Daylight

[Lord.Sorasen]

So, daylight is a third level spell. I want to make my post fuller but I can't figure out how...

Daylight, why is it third level? It doesn't really seem to be useful. Help me cure my ignorance!

[Rei_Jin]

It's a situational and RP spell. Very handy in the Underdark and especially against things like Spectres, Wraiths and Drow. If you were in an Underdark campaign, you'd be as likely to prepare it as Fireball, I'd think.

[Luckmann]

Dispelling Darkness, give penalties to light-sensitive creatures (Drow, Duergar, etc), or just plain light (turn that sword into your hand into a drow/duergar/etc-penalizing torch).

I've never played and even I could figure that one out. :p

[holywhippet]

It's a situational and RP spell. Very handy in the Underdark and especially against things like Spectres, Wraiths and Drow. If you were in an Underdark campaign, you'd be as likely to prepare it as Fireball, I'd think.

You only got 1 out of 3 correct - spectres and wraiths are specifically not affected by the daylight spell.

It would be useful if you were in a battlefield situation (ie. around lots of troops) and wanted to light things up.

For the most part though, it's a niche spell - you won't use it often and while it might be justified as a third level spell compared to the basic light spell, it's not entirely worth a spell slot.

[Rei_Jin]

Just because they aren't actually affected by it, doesn't mean that they KNOW they aren't affected by it. They don't have Spellcraft, and all they'd see was a massive bright light go on. With their level of intelligence, they'd likely try and stay away from it.

[bloodtide]

Daylight makes bright light in 60 feet for a couple hours(50-60 minutes at the minimum caster level). That has a bit of power too it for effect and duration. Plus it's bright enough to hard folks that don't like bright light. And it negates or dispells darkness. All those effects together make it right about at 3rd level of power.

[holywhippet]

Just because they aren't actually affected by it, doesn't mean that they KNOW they aren't affected by it. They don't have Spellcraft, and all they'd see was a massive bright light go on. With their level of intelligence, they'd likely try and stay away from it.

That's like saying a zombie should stay away from someone because they don't like the looks of the shotgun they are holding.

Undead are immune to all mind-affecting effects - including morale. They aren't scared of anything and caution is an unknown concept to non-intelligent creatures like that. Something smart like a vampire might be cautious if they weren't sure what spell had been cast and weren't sure about approaching it. If they were in range when it was cast they'd know it can't hurt them.

[Rei_Jin]

Spectres and Wraiths both have 14 Intelligence. It specifically says in their entries in the Monster Manual that they will flee bright light.

Zombies have no intelligence. They simply seek to saite their hunger, or do what their creator tells them to... they have no concept of danger due to their lack of intelligence.

[holywhippet]

From the SRD spectre entry:


Sunlight Powerlessness (Ex)

Spectres are powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it. A spectre caught in sunlight cannot attack and can take only a single move action or standard action in a round.


From the SRD wraith entry:


Daylight Powerlessness (Ex)

Wraiths are utterly powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it.


They flee from natural sunlight, not merely any bright light.

[Rei_Jin]

I'm aware of the rules, I'm talking about roleplay. Wraiths and Spectres can't identify what spells are, and they have no idea about the effect that they have unless they can see it.

If you were a creature that couldn't identify magic, but you knew that bright light (ie, sunlight) hurt you, and someone turned your nice darkened cave into an area as bright as daylight, would you risk being destroyed/left powerless, or would you err on the side of caution so that you don't get destroyed?

14 Intelligence means that you're smart enough to know that sunlight = bad if you've encountered it before. If you've encountered spellcasters before, you would also know that unless they're on your side, they tend to try and hurt you. If you are a Spectre or Wraith that has never encountered sunlight or spellcasters, then sure, I can see how they would ignore a Daylight spell, but that would be a pretty rare thing.

[LOTRfan]

How do you know that all wraiths and spectres don't know what spells are? That seems like a silly assumption. :smallconfused:

[Bhaakon]

If you were a creature that couldn't identify magic, but you knew that bright light (ie, sunlight) hurt you, and someone turned your nice darkened cave into an area as bright as daylight, would you risk being destroyed/left powerless, or would you err on the side of caution so that you don't get destroyed?

Considering that the speed of light easily exceeds the speed of thought, a spectre or wraith would probably realize that it wasn't actual daylight before it even had time to think that it might be. The whole "not hurt/powerless/utterly destroyed" thing is a pretty big hint.

[Seth62]

If Cast on a weapon or anything at all it is magic for the purpose of damage reduction.

[tyckspoon]

If Cast on a weapon or anything at all it is magic for the purpose of damage reduction.

Although this would be a somewhat useful function (despite being entirely obsoleted for the same purpose by Greater Magic Weapon), it's not true. A magic weapon for purposes of DR is defined very simply: it has at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage. Simply casting a spell on an object does not make it a magic weapon.

[ILM]

I'm aware of the rules, I'm talking about roleplay. Wraiths and Spectres can't identify what spells are, and they have no idea about the effect that they have unless they can see it.

If you were a creature that couldn't identify magic, but you knew that bright light (ie, sunlight) hurt you, and someone turned your nice darkened cave into an area as bright as daylight, would you risk being destroyed/left powerless, or would you err on the side of caution so that you don't get destroyed?

14 Intelligence means that you're smart enough to know that sunlight = bad if you've encountered it before.
It does mean that you're smart enough to know that bright light inside a cave is unlikely to be sunlight, especially if it appeared after some squishy old dude muttered a few words and made a few handwaves. It also means you're smart enough to know that at the very worst, if after one round the mysterious light didn't have any detrimental effect on you, it's not daylight. 14 int is smarter than the average human, and I'm pretty sure that if you put me in a cave/ enclosed dark space/ outside at night and shone a bright light, I wouldn't go "oh hey, here's the sun!"

[Pigkappa]

If you know the sunlight can kill you in a few rounds, you'd likely stay away from this strange source of light even if it hasn't harmed you in the first few seconds.

[tyckspoon]

If you know the sunlight can kill you in a few rounds, you'd likely stay away from this strange source of light even if it hasn't harmed you in the first few seconds.

And that would be fine if there were any undead that actually reacted to sunlight in a delayed fashion like that.. but all the ones I know have an immediate reaction. Spectres and Wraiths are stricken powerless. Vampires start taking damage. These things happen as soon as the light hits them- if it doesn't happen, they know it's not real sunlight, it's just illumination. Which may annoy them enough to go hit the guy who created it, but won't hurt them.

[ericgrau]

It lasts 10 minutes per level, is a good way to burn spell slots outside of combat and can be carried, temporarily suppressed, and quickly retrieved on a handheld object. At level 5 I would not take it over a fireball nor haste. At level 15 I would easily take it over a fireball or haste. A lot of spells are this way.

A criticism I sometimes give of some spell lists is that they have all the nice gems but there are 37 general purpose combat spells. You'll never use 37 general purpose combat spells. Your lower level spell slots should go to other things.

[Alleran]

And that would be fine if there were any undead that actually reacted to sunlight in a delayed fashion like that.. but all the ones I know have an immediate reaction. Spectres and Wraiths are stricken powerless. Vampires start taking damage. These things happen as soon as the light hits them- if it doesn't happen, they know it's not real sunlight, it's just illumination. Which may annoy them enough to go hit the guy who created it, but won't hurt them.
Vampires don't take damage per se. They get a single move action that round, and if they're not out of the sunlight after using it, then they're destroyed. No save, just die.

[Luckmann]

Ah, this threads reminds me of the good old days of Baldur's Gate 2, Sunray & False Dawn in hand.

[ericgrau]

Vampires don't take damage per se. They get a single move action that round, and if they're not out of the sunlight after using it, then they're destroyed. No save, just die.

Even if it doesn't say so specifically come on it has to know if it's real. If not from the pain of imminent death then from the inability to take a standard action.

[Alleran]

Even if it doesn't say so specifically come on it has to know if it's real. If not from the pain of imminent death then from the inability to take a standard action.
They should know. I'm saying they don't take damage. It's a get-out-of-the-sun-or-you-just-die thing.