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Cipher Stars
2011-05-24, 06:01 PM
The Force Adept
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo67/pus2meong/Star%20Wars/warriorgirls-74.jpg
"Wheres the Cookies?" ~Tim, Force Adept apprentice.
"Ah.. that..was a lie" ~Chuck Force Adeptis
"damn..."
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|
Lightsaber Crafting|
2|
1|
1

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|
Force Push|
2|
1|
1

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|
Leap|
2|
1|
1

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|
Bonus Feat|
2|
1|
1

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|
Weapon Focus|
4|
2|
1

6th|
+6/1|
+2|
+5|
+5|
Force Choke|
4|
2|
1

7th|
+7/2|
+2|
+5|
+5|
Dodge|
4|
2|
1

8th|
+8/3|
+2|
+6|
+6|
Bonus Feat|
4|
2|
2

9th|
+9/4|
+3|
+6|
+6|
Psionic Weapon|
6|
3|
2

10th|
+10/5|
+3|
+7|
+7|
Force Burst|
6|
3|
2

11th|
+11/6/1|
+3|
+7|
+7|
Warp|
6|
3|
2

12th|
+12/7/2|
+4|
+8|
+8|
Bonus Feat|
6|
3|
2

13th|
+13/8/3|
+4|
+8|
+8|
Deep Impact|
8|
4|
2

14th|
+14/9/4|
+4|
+9|
+9|
Force Crush|
8|
4|
2

15th|
+15/10/5|
+5|
+9|
+9|
Walls|
8|
4|
3

16th|
+16/11/6/1|
+5|
+10|
+10|
Bonus Feat|
8|
4|
3

17th|
+17/12/7/2|
+5|
+10|
+10|
Greater Psionic Weapon|
10|
5|
3

18th|
+18/13/8/3|
+6|
+11|
+11|
Force Lightning|
10|
5|
3

19th|
+19/14/9/4|
+6|
+11|
+11|
Hover|
10|
5|
3

20th|
+20/15/10/5|
+6|
+12|
+12|
Bonus Feat|
10|
5|
3[/table]

Hit Dice: d8
Skill Points: 6+Int (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Psicraft, Search. Sense Motive. Slight of hand, Spot, Tumble
Alignment:
Force Adept, despite their movie representations, can be of any alignment besides Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil. Though they can become so after taking levels in Force Adept, but cannot continue progression until they change alignment to available alignments. As no one lawful good would delve into the darker energies of the force, and Chaotic Evil wouldn't put up with the structure of the dark side.
Special:
Force Adept are considered Psionic beings, and have 1 power point. So they may obtain Psionic feats and become Psionically focused.

Class Features:
Weapons and Armor:
Force Adept are proficient with Light and Medium armor, but not shields.
Force Adept are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and the exotic weapon; Lightsaber.

Lightsaber Crafting:
a Force Adept creates their own lightsaber. To do so, they must gather the components. (usually all are negligible save for the Crystal, and the metal used for the handle).
Craft: Lightsaber DC is 15 (Green) DC 20 (blue) DC 25 (purple) DC 30 (Red) DC 40 (Yellow)
1: 1d6, 19-20 x2 Illumination (lightsaber emits dim light within 10 feet)
3: 1d8, 19-20 x3
6: 2d4, 18-20 x3 Hits incorporeal.
9: 1d10, 18-20 x4
12: 1d12. 17-20 x4 Ignores armor, natural armor, and first 20 of hardness.
15: 2d6, 17-20 x4
18: 2d8, 16-20 x4 Hits ethereal.
20: 1d20, 15-20 x4
Crafting a lightsaber takes only 24 hours once materials are gather, assuming you don't have to forge any of the metal yourself. Otherwise its just assembling it correctly and/or modifying as needed with your better craft skill at higher ranks.
Lightsaber's are treated as Longswords for things related to longswords. Unless the Force Adept has a Lightsaber crafting of 10 ranks, when they can craft it into any martial weapon (This doesn't confer much bonuses besides things such as Reach) at 23 ranks, you can craft it as any exotic weapon. Lightsabers weight 5lbs, Lightsabers use Dexterity rather then Strength to land the quickest, most accurate blows for the most effect, rather then trying to force a hunk of steel into someones flesh, and cannot be enchanted in any way.
Metals used in its creation vary and don't effect results much besides weight. This is typically all the weight comes from, not much else. So lighter metals are usually used, but some prefer tougher, stronger metals. Price here depends on chosen metal.
Focusing components, various lenses (or bits of clearstone if glass isn't something in your campaign) used to focus the energies from the crystal. usually have to be specially made. 400gp including services for crafting and bits of raw stone and metals to give to the craftsman. (usually a jewler, for the fine precise work in making thin wiring and cutting the clearstone into shape.)
the crystal itself is rare. You may find it in jewlery once in a while, but by then its been processed to much or is cut to small for use. You can buy Green and Blue crystals for 1,000gp (green) or 3,000gp (blue). If your in a large, wealthy city you might be able to find a purple for 100,000gp. Red crystals are exceptionally rare and you must go on a quest to find one, or special order one somehow for 600,000gp. Yellow crystals are nearly unheard of outside of legends. Special quest required. Usually extraplanar as many worlds wouldn't even have a single shard.
Other unique crystals may exist (Special DM creations) that would require quests, or rare occasional finds.

The Colors: Every color carries benefits of previous colors, + its own.
Green: Standard, no bonus.
Blue: Extra 1 damage per die.
Purple: add +1d6 Fire- damage on crit.
Red: Re-roll 1's on damage die.
Yellow: Cut through magical walls and effects, including force wall and the like.
Silver: Make an attack roll vs magic/Psionic attacks. If you beat the attack or spell DC with your own attack roll. You negate the effect.

Bonus Feats:
from Fighter Bonus.

Maneuvers:
Shadow Hand
Stone Dragon
and Diamond Mind only.
Recovers at the end of an encounter, or one maneuver as a free action once per round.

Force Push
The Force Adept can make an attack roll using their intelligence modifier +1/2 Force Adept levels. For every five points you beat their Reflex save they are pushed five feet, taking damage for anything they hit. They continue to be pushed as long as the force can break through what ever they hit on the way, Every five feet, decrease your attack roll by 2 for and use that to see if you break through.
Usable Force Adept levels +int mod times a day.

Leap
when Psionically focused the Force Adept adds her class levels to Jump and Tumble checks.

Weapon Focus:
Force Adept gains Weapon focus, Lightsaber.

Force Choke
The Force Adept suddenly blocks the airways of a subject, if they fail a fortitude save they begin to suffocate. DC = 10+1/2 Force Adept levels, +Int Mod. This check can be repeated each round. If they fail the check by 5 or more, they don't get a save for 1 round per 5 they fail by. DC increases by 2 for each failed save.
Usable Force Adept levels +int mod times a day. Range: As long as you can accurately see them.

Dodge
When Psionically focused the Force Adept gains 1/4th her class levels as an insight bonus to AC.

Psionic Weapon:
Force Adept gains Psionic Weapon, with the Lightsaber.

Force Burst
As force Push, but effects all within 20 feet, even allies.
Usable Force Adept levels +int mod times a day.

Warp
When Psionically focused Force Adept's speed increases by 10 feet, and the Force Adept can choose to expend her psionic focus to make half the movement a teleport. For ye weirdos, Thats move half speed, teleport the rest, Can't teleport the first half. and you Must move half speed Before teleporting.

Deep Impact:
Force Adept gains deep impact, when using the Lightsaber.

Force Crush
As Force Choke, but they also take 1d6/Force Adept level bludgeoning damage each round and the DC increases to 15 +1/2 Force Adept levels, +Int mod.
Usable Force Adept levels +int mod times a day.

Walls
When psionically focused the Force Adept can walk on walls as easily as the ground. Must end on a horizontal surface. If she also has the Up the Walls feat, benefits stack to further potency and she does not have to end on a horizontal surface.

Greater Psionic Weapon:
Force Adept gains Greater Psionic Weapon when using the Lightsaber.

Force Adept Lightning
As force push, but the force is visible as a deadly, splintering blast of lightning. in addition to previous effects of Force Push, it deals 1d8 Lightning and Force damage per Force Adept level on a failed save.
Usable Force Adept levels +int mod times a day.

Hover
When Psionically focused the Force Adept can hover, remaining a foot above the ground. Her speed increases by 20 feet and she ignores certain difficult terrains such as ice slicks, and can hover over water. By expending Psionic Focus, you can gain a fly speed equal to land speed (perfect) until the end of your next turn.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-25, 04:19 PM
Ah. I didn't directly ask for comments on how to improve in the Title, that must be why no ones telling me how bad it is.

Agent_0042
2011-05-25, 04:25 PM
What power list does it pull from? How many and what disciplines does it get? What stats does it use for bonus PP, power DCs, maneuver DCs? What's it's maneuver recovery method? What options does it have for bonus feats? What are the full stats for the lightsaber?

I mean, all you have is a framework of contextless numbers. There's nothing substantial here for people to comment on or criticize.

Zaydos
2011-05-25, 04:29 PM
Honestly I thought you hadn't finished.

Balance Point: What are they meant to compare with? Wizards? Psions? Psychic Warriors? Warblades? Barbarians? Fighters? Monks?

Psionics: What stat do they use? Why do they get higher level psionic powers than Psychic Warriors? I'd advice something closer to a Psychic Warrior's progression than a psion. Also, at least in the movies, they have nothing to compare to high level spells/powers (in the games and later books they seem to toggle between 9th level characters and "I can destroy solar systems with a thought").

Maneuvers: What disciplines do they have access to? What's their recovery method?

Bonus Feats: What feats can they choose from?

Lightsaber: As written it has no crafting time, or crafting cost so they can just get materials and make checks till they succeed. Also critical hit chance is way to high. DC 40, assuming Int +0 and no magic, can be made at level 15 with 20 attempts. With magic items borrowed from the wizard/psion this goes to 12th level. Then you enchant it (or take Improved Critical as a feat) and you have an 50% chance of x4 damage. Skill Focus, an actual Int bonus, an allied marshal, spells could get them having this far earlier. Don't tie lightsaber power to a skill check, base it off of character level at least or class level.

Seerow
2011-05-25, 04:34 PM
I think you forgot to post half your class then started wondering why people aren't commenting on it.

Welknair
2011-05-25, 06:27 PM
Wait, how are you fluffing the Lightsaber?

Could you instead go with a Flameblade device? Just slap a Flameblade Runestone onto a CL 5 Arcane Power Tapestry with a low-cap (likely 5) battery with a charging crystal or two and you got yourself a bonafide lightsaber.

Edit: Ignore the above if you don't know what Magitech is.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-25, 07:28 PM
Wait, how are you fluffing the Lightsaber?

Could you instead go with a Flameblade device? Just slap a Flameblade Runestone onto a CL 5 Arcane Power Tapestry with a low-cap (likely 5) battery with a charging crystal or two and you got yourself a bonafide lightsaber.

Edit: Ignore the above if you don't know what Magitech is.

I do, barely. The copy book I got containing it was rather blurry so I skimmed really...
But I get the idea.
Its already not to Sith like. But thats just the general idea to pass along.

EDIT:

Oh. and theres already Lightsabers really. Their just brilliant energy weapons. with the whole blades all energy, ignores armor. ect

Welknair
2011-05-25, 09:13 PM
I do, barely. The copy book I got containing it was rather blurry so I skimmed really...
But I get the idea.


Huh. That's really weird. Did it actually mention that stuff I was just yabbering?


And I didn't know that the power of a Jedi/Sith's lightsaber scaled with level... Then again, I guess that's kinda necessary for D&D.

Zaydos
2011-05-25, 09:17 PM
Huh. That's really weird. Did it actually mention that stuff I was just yabbering?


And I didn't know that the power of a Jedi/Sith's lightsaber scaled with level... Then again, I guess that's kinda necessary for D&D.

They did in the StarWars d20 game; got up to 6d8 (with careful PrC dipping you could get 7d8 in the core book).

Bounty Hunters were better.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-25, 10:09 PM
Would anyone prefer removing Psionics for more.. custom class features?

EDIT: well, I'm doing it...

Edit2:

I love it!

umbrapolaris
2011-05-26, 09:17 AM
Would anyone prefer removing Psionics for more.. custom class features?

EDIT: well, I'm doing it...

Edit2:

I love it!

Psychic Warrior powers + mindblade + some monk abilities should be a good jedi/sith

Seerow
2011-05-26, 09:55 AM
Psychic Warrior powers + mindblade + some monk abilities should be a good jedi/sith

Full Psychic Warrior powers probably go a bit too far, I don't know of any Jedi that become huge tentacle creatures. Psychic Warriors tend to do that.

hamishspence
2011-05-26, 02:48 PM
I'm told that in The Old Republic, you can play light-side Sith (and dark-side Jedi) so I'm OK with the alignment.

Hyooz
2011-05-26, 04:55 PM
Chassis: Really strong chassis. 3/4 BAB is made up for by the Lightsaber (by a long ways, but I'll get there later), with 2 good saves, 6 + Int skills, and a strong skill list. d8 hit die is the closest thing to a downside, but that's average more than bad.

Alignment Restrictions: No LG or CE strikes me as random and a touch arbitrary. Might want to call the class "Force Adept" or something more generic because "Sith" carries with it a lot of assumed information. No idea why CE would be excluded either way. "The structure of the dark side" doesn't make much sense, and just isn't a thing. The Dark Side is about passion and emotion. The fluff descriptions in general seem to be a mix of the Sith race, Sith organization, and Sith as dark side users.


I'm told that in The Old Republic, you can play light-side Sith (and dark-side Jedi) so I'm OK with the alignment.

It's worth noting that, in The Old Republic, Sith are a faction, effectively. Not an "Order" like the class seems more interested in representing. So that's why you can be light-side. Like how in WoW the Horde aren't all bad guys.

Proficiencies: Good proficiencies here. Keeps their defenses up, and the baller Lightsaber proficiency.

Lightsaber Crafting: Woo... man.

First off, you should specify how much the special components would cost. A crystal and metal is pretty meaningless. Problem is, determining a fair price for these things, since lightsabers are kind of nuts. I don't say that about weapons a lot, but even if it were only a free Brilliant Energy+ enchantment, these would be crazy. The boosted damage and crit range, too? Yikes. It's worth a party member dipping Sith just to get these for everyone. Non-proficiency isn't even an issue, that's all of a -4 to hit.

You also need to be more specific about what bonuses/whatnot carry over when you make a Light-longspear or Light-spiked chain. Final note: ridiculously powerful. You get a free +4 weapon enchantment (a better version of it, no less, since it still hurts undead and other non-living things) and can make these to your heart's content.

Maneuvers: The discipline choices seem ok. Stone Dragon sticks out the most from a "sith" theme. Biggest concern? The recover mechanic. Might as well not have one. A free action 1/round? That means you are never, ever down a maneuver. You never need to make a choice as to what to use. Used a maneuver this round? Just recover it afterward. Need a different one? Switch it out for free. This is the best recover mechanic, like, ever.

Force Push will never have a reliably relevant DC. Without doing its own damage, you're better off just using a maneuver. That costs you nothing to use, and is essentially guaranteed to work. Also I have no idea what kind of action this is. Standard? Move? Supernatural? Extraordinary?

Leap is just kind of there. It's fine. Need to specify what type the bonus is.

Force Choke needs rewording. Do they get to hold their breath when this is happening? If so, this is pretty pointless, since it'll take for-friggin'-ever to kill/hurt anything with it. If they don't get to hold their breath, it's OP. One failed save = unconscious, two = disabled, three = dead.

Warp's wording needs fixing. Half the movement is a teleport? That doesn't mean anything. What, specifically, can they do with this, what is avoided, what can still happen to them, etc.

Force Crush is whatever. Likely more useful to just use another maneuver than stand still choking someone forever (or doesn't matter anyway since they're already dead on the ground.)

Walls is cool enough. Though, the way its worded, you could end on the ceiling, assuming its not a sloped ceiling.

Force Lightning is... whuh? When does the lightning affect them? Just... using force push on them? When they fail related saves? Because doing 18d8 Lightning + 18d8 Force damage (which is how this functions the way it's currently worded) with no save (or even with a save) is nothing to sneeze at.

Hover is so incredibly underwhelming I almost fell asleep. At 19th level, you can mimic the effects of a second level spell... almost. Admittedly, I probably took this class for the lightsaber and maneuver refresh mechanic and PrC'd out ASAP to warblade, but this is a really sad way to reward someone going all the way through your class.

Overall: it's an incredibly mixed bag of WTF powerful stuff and class abilities that are literally impossible to use as written. I recommend doing some reading over of official classes and other people's homebrew to get a feel for how things need to be worded and what information needs to be contained in any given class ability. Until then, it's a stellar one level dip. That's... about it.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-27, 04:05 AM
Alignment Restrictions: No LG or CE strikes me as random and a touch arbitrary. Might want to call the class "Force Adept" or something more generic because "Sith" carries with it a lot of assumed information. No idea why CE would be excluded either way. "The structure of the dark side" doesn't make much sense, and just isn't a thing. The Dark Side is about passion and emotion. The fluff descriptions in general seem to be a mix of the Sith race, Sith organization, and Sith as dark side users.



I wanted to make a sith, but it dwindled and dwindled until really only the name remained... changing.


You also need to be more specific about what bonuses/whatnot carry over when you make a Light-longspear or Light-spiked chain.


I did. I said its all the same save for things such as reach. Their already sorta considered small weapons, as its just a hilt until you activate them. But things like pull arms or spiked chains, whips. They could all make nice Light- things. Making trip attempts doesn't make much sense with a thing of energy. So asside from cool factor, Light-Scythes won't be very beneficial...


Maneuvers: The discipline choices seem ok. Stone Dragon sticks out the most from a "sith" theme. Biggest concern? The recover mechanic. Might as well not have one. A free action 1/round? That means you are never, ever down a maneuver. You never need to make a choice as to what to use. Used a maneuver this round? Just recover it afterward. Need a different one? Switch it out for free. This is the best recover mechanic, like, ever.

Well, there is one class that recovers ALL maneuvers as a swift action...


Force Push will never have a reliably relevant DC.

What?


Leap is just kind of there. It's fine. Need to specify what type the bonus is.

Force Choke needs rewording. Do they get to hold their breath when this is happening?

Wouldn't make much sense. Its not like they exactly can. Your blocking airways from affar. there isn't really much warning.


Warp's wording needs fixing. Half the movement is a teleport? That doesn't mean anything. What, specifically, can they do with this, what is avoided, what can still happen to them, etc.

Walls is cool enough. Though, the way its worded, you could end on the ceiling, assuming its not a sloped ceiling.

Its worded pretty much the same as ":up the Walls" only an ass of a player would try to end their turn on a ceiling ingame.



Force Lightning is... whuh? When does the lightning affect them? Just... using force push on them? When they fail related saves? Because doing 18d8 Lightning + 18d8 Force damage (which is how this functions the way it's currently worded) with no save (or even with a save) is nothing to sneeze at.

Ye. but by that level a wizard could have equally potent effects or what not.

edit. damn, I really screwed up the Quotes.

Dryad
2011-05-27, 05:53 AM
I honestly think this class does a bit too much...
Everything.

I mean; it can deal damage as a full caster, can join the melee as good as a swordsage, but even better because their weapon deals 10(?)d4 damage per attack, and weighs nothing, and can easily be changed to be a light weapon.

In addition, a lot of abilities are very unclear in their wording.

Anyway; if I were you, I'd definitely tone down the lightsaber damage, following the monk's table (but less powerful than the monk's Unarmed Strike damage, obviously). Make it use less dice, as well. d4s are awesome for averages, of course, but add manoeuvres to the mix, and you'll just keep rolling and adding those dice... Maybe fun at first, but it gets old quickly.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-27, 01:25 PM
Why would I want my blade of energy to do less then some guys fist?
I'll change the die though. I'm fond of d4's but I guess it is a bit much when ya gotta keep'em rolling.

Zaydos
2011-05-27, 03:59 PM
The crit chance still breaks things. 30% chance of crit (average damage with blue crystal 23 + Str + Power Attack vs Touch AC all that x4) upped to 60% with one feat means average damage at Lv 20 is 186.8 per hit (~600 with a full attack) before you start using maneuvers and charges.

The crit chance needs to be quite a bit lower, honestly 19-20/x4 is extremely lethal.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-27, 05:15 PM
The crit chance still breaks things. 30% chance of crit (average damage with blue crystal 23 + Str + Power Attack vs Touch AC all that x4) upped to 60% with one feat means average damage at Lv 20 is 186.8 per hit (~600 with a full attack) before you start using maneuvers and charges.

The crit chance needs to be quite a bit lower, honestly 19-20/x4 is extremely lethal.


Yes I did the math (and only got 160 for max rolls, though without feats or anything and on a crit). At level twenty, at least in our games, Thats low enough. One punk dealt 1300 damage in a full attack...
Another had a scythe that they managed to get a crit range of 5 on. Wait! I think those were the same person.

I don't see how dealing a bit of damage like that is to much for a twentieth level character.

xD wait, I think were level thirty.
Still...

YouLostMe
2011-05-27, 07:50 PM
I like the idea of a force adept, but some of the shenanigans are a little off. Like Shadow Hand maneuvers, which means that force adepts can teleport if they want to (@[email protected]). I recommend seeking out a homebrew discipline of some kind for that.

There are also those whole lightsaber-creation shenanigans. I do believe that all the bad guys use red lightsabers, good guy trainees use blue, and masters use green. Mace Windu uses purple and he's like the greatest jedi in the world... so why the hierarchy?

Cipher Stars
2011-05-27, 08:07 PM
I like the idea of a force adept, but some of the shenanigans are a little off. Like Shadow Hand maneuvers, which means that force adepts can teleport if they want to (@[email protected]). I recommend seeking out a homebrew discipline of some kind for that.

There are also those whole lightsaber-creation shenanigans. I do believe that all the bad guys use red lightsabers, good guy trainees use blue, and masters use green. Mace Windu uses purple and he's like the greatest jedi in the world... so why the hierarchy?


I'm separating the colors from the movie mostly to avoid Starwars fanatics who go off on "Well, That can't be possible because xx happened in xx ep xx or book xx"
Green crystals just contain less energy then a Yellow or Silver crystal, for example.

Zaydos
2011-05-27, 09:12 PM
Yes I did the math (and only got 160 for max rolls, though without feats or anything and on a crit). At level twenty, at least in our games, Thats low enough. One punk dealt 1300 damage in a full attack...
Another had a scythe that they managed to get a crit range of 5 on. Wait! I think those were the same person.

I don't see how dealing a bit of damage like that is to much for a twentieth level character.

xD wait, I think were level thirty.
Still...

This is without maximized ubercharging which can multiply it by quite a bit. Actually with 1 level in Barbarian for Pounce the numbers I used for charge damage could be trippled due to pounce. The problem isn't doing a little bit of damage it's doing damage several times greater than anything other than an uber-charger.

And Lightning Maces for even more attacks to multiply the damage several fold. When with a single full-attack you can kill anything in any Monster Manual at will all day, and can teleport via maneuvers there are problems.

Or to put it another way it means they deal about x3 or more damage compared to everyone else with equal optimization. This is not a good idea.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-27, 10:11 PM
This is without maximized ubercharging which can multiply it by quite a bit. Actually with 1 level in Barbarian for Pounce the numbers I used for charge damage could be trippled due to pounce. The problem isn't doing a little bit of damage it's doing damage several times greater than anything other than an uber-charger.

And Lightning Maces for even more attacks to multiply the damage several fold. When with a single full-attack you can kill anything in any Monster Manual at will all day, and can teleport via maneuvers there are problems.

Or to put it another way it means they deal about x3 or more damage compared to everyone else with equal optimization. This is not a good idea.



very well...

1: 1d6, 19-20 x2 Illumination (lightsaber emits dim light within 10 feet)
3: 1d8, 19-20 x3
6: 2d4, 18-20 x3 Hits incorporeal.
9: 1d10, 18-20 x4
12: 1d12. 17-20 x4 Ignores armor, natural armor, and first 20 of hardness.
15: 2d6, 17-20 x4
18: 2d8, 16-20 x4 Hits ethereal.
20: 1d20, 15-20 x4

Dryad
2011-05-28, 12:41 PM
Why should it deal less damage than a monk's attack?
Well; for a few reasons:
A: The most important reason: The Monk's damage is unique. By granting a lightsaber BETTER damage, you're basically killing the main class feature of an already relatively weak class.
B: The Monk doesn't get enhancement lens colours.
C: The Monk doesn't get manoeuvres.
D: The Monk's unarmed strike will never get a crit multiplier of more than x2, and the crit range is 20; even with Improved Critical, you're looking at a 10% crit chance rather than a 30% crit chance (50% with Improved Critical).

I understand you want to make the class the coolest as can be, and awesomely powerful, but if you can make it awesome without making it more powerful than a core class, then you've really succeeded.
Also: Don't try to balance the class so that it can keep up with a munchkin when played by a non-munchkin player. There will always be people who look for every single whole in the rules to make their character top of the pops and unbeatable; don't make the mistake of taking those people as the 'average damage output' to balance your own class around.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 10:20 AM
I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like a noob here, but...what exactly is "Favored Weapon, Lightsaber"? You didn't say it was as a bonus feat, so I guess it's not a feat, but you didn't explain the class feature either.

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 11:12 AM
Ehehehehe I didn't even notice that. I'm pretty sure Cipherthe3vil meant to Weapon Focus (Lightsaber) or something of the sort.

Favored weapons are only in relation to deities. I don't know how I missed that.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 12:08 PM
Ehehehehe I didn't even notice that. I'm pretty sure Cipherthe3vil meant to Weapon Focus (Lightsaber) or something of the sort.

Favored weapons are only in relation to deities. I don't know how I missed that.

I thought that at first too, but she has the class gaining Weapon Focus (Lightsaber) two levels before the Favored Weapon class feature, and Weapon Specialization (Lightsaber) 4 levels after it. So it's not either of those.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 01:54 PM
No. That was just a mistake I guess, I don't remember wanting favored weapon, Must have looked at a different name then the description I read.
though I don't remember what I was looking for anymore... :smallconfused:
This class is fail anyway. I'll be sure to not fail so much with the next.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 01:59 PM
Why should it deal less damage than a monk's attack?
Well; for a few reasons:
A: The most important reason: The Monk's damage is unique. By granting a lightsaber BETTER damage, you're basically killing the main class feature of an already relatively weak class.
B: The Monk doesn't get enhancement lens colours.
C: The Monk doesn't get manoeuvres.
D: The Monk's unarmed strike will never get a crit multiplier of more than x2, and the crit range is 20; even with Improved Critical, you're looking at a 10% crit chance rather than a 30% crit chance (50% with Improved Critical).

I understand you want to make the class the coolest as can be, and awesomely powerful, but if you can make it awesome without making it more powerful than a core class, then you've really succeeded.
Also: Don't try to balance the class so that it can keep up with a munchkin when played by a non-munchkin player. There will always be people who look for every single whole in the rules to make their character top of the pops and unbeatable; don't make the mistake of taking those people as the 'average damage output' to balance your own class around.


Core classes are lame anyway and are outshined by alternate source material, such as Complete Warrior.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 02:01 PM
Core classes are lame anyway and are outshined by alternate source material, such as Complete Warrior.

I agree. I think she's trying to balance it higher, like tier 3 or tier 2. The monk is pretty low on the totem pole, and she doesn't have to concern herself with overshadowing it completely if she's trying to make a class more on par with a warblade, etc anyway.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 02:30 PM
I agree. I think she's trying to balance it higher, like tier 3 or tier 2. The monk is pretty low on the totem pole, and she doesn't have to concern herself with overshadowing it completely if she's trying to make a class more on par with a warblade, etc anyway.


I think the main thing with monk fists is the number of attacks anyway. There are plenty of things better then a monks fist without the five...six+ or so monk hits anyway.

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 04:23 PM
This class is fail anyway. I'll be sure to not fail so much with the next.

I demand you halt your negativism immediately.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 04:27 PM
I demand you halt your negativism immediately.

Indeed. Other than that one strange class feature, I really enjoyed all the thought and uniqueness of the class. And it's nice to see a weapon other than a mindblade or an unarmed strike that scales with level. And scaling crit is something I've never seen in a base class.

It's a great piece of homebrew, and I look forward to when it's done. It's well done and flavorful.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 04:31 PM
Indeed. Other than that one strange class feature, I really enjoyed all the thought and uniqueness of the class. And it's nice to see a weapon other than a mindblade or an unarmed strike that scales with level. And scaling crit is something I've never seen in a base class.

It's a great piece of homebrew, and I look forward to when it's done. It's well done and flavorful.

Your referring to the "Favored Weapon" ?

and I'm pretty sure thats all once its replaced, then done.
In the meantime, check out the Arcane Evaluator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201074) while I find a replacement for "favored weapon" dunno what I was thinking when I put it there.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 04:35 PM
Your referring to the "Favored Weapon" ?

and I'm pretty sure thats all once its replaced, then done.
In the meantime, check out the Arcane Evaluator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201074) while I find a replacement for "favored weapon" dunno what I was thinking when I put it there.

That is what I was referring to, yes. And okay, sure. I'll head over there right now.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 04:37 PM
that was faster then expected. Done already. You'll find three of the weird class features changed into Psionic alternatives; Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Greater Psionic Weapon.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 04:47 PM
that was faster then expected. Done already. You'll find three of the weird class features changed into Psionic alternatives; Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Greater Psionic Weapon.



Deep Impact makes so much sense when you use it with a lightsaber. All in all the finished class looks great. The Arcane Evaluator (though I don't know yet what's 'arcane' about her) is interesting as well.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 06:14 PM
Deep Impact makes so much sense when you use it with a lightsaber. All in all the finished class looks great. The Arcane Evaluator (though I don't know yet what's 'arcane' about her) is interesting as well.

Thanks.

And its arcane... because it sounds cool in addition to magically (or psionically?) seeing the very fibers of reality in the form of numbers and stats, then reaching into it and reforging it to their liking. Kinda like... an artificer... with people... Maybe. I haven't re ad up on artificers.

Dryad
2011-05-29, 08:39 PM
Core classes are lame anyway and are outshined by alternate source material, such as Complete Warrior.
I disagree. I think most alternate source material is 'lame' on the basis that it's simply too powerful.
Encounters can't be fun if everyone can just steam-roll everything, and to be honest: Core classes are already a little too good in that respect.

My personal outlook is: If it can be awesome without being more powerful than core classes, then I'm on to something. If it starts to shove aside core classes completely, then I'm not doing it right.

The game, the encounters, the enemies... They are all balanced around characters with a power equal to those 'lame' core classes.

Hyooz
2011-05-29, 10:02 PM
I disagree. I think most alternate source material is 'lame' on the basis that it's simply too powerful.
Encounters can't be fun if everyone can just steam-roll everything, and to be honest: Core classes are already a little too good in that respect.

My personal outlook is: If it can be awesome without being more powerful than core classes, then I'm on to something. If it starts to shove aside core classes completely, then I'm not doing it right.

The game, the encounters, the enemies... They are all balanced around characters with a power equal to those 'lame' core classes.

Uh... what? Core classes are some of the most unbalanced classes in the game - both ways.

Fighter and Monk are both pretty bad. Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are stupidly powerful. Supplemental base classes, like the Warlock, Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, etc, are considered much more balanced than anything core.

Cipher Stars
2011-05-29, 10:56 PM
I disagree. I think most alternate source material is 'lame' on the basis that it's simply too powerful.
Encounters can't be fun if everyone can just steam-roll everything, and to be honest: Core classes are already a little too good in that respect.

My personal outlook is: If it can be awesome without being more powerful than core classes, then I'm on to something. If it starts to shove aside core classes completely, then I'm not doing it right.

The game, the encounters, the enemies... They are all balanced around characters with a power equal to those 'lame' core classes.


You misunderstand me. I don't so much about power (I don't care if you don't believe me after all the talk of the lightsaber being too much). I care that the only thing the fighter gets is bonus feats and full attack progression, or that the monks only thing going is the flurry. Their all single minded. The Sorcerer, All they get are spells and a familiar. Lame. Wizard is better in that aspect. they get spells, familiar, And can write scrolls.

Dryad
2011-05-29, 11:04 PM
I would agree that in core classes, there are definitely balance issues.
However, many of the third-party classes are so much more powerful even than that.
The Monk and Fighter you say are both pretty bad. However, I view them as pretty good. They're definitely better than, for instance, the sorcerer. The sorcerer might have more potential (9th lvl spells) but throughout a story, the sorcerer is one of those classes that take a back seat.

Clerics are indeed stupidly powerful. Versatile full casters with a high HD, a high BaB, and heavy armour. Wizards take a back-seat for most of the playable levels, though; they are bursty, but run out of fuel quickly and are extremely gear dependent to keep going. (We normally play on a 'low economy scale.' Most monster don't drop things, because they don't have pockets. Hillside barbarians have no use for fancy trinkets. Magic items are rare. Adventurers are nothing but glorified peasants.) Wands, scrolls... These cost lots of money, or lots of down-time. Neither should be readily available as near-infinite resources.

The monk and fighter are pretty good. They're about as powerful as a class should be, if you ask me. At least then, an encounter can still be fun. I don't see the point in making something that is more powerful, to be honest. Why put another nail in the coffin?

Edit:
Cipher: I kind of agree. I say kind of, because there are a few things you seem to overlook.
The Fighter has the ability to customize your class features. That makes it a very versatile class; any combat style you could want, you can make with that set-up. Not all of them equally effective, but you can basically make a list of the bonus feats, rename them 'class features,' and make many, many lists indeed, and you'd have a different class for each list.
The monk has flurry, unarmed damage, the whole acrobatics thing going on, and other nifty flavour things. Furthermore, the monk also gets a few bonus feats so that you can fine-tune on the details of the class.
The sorcerer.. Is not only boring, but sorely lacking in every single respect. They're quite MAD, if you account for the fact that rays and ranged touch attacks require a good Dex, they need a high charisma (a singular stat that doesn't get too much use) and they would like a high con because of the d4 hd. That leaves Str, Wis and Int as remainders. With the 2+int mod skill points, they won't be very bright, either.
And they can't cast worth much, while levelling. Sure; they can cast often, but most of the spells are simply severely underwhelming until you finally get on par with the wizard. So I agree about the sorcerer: It's too much of nothing.
The Cleric, I feel, should be taken down a peg or two on power, but greatly improved on fun. I mean: Spells; that's it? Really?

That's why I mentioned earlier: See how awesome you can make a class without making it powerful. If it's still weak after it's already awesome, you can add some power to it to make it balanced.

Thamior
2011-05-30, 01:12 PM
Just want to say. I logged on for the first time in a year, saw this... and immediately incorporated it into the game I am DMing. Bravo sir, this is a fantastically interesting piece of homebrew here, I will most certainly be checking out your other wares :smallbiggrin:

Cipher Stars
2011-05-30, 01:15 PM
Just want to say. I logged on for the first time in a year, saw this... and immediately incorporated it into the game I am DMing. Bravo sir, this is a fantastically interesting piece of homebrew here, I will most certainly be checking out your other wares :smallbiggrin:


Yay! a repeat customer! (also; I iz female but I guess "Sir" is fine :smallbiggrin: )

And remember people, Just because it says lightsabers and force doesn't mean it can't be added into nearly any game.
The crystals could simply be magic items that create Brilliant Energy weapon effects, and Force isn't "The Force" its just a collection of Force based effects (Like force wall)