Gestalt TWF

[Zyant]

First post:
So my DM had the party build lvl 20's, then through some magical something we were all bounced back to lvl 1 Gestalt. Rules are we can only take character classes out of the Psionics handbook(which he would only let one guy use) and the Players handbook (3.5) until lvl 10 (at which we can take prestige classes).

He had us build the lvl 20 so that he could make 'legacy' items for the party that suited the future desired lvl progression for each character. This is where my question comes in.
My legacy items deal all damage as elemental lightening and cold (dual scimitars 1 each). So it occurred to me that the great weakness of TWF (damage reduction) no longer applies.

My original build was Swash3/Fight2/Scout5/Dervish10 (heavy aoo and lots of d6's)
Now I am Gestalt Fight/Rouge 5

Ive got a few lvls before i can take a prestige but I want to qualify for it as soon as i hit 10. I like the favour of dervish but what should i supplement it with in order to take full advantage of my scimitars? 0.0

[Essence_of_War]

Are there any restrictions on source material once you hit the level where you're allowed to leave PHb only?

[Telonius]

Question - when you hit the PrC level, does everything open up, for the other side of Gestalt? A dash of Scout would do nice things to damage when you're doing your Dervish Dance.

[Coidzor]

The 3.0 Psionics Handbook but only one guy is allowed to use it? :smallconfused:

wat

Also, that pair of scimitars seems like it's not so hot of an idea, since now a low level spell confers DR against your base weapon damage since it's all energy. :/

[Telonius]

Also, that pair of scimitars seems like it's not so hot of an idea, since now a low level spell confers DR against your base weapon damage since it's all energy. :/

... didn't notice that bit. This also allows most Demons to ignore/laugh at you, unless you're using another item against them.

[Cog]

The 3.0 Psionics Handbook but only one guy is allowed to use it? :smallconfused:
It sounded to me like everybody could use it, but if it is indeed the 3.0 and not the 3.5, that's not so great anyway. Wouldn't he basically get mauled in psychic combat* since he'd be the only one doing it?

*My knowledge of 3.0 psionics is entirely second-hand, so I might be misunderstanding this.

[Rejakor]

3.0 psionics was kind of borked, wasn't it? Some stupidly omg wtf stronger-than-wizard options, and everything else useless and weird/badly written. Strongly suggest using the XPH instead, especially since it's all online (and free) at d20srd.com.

TWF is a rocky road. A rocky, rocky, road. And that's with non-core options and as much cheese as you can shovel onto it. The problem with TWF isn't DR. It's that you need to struggle to do as much damage as a guy with a 2h sword, that the TWF feats want you to have high dex which is either a waste if you're in heavy armour, or a penalty because now you're MAD (str for damage, dex for hit, con for hp, anything else like int for skillpoints).

The traditional solution to this has been to pull away from str dependency and either use sneak attack dice (along with a ring of blink) or add int/dex/cha to damage, and capitalize on higher number of attacks. Unfortunately, nearly all the ways to do that are non-core. At this point, i'd suggest adding some cheese to your happy meal.

Even Core-Only, wizard, cleric, and druid all have good buff spells (druid less so). Since you're gestalt, you could have a casting side for buffs (and nothing else. Don't be the gish who thinks that using Magic Missile during combat is a good use of his time. Either focus on swordfighting, or focus on shooting doom spells - don't try to do both, especially in Core.

I'd suggest bard//something, but all the ways to sing and still do stuff (song of the white raven, undersong, harmony blade, lingering song) are non-core. So your best bet is full buff caster//rogue 1/fighter 2/rogue X.

Fighter/Rogue just isn't worth it in Core, as there's just not enough feats to be bothered with.

[Essence_of_War]

If you don't have any restrictions, you could start as a Ranger/Rogue then shift into a swift hunter esque build. Take a scout dip on the ranger side and then take swift hunter. You'll get skirmish and sneak attack dice where applicable. I'd recommend a 1-level cleric dip somewhere and the travel devotion feat to go with it. Admittedly though, the Swift Hunter line of feats isn't exactly in the spirit of gestalt.

It's pretty easy to get int and dex to damage for TWF, harder for the scimitar, but for daggers you've got Shadow Blade from ToB for the dex and a 3-level Swashbuckler dip for the int.

[Darth Stabber]

3.0 psionics is a complete and utter mess, for several reasons: a Psionic combat is completely stupid, nonintuitive, and if both the player and the gm are not 100% on those rules, and if the player doesn't optimize for it, then the are a sure fire way to get shredded. In 3.0 having the psionic subtype was more of a weakness than anything else. Also given the structure of powers in that version, and the methods of setting save dcs was so borked. Seriously psionics deals wisdom damage to players in 3.0. Either update to the free 3.5 version or run away as fast as you can.

[Rejakor]

If you don't have any restrictions, you could start as a Ranger/Rogue then shift into a swift hunter esque build. Take a scout dip on the ranger side and then take swift hunter. You'll get skirmish and sneak attack dice where applicable. I'd recommend a 1-level cleric dip somewhere and the travel devotion feat to go with it. Admittedly though, the Swift Hunter line of feats isn't exactly in the spirit of gestalt.

It's pretty easy to get int and dex to damage for TWF, harder for the scimitar, but for daggers you've got Shadow Blade from ToB for the dex and a 3-level Swashbuckler dip for the int.

He's starting from level 1. Core material. We don't even know if he gets non-core at level 10.

Being a crappy twf fighter for 10 levels is not really my (or anyone's, I hope) idea of fun.

The other thing that adds dex to damage is the Hit And Run Fighter ACF from Drow Of The Underdark.

And the thing that adds cha (although replaces str entirely, so you can't have anything replacing str for damage, luckily most stuff adds on top) is the Slippers of Battledancing, again, expensive enough you'll likely wait til level 10ish to get them.

[Coidzor]

He's starting from level 1. Core material. We don't even know if he gets non-core at level 10.

Kind of odd to have Scout and Dervish in the original build and to ban it from the one he's gotta play with though.

I'd be quite suspicious of a DM who suggested that. Shenanigans suspicious.


Being a crappy twf fighter for 10 levels is not really my (or anyone's, I hope) idea of fun.

Indeed.

[Zyant]

I'd suggest bard//something, but all the ways to sing and still do stuff (song of the white raven, undersong, harmony blade, lingering song) are non-core. So your best bet is full buff caster//rogue 1/fighter 2/rogue X.

Fighter/Rogue just isn't worth it in Core, as there's just not enough feats to be bothered with.

He is allowing spells and feats from other sources and what i want is very feat hungry. gambit, double hit, reflexes is just important as the TWF tree cause in the end it gives more attacks (12 aoo attacks as soon i meet the reqs).
I'm really against putting too many lvls in a spell caster cause out of the 6 of us 4 ppl have caster lvls.
The DM also made it seem that we are stuck with the two classes we picked till lvl 10 so i cant dip into more than fighter/rogue atm (gonna have to ask him to clarify on that not sure). might take lvls in swash and scout or hell even swift hunter later but at the moment i am stuck. the party NEEDED a rogue cause the dm loves traps and i wanted to kinda stick to my build so i needed the feat from fighter. =P

[Hazzardevil]

My advice is a standard Dervish on one side, swift hunter on the other. I'll explain why later, I have school now.

[Coidzor]

Your DM sounds like he's playing with you all by having you go through this. How odd.

I'm thinking TWFing was a bad idea with this DM from the get-go, so watch out.

[Hazzardevil]

My explanation I mentioned earleir for why the Dervish//Swift hutner works is simple.
Dervish allows you to full attack then dance away. You can then move enough for skirmish.

Mind you now that I've though about it, it using sneak attack and hide in plain sight would be better.

[Rejakor]

Nope.

I have made a lot of melee dex based types.

Trust me, it doesn't actually work. Unless you're happy with one attack per round.

Dervish isn't much better, but at least you get to full attack while moving.

Without sudden leap or some such, and blink or some such, twf sucks donkey balls.

[Talya]

You know, without TOB, a gestalt Ranger/Scout//Fighter/Swashbuckler/Dervish would actually be a rather sweet melee character. Just use the feat that allows ranger and scout stacking for skirmish and favored enemy progression...and allows skirmish damage against favored enemies even if they're normally immune to precision damage.

[Rejakor]

Swift Hunters are really quite playable. Either the archery versions or the twf versions. Travel Devotion or the anklet of teleportation or any of the ways to get 10' 5' steps all work to get full attacks with skirmish.

Adding some fighter tricks to the build wouldn't be a bad use of gestalt. Dervish is an easy way to get skirmish, once it comes online, too bad dervish dance is hardcapped at 5/day.

[Darth Stabber]

There is always spirit lion totem barbarian (complete champion) for pounce. It only works on charges, but it works all day, and only burns one level as opposed to being a prc. Throw the whirling frenzy variant (UA and SRD) on top of that and you have an extra attack thrown into the mix from your one level dip. Combine with dervish dance and you have a pretty good blender (especially if you get more rages, though I doubt that will have enough feats for extra rage).

To summarize: if you are allowed to take variant class features, a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian is an amazing dip.

[Ravens_cry]

How about thug sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) one one side? Full BAB, which means you hit more and with more iterative attacks, d10 HD, so you can actually survive in mêlée and 4+ skill points? I haven't played one, but looking at it, it looks like a Swashbuckler in a can.

[Talya]

There is always spirit lion totem barbarian (complete champion) for pounce. It only works on charges, but it works all day, and only burns one level as opposed to being a prc. Throw the whirling frenzy variant (UA and SRD) on top of that and you have an extra attack thrown into the mix from your one level dip. Combine with dervish dance and you have a pretty good blender (especially if you get more rages, though I doubt that will have enough feats for extra rage).

To summarize: if you are allowed to take variant class features, a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian is an amazing dip.

Well, yeah...but...I have always really liked the Dervish, both thematically and mechanically. There does need to be an "Extra Dance of Death" feat, though.

[Darth Stabber]

How about thug sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) one one side? Full BAB, which means you hit more and with more iterative attacks, d10 HD, so you can actually survive in mêlée and 4+ skill points? I haven't played one, but looking at it, it looks like a Swashbuckler in a can.

Thug is a rough build normally. Without hide/move silently sneak attack becomes a bit of a todo, it is almost flanking + invisibility only, but if you pair off with a rogue (or another thug, or you are a dvati), you can really brutalize (PA + SA + iteratives + brilliant energy weapon is scary). If you are already in a stealthy class for the other side of you gestalt it becomes really workable.

Now I want to play a twf thug//soulknife (awefull yes, but could be fun).

[Darth Stabber]

Well, yeah...but...I have always really liked the Dervish, both thematically and mechanically. There does need to be an "Extra Dance of Death" feat, though.

I was not suggesting that you not take dervish. I was suggesting something that could helpful whether you took dervish or not. Pounce can help you conserve dances (since you are getting move+full attack out of it, and whirling frenzy is like a mini dance of death that you can access at lower levels (and I think it works while dancing). And it works thematically, as both dance and that rage variant are about working yourself into frenzy that makes you attack faster.

Also, you could probably talk your gm into letting you take "Extra Dance of Death", it is a logical extension of Extra Rage. As a note, extra rage grants you 2 more rages, so that is a decent baseline for homebrewing.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm actually curios what people might suggest for a TWF gestalt thAt does allow ToB?

[Cog]

Warblade/Factotum?

[KnightDisciple]

Warblade/Factotum?You know, I keep seeing "factotum" thrown around. I'm not terribly familiar with the class, and thus I don't know if this is a serious suggestion or not. :smallsigh:

[Essence_of_War]

Factotum is quite strong in gestalt.

Have a class? Want it to be better?
1) Gestalt with factotum
2) Profit
(Note: This method requires no "?????" and goes directly to "Profit")

Inspiration points let you grab extra standard actions, get useful bonuses, and leverage your intelligence score into doing all sorts of things better. Plus, if you get it all the way to 19th level, you get to steal everyone else's extraordinary class features. Along the way, you pick up some undead turning, and a smattering of useful spells. It's a hoot and a half.

[Darth Stabber]

You know, I keep seeing "factotum" thrown around. I'm not terribly familiar with the class, and thus I don't know if this is a serious suggestion or not. :smallsigh:

Between Warblade and Factotum you add int to nearly everything (throw in the keen intellect feat and even your will saves are based on int, along with a couple skills), you have 6+ skills, and every skill is class. Everything ToB manuevers don't do, you can patch with factotum spells and abilities.

Factotum itself is an amusing little class that makes the Jack-Of-All-Trades concept actually work. Fairly INT SAD (as much as a non-dedicated caster can be). The class is printed in Dungeonscape (coauthored by the Giant himself).

Mixed with Warblade (debatably the best ToB class), you have the ability to perform passingly well at any given task (via factotum), while being an amazing melee combatant.

[Rejakor]

Well, yeah...but...I have always really liked the Dervish, both thematically and mechanically. There does need to be an "Extra Dance of Death" feat, though.

Dance of Death just needs to be either per encounter or at will. It's not really such a strong ability that it actually needs to be per day, at all. It's equivalent to a 2nd level spell (Lion's Pounce), and the prestige class needs like 4 crappy feats to get into it.

[Talya]

Dance of Death just needs to be either per encounter or at will. It's not really such a strong ability that it actually needs to be per day, at all. It's equivalent to a 2nd level spell (Lion's Pounce), and the prestige class needs like 4 crappy feats to get into it.


If Lion's Charge (Ranger 2) granted an untyped +5 to hit and damage, then yes, it really would be equivalent.

If you compressed all of a Dervish's abilities into 3 levels instead of 10, it would be quite a fun PrC. As it stands, it's too much invested for too little payoff.

(As for the prerequisites, Dodge can be replaced by Expeditious Dodge, which is actually not bad for a dervish. If I had the spare feats, though, I'd keep regular dodge so I could use Elusive Target [Tactical] - which is a nice feat if you already have to have the prerequisites. Mobility isn't terrible for any class that dances around provoking that many AOOs, either. Weapon Focus is the one requirement i'd most like to see removed from the dervish prerequisites - combat expertise is actually a good gateway for a dervish who wants to trip half the people on battlefield on one turn.)

[Rejakor]

If you can't hit reliably hit the tumble DC to move at full speed, at that level, then you're doing something a bit silly.


untyped +5 to hit and damage, then yes, it really would be equivalent.

Alright, a 2nd level spell and a 1st level spell (Improvisation), then.

Elusive Target is nice, if it applies to everyone and not just your dodge target. Expeditious Dodge isn't worth the feat slot, but better than Dodge. Mobility again blech.

EDIT: Combat Expertise is pretty much only used to grab improved trip. I hate feats like that. Seriously, non-fighters get like 7 feats from level 1 to level 20. And you're going to make people waste one of those feats on a pre-req feat they're likely not going to use? Eurgh.

[KnightDisciple]

Between Warblade and Factotum you add int to nearly everything (throw in the keen intellect feat and even your will saves are based on int, along with a couple skills), you have 6+ skills, and every skill is class. Everything ToB manuevers don't do, you can patch with factotum spells and abilities.

Factotum itself is an amusing little class that makes the Jack-Of-All-Trades concept actually work. Fairly INT SAD (as much as a non-dedicated caster can be). The class is printed in Dungeonscape (coauthored by the Giant himself).

Mixed with Warblade (debatably the best ToB class), you have the ability to perform passingly well at any given task (via factotum), while being an amazing melee combatant.Sounds interesting, but also like a lot of book-keeping. :smalltongue:

Any suggestions for a build that's a bit more focused on kicking butt with two weapons? Still with the gestalt and ToB (if applicable). I'm open to involving more than 2 classes in the build, but I'm not a huge fan of having a half-dozen on each side, either. :smallwink:

[Philistine]

How about Scout5/Ranger15//Barbarian2/Warblade18?
Swift Hunter + Pounce + ...
Well, plus whatever else you want, really. Charger feats won't do as much for you as they would for a THWer, but you could still go that route - or you could stop at Swift Hunter and use the rest of your feats to boost other abilities. And you get the basic TWF feats automagically, without having to pump your Dex to absurd (and absurdly expensive) levels. For maneuvers, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven all have stuff that will work out very nicely indeed for a build like this.

Optionally, to keep bookkeeping down you could go for the CChamp Ranger ACF that trades away spellcasting for additional bonus feats. You might also want to trade away the Ranger animal companion, which at its most powerful would be equivalent to the companion a Druid gets at level 7.