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Darth_Versity
2011-05-23, 11:41 AM
So a few years back I made a custom PrC and I posted it on the Wizards board and it got absolutely brutalised by criticisms. So I took all the feedback onboard and remade it but by then the boards were pretty dead due to 4e taking over and no one really looked at it.

Well I was looking through my computer today and saw it and thought 'Hey, i'll let you guys look and see what you think.

http://i55.tinypic.com/1oq79y.jpg

The general idea behind it is to have a class that actually provides a flying dragon mount thats available to most characters without breaking the game or overshadowing the character but still looking really cool even at lower levels.

Most of the rules on the Dragon came from Draconomicon and Dragon Magic, and at higher levels is equivelent to a Paladin with the Dragon Steed feat but opens it up to both good and evil characters, not just Lawful Good.

The requirements are pretty basic, but I hate seeing a string of ridiculous feat and skill requirements that basically control how you build your character (im looking at you, Master of Nine), and opted for requiring weak feats. (Mounted combat is good, but many items from the MiC replicate it and skill focus is a waste in most cases)

The 5/10 divine casting and BAB+7 requuirement allow a cleric to still progress in the class with respectable casting by level 20, meaning that the only class that has no real options are Arcane casters.

The fact that your Dragon is based off of character level and not class level is the biggest debate I had with my self in regards to balance as it allows a 1 level dip to get a dragon as a partner, but then I decided it wasn't to bad as the Dragon Cohort feat already does this without giving up a class level. The 1 level dip idea also opens the possibility of a whole party of dragon riders, but only 1 or two actually progressing in the class to get the better Mount at higher levels.

Let me know what you think and any balance issues you may have as i would really love some other peoples input.

Morph Bark
2011-05-23, 11:47 AM
That it advances spellcasting, but has no such requirement, is kind of weird.

Also, for Neutral Dragon Riders, you could have them worship Sardior and replace spellcasting with manifesting psionic powers. It could be under Adaptation if you don't feel like having that as part of the main stuff.

I have to say I'm impressed that you went through the effort to make it look like part of an actual official book. Is the image also from WotC? If not, what's the source?

Darth_Versity
2011-05-23, 12:13 PM
I decided to put the spellcasting in without a requirement as a way to make it open for both Warrior and Clerical characters so as to make it possible to enter the class from all sorts of classes and still be a good choice. Similar to the Skylord in book of exalted deeds.

I was so in love with the idea playing a Dragon Rider at the time (I think I had just read Eragon) that I wanted to make it look more 'official' so i ripped the background from a pdf I had and made it up like that.

The image is actually from deviantart http://el-grimlock.deviantart.com/art/Rider-2-50249664 I actually dont think I asked persmission to use it but at the time it was only for personal use. I should really let them know.

Morph Bark
2011-05-23, 12:22 PM
I decided to put the spellcasting in without a requirement as a way to make it open for both Warrior and Clerical characters so as to make it possible to enter the class from all sorts of classes and still be a good choice. Similar to the Skylord in book of exalted deeds.

Checking over the Skylord, I see that you're right. Still feels awkward though - like that the Skylord should also require at least the ability to cast 1st-level (or 0th-level) spells.


The image is actually from deviantart http://el-grimlock.deviantart.com/art/Rider-2-50249664 I actually dont think I asked persmission to use it but at the time it was only for personal use. I should really let them know.

Letting them know is a good idea, or at least putting the artist's name by the picture, which I advise you to always do, as many DA artists allow showing of their work as long as they are credited, as long as it isn't used for profit or if the picture is altered.

(Admittably, when homebrew has an uncredited picture, I often find it very rude towards the artist, except in cases of extremely popular pictures that nobody can trace back to the artist, but those aren't often used as they generally concern rather generic anime pictures.)

Mulletmanalive
2011-05-23, 04:36 PM
I'd make a point of including some manoeuvre support for this, simply because it massively favours the cleric option atm.

Even if it just allowed you at add additional "effective" levels of initiating classes insead of spellcasting at those levels. Bare minimum, it should grant bonus feats or someting for those who have no spellcasting.

If you're not practicing spellcasting on the side, you should be a better combat rider. Full stop.

My real criticism beyond that is the capstone is awesome, the name isn't. Call it something like "ever by my side" or "two shall stand, none shall fall," or something else impressive. It deserves it.

otakulrd86
2011-05-23, 08:02 PM
Nice, and how did you get the format for the page graphic because that is impressive?

Darth_Versity
2011-05-24, 03:48 AM
I'd make a point of including some manoeuvre support for this, simply because it massively favours the cleric option atm.

Even if it just allowed you at add additional "effective" levels of initiating classes insead of spellcasting at those levels. Bare minimum, it should grant bonus feats or someting for those who have no spellcasting.

If you're not practicing spellcasting on the side, you should be a better combat rider. Full stop.

Well when I made the class we didn't have Tome of Battle so I didn't even know what manuevers were at the time. While adding manuevers would allow more martial characters to keep up in the power department it doesn't fit in thematically unless they started in a ToB class to begin with.

Maybe allowing them to pick some devoted spirit ones in a similar manner as the crusader as they are granted by your god. I'll have to think about a way to include it as just saying +Initiator class doesn't fit with the PrC advancement from ToB.

Maybe change the prerequisites to require 1st level divine spells or a maneuver from the Devoted Spirit or Stone Dragon disciplines and then let them pick a new manuever from one of those every other level with levels 5 and 10 granting a stance. But then it needs to point out you get the maneuvers OR the spellcasting, not both.

My only worry though is that will swing it in favour of Martial adepts who can enter the class 3 levels earlier and get all the best manuevers where clerics have to suffer caster level losses. I could change it so you only loose 3 CL out of the 10, but I dont want the class to become overpowered. I mean, it gives you a DRAGON for Christ sake. Should people really get their cake and eat it?


My real criticism beyond that is the capstone is awesome, the name isn't. Call it something like "ever by my side" or "two shall stand, none shall fall," or something else impressive. It deserves it.

Yeah, maybe something a bit more epic sounding is needed :smalltongue:


Nice, and how did you get the format for the page graphic because that is impressive?

I have a few of my books in pdf format. The background is actually from Weapons of Legacy. During a game a few years back we all picked a legacy weapon and printed them out, but I wanted to make my own so I decided to make it look official like everyone elses. When I made this class I decided to stick to the same format.

I actually have a higher quality version of this class in pdf. I can link it if you want.

Mulletmanalive
2011-05-24, 07:11 AM
Just grant +1 manouvre known and +1 readied whenever they would gain casting, then.

Considering that you can, at present, still gain level 8 casting by 20th and slap Divine Might on your dragon, i'm pretty sure nothing you can do to this can make the initiator more powerful than the cleric option. [before you ask, i can't remember how you do this but i've seen it done, entirely legitimately at 15th level by a cleric, without shennanegins]

Plus, seriously, is it even theoretically possible for half initiation to come close to half cleric casting in sheer power?

otakulrd86
2011-05-24, 09:13 AM
That would be great Thank You.

DracoDei
2011-05-24, 10:47 AM
I have a gripe with it, same as I do with most classes that allow riding an sapient creature, although yours is less of a problem than some I have seen. See my Society Members (Short version of the name) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6018203&postcount=5) IF (and only IF) you have an interest in making it more of an equal partnership.


Just grant +1 manouvre known and +1 readied whenever they would gain casting, then.
Eh, seems a little... quantized to me, but maybe if you alternated them by level (with first level granting a maneuver known), or allowed a maneuver swap at the other levels... in any case I would probably throw in a Stance at one or two levels (5, 5 and 10,... whatever, I haven't looked at the class table all that closely).


Considering that you can, at present, still gain level 8 casting by 20th and slap Divine Might on your dragon, i'm pretty sure nothing you can do to this can make the initiator more powerful than the cleric option. [before you ask, i can't remember how you do this but i've seen it done, entirely legitimately at 15th level by a cleric, without shennanegins]

In this case the mount gets "Share Spells". You can use the same casting on yourself AND the Dragon...

Other than that I would say that it should NOT allow advancing Maneuvers AND Spells for a single character, otherwise a 1 level dip gets you double rewards. A single sentence of boiler-plate should cover this.

If you do add a maneuver progressing option, make sure you look up Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991) and Silver Pegasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255) disciplines and include one or both in the list of available disciplines.

Morph Bark
2011-05-24, 11:04 AM
After extensively looking for it and seeing them not there... how many skill points does he get per level?

Also, since the mount is based off character level, it could be fairly easily "abused" to get a strong dragon mount by just taking a single level in it.

Darth_Versity
2011-05-24, 12:09 PM
That would be great Thank You.

I've uploaded the current version to http://www.scribd.com/doc/56166367
i'll let you know when an updated one is done.


I have a gripe with it, same as I do with most classes that allow riding an sapient creature, although yours is less of a problem than some I have seen.

I think the mount becoming just another set of numbers that change with the PC'c stats is one of the problems inherent in DnD. It does have some mechanical sense in this regard though as the players mount is granted by a God, therefor if the player gets weaker for some reason is simply the God showing their displeasure by also weakening the companion.

Thats a nice class though.


Other than that I would say that it should NOT allow advancing Maneuvers AND Spells for a single character, otherwise a 1 level dip gets you double rewards. A single sentence of boiler-plate should cover this.

If you do add a maneuver progressing option, make sure you look up Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991) and Silver Pegasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255) disciplines and include one or both in the list of available disciplines.

I totally agree that it should not advance both classes. Look at the abuse that can be done with a RKV because of that. One of the main things I wanted to avoid with the class is making it to strong so that it becomes a basic requirement to take the class.

I really like that set of Twin Spirit manuevers. I shall have to put them in somehow.


After extensively looking for it and seeing them not there... how many skill points does he get per level?

Also, since the mount is based off character level, it could be fairly easily "abused" to get a strong dragon mount by just taking a single level in it.

Hmm, I forgot the skill points, how stupid. It should be 2+INT mod. I know the first post is a bit of a wall of text but I did put in there somewher why I made it off of class level.

Basically it would delay the progress of any one just dipping by reducing caster level or initiator level and class features. The only class that can really just dip without loosing something is the fighter, and lets be honest they need all the help they can get.

The other reason is that taking Dragon Cohort is just as strong and it only cost 1 feat instead of 2 feats, skills and a level.

Its also handy if the whole party want to have a dragon (oh look, the meatshield got a dragon. I want a dragon to!). Some characters can advance through the class getting all the features and the most powerful mounts while other can just dip, loose some class progression but still get a decent mount to make a whole 'Dragon Riding' group.

DracoDei
2011-05-24, 01:28 PM
I think the mount becoming just another set of numbers that change with the PC'c stats is one of the problems inherent in DnD. It does have some mechanical sense in this regard though as the players mount is granted by a God, therefor if the player gets weaker for some reason is simply the God showing their displeasure by also weakening the companion.
Quite frankly the simplest thing you could do to fix this would be to remove the Handle Animal requirement. Perhaps replace it with something else if you need to.

In the Society Member's case it was more how the fluff was written and then making sure the crunch didn't contradict the fluff. I think the "Being Ridden" feat/skill goes a long way towards that. Feel free to yoink it and/or the way the dog's HD and such work, as long as you give me credit specific to those items, including something vaguely like "Draconic Mount(Partner) class feature and Being Ridden feat/skill modified from the Society Members (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6018203&postcount=5) by DracoDei" if you modify it beyond swapping out names/species.

Minor quibble:
In my PrC's case it is more of a "pile of special abilities" (only two, but pretty good ones, especially once you get the class abilities that remove the downsides of the SLAs.), rather than "pile of numbers".


Thats a nice class though.
Thank you.


I totally agree that it should not advance both classes. Look at the abuse that can be done with a RKV because of that. One of the main things I wanted to avoid with the class is making it to strong so that it becomes a basic requirement to take the class.
Well, I am not that familiar with optimization to have even heard about that, but I would think that Ruby Knight Vindicator SHOULD have been designed based on the mistakes made with Mystic Theurge.


I really like that set of Twin Spirit maneuvers. I shall have to put them in somehow.
Glad I could help.

Darth_Versity
2011-05-25, 07:21 AM
Well im away for a week now so i'll come up with some changes and ideas and repost them then.