice Dead Cat]

it would, except i misread that he didn't want to wait to take the first prestige level at 6th. With the feat, he could take the 6th level as the first in the prestige

No, he couldn't, do to the order of operations of leveling up. Feats come after choosing your level in a class.

[mootoall]

Yeah, burning two feats (without a chaos shuffle) to get early entry is possible if you kill a couple fighter bonus feats with it. Or if you're a warblade (for their fifth level feat). Psy reformation works too. But ultimately it's better not to waste a level or two on fighter just for the sake of early entry. Also, using two of your feats in general to qualify for a PrC has to be worth it for you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Normally, yes. However, this reading comes from, IIRC, the Draconomicon, which says something along the lines of "dragons qualify for anything requiring dragonblooded as a prerequisite," without any language indicating that said dragon has to meet the other prerequisites of the class, feat, etc. The generous reading gives dragons the ability to take any substitution level requiring a dragonblooded character and ignoring all other prerequisites such as having the previous 6 levels in that class.


It actually specifically says 'true dragons qualify for any of this stuff full stop even if they don't meet the other prerequisites'. Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.

It's not RAI, but it's extremely RAW. In fact, RAW, there IS no other meaning you can take from it.

And due to the way substitution levels work, and the way you add to your BAB, you really do get +7 from that one 9th level cleric substitution.

No offense, but that's retarded. And cheating.

[Greenish]

No offense, but that's retarded. And cheating.Pointing it out isn't retarded nor cheating. The rules themselves may be the former, and trying to get the trick past your DM the latter, but pointing out what the relevant rule very explicitly says is neither.

Also, if you can't stand RAW discussions, well, just ignore them. :smallamused: