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Fineous Orlon
2011-05-24, 02:02 PM
I want to approach rebalancing 3.5 in such a way as to minimize argument and avoid detail dithering.

I would like to try "One Sentence Fixes" on base classes. The largest thrust of the balancing would be raising tier 3 and below some, while lowering tier 1 some, and tier 2 a bit.

Tier system link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

I would like the change to any base class to at least make it tempting to try the class. Without knowing the dynamics of our group, you cannot really know what would be tempting to us, so 'a noticeable improvement' might also work.

The idea is to give lower tiers, especially melee, nicer things, simply, while nerfing the upper tiers, without gutting them, also simply.

One last point: I would rather close the gap between ToB classes and other non-caster base classes by improving the other non-caster base classes for the most part.

Examples follow:

Fineous Orlon
2011-05-24, 02:03 PM
Reserved for really helpful ideas:

Fineous Orlon
2011-05-24, 02:05 PM
Some examples with a bit of potential:

The Monk gets full BAB.

I realize that this may not fix the Monk, but it addresses a major flaw, and may make the monk attractive enough for someone to give it a shot.

A less polished version for the Paladin might address MAD and melee and say something like: "Charisma powers casting and Paladin gets 1 smite per class level per day."

A Ranger version might include Archivist Dark Knowledge powers as part of favored enemy [up to a certain point, like ~10th level Archivist].

Tier 1 nerfs might include: "the feat 'Natural Spell' does not exist, take still and silent spell and eschew materials as needed."

... or "Divine Metamagic does not exist."

... or "Full casters use bardic spell progression as far as casting is concerned."

... or [continuing tier 1 beatdown] "no quicken spell."

So, in other words, the idea should be concise, and needs to be 'positive spin enabled' to make it easy to sell or discuss at the table.

ShiningStarling
2011-05-24, 02:23 PM
I like this idea, complex fixes are hard to sell.
How about: "Warmages get Cha edge and all arcane evocation spells."
or possibly: "Rogues get Dex to damage."
Good concept, I'll keep thinking.

HalfDragonCube
2011-05-24, 04:35 PM
Monks get laserbeams from their eyes as a free action.

Commoners get no limit on the number of flaws they can take.

Dunno.

jasonguppy
2011-05-24, 05:20 PM
Sorcerors get more powerful familiars.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-24, 05:26 PM
Fighters can make a full attack as a standard action, and double their number of attacks on a full attack, taking one extra at their full attack bonus for the main attack, and taking one extra for each iterative attack at the appropriate penalty for the iterative attacks.

jasonguppy
2011-05-24, 05:28 PM
Clerics get layonhands if good, injurous touch if evil, and celestial/fiendish companion and Favored Soul casting.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-24, 05:31 PM
Clerics get layonhands if good, injurous touch if evil, and celestial/fiendish companion and Favored Soul casting.

That makes clerics even more powerful! That's what we want to avoid!

Zaydos
2011-05-24, 05:35 PM
Wizards may only know 8 spells of each level above 1st well enough to write them in a spellbook or memorize them.

Bringing back a hard cap to wizard spells known like in 2e.

Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Samurai, Swashbucklers, and Knights may make a full attack as a standard action starting at 6th level for fighters and 8th level for everyone else.

Again warriors (Fighter, Rangers, and Paladins) in 2e could move and still make multiple attacks; and 3e monsters seem balanced with the idea that you get a full attack more than half the time anyway (doubling attacks per round, though, is a bad idea as monsters aren't built to handle that output; look at Time Stands Still and think about why it's considered and aweseome ability).

Clerics must spend a feat for turn undead.

Wizards don't get bonus feats (including no Scribe Scrolls).

Wizards don't get familiars.

Fisticuffs
2011-05-24, 05:53 PM
Monks get Flurry of Blows as a standard action and unarmed damage continues to go up after 20 and all bonuses to it stack.
Rogues get Barbarian Fast Movement and +2 Initiative at some point.
Pallies gets full Cha casting and get AC exalted bonus against undead and Evil outsiders.
Ranger's Animal Companion is Druid -4 levels instead of 1/2 level and if you took the TWF tree your second weapon gets any bonuses and properties that your first weapon has and not take a full round to do.
Fighters get a feat EVERY level after 10th level.

Should I throw out some for the non core classes?

EDIT: Scrap ALL metamagic feats!

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-24, 05:53 PM
Sorcerers get bonus metamagic feats.

Wizards don't; they are limited to item creation.

Paladins can turn Outsiders whose alignment is opposite theirs on at least one scale (a Lawful Good Paladin can turn all Outsiders that are either Evil, Chaotic, or both).

Paladins apply their CHA bonus and level to both attack and damage rolls

-OR-

Paladins get Smite Evil once per encounter as opposed to once per day (scaling up as usual).

Fineous Orlon
2011-05-24, 06:01 PM
Wizards may only know 8 spells of each level above 1st well enough to write them in a spellbook or memorize them.

Bringing back a hard cap to wizard spells known like in 2e.

Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Knights may make a full attack as a standard action starting at 6th level for fighters and 8th level for everyone else.

Again warriors (Fighter, Rangers, and Paladins) in 2e could move and still make multiple attacks;

That is an interesting look at things. A more 2Ed feel with solid 3Ed rules support may do a lot of what I am looking for.

The move plus full attack may almost be necessary to this idea [of elevating fighter classes/tiers], as, of course, full attack could be seen as one of the fighter's highest level spells.

So either casters cannot move more than 5' and cast, or fighter types can move and full attack.

Maybe put Samurai in that list as well. Love Toshiro Mifune, hate 3.5 Samurai.


Clerics must spend a feat for turn undead.

Wizards don't get bonus feats (including no Scribe Scrolls).

Wizards don't get familiars.

Fertile ground.

Zaydos
2011-05-24, 06:06 PM
Maybe put Samurai in that list as well. Love Toshiro Mifune, hate 3.5 Samurai.

I forgot the class existed... I just use Warblades for my samurais. Iron Heart + Tiger Claw dual-wielding and a little Diamond Mind = Miyamoto Musashi.

Should add Swashbucklers, though.

Fisticuffs
2011-05-24, 06:28 PM
Should add Swashbucklers, though.

Grace should also add competence bonus to AC. Dodge should start at 4th or be a bigger bonus and at higher levels should be splitable. Dex for some Str skills?

Samurai should get the same things my TWF Ranger should get also it should treat its two weapons as light. Its Iaijutsu Master should start out as both feats and should do something the first time he strikes each encounter. His Staredown abilities need to make it a free action at some point. Frightful Presence needs to be bumped down afew levels and affect opponents that matter. Rend would be nice. As a level cap it should be able to do something ridiculous do demoralized, shaken, frightened, or panicked foes.

Merk
2011-05-24, 06:32 PM
Paladins: Pathfinder paladins with more skill points.

Seerow
2011-05-24, 06:34 PM
EDIT: Scrap ALL metamagic feats!


This basically kills the blaster wizard, forcing wizards to focus on the more powerful effects they have their disposal.

I could see eliminating some of the major offenders, no fell drain, no quicken spell, no persist spell, and maybe some of the stronger damage boosters (such as twin spell or energy admixture), but eliminating them all simply tells the caster "Don't bother doing damage, go do awesome things instead"

Fisticuffs
2011-05-24, 06:40 PM
This basically kills the blaster wizard, forcing wizards to focus on the more powerful effects they have their disposal.

I could see eliminating some of the major offenders, no fell drain, no quicken spell, no persist spell, and maybe some of the stronger damage boosters (such as twin spell or energy admixture), but eliminating them all simply tells the caster "Don't bother doing damage, go do awesome things instead"

Sounds more like a "more powerful effects" problem to me.

Seerow
2011-05-24, 06:51 PM
Sounds more like a "more powerful effects" problem to me.

Well tell me, would you rather have the wizard blasting and dealing competent but not overpowering damage... or have the wizard winning encounters in a single turn with save or sucks?

My point is that for the most part, damage is the weakest choice a caster can choose to specialize in. Taking away metamagics means they can no longer specialize in that, so taking away all metamagic effects actually makes Wizards stronger by taking away their weakest option.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-24, 06:52 PM
How about: "Warmages get Cha edge and all arcane evocation spells."

All arcane evocations would probably be a bit much. From a power standpoint, adding 20-25 new spells to the warmage list from the PHB alone before we even think about SpC, PHB2, etc., all castable spontaneously, would make many offense-focused arcane builds almost completely obsolete. From a logistics standpoint, managing that spell list would be a nightmare. Also, "moar blasting" is not the solution to the warmage problem, rather the warmage needs more warlike spells that aren't just damage spells; communication, summoning, battlefield control, and similar spells are needed if you want to be a war mage and not just a walking artillery piece. So instead, my warmage fix would be:

"Warmage Edge is Cha-based; at each warmage level, a warmage gets Advanced Learning, for any desired arcane evocation or conjuration (summoning or creation) spell."

That gives the warmage access to some summoning, some more control (e.g. better walls and solid fog), some transportation and defense (e.g. phantom steed and Leomund's secure shelter), and so forth without going overboard.



Some other fixes, off the top of my head, along with rationales:

"If you have a BAB better than 3/4 character level, you can full attack as a standard action."
Any combat-focused character should be able to do this, but you shouldn't be able to get it with just a dip as a lower-BAB character and conversely you shouldn't penalize martial characters for dips into non-full-BAB classes; this lets martial fighters retain the ability even if they lose a few BAB, lets 3/4 BAB combat characters pick it up if they have at least a 1:4 full BAB:medium BAB class ratio, and doesn't give it with a fighter dip.

"Flurry of Blows is identical in effect to, and stacks with, Snap Kick; monks have full BAB."
Flurry of blows is now usable on all attacks, does not restrict movement, and is much simpler logistically.

"Paladins choose either Wis or Cha and use that for everything, and have smites per-encounter rather than per-day."
"Spontaneous casters gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat and don't increase casting time for metamagicked spells."
"All druids are now shapeshift druids."
All common and simple fixes.

"Anything that reduces metamagic costs, in any form, no longer exists."
Metamagic isn't overpowered at all; in fact, except in a very few cases, it's almost never worth it to add 3 spell levels for maximum damage with Maximize or cast a level X-4 spell twice with Twin instead of casting a level X spell--and in those few cases, either you're simply increasing damage (which is fine, as it makes blasting more useful) or it's the overpowered and under-leveled spells like shivering touch and celerity that cause problems, not metamagic.

"Swashbucklers, monks, and paladins add their key ability (Int, Wis, or Cha, respectively) as an insight bonus to anything keyed off Str and Dex except carrying capacity, to a maximum of their level in the corresponding class."
This gives swashbucklers Int to AC without having to go into Duelist, gives paladins a bit more tankiness, helps with all three classes' MADness, and helps them really pack a punch at mid levels and up.

"There is no such thing as 'precision damage' or 'immune to critical hits' anymore; oozes and oozelike/fluidlike creatures gain the Amorphous special quality."
Crit-immunity and creatures being un-sneak-attack-able doesn't make much sense in many cases. The roper, a glorified stalagmite, is vulnerable to crits, but you can't get in a particularly hard blow on an earth elemental, which is essentially the same thing? You can get in a nice skull-smashing crit on a humanoid, but smashing the skull of an animated frikkin' skeleton, when you don't have to go through all those layers of skin, does nothing special? All crit immunity does is force rogues to pick up ACFs and wands of various spells to overcome it, screw over Sudden Strike/Skirmish/Manyshot/falchion/etc. users unnecessarily, and remove what little excitement surrounding crits there is. If you really, truly are nothing more than a blob, you can have Amorphous to make you immune to crits, but it shouldn't be type based at all.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-24, 09:40 PM
Hm, let's see...

Monks can use a full attack or flurry as a standard action.

Paladins have their spells based off charisma, or their divine grace based off wisdom, either one.

Fighters get some feat changes: whirlwind attack can be used as a standard action, cleave and great cleave simply need to hit the target to be triggered, not kill him, and combat expertise doesn't cap at 5.

Bards gain 8+int skill ranks per level, x4 at first level, and 5 ranks in knowledge (local) or gather information gives a +2 synergy bonus on Bardic Knowledge, same as knowledge (history).

Rogues are Pathfinder rogues.

Rangers are Pathfinder rangers.

NineThePuma
2011-05-24, 09:56 PM
Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.

Rangers and Paladins can cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, and have caster level = Class level -3.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-24, 10:16 PM
Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.

Just checking, but you do realize that's going to be very close to dc 10 for the most part and you're counting their stat twice? Also, I'm not sure how good an idea checks are: to low and they're just a waste of time, to high and you start running into truenamers.

NineThePuma
2011-05-24, 10:19 PM
Oh, I'm well aware. I just like making being a caster so damn annoying that you toss it away x3

T.G. Oskar
2011-05-24, 10:37 PM
Limited to one sentence, you say? Hmm...that'll be tough. I love describing...

In any case:

Paladins' smites are per encounter instead of daily, they get full CL and they replace Remove Disease for a wide selection of bonus feats

The first is a basic move; the wider version would be "Paladins get smites per encounter, which are made as part of an attack action but only once per round". That makes Smites much more useful as they can be used as part of an attack of opportunity or as part of a full action, offering a boost on attack and damage rolls.

The second is also basic. They get some good spells that could use better CL, so let's give it to them. Why not?

The final is because Remove Disease is a pisspoor ability that could be easily transplanted into their spells with little loss, but they definitely need bonus feats to complement their fighting style. With Fighter Bonus Feats, Divine Feats, Domain Feats and probably Exalted Feats you can cover the quota pretty easily.

Thrawn183
2011-05-25, 12:15 AM
The Healer casts spontaneously and knows all the spells on its spell list.

No metamagic reducers (Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Divine Metamagic).

No breaking the action economy (Quicken Spell, Time Stop, Belt of Battle, etc.)

Siosilvar
2011-05-25, 10:17 AM
Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.A first-level wizard with int 16 has +7 (4 ranks, +3 int) vs. DC 8 (10 + 1st level - 3 int), and so cannot fail.

A first-level sorcerer who wants to replicate the same needs to take Skill Focus (Spellcraft), as does the cleric.

That's not annoying, that's completely irrelevant. Not to mention that skills rise twice as high with level as spell levels do; maxing skill ranks, keeping a minimum ability score to cast the highest-level spells, and avoiding anything else that may boost your skill check means you auto-pass at 8th level, assuming an Int bonus of 0. (Wizards have it better: DC 12 at 6th level is matched by a +11 check.)

EDIT: Things I like from this thread so far.

Flurry of Blows is identical in effect to, and stacks with, Snap Kick; monks have full BAB.

Paladins choose either Wis or Cha and use that for everything, and have smites per-encounter rather than per-day.

Spontaneous casters gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat and don't increase casting time for metamagicked spells.

All druids are now shapeshift druids.

There is no such thing as 'precision damage' or 'immune to critical hits' anymore; oozes and oozelike/fluidlike creatures gain the Amorphous special quality.The last one with some modifications.


Rangers and Paladins can cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, and have caster level = Class level -3.



The Monk gets full BAB.

A Ranger version might include Archivist Dark Knowledge powers as part of favored enemy [up to a certain point, like ~10th level Archivist].

the feat 'Natural Spell' does not exist, take still and silent spell and eschew materials as needed.

Full casters use bardic spell progression as far as casting is concerned.

Also:

Nightsticks do not stack.
All metamagic reducers apply once per spell, maximum.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-25, 01:02 PM
I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

Seerow
2011-05-25, 01:03 PM
I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

They'd still have better spell lists.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-25, 01:11 PM
I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

As Seerow said, they still have better spells. Teleportation, polymorphing, mind control, etc. are still amazing if you get them a few levels later. You can still play a god wizard or CoDzilla with only 6th level spells, but stretching spell levels out balances things by making it easier on the DM (no need to worry about 7th+ level spells) and slows the power creep (you get flying, invisibility, and other game-changers later, so the rapid power curve is flattened a bit for everyone), so it's a much easier fix than nerfing or banning individual spells while still providing wide-ranging balance improvements.

Haldir
2011-05-25, 01:24 PM
Static bonuses from feats such as Dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization now scale with level when taken as Fighter Bonus Feats.

Fineous Orlon
2011-05-25, 01:25 PM
As Seerow said, they still have better spells. Teleportation, polymorphing, mind control, etc. are still amazing if you get them a few levels later. You can still play a god wizard or CoDzilla with only 6th level spells, but stretching spell levels out balances things by making it easier on the DM (no need to worry about 7th+ level spells) and slows the power creep (you get flying, invisibility, and other game-changers later, so the rapid power curve is flattened a bit for everyone), so it's a much easier fix than nerfing or banning individual spells while still providing wide-ranging balance improvements.

What PoDL said. Essentially, I would hope it 'flattens' the tiers.

This is a serious tier 1 and 2 nerfbat, so comments are really appreciated.

Haven't had time to compile yet.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-25, 01:36 PM
This is a serious tier 1 and 2 nerfbat, so comments are really appreciated.

It works pretty well; I've run two campaigns using something similar to this and my players liked it well enough. The one thing to watch out for is that a lot of the higher-level countermeasures are gone (like mind blank and foresight, so BBEGs are a bit more vulnerable to things like scry-and-die and mind control; since PCs are more vulnerable to those as well, though, it's not too much of a problem, just something to keep in mind.

Hazzardevil
2011-05-25, 01:46 PM
Heres one for Samurai.
SAmurai get a competence bonus qual to 1/2 their BAb, gain TWo weapon fighting feats as a ranger of their level and their Intimidation range is equal to their samurai leve/2 X5ft.

Ranger:
They get a whole new method of knowing spells.
They get a number of spells known for each level equal to their ranks in knowledge nature, this list is anything off the ranger or druid list. Bard spells progression and can also convert any spell prepared/slash spell known as a cleric converts cure spells.
Animal companion is Ranger level.

Same for Paladin except replace druid with cleric and nature with religion.
Their mount uses Druid animal companion or Paladin mount progression, whichever is better.

Hexblade:
Bard progression, Hex 3+cha mod per day,

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-25, 01:49 PM
Ranger:
They get a whole new method of knowing spells.
They get a number of spells known for each level equal to their ranks in knowledge nature, this list is anything off the ranger or druid list. Bard spells progression and can also convert any spell prepared/slash spell known as a cleric converts cure spells.

You know, thinking about paladin and ranger casting, I don't think it would be at all overpowered to give them warmage casting (know their whole list, cast it spontaneously). There are some really nice spells on the paladin and ranger lists, but those are the ones that would be prepared anyway, and making them fixed-list casters would at least make the more flavorful spells more likely to be cast. Adding on cleric and druid spells on top of that list Advanced Learning-style might be something nice to do, but I don't think I'd consider that a "fix" so much as just a broadening of options.

ShiningStarling
2011-05-25, 02:05 PM
How about: "Casting your highest level spells fatigues you."
These are huge power sources, so make it hurt.

Yitzi
2011-05-25, 02:05 PM
I've actually made a far more detailed version (as one-sentence really won't do it), which I'll be posting for opinions in a moment, but here's a summary of my ideas (many still need more than a single-sentence solution):
Wizard: Nerf (or in some cases ban) the overpowered spells. Provide counters to overpowered spells (scry&die becomes a lot less impressive when there's a "dump unwanted teleports into a bunch of guards" spell cheap enough to be bought by anyone of an appropriate level.) Create an effective dedicated anticaster class.
Cleric: Be very careful when allowing divine feats, especially divine metamagic. Boost their competitors for the melee-er slot. Fix a few broken spells.
Druid: Boost their competitors for the melee-er slot. Don't allow easy ways to take their equipment into wildshape. Fix a few broken spells.
Bard: This class is underrated. It doesn't need a boost, just a player that can use it to its full potential.
Rogue: Same as the bard. A well-played rogue is scary.
Barbarian: Give more wilderness adventures; the barbarian is the best melee-er with the survival skill AFAIK. Also throw more rogue-type enemies at the party so he can use his uncanny dodge and the like. Maybe allow creative uses of his strength (maybe picking up an enemy and hurling it at the others; whether particularly effective or not, it's great fun.)
Ranger: More wilderness adventures and skill use (especially tracking). For a high-level game, allow Camo+HiPS abuse.
Fighter: Provide better fighter feats, possibly some really good ones that are fighter-only.
Monk: He's already got several anti-caster abilities; boost that a lot. This'll also help nerf wizards quite a bit.
NPC classes: They're NPC classes for a reason.

Fineous Orlon
2011-05-25, 04:59 PM
I've been thinking about casters and extra precision damage, like sneak attack, skirmish, archivist-based damage, etc.

Criticals and precision damage cannot be delivered with a touch attack roll; such extra damage may only be delivered if the attacker makes a normal attack roll, even if using a touch attack.

[Does that sound like it includes Ranged Touch Attacks? It is meant to do so].

I mean to say that touch attacks deliver damage no matter where you touch the target; the touch armor class is not a high enough bar to deliver any type of precision or extra damage. If you wish to get sneak attack with your scorching ray, you must have tried and succeeded at defeating the target's normal armor class in that situation.

Solaris
2011-05-25, 06:27 PM
Just checking, but you do realize that's going to be very close to dc 10 for the most part and you're counting their stat twice? Also, I'm not sure how good an idea checks are: to low and they're just a waste of time, to high and you start running into truenamers.

Fail by a small enough margin and it still casts, but there are repercussions. Not a good formula there, but it's what I do with my casters. The intent is that yes, they pull off their spells fairly regularly - but every once in a while, it goes badly.

crusaderjim
2011-05-25, 08:48 PM
Combine OA Samurai with CW Samurai.

wiimanclassic
2011-05-25, 09:28 PM
Fail by a small enough margin and it still casts, but there are repercussions. Not a good formula there, but it's what I do with my casters. The intent is that yes, they pull off their spells fairly regularly - but every once in a while, it goes badly.

Failure on a spell roll results in caster taking 2d6+spell level in damage?

DrWeird
2011-05-25, 10:17 PM
Healers get free Maximize for spells with the [Healing] subschool, a constant Sanctuary effect, and their Unicorn equals a Paladin's Mount.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-25, 10:32 PM
Healers get free Maximize for spells with the [Healing] subschool, a constant Sanctuary effect, and their Unicorn equals a Paladin's Mount.

I like the latter two, and might just steal those. For the free Maximize, though, just saying "You heal [max damage]" every time without even getting to roll for it might get a bit boring. Perhaps they get a certain amount of free metamagic based on the level, choosing effects from a certain list? They could add, say, Empower or Reach when they have +2 free, then Maximize or Chain at +3 free, then Quicken or Twin at +4, then Empower+Chain or any other +5 combination, and so on.

DrWeird
2011-05-25, 11:13 PM
I'd also give them points in Ride pertaining only to their Unicorn equal to their class level, but that's just a personal touch.

Maximize Spell is just a filler for the general boon to healing spells they desperately need to be effective at healing.

tempestman
2011-05-26, 08:00 AM
As far as making sorcerers more in line with Wizards in power, I say give them the warmage edge (Call it Sorcerous Edge?), the Armored Casting, and the Sudden Metamagic feats that the warmage gets, and then scrap the warmage class entirely.

Of course, that makes Sorcerers stronger rather than nerfing them down to Tier 3 like we're trying.

I agree with the Druid's "no natural spell" rule, and if someone were to play a Druid in my game I'd ban that feat right away.

Fighter needs to be more flexible, but I'm not sure how else to do it. You guys all seem to have come up with the good ideas already, so well done with that.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-26, 08:09 AM
Fighters get 4+int skill ranks per level, and add balance, knowledge (architecture and engineering), knowledge (history), knowledge (nobility and royalty), and tumble to their class skills.

Paladins are Pathfinder paladins with 4+int skill ranks per level.

Druids are Pathfinder druids.

Clerics are Pathfinder clerics.

Fisticuffs
2011-05-26, 11:56 AM
Well tell me, would you rather have the wizard blasting and dealing competent but not overpowering damage... or have the wizard winning encounters in a single turn with save or sucks?

My point is that for the most part, damage is the weakest choice a caster can choose to specialize in. Taking away metamagics means they can no longer specialize in that, so taking away all metamagic effects actually makes Wizards stronger by taking away their weakest option.

I know what the feats do, what I'm trying to say is that compared to the melee guys that their worst option is still usually better. If you reduced their better options that the metamagic feats would a staple to the build, there's no feat that maximizes sneak attack dice.

Zeta Kai
2011-05-26, 12:13 PM
The DC for a truenaming check is 15 + (CR x 1), & they can take 10 on TN checks.

There, now they are better than RAW monks.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-26, 12:14 PM
Monks can flurry as a standard action, but they only get the attacks at their full BAB, not the ones at penalties.

Weapon finesse isn't a feat, anyone wielding a finessable weapon can use dex instead of strength.

Shield users add half their BAB as an untyped shield bonus to AC while holding a shield.

Add your base shield bonus (not the bonus from half BAB) to reflex saves.

Anyone using a heavy shield gets evasion.

Light shields grant +2 to AC, not +1.

You don't take a penalty on attack rolls while using a tower shield.

Eldest
2011-05-26, 12:15 PM
Wizards may only know 8 spells of each level above 1st well enough to write them in a spellbook or memorize them.
+1
Maybe also the wide ban of spells of level 7+.

jmelesky
2011-05-26, 01:10 PM
Any casting time listed as "standard action" is a full-round action; any casting time listed as "1 round" is two rounds.

edit: upon reflection, this should apply to prepared casters, but possibly not spontaneous casters (i.e. Tier 2 due to limited spells known).

T.G. Oskar
2011-05-26, 01:15 PM
Oh yeah, I almost forgot!

Prepared spellcasters gain access to new spell levels at even levels; spontaneous spellcasters gain access to new spell levels at odd levels.

Basically, it's switching things around. The idea behind it is that Wizards must take their time to prepare their minds and their bodies for the higher level spells, but in exchange they gain a wider selection of them. Sorcerers spontaneously manifest such power, and thus they acquire their spells faster, but they learn fewer spells. Likewise, Clerics and Druids are given their full spellcasting bounty from higher powers, but they need rigorous training to properly manifest them, while Favored Souls are gifted with innate divine spellcasting ability but limited to the choices of its deity (fluff-wise; mechanically you'd still choose your spells). The amount of spells they can cast per day remains equal, so a Wizard can cast a total of 4 spells per spell level + the bonus spells from Intelligence per day, while a Sorcerer would cast 6 spells per spell level per day, plus the bonus spells from Charisma. This gives a slighter edge to Sorcerers, while making the very powerful Wizards remain usually one level behind up until level 18th when they finally reach the Sorcerer (and eventually bypass it).

Of course, this only applies to full spellcasters; Bards and half-casters retain their same spellcasting ability, except half-casters gain full CL and probably spells at a lower level. However, that's not really a one-sentence fix.

BillyBobJoe
2011-05-26, 01:29 PM
All wild shape from any ability is treated as a Primeval Wild Shape. (Frostburn)

What Primeval Wild Shape does is adds +2 to strength and natural armor, Cold Resistance 10, but only lasts 1 round/ level. This takes away the ability to constantly be in Wild Shape and makes them conserve their uses.

Solaris
2011-05-26, 06:28 PM
Failure on a spell roll results in caster taking 2d6+spell level in damage?

Perhaps, but I'm also contemplating coming up with a chart to roll on in the same vein as the infamous 'critical fumble' tables so as to make it more interesting than just straight damage. Perhaps one result is the caster suddenly has to overcome SR 11+his level in order to cast a spell (but at he has that SR to protect himself, too) for the next 24 hours. Another might be someone gets turned into a toad for a period. Stuff like that.

EDIT: And I'm thinking a caster level check, not a skill check. 1st-level spells have to hit DC 11, 2nd-level spells have to hit DC 13, 3rd-level DC 15, and so on. Maybe even a little lower, considering spellcasters can only cast so many times per day.

Witty Username
2011-05-26, 07:19 PM
Anti-mage fighter(and other like minded classes) feats and feat trees that actually help.
Extend feat trees.
Shield bonus to touch AC.

Fable Wright
2011-05-26, 08:20 PM
All sorcerers are battle sorcerers.
Wizards cast their spells with 1-round casting times, quickening results in standard action casting.
Samurai gets Cha to attack and damage, bonus feats every fourth level, and minor maneuver progression (Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw).
Rangers get full skirmish progression, animal companion as wild cohort.
Barbarian gets Ranger spellcasting.
Warmage deals Cha damage on each spell they want, add battlefield control to their spell list.
Monk gets wis to attack/damage rolls, full BAB in a flurry, ninja ki powers, pounce.
Duskblades get d10 HD, automatic Arcane strike, expanded knowledge (any spell) every 4 levels.
Warlock can select invocations from dread necro/beguiler/warmage spell lists (only one).
Fighter gestalts with knight.
Hexblade has extra curses/day equal to Cha mod, not expended if opponent saves, quicken spell 1/day/5 levels.
Truenamer fixes itself.

NineThePuma
2011-05-26, 08:40 PM
Truenamer fixes itself.

How, exactly?

Fable Wright
2011-05-26, 09:23 PM
How, exactly?

If I knew, I would have specified. :P

Skeppio
2011-05-26, 09:38 PM
Natural Spell is removed from the game.

Rangers gain their Animal Companion as per the Druid rules, and vice-versa.

PoorHobo
2011-05-27, 02:45 AM
Rogues get 1/2 their sneak attack against crit immune targets, if you want, make this a rogue talent or feat.

PoorHobo
2011-05-27, 04:13 AM
Longer than a sentance, too short for its own thread.

A fighter has access to all feats for which he qualifies for except weapon specialization, He may choose any feat that he qualifies for as a fighter bonus feat. Each time he is allowed to change his focus he may swap out any and all feats that he gained as fighter bonus feats for different feats which he qualifies for. A fighter may change his focus 1/day at first level and one more per day every 5 levels thereafter. A fighter recieves +4 to one attribute for determining the effects of feats but not actually qualifying for feats and nothing else. A fighter may change his focus attribute every time he changes his focus. A multi-class fighter may only use his fighter levels for determing what feats he has access to when changing his focus.

The_Admiral
2011-05-27, 04:19 AM
The preperation time for spells is 10 minutes per level and 5 minutes for level 0

Solaris
2011-05-27, 05:38 AM
Longer than a sentance, too short for its own thread.

A fighter has access to all feats for which he qualifies for except weapon specialization, He may choose any feat that he qualifies for as a fighter bonus feat. Each time he is allowed to change his focus he may swap out any and all feats that he gained as fighter bonus feats for different feats which he qualifies for. A fighter may change his focus 1/day at first level and one more per day every 5 levels thereafter. A fighter recieves +4 to one attribute for determining the effects of feats but not actually qualifying for feats and nothing else. A fighter may change his focus attribute every time he changes his focus. A multi-class fighter may only use his fighter levels for determing what feats he has access to when changing his focus.

Still leaves him pretty unable to do something useful outside of combat, and has the added bonus of being a logistical nightmare.

Drynwyn
2011-05-27, 05:54 AM
Ninja: Ninja receives a d8 hit die and full base attack. It still has only sudden strike.

PoorHobo
2011-05-27, 07:21 AM
Still leaves him pretty unable to do something useful outside of combat, and has the added bonus of being a logistical nightmare.

There are plenty of feats that can be used out of combat. Unless you mean, doesn't get spells, in which case thats a martial vs casting problem not a fighter specific one.

Also, more of a logistical nightmare than a caster, who has access to hundreds of spells of longer entries than feats?

I don't understand your criticism. If this is a thread derail please PM me.

Solaris
2011-05-27, 11:56 PM
There are plenty of feats that can be used out of combat. Unless you mean, doesn't get spells, in which case thats a martial vs casting problem not a fighter specific one.

Also, more of a logistical nightmare than a caster, who has access to hundreds of spells of longer entries than feats?

I don't understand your criticism. If this is a thread derail please PM me.

Yes, there are. However... how many feats are there that grant him some capability to get around a pit too deep to climb in a timely manner, too far to jump? Or over a sheer cliff? Through a wall? Through a door without needing adamantine weapons? An invisible creature 10 feet away? Sure, he can take cross-class skills for Open Lock or Disable Device... but that's cross-class. Similarly, he's pretty hamstrung when it comes to social interaction. It doesn't help when you say "Oh, but there are n+1 feats in this, that, and the other splatbook to do those things" - not everyone has that many splatbooks.