Need some ideas for an evil PC (3.5)

[amonstarblade]

Hi guys i need your help! i'm about to start a 20 level (3.5) all evil adventure (kinda a mix between Dungeon keeper and a supervillain Gruoup) im on short of ideas so i would like to hear some suggestion. i will state the requirments

1)we have aldready a barbarian type and a monster class Pc, so if you have malee suggestion must be very flavoured/original


2)I'd like the combination of class have some theme instead of only power

3)the other Pc are not optimized so it must not to be uberpowerfull but just a good

4)i also wish to be human or 0 Ecl race

I was thinking about an Evil paladin type, but cant figure out nothing beside Blackguard or varian paladin the only good ideas i had was about a 10 Blackguard/10 dragon Rider (Dragonlance Campaign settings) riding a blu dragon

we also have this limitation:
no psion
No flaws
no ToB,PH2 internet or dragon magazine material
our Dm also nerfed Mystical Theurge so it give 1level divine/1 level arcane on level 1,3,5,7,9 and +1 divine OR +1 arcan on the other level
we also banned this class (and releated Prc: Warlock,Shiba Protector,enuch warlock,singing rager,fuchluan Liryst
also in our game hyerophant Prc gains +1 level of existing spellclass just like archmage

Ps we all have for free the Leadership Feats

PPs English is not my native lenguage please try to forgive any error

[Malkav]

I am a fan of Necromancers.

[Greenish]

I am a fan of Necromancers.Yeah, undead armies are always a laugh. Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) is excellent at it, and is in general a nice tier 3 class.

Thrallherd (Expanded Psionic Handbook) is another option for being really evil, and since Leadership is allowed… (Or did you mean you get it for free?)


For Evil Paladins, Paladin of Tyranny variant (Unearthed Arcana) is a great start for, say, a sorcadin or other Cha-stacker.

Oh wait, speaking of necromancers, Bone Knight (Five Nations) has the Evil Paladin flavour as well as necromancer powers, and nearly full casting to go with it. Cleric is the stronger entry, but Paladin of Tyranny works too, just remember Battle Blessing and devotion feats.

[DarkestKnight]

Look through the Book of Vile Darkness, it has many many wonderfully horrible suggestions.

I would suggest the Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis. Basically you plant a small necrotic cyst on people and can later possess/dominate them, make all of their organs erupt out of their body and entangle people and generally do things that make people go 'yuck'. it is a spell casting feat, but you get a lot for the one feat.

To add to Malkav, necromancers are very very evil, assuming enlisting the dead is an inherently evil act, so either playing a true necromancer, Heroes of Horror I think, or a wizard specializing in necromancy could be fun. in that case i would suggest looking into Libris Mortis.

[Fable Wright]

Look through the Book of Vile Darkness, it has many many wonderfully horrible suggestions.

I would suggest the Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis. Basically you plant a small necrotic cyst on people and can later possess/dominate them, make all of their organs erupt out of their body and entangle people and generally do things that make people go 'yuck'. it is a spell casting feat, but you get a lot for the one feat.

To add to Malkav, necromancers are very very evil, assuming enlisting the dead is an inherently evil act, so either playing a true necromancer, Heroes of Horror I think, or a wizard specializing in necromancy could be fun. in that case i would suggest looking into Libris Mortis.

1. It's two feats. You need heighten spell to actually implant the cysts at mid-high levels.
2. For casting, what kind of focus would you want to have? Battlefield control (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God), blasting (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer), armies (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook), what?

[Coidzor]

Bone Knight (5 Nations) + Necromancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) Cleric. Preferably with Deathbound Domain.


To add to Malkav, necromancers are very very evil, assuming enlisting the dead is an inherently evil act, so either playing a true necromancer, Heroes of Horror I think, or a wizard specializing in necromancy could be fun. in that case i would suggest looking into Libris Mortis.

No. True Necromancer is even worse than Mystic Theurge even considering that his DM doesn't understand Mystic Theurges and felt they needed additional nerfing.

[The Glyphstone]

Your DM nerfed Mystic Theurge? Wowza.


If you're heavy on melee and don't want to play a spellcaster, howabout a Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter? Play him up as a ruthless bounty hunter, maybe one who prefers 'dead or alive' contracts because it's a ready-made excuse to murder people and get paid for it (for a Chaotic Evil) or a Kraven-ish 'thrill of the hunt/most dangerous game' hunter (for Lawful Evil).

Scout 4/Ranger 16 is exceedingly mobile, can pump out a fair amount of damage without being overpowered, and picking favored enemies like Humanoid(human) and Outsider(good) will help a lot against the enemies you'll likely face.

[Elric VIII]

Bone Knight (5 Nations) + Necromancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) Cleric. Preferably with Deathbound Domain.

I'm doing this (my other domain is Time) and it is hilariously fun. I'm immune to basically everything, and with Persistent Spell and GMW/MV I can focus my funds on MM rods and other useful trinkets. With this setup you can make an excelent BFC/Buffer with the ability to tank when it matters.

Be warned, you need something like Divine Defiance and/or Bead of Karma to counter those targetted dispels if you go with the buff-stacking route.


Something cool that I have been toying around with is a character that is actually insane. He's a CE Archivist/Walker in the Wastes that begins as an Archaeologist. He studies the burial and afterlife traditions and practices of ancient civilizations and his megalomania causes him to eventually embrace the power of undeath. I think Archivist is a nice flavorful choice, with Dark Knowledge et al, but Cleric gains the added benefit of TU from the high Cha score (which you want since Dry Lich lets you use it to add to your hp).

[Thurbane]

How about a Dread Necro/Binder/Anima Mage? With some early entry optimization, you can snag 10 or 11 levels or Binding with only a minimal hit to your caster level. Good CHA synergy, too. Thematically, I really like it - a necromancer who binds long dead entities to his soul, then exploits them to power his spellcasting.

You could easily swap out Dread Necro for Sorcerer or any other arcane class. I'm personally also fond of Sorcerer/Binder/Anima Mage/Fiend Blooded...

[agahii]

I like dread necromancer human/ghost. I play it with the web savage progression but you said no online so you'd have to eat the +5 la

May be better to go human dread necromancer prcing into walker in the wastes at level 9 because dry lich is better than lich (5 phylacterys). Then 2 levels of incantrix for your 19th and 20th levels before going into epic.

for feats id take some arcane disciple (complete divine) to add spells to your list. Id go with travel and trickery domains, divine metamagic and persist (or other metamagic feats) if your DM dosent use errata(an online source).

[Mr. Zolrane]

The Pathfinder antipaladin is a good choice. May have to nerf it fiddle with it to work under 3.5 smiting rules, but it could work.

[Coidzor]

Nerf and paladin in any form in the same sentence is so surreal to see. :smalleek: Pathfinder really gave 'em a leg up, eh?

[Mr. Zolrane]

Nerf and paladin in any form in the same sentence is so surreal to see. :smalleek: Pathfinder really gave 'em a leg up, eh?

You have no idea. They are so much better. I'm not saying they need a nerf; they're about right, IMO. I'm saying to make an antipaladin a true analogue of a 3.5 paladin they would have to nerf him like a boss.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If you can find a way to become either Undead (I like the Ghost Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), but since your DM is against online material you may want to try Necropolitan) or gain the Evil Subtype, I'd recommend a Tainted Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) dip - boost your taint in any of the many ways available, and you'll be quite powerful in addition to being very, very evil. Combine this with the Mailman Sorcerer build listed above, and maybe Shadowcraft Mage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0) (from Races of Stone, and adapted to allow non-Gnomes) and you'll be quite capable, especially if you swap Sorcerer for Wizard. The fun thing with ScM is then taking Arcane Disciple for the Luck Domain to get Miracle, and Signature Spell (Silent Image) so that you don't have to prepare Silent Images but can convert spells into heightened Silent Image Miracles.

With a suitably high Taint score, you can prepare basically every spell you know of every spell level you have sufficient times not to run out, with ridiculous DCs and all of that.

[amonstarblade]

Thanks to everyone for the quick reply i was looking the necromancer path myself but we aldready have a death Knight Pc in the party....
The Glyphstone idea of a "Kraven" is nice i wonder if i could make him less isolated Pc and make him head fo something
Dm says we must all be leader of some evil organizations or sometingh (assasin's guild master for example) so beside the caster route there is some idea for a rougish tipe (guild master) or a leader of somithing like knight of neraka.


Your DM nerfed Mystic Theurge? Wowza.
He nerfed that when we was playng epic level but i dont know seems a bit broken i miss sometingh?


How about a Dread Necro/Binder/Anima Mage? With some early entry optimization, you can snag 10 or 11 levels or Binding with only a minimal hit to your caster level. Good CHA synergy, too. Thematically, I really like it - a necromancer who binds long dead entities to his soul, then exploits them to power his spellcasting.

ops i forgot no ToM

[Greenish]

He nerfed that when we was playng epic level but i dont know seems a bit broken i miss sometingh?Higher level spells are better than more lower level spells, basically.

[Tvtyrant]

Sounds like its Evil Cleric time! Full casting+Plate Armor, and if take the Summoning Domain and then go into Malconvoker you can get an amazing mount by binding something good.

On a side note, I always find it sad you can't bind extraplanar undead, since as an evil Cleric you could bind a Nightshade and get a moving desecration effect. Then a Nightwing+Undead army would be awesome.

[amonstarblade]

i just have an idea! wath about an monk/ur-priest/sacred fist? i remember there was a way to deliver touch spell in addition to normal attack... or that was a PH2 class?

[Urpriest]

i just have an idea! wath about an monk/ur-priest/sacred fist? i remember there was a way to deliver touch spell in addition to normal attack... or that was a PH2 class?

Duskblade from the PHBII can do that, and three levels of Duskblade are decent in an Ur-Priest Sacred Fist build. Since you can't do that it's a bit trickier. The lack of Warlock also hurts and makes entry even trickier. Perhaps you could make it work with Hexblade, I'll have to check if that works. Getting that ability to deliver touch spells with normal attacks will require Enlightened Fist with your sources, which will require some arcane class.

[Doc Roc]

Archivist Archer gogogo!

[agahii]

You could go human wizard/war weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon (maybe reflavored to a city in your campaign if your not in Forgotten realms).

I know its weird for an evil build to be an awesome buffer, but I could see a person with leadership, and undead leadership having his mooks tear things apart with him sweet buffs on em. May even be a nice guy and buff the rest of the party haha

[Doc Roc]

You could go human wizard/war weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon (maybe reflavored to a city in your campaign if your not in Forgotten realms).

I know its weird for an evil build to be an awesome buffer, but I could see a person with leadership, and undead leadership having his mooks tear things apart with him sweet buffs on em. May even be a nice guy and buff the rest of the party haha

Kekeke? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0)

[agahii]

Yes if you decide to do the buff thing, that is a fantastic guide Doc Roc just posted.

[dspeyer]

He nerfed that when we was playng epic level but i dont know seems a bit broken i miss sometingh?

It's pretty weak pre-epic because you're effectively sacrificing 9th level spells.

[Divide by Zero]

It's pretty weak pre-epic because you're effectively sacrificing 9th level spells.

And at epic, even a single-classed caster should have more spells than they know what to do with, and if Epic Spellcasting is allowed then it's all irrelevant anyway.

[Hirax]

You are starting at level 20? Will you be going to level 21 and beyond? The epic leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicLeadership) feat might be worth your consideration if your DM isn't giving it to you for free, since it allows you to have much more powerful followers. A couple other feats are also worth your consideration. The extra followers feat (Heroes of Battle) doubles the amount of followers you get, and the legendary commander (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryCommander) epic feat multiplies your followers by 10. Both the feats I just liked to are taken from the Epic Level Handbook, they're not some sort of third party internet homebrew. Also, the might makes right feat (Races of Faerun) lets you add your strength modifier in addition to your charisma modifier to determine your leadership score. Some people say that might makes right replaces your charisma modifier in determining your leadership score, but this is false, there is nothing in the feat text that implies that in any way.

As for a build suggestion, I'll keep it simple and recommend bard9/virtuoso1/sublime chord2/virtuoso+8

Sublime chord is from Complete Arcane, Virtuoso is from Complete Adventurer

You know all those conspiracies about how music is an evil tool of the devil to control unwitting souls? This build could make that happen, since you'd be able to dominate (as in the the spell dominate person) any humanoid that you've fascinated with your bardic music. Oh and by the way, you get 9th level spells.

[amonstarblade]

Uh i like the idea of the bard but i fear that most of our enemy (good Pnc and Celestial) would have some kind of mind protection.....

Yes we will go epic a bit but that comes after for now i just seek a 20 Pc

i dont grasp


Archivist Archer gogogo!
i dont get it wat should this do?

i will prefer not to be buffer it fit bad with Evil Pc in my opinion

no idea about a blackguard tipe champion?

[The Glyphstone]

The Glyphstone idea of a "Kraven" is nice i wonder if i could make him less isolated Pc and make him head fo something
Dm says we must all be leader of some evil organizations or sometingh (assasin's guild master for example) so beside the caster route there is some idea for a rougish tipe (guild master) or a leader of somithing like knight of neraka.


Well what would a very successful bounty hunter end up doing? What sort of people would he attract to follow him? If he has followers or a guild, he might be less of a Kraven The Hunter and more of a Dog The Bounty Hunter (except without the TV show) - he'll need minions and lackeys for support, transportation, supplies,etc. He'll have lesser bounty hunters on his 'payroll' (they probably pay him) to take on contracts that he thinks are beneath him, in exchange for being able to benefit from the prestige of saying "yeah, I'm a bounty hunter who works for -this guy-, you want to hire me". A bounty-collecting mercenary guild, so to speak, with worldwide and even extraplanar contract acceptance.

[amonstarblade]

Well what would a very successful bounty hunter end up doing? What sort of people would he attract to follow him? If he has followers or a guild, he might be less of a Kraven The Hunter and more of a Dog The Bounty Hunter (except without the TV show) - he'll need minions and lackeys for support, transportation, supplies,etc. He'll have lesser bounty hunters on his 'payroll' (they probably pay him) to take on contracts that he thinks are beneath him, in exchange for being able to benefit from the prestige of saying "yeah, I'm a bounty hunter who works for -this guy-, you want to hire me". A bounty-collecting mercenary guild, so to speak, with worldwide and even extraplanar contract acceptance.

this could fit but why this tipe of Pc should team up with other bad guys?he obviously think i can do himself the job and not need others help

[The Glyphstone]

this could fit but why this tipe of Pc should team up with other bad guys?he obviously think i can do himself the job and not need others help

That sort of question can be applied to any evil character. If he's smart, he knows there will be certain skills he doesn't have, things he usually relies on his support network for. If he can form a temporary partnership with some equally powerful people who are far better than his usual minions, that'll increase his odds of success. Naturally, he'd still consider them his minions, but useful ones, useful enough to try and avoid insulting them too badly.

The best Evil party is where everyone thinks they're the 'leader', but doesn't say it because they assume everyone else already knows their place and so they just cooperate anyways.

[amonstarblade]

ok i have talked with my DM and we found an accomodation: other evil people have tricked him(i bet you cant beat this guy)or payed him to kill the Good side paragon (the one withe big artifact (excalibur or wathever...)

So how to develop this idea...... i dont understend why you suggest 3 levl of scout
wath about target soecific class? like vigilante bloodhound or something like that? i'would like him fighit with a lance any good idea how to optimize this weappon a bit?(without being too uber)

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, the basic mechanical side of this is:

Scout 3/Ranger 17.

There is a feat in Complete Scoundrel called Swift Hunter, which makes Scout and Ranger levels stack for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. With that feat, you have the Favored Enemies of a 20th-level ranger (that's +8/+6/+4/+2) as well as the Skirmish damage of a 20th-level Scout (+5d6/+5 AC). You also have +19 BAB and the spellcasting ability of a 17th-level ranger, and a (mediocre, but acceptable) animal companion. Vigilante is if you want to be Batman, Bloodhound is all about capturing targets alive, which this guy doesn't want to.

This is an archery build, though - a lance would be for a melee weapon. You play this guy by moving every turn, and either firing a single sniper-like arrow shot for decent damage, or by using the Greater Manyshot feat to fire 4 arrows that all get the bonus damage when something really needs to die. Ranger magic helps buff you, improve your stealth, disable enemies, and shoot people in the face from point-blank range if you need to (Arrow Mind).

[amonstarblade]

mmm i belive that a full ranged attak would deal way much damage than a single +5d6 attack why i should do that so?
For archer tipei prefer arcane archer by a lot....
sorry to bother you but you have any suggestion for a lance based build? and also esit any other class with specific target like viglante and blood hound?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

mmm i belive that a full ranged attak would deal way much damage than a single +5d6 attack why i should do that so?
For archer tipei prefer arcane archer by a lot....
sorry to bother you but you have any suggestion for a lance based build? and also esit any other class with specific target like viglante and blood hound?

Lance Based Build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0) you say? This is basically the Lance Based Build - Endarire's Little Red Raiding Hood.

[The Glyphstone]

mmm i belive that a full ranged attak would deal way much damage than a single +5d6 attack why i should do that so?
For archer tipei prefer arcane archer by a lot....
sorry to bother you but you have any suggestion for a lance based build? and also esit any other class with specific target like viglante and blood hound?

Arcane archer sucks. Stay as far away from it as you can...even the Pathfinder Arcane Archer is bad. You're correct that a single +5d6 shot isn't good, which is why you need a way to full attack while moving. Greater Manyshot is the quickest way to do this. You could also dip one level of Cleric for Travel Devotion, or one level of Monk for the Sparring Dummy of the Master, or get an (expensive) custom item of at-will Hustle (a Psychic Warrior power), but those are all dips and could look suspicious if you group is low-optimization. Greater Manyshot is the simplest way, though it costs you up to -8 on your attack rolls when using it.

Cleric 1/Scout 3/Ranger 16 would be the optimal version, if you can't get the custom Hustle item.

If you want a lance-based build, use the one linked above...but it is a melee fighter, which you said you didn't really want.

[amonstarblade]

ooh yes you are right i was so excited by the kraven idea to forget we aldready have 2 malee fighter XD

and why arcane archer sucks anyway? free enchanted arrow is very good at low optimizing game

Tanks for everything i think i will go with the cleric variation..... one question... if i add in some level of Throwing weapon master for double toss... with travel devotion and two weapon fighting... can i throw 14 dagger each one with skirmish bonus?

[The Glyphstone]

ooh yes you are right i was so excited by the kraven idea to forget we aldready have 2 malee fighter XD

and why arcane archer sucks anyway? free enchanted arrow is very good at low optimizing game

Tanks for everything i think i will go with the cleric variation..... one question... if i add in some level of Throwing weapon master for double toss... with travel devotion and two weapon fighting... can i throw 14 dagger each one with skirmish bonus?

1) You're level 20. You have more than three quarters of a million gold to spend on gear, the 50,000 you'd save is trivial.
2) A real caster can just put a Greater Magic Weapon spell on your bow every day, saving you even that much.
3) The enhancement don't stack with real enhancements, so it's a lot more expensive to get special abilities.
4) It's a casting class with the ability to put spells on its arrows that doesn't advance spellcasting - every level you spend in a spellcasting class to use your abilities is a level that hurts your shooting capacity and makes it take longer to get those abilities.


Unfortunately, Palm Throw does not work with Skirmish, because it's precision damage. You'd be able to throw 14 daggers, but only 7 of them would get the bonus damage, and they'd all be at sizable attack penalties. It'd also be far more expensive, due to the need to enchant a ton of daggers instead of a single bow shooting ordinary arrows.

[Doc Roc]

Because this (http://wayback.archive.org/web/jsp/Interstitial.jsp?seconds=5&date=1208349580000&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fwotc_archive %2Findex.php%2Ft-762006&target=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F200804 16123940%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fwotc_ archive%2Findex.php%2Ft-762006) is what damage looks like.

[The Glyphstone]

Because this (http://wayback.archive.org/web/jsp/Interstitial.jsp?seconds=5&date=1208349580000&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fwotc_archive %2Findex.php%2Ft-762006&target=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F200804 16123940%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.gleemax.com%2Fwotc_ archive%2Findex.php%2Ft-762006) is what damage looks like.

Doc, you did catch the low-optimization part of this, right? We're trying to give this guy a good character, not get him strapped down and beaten with PHBs. After all, Rule 3 of Optimizing is knowing when not to do it.

[Doc Roc]

Doc, you did catch the low-optimization part of this, right? We're trying to give this guy a good character, not get him strapped down and beaten with PHBs. After all, Rule 3 of Optimizing is knowing when not to do it.

Sure, it was just an example of the extreme, in an effort to indicate that perhaps arcane archer isn't exactly the win-bringer. If he does want arcane archer, I can whip one up that's pretty phenomenal but not broken. Alternatively, you can ratchet the damage way down on that archivist build by just ripping parts out.

[amonstarblade]

What you mean for seizable attack penalitis i dont think is worster than the -8 for many arrows..... and also if i make a low Str build can i make touch attak with master trower to overcome attack penalities?

[Eldariel]

2) A real caster can just put a Greater Magic Weapon spell on your bow every day, saving you even that much.

4) It's a casting class with the ability to put spells on its arrows that doesn't advance spellcasting - every level you spend in a spellcasting class to use your abilities is a level that hurts your shooting capacity and makes it take longer to get those abilities.

These two actually come together at a very important point: if you weren't an Arcane Archer, you could be that caster that casts Greater Magic Weapon. In other words, instead of investing levels in Arcane Archer and getting a GMW-like ability, you could just learn Greater Magic Weapon yourself. This, if your party doesn't somehow have any Wizards or Clerics.

Arcane Archer has exactly one niché: Imbue Arrow, the second level ability, offers some relatively unique options. This means some builds (that don't lose casting for it, such as Sublime Chords [Complete Arcane]) can take two levels of Arcane Archer and not fail at everything.

Of course, to make use of that ability you have to be practically a full caster so that kinda pigeonholes it even further against taking more than two levels in Arcane Archer ever.


And yeah, true damage lies in either the Martial Stack (which loses out on every other aspect) or in the mess of an Archivist Archer.

[The Glyphstone]

What you mean for seizable attack penalitis i dont think is worster than the -8 for many arrows..... and also if i make a low Str build can i make touch attak with master trower to overcome attack penalities?

It's not worse than the -8 for Greater Manyshot, but it is worse than the no-penalty for a Travel Devotion. Weak Spot for touch attacks is definitely a good idea, but the real problem is the weapon enchants. You simply can't afford to carry around enough daggers where you can throw that many/turn.


This can still be done, though - it'll be more of a Bullseye vibe than Kraven, but Bullseye is cool too. Instead of 7 daggers, you buy seven +1 daggers with Returning, then have your cohort be a Wizard or Cleric who can cast Greater Magic Weapon on your weapons for you. In fact, this could be quite an interesting character - not one I'd ever make for a game below level 15-20, but flavorful and as solid as a martial character is going to get at those levels without Hulking Hurler or Omegacharger shenanigans.

The only downside is that levels in Master Thrower cost you levels in Ranger, which hurts both your Favored Enemy progression and your Skirmish progression. You'd lose +1d6/+1 Skirmish, and only have +8/+6/+4/+2 for Favored Enemies, but you'd also be hitting against touch AC and potentially hitting with more attacks/round.

[Doc Roc]

[...] but flavorful and as solid as a martial character is going to get at those levels without Hulking Hurler or Omegacharger shenanigans. [...]

Or Boomerang Daze, or being a warblade, or crusader, or by using imperious command or by...

The options are a bit wider than you portray them as.

Would you like an arcane archer build that is not suck?

[The Glyphstone]

Or Boomerang Daze, or being a warblade, or crusader, or by using imperious command or by...

The options are a bit wider than you portray them as.

Not for him. Warblade and Crusader are both ToB material, which is banned. Boomerang Daze and Imperious Command can work, but they're both from setting-specific books, if not setting-specific material, and we can't make conjecture on if they'd be allowed or not. Particularly without ToB, his options for endgame martial combat are pretty limited.

[Doc Roc]

Not for him. Warblade and Crusader are both ToB material, which is banned. Boomerang Daze and Imperious Command can work, but they're both from setting-specific books, if not setting-specific material, and we can't make conjecture on if they'd be allowed or not. Particularly without ToB, his options for endgame martial combat are pretty limited.

Hum. The lock on ToB really does limit it, you're right, and I had forgotten the limit re: setting specific. Fudge!

[The Glyphstone]

Now that I think of it, Master Thrower levels will cost you more, because of that Cleric dip. It's survivable, though, if you really like the dagger-throwing flavor.

Want to help number-crunch this then, Doc? I'm trying to work out if the Weak Spot ability of Master Thrower is worth losing the +1d6 skirmish, +2 favored enemy damage, and that juicy 4th level Ranger spell.

[amonstarblade]

Thank for the help, i belive i would chose this bullsey tipe... iwonder if i can e put into 3 level of Swashbuckler for adding cha damage....that would easly be more than an average d6......

Thanks for everyone i will post the final build just for be sure i have make all right BTW we roll our stats (i rolled very well 16/16/16/15/14/12 and we have permission hof make ours magic item

Our master have banned Splitting enchantment (heroes of Horror) im alright with this decision how can that enchantmen not be considered broken?

[The Glyphstone]

Thank for the help, i belive i would chose this bullsey tipe... iwonder if i can e put into 3 level of Swashbuckler for adding cha damage....that would easly be more than an average d6......

Thanks for everyone i will post the final build just for be sure i have make all right BTW we roll our stats (i rolled very well 16/16/16/15/14/12 and we have permission hof make ours magic item

Our master have banned Splitting enchantment (heroes of Horror) im alright with this decision how can that enchantmen not be considered broken?

Nonono, no Swashbuckler. You can't afford to lose any more Ranger levels. And yeah, Splitting is broken as all heck.

With those stats, you want your build to be something like this:

Ranger 11/Scout 3/Master Thrower 5/Cleric 1.

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 15.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Dagger), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Zen Archery (good one, makes your ranged attacks use Wisdom to-hit), Swift Hunter, Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and maybe Extra Turning or something (Doc, help me out here, 1 empty feat slot - Improved Skirmish?). Put all your level-up points into Wisdom, and buy a +5 Wisdom stat tome and a Periapt of Wisdom +6.

Either buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, or have your Cohort know Chain spell. he'll need to be a Cleric or Wizard, using GMW and Chain to enchant all your daggers. Buy yourself Gloves of Extended Range from MIC, and your daggers have a 30ft range increment.

[Doc Roc]

For my own edification, mostly... Not suitable for low-op. Did I miss anything, legality wise, glyph?

Elf Of Some Flavor
Lawful Good
Bard 4/Swiftblade 4/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade 5/Abjurant Champion 3
Flaw: Vulnerable
1: Dodge
3: Mobility
Say: "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu"
Wish For Wealth To Pay For:
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Shortbow -> Point Blank Shot
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Longsword-> Precise Shot
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Long Bow-> Versatile Spellcaster
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Rapier -> Weapon Focus(Short Bow)
Drakehelm(1st level) For Trapsmith Haste
~38k Should Cover It! How Convenient!
6: Practiced Spellcaster

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, he said no flaws in the OP.

Aside from that, the Chaos Shuffle trick is the only major problem I'd see with it...it's legal, but obscure and at best moderate cheese.

I was mainly looking for a final feat to patch that last hole, but then I remembered Improved Skirmish, which functions deliciously with Travel Devotion.

[amonstarblade]

For my own edification, mostly... Not suitable for low-op. Did I miss anything, legality wise, glyph?

No flaw and no UA material

and wath is chaos shuffle?

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, he said no flaws in the OP.

Aside from that, the Chaos Shuffle trick is the only major problem I'd see with it...it's legal, but obscure and at best moderate cheese.

I was mainly looking for a final feat to patch that last hole, but then I remembered Improved Skirmish, which functions deliciously with Travel Devotion.

Yeah I couldn't find a way to do it with no flaws. We can't quite get enough feats from shuffle.... Is there a good way to get one of the reqs out of the way that I'm missing?



No flaw and no UA material

and wath is chaos shuffle?

A dumb trick that lets you trade feats for other feats, often eliminating restrictions in the process. Disregarding the UA material, the inclusion of the shuffle probably makes it unsuitable for your game.


It's a combo of two spells from the Fiendish Codex 1.

1: Use the spell Embrace the Dark Chaos to trade any feat you have for an Abyssal Heritor feat.
2: Use the spell Shun The Dark Chaos to trade any Abyssal Heritor feat you have for any feat you qualify for.
3: ???
4: Profit

[The Glyphstone]

A somewhat complicated trick that's somewhat cheesy. It involves two spells from the Fiendish Codex, and works like this.

You have any feat (like elf racial proficencies here).
You cast a spell called Embrace The Dark Chaos, which converts any feat you have into a Chaos Feat (makes you demon-touched, basically).
You cast another spell called Shun the Dark Chaos, which converts any Chaos feat you have into a normal feat.
end result, for about 4000 XP and being an elf, you've gained 4 free feats to spend on whatever you want.

EDIT: And apparently Doc ninja's me with...myself?


..something is up with forum software, I can't copy-paste. I was more looking for a suggestion on a final feat for the Bullseye Hunter build, but Improved Skirmish is perfect. 7 dagger throws/turn against touch AC with +6d6 damage per hit...it's really sad ToB is banned, otherwise I'd be trying to work in Stormguard Warrior with Double Toss for MASSIVE DAMAGE. The only real weakness is its 30ft. range for optimal effectiveness (though that's not a huge weakness, since most encounters aren't beyond 100ft or so).

[amonstarblade]

o i see no that cant be done in our games XD
buf caouse we can make our equipment i can create a use activeted item that cast a 20 CL GMW 3 x day for about 3-4000 gold XD

I know a ittle of ToB but most of the other palyer (Dm included) dosen't now how it works and if only me are using that will be to Op for the other using Fighter and Barbarian

[Doc Roc]

A somewhat complicated trick that's somewhat cheesy. It involves two spells from the Fiendish Codex, and works like this.

You have any feat (like elf racial proficencies here).
You cast a spell called Embrace The Dark Chaos, which converts any feat you have into a Chaos Feat (makes you demon-touched, basically).
You cast another spell called Shun the Dark Chaos, which converts any Chaos feat you have into a normal feat.
end result, for about 4000 XP and being an elf, you've gained 4 free feats to spend on whatever you want.

EDIT: And apparently Doc ninja's me with...myself?


..something is up with forum software, I can't copy-paste. I was more looking for a suggestion on a final feat for the Bullseye Hunter build, but Improved Skirmish is perfect. 7 dagger throws/turn against touch AC with +6d6 damage per hit...it's really sad ToB is banned, otherwise I'd be trying to work in Stormguard Warrior with Double Toss for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Hehehehe, yeah, yours was the most cogent explanation. It's from an old post, one that got locked in the Tiny Upheaval. I can't think of any way to get those flaws out of there, despite the fact that we have not one, but two shuffle-worthy feats in the build, they just come up a bit too late really.

EDIT: I got those flaws out of there, but now the build is totally unplayable at any real table. Oops.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Something else you might consider, Amon, would be a Ghost (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10975.0)/Master of the Unseen Hand - it's a sort of mêlée/ranged hybrid, in that you telekinetically wield multiple mêlée weapons and attack with them out to the edge of your telekinesis range.

I'll see if I can dig up the Master of the Unseen Hand I played a couple of years ago, though it didn't feature Ghost so it'll have to be adapted. Also, Doc Roc/Glyph, any ideas for such a build?

Edit: Oh yeah, the justification for such a build! It's very flavorful, you're a Ghost who, via telekinesis, wields weapons, kinda like a super-poltergeist. It's also a build which scales well, in that you can deal moderate damage to crazy damage, depending on how much you optimize it.

[amonstarblade]

ok i have started make the equipment say me ani suggestion
+5 cloack of resistence (ST) 37K
+6 circlet of Wisdom 36k
+6 bracerst of con 36K
pay 5 wishes for getting +5 wis 125k
+5sometnihg somentgih somentingh leather armor 100k
7 +1 returning dagger 56k
3xday activeted use chained GMW CL 20 10k
+6 dex gloves 36k
+6 cha shirt 36k
+5 deviation AC ring 50k
+5 natural armor ring 50k
+5 Luck AC amulet 62k
battle belt if Dm approve it (about 70K if i remeber

we are about 703k/760 k wath else i should buy?


the ghost concept is not bad... any more dettalied information?

[Doc Roc]

ok i have started make the equipment say me ani suggestion
+5 cloack of resistence (ST) 37K
+6 circlet of Wisdom 36k
+6 bracerst of con 36K
pay 5 wishes for getting +5 wis 125k
+5sometnihg somentgih somentingh leather armor 100k
7 +1 returning dagger 56k
3xday activeted use chained GMW CL 20 10k
+6 dex gloves 36k
+6 cha shirt 36k
+5 deviation AC ring 50k
+5 natural armor ring 50k
+5 Luck AC amulet 62k
battle belt if Dm approve it (about 70K if i remeber

we are about 703k/760 k wath else i should buy?


the ghost concept is not bad... any more dettalied information?

Belt of battle is 12k

[amonstarblade]

Belt of battle is 12k

really? so broken.... i can buy other 7 dagger then for a devastating round....

[Kalaska'Agathas]

the ghost concept is not bad... any more dettalied information?

Well, I'm having trouble finding my Master of the Unseen Hand (it's on an external hard-drive somewhere) but a little google has found these:

Jean Grey, a Wu Jen based MotUH (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/X-mens_Jean_Grey,_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH)

Rules for Ghosts (useful if you go that route) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041012a)

The Ghost Savage Progression, if you can convince your DM to allow some website material (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

Basically, the trick is to get your telekinesis to function for as many targets (i.e. weapons) as possible, and then go to town with them. This is why the build scales so well - one full attack is normal, two is pretty awesome, fifteen is game breaking, etc.

[amonstarblade]

ok it's cool but... i'm miss somthing or you do just the weapon damage? if so even with 21 full attack would be...84 attack let say 84d8 if everyone hits... but the problem is that even if i hit with all 84 attack (that i doubt) this will be 84d8 if him is just a stupid barbaria with 4/- this mean by average like 42 damage...[42 times 0 damge (4-4) + 42 times 1 damage (5-4) ]

[Eldariel]

For my own edification, mostly... Not suitable for low-op. Did I miss anything, legality wise, glyph?

Elf Of Some Flavor
Lawful Good
Bard 4/Swiftblade 4/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade 5/Abjurant Champion 3
Flaw: Vulnerable
1: Dodge
3: Mobility
Say: "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu"
Wish For Wealth To Pay For:
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Shortbow -> Point Blank Shot
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Longsword-> Precise Shot
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Long Bow-> Versatile Spellcaster
Chaos Shuffle: Martial Prof:Rapier -> Weapon Focus(Short Bow)
Drakehelm(1st level) For Trapsmith Haste
~38k Should Cover It! How Convenient!
6: Practiced Spellcaster

You can do the standard manner Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4 without anything major. It doesn't get Swiftblade but it at least gets Cha to damage (Divine Might) and AC's "Burn Spell For To Hit" which does work with bowz unlike Arcane Strike so we can derive all the basics off Charisma should we so desire. And since you have Power Attack out of necessity, you can pull basic good stuff with that too. Obvious stuff like BAB 16, full casting and that's a given, of course.

And of course, we have Polymorph-access to Arrow Demon (conveniently, Star Elves, the race you want anyways for racial Cha-bonus, qualifies for Otherworldly; though on these levels we could of course use Shapechange instead but if making for a progression character, it's potentially worthwhile especially since it covers us with MWPs too).

Gets you basic PBS - Precise - Rapid - WF - PA - Divine Might - Combat Casting - Woodland Archer - Smiting Spell or so (prolly wantz Practiced Spellcaster). There's even an extra floating free level you could do anything with (since Bard 8 is unnecessary).

[Doc Roc]

You can do the standard manner Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4 without anything major. It doesn't get Swiftblade but it at least gets Cha to damage (Divine Might) and AC's "Burn Spell For To Hit" which does work with bowz unlike Arcane Strike so we can derive all the basics off Charisma should we so desire. And since you have Power Attack out of necessity, you can pull basic good stuff with that too. Obvious stuff like BAB 16, full casting and that's a given, of course.

And of course, we have Polymorph-access to Arrow Demon (conveniently, Star Elves, the race you want anyways for racial Cha-bonus, qualifies for Otherworldly; though on these levels we could of course use Shapechange instead but if making for a progression character, it's potentially worthwhile especially since it covers us with MWPs too).

Gets you basic PBS - Precise - Rapid - WF - PA - Divine Might - Combat Casting - Woodland Archer - Smiting Spell or so (prolly wantz Practiced Spellcaster). There's even an extra floating free level you could do anything with (since Bard 8 is unnecessary).

On the other hand, we're pulling down a free standard every turn with swiftblade, and the adjusted form gets 9th level spells. We could enter swift a little later, and probably ease the legality of the build considerably. Our primary interest in Sblade is that juicy spare action.

[The Glyphstone]

ok it's cool but... i'm miss somthing or you do just the weapon damage? if so even with 21 full attack would be...84 attack let say 84d8 if everyone hits... but the problem is that even if i hit with all 84 attack (that i doubt) this will be 84d8 if him is just a stupid barbaria with 4/- this mean by average like 42 damage...[42 times 0 damge (4-4) + 42 times 1 damage (5-4) ]

Usually, you don't wield Medium Longswords (that'd deal 1d8 per hit). You "wield", say, Colossal Greataxes that deal 8d6/hit.

I'm not sure how you make multiple full attacks with multiple weapons, though, it's not a MotUH ability.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Usually, you don't wield Medium Longswords (that'd deal 1d8 per hit). You "wield", say, Colossal Greataxes that deal 8d6/hit.

I'm not sure how you make multiple full attacks with multiple weapons, though, it's not a MotUH ability.

Chain TK to multiple weapons, I think, is the argument. The other thing you can do with Chain TK is build an insane Grappler or Tripper or Bull Rusher or whatever. Locking down multiple targets with grappling is pretty fun as well.

[Eldariel]

On the other hand, we're pulling down a free standard every turn with swiftblade, and the adjusted form gets 9th level spells. We could enter swift a little later, and probably ease the legality of the build considerably. Our primary interest in Sblade is that juicy spare action.

It is stronger, no doubt; it's just that we have to jump quite a few hoops to get there while a more basic build still offers up with full 9s with no casting levels lost, and some minor bonuses like Cha to damage (for Cha rounds per day, at any rate).

I propose a full caster shell is quite formidable at maximum level even without 3.0 Haste, though; we can still generate extra actions with e.g. Shapechange to make use of our Imbue Arrow while full attacking for the hell of it to our heart's content.

[Doc Roc]

It is stronger, no doubt; it's just that we have to jump quite a few hoops to get there while a more basic build still offers up with full 9s with no casting levels lost, and some minor bonuses like Cha to damage (for Cha rounds per day, at any rate).

I propose a full caster shell is quite formidable at maximum level even without 3.0 Haste, though; we can still generate extra actions with e.g. Shapechange to make use of our Imbue Arrow while full attacking for the hell of it to our heart's content.

I approve this message.

[TechnOkami]

...are homebrews allowed?

[amonstarblade]

one last question.... wich domain is good with this Pc (cleric/scout/ranger/master trower)

[The Glyphstone]

One is Travel, which you will immediately swap out for Travel Devotion. The other is up to you, but pick something that doesn't depend on Cleric level. Magic would be fantastic to let you use wands without UMD.