PDA

View Full Version : I need a Creative Solution to an Unusual Problem



Vorpalbob
2011-05-24, 06:31 PM
I am currently working on a D20 Modern campaign/campaign setting in which Russia has seceded from the world and raised the younger generations to believe that the outside world does not exist. The highly secretive Party controls and watches all, taking influence from 1984 and a bunch of other things. The PCs will be a group of intrepid rebels who attempt to contact the outside world for help in overthrowing the Party.
[/synopsis]

Here's my problem:
The Party tries to convince the people that there is no violence and there never was. They do have a sizable military, but they try to ensure the people never see any weapons. But, as all governments do, they will occaisionally need to shoot someone. And leave no trace.

I'm having the Party modify all of their weapons to fire caseless rounds, similar to the ones used in the H&K G11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11). That solves the cartridge casings problem, but what about the bullets themselves? You can't ensure that your men will always hit, so something like Glaser ammunition or hollow-points won't work.

I discussed this today with Worira, and he had the idea of ultra-dense biodegradable plastics. Is this at all viable? Could plastic withstand the heat and pressures of a firing chamber?

How can I have my Party soldiers have a heated gun battle, and then leave nothing but footprints?

comicshorse
2011-05-24, 06:34 PM
But they will still be leaving corpses with big holes in them who have obviously died from violence, surely ?

Welknair
2011-05-24, 06:38 PM
I discussed this today with Worira, and he had the idea of ultra-dense biodegradable plastics. Is this at all viable? Could plastic withstand the heat and pressures of a firing chamber?

How can I have my Party soldiers have a heated gun battle, and then leave nothing but footprints?

You're the GM. Your call. If I were you, I'd say that they had perfected the Ice Bullet that melts only minutes after being fired, yet magically doesn't when it's initially fired (As was seen in Mythbusters). But really, anything works.

Vorpalbob
2011-05-24, 06:39 PM
But they will still be leaving corpses with big holes in them who have obviously died from violence, surely ?

It's (relatively) easy to clean up a body & blood, and so long as you don't hand out UV lamps (or whatever they use on CSI) to your citizens, you should be fine! :smalltongue:

arkol
2011-05-24, 06:40 PM
The ice bullet NEEDS a casing IIRC.

comicshorse
2011-05-24, 06:44 PM
Ice bullets would also mean you weren't leaving suspicious bullet sized holes in the walls where you'd missed the target

Severus
2011-05-24, 06:50 PM
What I'd add to the campaign to make it more ominous and to fix this problem is psychics. The party has a small cadre of 'mental cleanup' people. They explain to you that nothing happened here and then you believe them.

You could make the PCs the rare people who the effects wear off quickly. They come to realize something is wrong when they remember something that nobody else does....

Or something like that.

Because otherwise, I don't think it's viable to believe that people could be convinced there is no violence. They'd end up just in life watching a fist fight here or there and the like.

Fhaolan
2011-05-24, 06:53 PM
Or just use over-amped tasers rather than bullets. Better yet, since we're dealing with a fictional universe and are willing to technobabble, say the bullets *are* tasers that literally burn up when they discharge.

Morghen
2011-05-24, 06:59 PM
Flechette ammunition. If you don't have metal armor, you're gonna get torn up.

Historically made of metal (going back to the 1300s), you can say that your Party has a high-tech plastic version. When you hit them with an area-effect pulse of x-rays/microwaves/UV/etc. they melt/decompose into a tiny blob of plastic.

Then the PCs can have a fun time figuring out why they keep finding little blobs of plastic every time somebody gets vanished.

Leeham
2011-05-24, 07:03 PM
I'm sure it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the word to make a box on the side of a gun to catch casings.

Toofey
2011-05-24, 07:59 PM
I think the way that would work in 1984 is that an immediate alarm would be used to clear the area with the person to be taken out dying in the "enemy attack" but as your people don't know there's an outside world the government would have to creates some other regularly occurring threat, to provide a cover for disappearances and to give them a chance to either clean up the area, o4 damage it in a way consistent with their narrative that also eradicated the evidence of actual events.

I think the bigger problem you're going to have is the inherent susceptibility to discovery, that said given common enough occurrences of the threat they use to cover their tracks, this can be handled.
In this world only the stupid, the smart enough to do what they're told and those in power are around in many numbers, which as I'm babbling about it is sounding pretty good to me.

Boci
2011-05-24, 08:05 PM
I think the way that would work in 1984 is that an immediate alarm would be used to clear the area with the person to be taken out dying in the "enemy attack" but as your people don't know there's an outside world the government would have to creates some other regularly occurring threat, to provide a cover for disappearances and to give them a chance to either clean up the area, o4 damage it in a way consistent with their narrative that also eradicated the evidence of actual events.

I think the bigger problem you're going to have is the inherent susceptibility to discovery, that said given common enough occurrences of the threat they use to cover their tracks, this can be handled.
In this world only the stupid, the smart enough to do what they're told and those in power are around in many numbers, which as I'm babbling about it is sounding pretty good to me.

Flash blizards? Minor earthquakes?

Jjeinn-tae
2011-05-24, 08:58 PM
What's white phosphorus leave behind after it's done burning, does it turn into a gas? That might be a good option, Phosphorus rounds in a sheath that disintegrates in the travel through the air in between the target. Could be linked to all sorts of non-violent factors, lightning, minor gas explosion... Gives a distinct garlic smell that could tip the players off.

Or, you could have the weapons not even bullet based, neurotoxins delivered by injection (thus darts) would probably be easily recoverable, have the darts emit light for recovery of missed rounds.

Tvtyrant
2011-05-24, 09:05 PM
Why not have them use air or void bullets? They don't fly very far, but then there would be no chance of anyone finding anything.

Unrealistic in RL? Yes. Usable in a game world? Also yes.

Traab
2011-05-24, 09:07 PM
I was also thinking the toxin route. Make up some deadly fast acting works on skin contact poison, and your peace keepers could be using squirt guns with a deadly effect. Plus, doing it that way gives you an excuse to create some sort of badass all encompassing uniform for them to wear in order for them to not be effected by their poison. Say it breaks down quickly upon exposure to air. They just wait 20 minutes after firing off their latest blast then they can safely get changed at the end of their shift. :p

Jallorn
2011-05-24, 09:12 PM
I dunno if it's legit, but there were bullets on an episode of Castle that dissolved in blood and water. I think they weren't as good of bullets, but they were effective enough at close range. Really though, if they're cleaning up the bodies, they're probably going to be fine cleaning up the bullets too.

Kaervaslol
2011-05-24, 09:55 PM
I don't think those can be issues. In a world where no one has ever seen a gun the presence of a shell in the ground will mean nothing.

Soylent Dave
2011-05-24, 10:24 PM
I don't think those can be issues. In a world where no one has ever seen a gun the presence of a shell in the ground will mean nothing.

Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

arguskos
2011-05-24, 10:28 PM
Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?
Yes. See, the OP stated that only RUSSIA has done this. There's the rest of the world to shoot. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2011-05-24, 10:29 PM
Sonic weaponry? Incapacitates and such but leaves infrastructure intact and lets them have people intact for a nice, long torture session where they break them before using them as feed for some animal or another that they then use to feed schoolchildren.

Soylent Dave
2011-05-24, 10:33 PM
Yes. See, the OP stated that only RUSSIA has done this. There's the rest of the world to shoot. :smalltongue:

I was thinking more of the internal police force rather than their border guards, but then I had a better idea and edited my post a bit...

Jjeinn-tae
2011-05-24, 10:37 PM
Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

Ah, but a government of this size is going to be paranoid about that. Sure, no-one in their right mind would make the connection if they had never heard of a gun or violence, but to the government... A citizen finds a round, hey, didn't Old Man Henderson used to live around here, and then no one could find him? It would be the fear that they would make the impossible leap of logic, and be more on guard.

Sure it's not likely, but if they were only on guard against the likely, they would have never gotten where they did, to erase the rest of the world and violence from history in one generation. Though, since they are that effective, they must have something very easy for them to accomplish that abolishes that risk.

Codenpeg
2011-05-24, 10:46 PM
I dunno if it's legit, but there were bullets on an episode of Castle that dissolved in blood and water. I think they weren't as good of bullets, but they were effective enough at close range. Really though, if they're cleaning up the bodies, they're probably going to be fine cleaning up the bullets too.

Just watched this episode, was going to suggest the same thing. A sonic gun might work? Or a super electrical gun would work too, stop the heart. Poison is another favorite.

Soylent Dave
2011-05-24, 10:54 PM
A citizen finds a round, hey, didn't Old Man Henderson used to live around here, and then no one could find him? It would be the fear that they would make the impossible leap of logic, and be more on guard.

If it's a very 1984-esque setting, then most citizens would quickly doublethink themselves into realising that Old Man Henderson had never existed anyway...

You're right, though - that would take a hell of a lot of social engineering, over at least a couple of generations (so it depends on what exactly the OP is doing with the setting and the government, really).

Definitely sounds like it could be a fun campaign setting to play around with, though...

Toofey
2011-05-24, 11:40 PM
Flash blizards? Minor earthquakes?
Whatever you think would be most appropriate, from the govt making people think natural gas deposits (explosions) are more common than they actually are, all the way to a government that blames attacks by organized groups on aliens from another dimension that could strike at any time in any place (really just the secret police in helmets that look funny) to zombifying disease (maybe the govt actually has a virus for this)

It doesn't matter what it is, just that this group in power has the populace convinced and it's a reason to fear, and to cling to the state for support, while providing a cover for the state disposing of it's enemies.

Vorpalbob
2011-05-25, 02:25 AM
If it's a very 1984-esque setting, then most citizens would quickly doublethink themselves into realising that Old Man Henderson had never existed anyway...

You're right, though - that would take a hell of a lot of social engineering, over at least a couple of generations (so it depends on what exactly the OP is doing with the setting and the government, really).

Definitely sounds like it could be a fun campaign setting to play around with, though...

Worira! You might be playing this campaign, so no reading this! I will probably tell you most of this anyway, but there might be some spoilers!

I've rewritten history so that Russia (after this event, the word is banned and is known as The Country) annexes a bunch of countries in 1912, and the war to stop them lasts until the mid 1920s. At this point, they cordon off a swath of land on their borders and label it as Restricted. The military are mainly there to patrol the Restricted area, and kill anyone they find there, as well as deal with problems the civilian police (armed with batons at most) can't handle. It's been more than one generation, as I'm starting my game sometime between 2020 and 2050. (Tech levels will be at modern standards, due to WWII and the Cold war never happening, somewhat retarding scientific growth.)

The civilization structure is a mix of ideas borrowed from things like 1984, Fahrenheit 451, The Giver, and a few things I thought of while I was high. :smalltongue:

The outside world wants to regain contact with Russia, but need inside help to get through the nigh-impregnable defenses. That's what the Resistance (who the PCs will [hopefully] join) is attempting to do.

I'm liking a lot of your ideas, but here's the thing; These soldiers will need to stand up against modern-day armies. Any solution that would decrease the effectiveness of that Kalashnikov would make the person holding the Kalashnikov an insufficient defense, and the entire premise for this campaign falls apart.

Jan Mattys
2011-05-25, 02:51 AM
You're the GM. Your call. If I were you, I'd say that they had perfected the Ice Bullet that melts only minutes after being fired, yet magically doesn't when it's initially fired (As was seen in Mythbusters). But really, anything works.

Air Guns + ice bullets = dead people with no casing and no bullets around.

Mythbusters failed because they used ordinary guns with gunpowder-propelled bullets. That's not the way you do it if you use ice bullets.
:smallbiggrin:

Just_Ice
2011-05-25, 07:00 AM
Pinpoint radiation gun?

ILM
2011-05-25, 07:22 AM
High-powered flashball maybe? If it's not enough to kill, then a proper shot to the head once the target has been incapacitated - at least you don't risk missing, and the rubber flashballs should be inconspicuous enough (also, large enough to be policed).

Or go low-tech, use crossbows :smallbiggrin:.

I'm thinking more along the lines of ammunition that's easy to recover after an execution, but that could be a problem if they're doing long-range eliminations.

Luvia
2011-05-25, 09:01 AM
Yep - and if soldiers are cleaning up the mess anyway, they can be relied upon to get most of the errant rounds (with the remaining being unlikely to be discovered, and regarded as curiosities if they are (curiosities that don't exist if they're brought to the attention of the state, naturally...))

Also, in a world without violence, do the apparatchiks really need to equip their soldiers with guns to enforce the authority of the state?

They could probably effectively neutralise dissenters in melee - a world truly without violence means citizens who aren't really capable of fighting (so they're horribly, horribly outclassed when they encounter someone trained and equipped).

(soldiers with guns is just asking for a series of coups d'état in this sort of setting; of course that might be just the sort of behind-the-scenes conflict you want in your campaign!)

-
edit: going back to your original firearm question, depleted uranium rounds would make clean-up easier (they're easier to find due to being a bit more radioactive than the surrounding area).

The smallest DU rounds in the real world are 20mm (I think), but there isn't really any reason other than cost (and health risks) not to include them in small arms.

And Russia had around half a million tonnes of the stuff in 1996, so it's abundant enough in your setting...

Demolition Man:smallsmile:

Titanium Fox
2011-05-25, 10:00 AM
Personally I reccomend they use caseless frangible rounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangibility

The round will turn into a powder / dust, which will most likely be blown away eventually.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-25, 10:04 AM
How does the government explain things that would happen in the modern world like satellite overpasses?

Traab
2011-05-25, 11:08 AM
How does the government explain things that would happen in the modern world like satellite overpasses? How would they know that there are satellites in the first place? They could enforce a severe no fly zone over their nation and shoot down anyone who approaches their borders if its aircraft you worry about.

Accersitus
2011-05-25, 12:18 PM
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/mini-14-brass-catcher.aspx?a=92079 would be simple to take care of the casings, and for the bullets themselves, ice or any other version of disappearing bullet would work.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-25, 01:02 PM
How would they know that there are satellites in the first place? They could enforce a severe no fly zone over their nation and shoot down anyone who approaches their borders if its aircraft you worry about.Well, there is only so many planets and if you see something pass the sky at predictable intervals, very fast, or worse, a new one, you're going to start wondering.

eepop
2011-05-25, 02:52 PM
"Any solution that would decrease the effectiveness of that Kalashnikov would make the person holding the Kalashnikov an insufficient defense, and the entire premise for this campaign falls apart. "

AKs haven't really changed much in our world since they were originally invented. But in the world you are outlining, its not outlandish to think that they made some modifications to allow more flexibility based on what magazines are used.

I have a Saiga shotgun (designed by the designer of the AK) and its more than capable of firing a wide variety of different kinds of rounds.

Given the task by his country, I'm sure Mikhail Kalashnikov would have been more than capable of designing an AK 47 that could accommodate its normal magazines of bullets and magazines of whatever ammunition you deem is necessary for internal operations.

Then all it takes to go from one task to the other is popping out one mag and clicking a new one in.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-25, 03:25 PM
I know this is fantasy, but ice bullets don't work so well. Mythbusters tested them and they don't penetrate so well, if they don't shatter upon been fired. Same with meat-sicle bullets.

Coidzor
2011-05-25, 04:57 PM
Well, there is only so many planets and if you see something pass the sky at predictable intervals, very fast, or worse, a new one, you're going to start wondering.

When you have absolute control of astronomy, you can have people believe a whole heck of a lot, I imagine.

Vorpalbob
2011-05-25, 06:01 PM
Given the task by his country, I'm sure Mikhail Kalashnikov would have been more than capable of designing an AK 47 that could accommodate its normal magazines of bullets and magazines of whatever ammunition you deem is necessary for internal operations.

Then all it takes to go from one task to the other is popping out one mag and clicking a new one in.

This could actually work. My worry was that the alternative rounds would not be as lethal as a generic slug, which the outside world armies would be using. If soldiers carry multiple types of ammunition... Yeeeees, that will do nicely. :xykon:

Still haven't decided what the alternative rounds will be, though I like Titanium Fox's suggestion of frangible rounds. Also, it's fun to say. :smalltongue:Fraaangible. Frangibible. Frounge.

dps
2011-05-25, 06:26 PM
You want secrecy, and real-world physics, forget firearms. Silencers don't actually work, so you'll always have the problem of someone hearing a shot to worry about. Instead, your state's forces should use poision needles fired from air guns. The air guns could be disguised as umbrellas or the like, and the needles could look just like ordinary sewing needles, so that if someone found one that had missed its target, well, they'd just think that someone had lost some sewing equipment. The poison could be something that degrades quickly once the needle is fired, so those missed shots would cause any suspicious "collateral" deaths (unless you want to cause them, heh). Even better, if there are times you want to use non-lethal force, you can have needles that are treated with a poison that causes unconsciousness in stead of death (again, if that's something you'd like to have in your setting).

Jornophelanthas
2011-05-26, 10:37 AM
@Vorpalbob:

Why do you insist on thinking up a weapon that is BOTH undetectable AND just as deadly as regular firearms? The Party only needs weapons for situations that require EITHER non-detection OR deadly power to match Outside.

Instead, I suggest you consider two separate military services:

1. The Secret Police.
Give these guys the innovatively undetectable weapons. They don't need to be as deadly as regular guns, though, since they'll only be deployed inside The Country, to monitor the ignorant population and remove any threats to tranquility.
Of course, the Secret Police is entirely ineffective against regular firearms, but as long as they operate only within The Country, they should function just fine. (And they could have a hidden arsenal of very-much-detectable high-tech deadly torture gadgets inside their secret underground compounds to be used for questioning prisoners, that could be used to quell a civil uprising in a pinch - should the PCs manage to incite one.)

2. The Borderguard Army.
No need for stealth or undetectable weapons here, as they only serve to keep out any trespassers from the Border Areas. If these tresspassers are Outsiders, they should be killed for attempting an invasion. If the tresspassers are Countrymen civilians, they should be killed for trespassing anyway. So why use anything but regular deadly weapons here? (Also, there is no reason they shouldn't have tanks, airplanes, submarines, heavy artillery or rocket missiles, as these would only be used on the Outside anyway.)
Of course, the Borderguard Army should NEVER EVER show itself in civilian areas deeper inside The Country, as their existence is totally unknown to said civilians.

This split has the additional benefit of introducing a progression of difficulty in any combat the players might engage in:

1. At first, you may pit the players against the Secret Police (who have stealthy-but-inferior weapons) first, making for a relatively easy challenge.

2. As the players progress, they might wander into the Border Areas, where they will encounter (and fight?) the much more deadly Borderguard Army.

3. Going further, they may leave The Country and encounter any Outside forces (which may or may not be hostile), which could be more dangerous than the Borderguard Army (perhaps due to different training or exotic equipment or anything you can think of, really. The rest of the world is a big place).

4. Finally, if they return to the heart of The Country and actively threaten the Party rule, the Secret Police will start using their extremely high-tech torture gadgets in combat against the players. They've become major enemies of the state by then, so secrecy no longer outweighs their deaths. In fact, you could foreshadow this by introducing/showing a few of these gadgets early on in the campaign, when the players first learn of the Secret Police existing.

I hope this helps.

Shadowknight12
2011-05-26, 10:48 AM
Even if you can make the perfect untraceable bullets, it's still too easy to say "murder" because the act of shooting the person can still be witnessed. What I would personally do, is to train the military in hand to hand combat. No guns of any kind. The military is made up of strong people who are well versed in the arts of infiltration and disguise. If someone needs to be eliminated, they suffer an accident. No, really, they do. They fall down flights of stairs, slip in the shower, they fall into strong currents and drown, they mistakenly take too much medication, their house catches fire in their sleep, they get a tragic heart attack or perhaps an aneurysm, you get the idea.

You won't have high-action shoot-outs, though. In a society such as this one, not having guns at all would make the most sense, and that precludes gunfights.

Story Time
2011-06-21, 07:27 AM
...having some experience in the field of fire-arms there is only one option which is tactical, reasonable, simple, and cheap. This is for VorpalBob to read and not his players:



The first part of it is a brass catcher which is lined with a noise absorbing material for catching ejected cartridges. This accessory would work for every branch of military and police for The Country. The second, and more important option, is a solid core bullet of some magnetized material. The secret police sweeper teams would employ a long rod with a switch which enables it as an electro-magnet. This would remove the non-fragmenting bullets from most any biological material and allow them to be re-formed and re-used.

The Wand-man in the team would carry a sack lined with velvet on the inside to drop the recovered bullets in if they wanted to get really fancy.

Also, I would suggest Men-In-Black style tools for Secret Police's deniability. These would be the Neuralizer and some resistant form of face-enclosing eye-wear. Open-seam glasses would be too dangerous to use with such a device.

panaikhan
2011-06-21, 07:43 AM
if the internal security 'scuffles' are relatively close-quarters, how about tight-focussed microwave beams? no 'hole', no blood to speak of, no noise(?), no 'bullets', no casings, just old man Henderson dying of a heart attack (because someone deep-fried it from 30ft away)

Chilingsworth
2011-06-21, 01:33 PM
One question: If your civilians are kept in the dark about the military, where do its members come from?

Vauron
2011-06-23, 12:20 AM
One question: If your civilians are kept in the dark about the military, where do its members come from?

Perhaps the descendants of those already in the military, people born in the Borderzone, or those who start to note the masquerade are conscripted and sent far away from what they knew?