Optimizing Mace + Shield Paladin

[ArcanistSupreme]

I will soon be playing/DMing an E6 campaign, and one of my friends has his heart set on playing a Paladin (PF version) that wields a mace and shield. It's going to be a semi-high optimization game, and I know all about pumping THF damage through the roof, but my Op-Fu is a little weak when it comes to sword-and-boarding. So before I run off to the Homebrew forum to make something that can compete with a THF build in combat, does anyone have any build suggestions or ideas? What about weapons I could steal the stats from and refluff as a mace (he's willing to burn a feat on EWP, but only on a weapon comparable in power to a spiked chain)?

All 3.5 sources except Dragon Magazine are viable, as is anything in the Pathfinder SRD or on the E6 rules site.

[Knaight]

Using Paladin instead of Crusader makes this a bit difficult, but E6 being E6 there are ways around that. Burning a feat on a one handed exotic weapon for a bit of damage is probably a mistake, taking Martial Study and Martial Stance to pick up some decent Crusader abilities would be a much better use of feats, with the stance of particular importance.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Using Paladin instead of Crusader makes this a bit difficult, but E6 being E6 there are ways around that. Burning a feat on a one handed exotic weapon for a bit of damage is probably a mistake, taking Martial Study and Martial Stance to pick up some decent Crusader abilities would be a much better use of feats, with the stance of particular importance.

On top of this there is the Warmace; hand-and-a-half weapon that deals 1d12 with a -1 to AC. If your player doesn't care too much about hit, a tower-shield is always a nice addition to a Paladin.
There was a thread created by one of the more popular threaders here (who's name now escapes me) with an excellent sword-and-board build. If I find it I'll post it here, if it get's posted here anyway then all the better.

[Cog]

Actually, getting an exotic weapon might be good in this case. A single level of Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow ability lets you treat a 1H exotic weapon as 2H for power attack returns even when only held in a single hand. The maul, also from Complete Warrior, is basically a bludgeoning bastard sword, so it'd work for that; other 1H bludgeoning exotics are the flindbar, tigerskull club, and warmace. Those are all grabbed off a list elsewhere, so double-check them; most are more interesting than the maul, and while not quite as good as the chain, Uncanny Blow makes up for it.
Hm. Only after I wrote all that up did I notice the E6 tag. Ah, well, the weapon list might still be a start for you.

[true_shinken]

Just use PersonMan's guide to shields. If he can get someone to caster (Greater) Mighty Wallop on his weapons, all the better.
Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Daze. Pretty good.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Just use PersonMan's guide to shields. If he can get someone to caster (Greater) Mighty Wallop on his weapons, all the better.
Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Daze. Pretty good.

That's the one! Personman! link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) Ya, his guy is super helpful when you're stuck in an optimizing situation.

[riddles]

You have an abundance of feats in e6 so going the shield fighting route is good.- agile shield fighter, shield slam, shield daze etc.

Also look at the divine feats - divine might and divine shield being useful (though I personally think divine shield should be a swift action).

Additionally, you only need 4 levels of paladin, which gets you save boosts and turn undead. For levels 5 and 6, take crusader for a 1st level stance (the healing one is useful) and whatever 1st and 2nd level manuveurs you want (shield actually worth taking). If you hold off on getting power attack until 6th, you can instead take stone power which is a very good feat for staying power. Given that PA has limited use for the sword and board fighter, stone power might be a better choice.

Buy the wizard some perals of power for greater mighty wallop on your weapons every day and you're set.

[Big Fau]

All 3.5 sources except Dragon Magazine are viable, as is anything in the Pathfinder SRD or on the E6 rules site.

I know this is a poor first-post, but I just have to point out how ironic that source list is.

[Jude_H]

Which version of Power Attack are you using?

The Three Mountains feat from is pretty excellent. If you whack something twice with a club, it has to save v. your strength or be nauseated.

Brutal Strike from the PHB2 is similar, but only requires one hit, has easier prerequisites & a lower DC and only causes shaken.

Both the Complete Warrior and PHB2 shield feats are pretty good, as is the PF's Shield Slam.

It is just silly how good the Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/antagonize) feat is. It's from PF's Ultimate Magic.

ETA: ^ Nice.

[Leon]

Whatever weapon you end up with make sure to have some ranks in UMD and have a Wand sheath inbuilt to the weapon with a Mighty Wallop wand.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Using Paladin instead of Crusader makes this a bit difficult, but E6 being E6 there are ways around that. Burning a feat on a one handed exotic weapon for a bit of damage is probably a mistake, taking Martial Study and Martial Stance to pick up some decent Crusader abilities would be a much better use of feats, with the stance of particular importance.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I'll direct him toward ToB for some choice maneuvers.


On top of this there is the Warmace; hand-and-a-half weapon that deals 1d12 with a -1 to AC. If your player doesn't care too much about hit, a tower-shield is always a nice addition to a Paladin.

He might be interested. Do you have a source?


Actually, getting an exotic weapon might be good in this case. A single level of Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow ability lets you treat a 1H exotic weapon as 2H for power attack returns even when only held in a single hand. The maul, also from Complete Warrior, is basically a bludgeoning bastard sword, so it'd work for that; other 1H bludgeoning exotics are the flindbar, tigerskull club, and warmace. Those are all grabbed off a list elsewhere, so double-check them; most are more interesting than the maul, and while not quite as good as the chain, Uncanny Blow makes up for it.

Yeah, a level of Exotic Weapon Master might be a better capstone for him than a last Paladin level, as he's not super excited about the Mercy class feature.


Which version of Power Attack are you using?

The Three Mountains feat from is pretty excellent. If you whack something twice with a club, it has to save v. your strength or be nauseated.

Brutal Strike from the PHB2 is similar, but only requires one hit, has easier prerequisites & a lower DC and only causes shaken.

Both the Complete Warrior and PHB2 shield feats are pretty good, as is the PF's Shield Slam.

It is just silly how good the Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/antagonize) feat is. It's from PF's Ultimate Magic.

I think I'll be using PF PA, just to discourage the sort of rocket tag that feat encourages otherwise. Brutal Strike looks good, but I think he's pretty set on using a mace and not a club, so Three Mountain Strike is out.

I don't think I will be allowing Antagonize if I DM unless some errata comes out in the next week or so.


You have an abundance of feats in e6 so going the shield fighting route is good.- agile shield fighter, shield slam, shield daze etc.

Also look at the divine feats - divine might and divine shield being useful (though I personally think divine shield should be a swift action).

Additionally, you only need 4 levels of paladin, which gets you save boosts and turn undead. For levels 5 and 6, take crusader for a 1st level stance (the healing one is useful) and whatever 1st and 2nd level manuveurs you want (shield actually worth taking). If you hold off on getting power attack until 6th, you can instead take stone power which is a very good feat for staying power. Given that PA has limited use for the sword and board fighter, stone power might be a better choice.

Buy the wizard some perals of power for greater mighty wallop on your weapons every day and you're set.

Again, I think a level in something beside Paladin may interest him for his last level, so this is good stuff. Divine Shield + feats that add shield bonus to everything = awesome.


Just use PersonMan's guide to shields. If he can get someone to caster (Greater) Mighty Wallop on his weapons, all the better.
Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Daze. Pretty good.

Good stuff. I forget, is (Greater) Mighty Wallop in SpC?


One more question for everyone: Are there any good Paladin ACFs or archetypes that we should look at?

[Quietus]

Yeah, a level of Exotic Weapon Master might be a better capstone for him than a last Paladin level, as he's not super excited about the Mercy class feature.

It would, if it didn't require BAB+6. If you're the DM or can convince the DM to allow it at BAB+5, though, then with a one-handed exotic weapon, you could go for either flurry of strikes (flurry of blows with that weapon), or Uncanny Blow (treat a one-handed exotic weapon as two-handed for purposes of strength bonus to damage and power attack)

[Thespianus]

Good stuff. I forget, is (Greater) Mighty Wallop in SpC?
No, Races of the Dragon.

[Essence_of_War]

but I think he's pretty set on using a mace and not a club, so Three Mountain Strike is out.

From CW (on 3 Mtns Style):

If you strike the same creature twice in the same round with your heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub...

It's fair game for user of a heavy mace in 1-hand w/ shield.

[ArcanistSupreme]

It would, if it didn't require BAB+6. If you're the DM or can convince the DM to allow it at BAB+5, though, then with a one-handed exotic weapon, you could go for either flurry of strikes (flurry of blows with that weapon), or Uncanny Blow (treat a one-handed exotic weapon as two-handed for purposes of strength bonus to damage and power attack)

Oh, bummer. Maybe. I'm sure it wouldn't be game-breaking.


No, Races of the Dragon.

Thanks.


From CW (on 3 Mtns Style):


It's fair game for user of a heavy mace in 1-hand w/ shield.

Right. :smallredface: I might try reading things next time.

[Essence_of_War]

Right. :smallredface: I might try reading things next time.

Heh heh. I only press the point because it is a strong option if you can swing the feats and you're interested in using one of the relevant weapons.

[Keld Denar]

With Divine Might available to provide +Cha to damage, getting more attacks in a full attack is advantageous. Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) gives you an offhand attack with your shield without the bulk that is TWFing. Might be worthwhile to look into if you go that route. Also, assuming you don't spike your shield, it is a legal target for GMWallop, if thats a goal.

[Essence_of_War]

Also, check out the Complete Champion. Many of the devotion feats scale with level in a way you won't be able to take advantage of, but many of them are great right out of the box.

Some saucy looking things off-hand:
1) Travel Devotion - you'll be full attacking more often!
2) Earth Devotion - Essentially gives you the Knight's Bulwark of Defense class feature. Those folks you're smacking with 3mtns style will not enjoy this.

[Greenish]

Since e6 has feats to go around, and PF paladin has nice Cha synergy, Shield Ward & Divine Shield would be a great pair (if you allow that PF thingy that replaced Turning to also work on Divine feats).

Other than that, Agile Shield Fighter is pretty good, since Smite has some synergy with TWF.